Hey guys, I'm Kate Maxx.
You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more.
After those runs, the conversations keep going.
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Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry sitting in for Dave.
Let's get started with The Wave.
I am glad you did this.
I was kind of curious about the origins of the old wave.
Oh yeah? I don't know what you mean, yeah.
It's now kind of all over the world in various places, but it started out as an American thing that people would do in the stands at sports games where one bit at a time and all around the whole stadium, people would stand up and raise their arms up over their head, and if you look at it as it goes
around the stadium, it looks like a wave is moving across the fans.
Yeah, because after they raised their arms over their head standing up, they would sit back down and the next section would do it, and it would just move seamlessly when done correctly.
For my money, it's one of the best things that could ever happen to you is to be in a really good wave.
Oh my God, I find them so thrilling.
I was really surprised to find that some people not only hate the wave, they're like, they denigrate people who like the wave or who do the wave.
Okay. Don't get it.
What do you think about the wave?
I was afraid you were gonna ask me that.
I knew it. I'm not a waver, per se.
I don't bemoan it. I'm not one of these people that's like, there's a game going on, blah, blah, blah.
Nothing like that. I got to a certain point where I like, I don't wanna just stand up and throw my arms in the air and wave them like I just don't care.
Sometimes, if I'm in the right mood, and this is so lazy, I won't stand up, but I'll throw my arms up just to be kind of a good sport.
I've seen that, sure.
And now that Ruby is old enough to go to sporting events, I will of course do full wave participant because that's something like a kid would really enjoy.
I'm not gonna rain on her parade.
Yeah, and now that I think about it, I might like the wave so much because I haven't done it since I was a kid essentially, so.
They didn't do it at the Wrigley Field.
We went through the Cubs game together and I don't think there was a wave, was there?
No, they didn't. And Chuck, I was watching videos of waves today.
They are a sorry shadow of their former self.
If you wanna see a good wave, I found a video called The Wave at Michigan Stadium, 1984.
That's a wave. The wave that we used to do it in the 80s.
So go check that video out and you'll be like, wow, that's a pretty good wave.
Wave Michigan Stadium, huh?
Yep, 1984, don't forget that part.
So as wholesome as I think the wave is, it turns out there's actually like a fair bit of controversy around it, specifically around who invented the wave.
And what's mind boggling is there's two people who claim to have invented it and they seem to have independently come up with it or debuted it within two weeks of one another.
Isn't that nuts? Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty crazy story and crazy being the key word here because crazy with the K, George Henderson, is our first entrance into the wave invention sweepstakes because he was a San Jose state cheerleader who graduated college, I guess.
And this was in the 1970s and then was just sort of a freelance cheerleader for different pro teams.
And was working in A's game on October 15th, 1981, a baseball game for the Oakland Athletics, playing the Yankees in Oakland and you can watch this on YouTube, footage from that game where Crazy George has a drum and he gets fans to do a version of the wave.
In this version though, it's sort of one section goes and then the next section goes, whereas a true wave is just a continuous sort of motion and sections be damned.
Yeah, it's much more fluid but there are a couple of points in that footage of that first wave in 1981 and October 15th where they're going fast enough that it seems like they're, it does look like a wave for a second but I get what you're saying.
It's not what he was doing, right?
Yeah, so it was a version, it was a proto wave.
Yeah, it was a proto wave but Crazy George Henderson says, no, this was the wave.
I've been working on this for years before that game in Oakland.
He used to be a professional cheerleader at the Colorado Rockies NHL franchise games in Denver back in the late 70s.
And he started coming up with the wave there but there were so few people at those games it didn't really amount to very much.
And also these games weren't very well covered so he never got people to do the wave in any substantial way on camera.
It wasn't until that Oakland A's game that he was able to document it on camera, posted it on the internet and was like, ipso facto, I created the wave.
That's right, and if, stop your email now if you're thinking Josh, Josh, the Colorado Rockies are a baseball team that weren't even around in the 70s that was an NHL franchise first and they would eventually become the New Jersey Devils.
I had it right. You had it right.
The second entrant into the wave sweepstakes is a guy named Rob Weller.
He's from Tacoma, Washington and was, this is so great.
He was known as the yell king, aka the greatest cheerleader in UW history.
So he would go on to host Entertainment Tonight in the early 80s so I was a big fan because I was a little 10 -year -old that loved Entertainment Tonight.
Do you remember him?
Oh yeah. Oh really, okay, cool.
Oh dude, I watched Entertainment Tonight every night.
I remember when it debuted, I was so excited.
That's really funny.
Because it was like movie news and that's all I cared about.
But he called his, and I'm surprised this didn't, frankly I'm surprised this didn't stick, he called it the expandable cheer.
He had like the right idea at first he was just going the wrong way.
So he did the wave, he had people do the wave but it was section by section and it would go from bottom to top.
Yeah. So at this one game on Halloween, 1981, two weeks after that Oakland A's game, he was having people do the expandable cheer and at halftime, the band director, Bill Bissell, came over and said, hey, let me ask you something, have you ever thought about taking that expandable wave and sending it
outward rather than upward?
You're expanding the wrong way.
Rob Weller picked his jaw off the ground, hugged Bill Bissell, tighter than he's ever hugged anybody else in his life and set about starting the wave.
That's right, and maybe we should take a break here and talk about the fight that ensued right after this.
Hey guys, I'm Kate Max.
You might know me from my popular online series, the Running Interview show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more.
After those runs, the conversations keep going.
That's what my podcast, Post -Run High, is all about.
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Okay, so these two guys both lay claim to the wave.
They have thought about it in a very childish manner over the years.
I think it's fairly tongue -in -cheek.
It's gotta be. I don't know.
You don't think so?
I don't know. It's possible, but it's also possible that it's not really all that tongue -in -cheek.
Okay, well Bissell, the band director that you mentioned before, that expanded it outward with Weller's consent, says, well first of all, that other wave, it's not a true oval.
That was a baseball stadium.
It's a diamond, and so that doesn't count.
I throw water all over that argument because you could do a wave in a square room.
You could do it in a, yeah, a literal square room as long as you kept that motion constant.
Right. He also pointed out that...
So, poo -poo on that.
Sure. His second point was that it was nothing more than a stand -up cheer, section by section.
Right? He's got a point there.
He definitely has a point there.
He goes on to say, in the press, as far as I'm concerned, Crazy George can climb a pole and sit on it, which is an awful thing to say because if you've ever seen the victims of Vlod the Impaler, that's not a pleasant way to go.
Oh, he meant to be impaled?
No, but he didn't think it through.
He didn't think about the consequences.
Bill Bissell didn't.
Yeah. By the mid -1980s, the wave had really caught on though, no matter who invented it.
Every stadium had their own version.
It might have a special name, I believe Michigan that you talked about, had what was called the silent wave.
It was some places they would jingle their car keys, stuff like that.
Sometimes it got really creative and the waves would go around opposite each other and meet in the middle.
That's awesome. But this is about when people started saying, this thing is sort of disrupting my enjoyment of the game a little bit.
Yeah, just real quick, can't you see somebody doing a jingling car keys wave, like stand up and they don't have any keys?
And they sit down and they're like, I really need to get a car.
Yeah, or the key fob just doesn't do the same thing.
Right. So what was this 1984 that it really kind of spread in just a few years?
Yeah. That was in America in the United States, I should say.
For the rest of the world, if you're talking about the wave, you might be listening and being like, I think I know what they're talking about.
We don't call it the wave, we call it the Mexican wave.
And that's true. The rest of the world outside of the United States calls the Mexican wave, and there's a really good reason why.
That's right, because it started in Mexico.
That's right. Specifically.
Or it was spread internationally in Mexico rather.
Yeah, so it started in the United States and it spread like a wave down to Mexico.
And Mexico hosted the World Cup in 1986 and by this time, the people of Mexico had been doing the wave for years.
And during a game, they did the wave and the world was just taken aback and fell in love with the wave.
And still today, you can see football games, meaning soccer, where people are doing the wave.
They love it. Yeah.
But they call it the Mexican wave.
That's right. And if you're sitting at home thinking, guys, this is pretty good.
I know a little history here, but I mean, you guys usually dig into the science of things.
Sure. Surely, there's been a scientific studies about the wave, right?
Yeah. Believe it or not, there have been.
In 2002, there was some physicists from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences that built computer models analyzing lots and lots of waves at sporting events.
They actually released this in Nature, the periodical Nature, very respected.
And NPR reported on it and they had three key parameters that they kind of looked at, which was the distance between the sports goers, how many neighbors that an audience member, an audience member, that's a weird way to say somebody at a football game.
Sure. Whatever. Yeah.
How many neighbors that you could see?
And then the readiness or probability of an individual to start standing up, assuming others nearby are already standing.
What in the world does that even mean?
It's saying whether the person involved is a grump or not.
How many grumps do you have in the stands, essentially?
Right. Interestingly, out of all this, I think the most interesting part is that they narrowed it down to like 20 or 30 people is all it takes to start a wave.
Yeah. Not only that, they roll clockwise almost invariably.
And they move at a speed of about 20 seats per second, these scientists figured out.
But yeah, that's not very many people to start a wave, especially if the crowd's in a good mood.
And that's a really important point.
If you start a wave at a critical moment in a game, you're going to get shouted at, even by people who like the wave, because that is the wrong time to do it.
There's a time for the wave, and there's a time for not the wave.
I'm just trying to picture bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded.
And the guy's like, come on, everybody.
Yeah. Let's give them a wave.
It's like, yeah, you're not supposed to do it.
Do it when it's a little boring and the crowd needs, everyone's drinking a little bit.
Everyone's having a good time.
Maybe they're a little bored.
Maybe they're up seven to nothing in a baseball game at the home field.
And so people are like, well, let's do something.
That's a great time to start the wave.
I've never started a wave.
I've been a part of the saddest thing, is when someone attempts to start the wave and it just doesn't happen.
It's a very shameful sit down.
Yeah. It is. It's like being the one person to start the standing ovation and no one else liked the show as much as they did.
Yeah. The great comedian Gary Gullman talks about standing ovations and he's like, you're going to be standing in a minute to leave anyway.
You might as well. Right.
Exactly. So there are people out there who are like, I don't like the wave.
I don't like it. If we're up seven to nothing, I don't like it.
If it's a boring game, people need to be paying attention to the game.
And if you are into the wave, you're not a real sports fan.
Some people think like that, right?
Announcers, you'll hear announcers get grumpy about it sometimes.
So yeah. Some people who don't like it say that it detracts focus from the game.
Other people are like, if you do it at the wrong time, you could cost the home team the game.
No, come on. I think the chances of that are pretty slim.
But those things have enough momentum that there is a website called StopTheWave .net, which is now a Facebook group and Tumblr.
The Texas Rangers on their scoreboard, they had a message back in 2022 that said that fans participating in the wave risk pulled muscles and that children found doing it will be sold to the circus.
That's not funny. And even Weller, Rob Weller, your friend from Entertainment Tonight, he turned on his own creation, if he was actually the creator, he was going to start a StopTheWave movement with bumper stickers and everything.
And then he stopped himself.
He realized like people still like it.
It brings people joy.
Who am I to try to get people to stop doing it?
That's right. And he's a great man.
He's no John Teix. But I say keep the wave going, even though I'm not the most enthusiastic waiver.
And stop that Tomahawk chop Atlanta Braves and Kansas City Chiefs and Florida State Seminoles.
Yeah, that's as pernicious as kudzu.
Do the wave instead.
That's it for Short Stuff, everybody.
Short Stuff is out.
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