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I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid. Give us more morbid. Do it. This is a full length.
Big old morbid. Huge. It's pretty big. So this is going to be part three of our West Memphis 3 series.
And guess what? Not the final part. This is not the end, guys.
It's going to be a four-parter. I just can't make it three.
I feel like I will be cheating you all of details and intrigue and little tidbits if I try to shove it all into three.
And I feel like there's so much. This is going to focus on the trial today in part three.
And I feel like there's so much in the trial that I just can't skip through it.
I also feel like I'm going to be sobbing by the end of this episode.
It's pretty hard. But I think in four, we're going to go more into like...
You know their prison terms the Alford plea that got them out of jail or out of prison and also in between like all the people who rallied for them, like all everybody who got together to get them out of jail.
So I want to like really concentrate on that and then talk about other evidence that came to light afterwards.
So I feel like that deserves its own episode.
So we're getting another episode after this.
You're welcome. That'll be the conclusion.
So I hope you guys are digging this because it's not ending.
Well, before we get to part three of the West Memphis Three case, we do need to fill you in on our live shows because we just have to.
And because they are not canceled yet. Guys, fingers fucking crossed.
We haven't heard anything yet. Nope. So everybody just, you know, hold on tight.
Cross your fingers all together. Punch COVID-19 in the face and tell it you want to come to our live show. your fingers wash your fucking hands yeah everybody keep washing those hands yeah wash your damn hands and don't go out social distance okay Just give it a couple weeks.
I have a feeling most of our listeners are like us, and they probably already are practicing social distance.
I think you are like us. I practice social distance on a regular basis.
But keep doing that. And you know, a couple weeks, guys, we're going to flatten this curve.
We're going to get past it. It's going to be great.
Everybody's just got to hunker down. Hunker down.
Watch a movie. Wash your hands. So April 14th we're going to be at. the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia.
Philly Liberty Bell. April 15th, we're going to be at the DC Improv in Washington, D.C., and now Alayna's going to go Monuments.
So many monuments. Then the April 23rd will be at the Death Becomes Us Festival.
It's going to be so fun. It's going to happen.
I know it. Guys, I want to come to the Death Becomes Us Festival.
I want it so bad. Get your tickets for it.
It's going to be awesome. And that's at the Gramercy Theatre in New York City, New York.
So fun. May 6th, Stand Up Live, Huntsville, Alabama.
Alabama, you're in May, so it's looking good.
Yeah, looking good. It's looking good, May.
May 7th, we have two shows at Zany's. One's early, one's late.
Let's get it. I think Nashville, I think we're going to see you.
I really do. I feel it. I want to see all of you.
It's making me so sad that there's possibilities of cancellations.
I know. Oh, and I'm trying to put it into the universe.
It's not. It's not. We're good. June 2nd, Good Night's Comedy Club in Rome.
Raleigh North Carolina Raleigh we're totally gonna see you I just feel it my bones if they cancel a show on the fucking week of my birth Let me tell you, coronavirus, we're going to have more problems than we already do.
COVID-19 is shaking in its cells. Yeah. June 3rd, the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Charlotte, we're coming for you. June 11th.
I believe there's still some tickets lying around for this.
So get your tickets. That is our show, Talia Hall in Chicago.
Oh, come on, Chi-Town. It's going to be awesome.
And here's my guilt trip. We added this show because a lot of you said that you... didn't get tickets in time so we added this show and we'd like to sell it out so scoop up the last remaining tickets so we have two sold out shows go scoop them up please The next day, we're going to be at Telly Hall again, June 12th, Chicago.
Sold out. We're going to see you. July 8th.
Comedy Works South in Greenwood Village, Colorado.
Colorado. Colorado is so beautiful. I'm so excited.
Have you ever been to Colorado? I have not.
You're going to think it's gorgeous. I think I've been to the airport, but I haven't been.
The airport is spooky as fuck. We could literally cover that in an episode.
We probably could. And then July 11th, we're just going to stay home.
Like I said, maybe we'll head to the Wilbur because we do have a show there.
And speaking of that, Go buy tickets to the Wilbur guys.
If I know you and you don't have tickets yet.
Yeah. Honey, I don't know why you're not on the website.
There's tickets available for the whale bear.
We want to pack that place with all kinds of amazing, beautiful faces.
We're going to make that show extravagant.
We are in the stars. comic stylings of Emily Walsh are at that show so get your butt into it go buy tickets there's a ladybug in this room i feel like that is good juju so go buy tickets to the wilbur everybody i'm telling you it's gonna be awesome Okay, without further ado, let's get into the case-ity case.
Let's do this. Make me cry. All right, so...
Now we left off Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Muskelly were arrested and charged with three counts of capital murder for the brutal deaths of Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch.
Three eight-year-old... little Boy Scouts just hanging out on their bikes.
They were just going to Robin Hood Hills.
The worst part about this whole case... and I'm just going to keep on saying it, is that these little boys, I fear that they will never get justice.
And it really bums me out. Yeah. It really bums me out.
So at this point, they have arrested the three boys based on Jesse's confession.
If you can even call it that. Which if you don't know what I'm talking about, go back to part two and go listen to that because wowzers.
Buh. So at this point, the police are still talking to Aaron Hutchinson.
Aaron Hutchinson is Vicki Hutchinson's eight-year-old son.
Right. Vicki Hutchinson is the one that... made up that story about the spot lied under i was working with jerry driver she hasn't lied under oath yet oh yeah but she's gonna she's gonna lie spoiler alert I think we said that last episode.
But she's been working with Jerry Driver and the police.
And she was the one who came out later and said...
The police and Jerry Driver made me do that.
They made me make up this story. I mean, I believe that she did it.
So. She was probably scared. But also not cool at all.
But yeah, so they kind of she said they threatened her saying they were going to have her child taken away, so... That's awful.
It all sucks. But her child, Aaron Hutchinson... eight years old, the same age as the victims, was friends with the victims, the police are still pressing him for information.
I'm like, he's eight. What does he have to contribute here?
He's eight years old. Like, eight years old.
And they are... at eight-year-olds like ready look at the eight-year-old in your life if you have one now does that eight-year-old understand the ramifications of a capital murder trial no probably not so if a police officers are sitting there telling him we need information only you can give us information erin you can be a hero you can tell us what this Of course an eight-year-old little boy is going to want to please the police.
Right. And once he sees that the police are giving him positive reactions to him telling them things...
He's going to keep going. He starts coming up with things and he doesn't understand that this is the worst thing that he could possibly do.
Like, he doesn't get it. Right. So... By the way, Aaron, later in life, Vicky, his mother, said that he was... fucked up from this oh no and she said the one thing she regret i mean she regrets a lot about this whole thing obviously But she said the biggest thing she regrets is the psychological damage that Aaron, like the toll it took on him.
Yeah, I mean, of course, he's fucking eight years old.
He really was. And so he said... He finally told the police.
He told the police many different tales.
Very, very intricate, eight-year-old imagination tales.
He then told the police, you know what? I've seen Jason, Damien, and Jesse in the woods.
Like, do in a spot things. Oh. Like. Have you?
At eight years old, he's even telling me.
Telling them like I saw these men in the woods with them.
And they were doing Satan things. They were singing Satan songs.
What does a Satan song sound like? You know Satan songs?
No. No, I don't. Can't say I do. You know those Satan songs that are just like, hey.
Well, they play backwards. Oh, sorry. That's what it is.
That's what they were doing. They were playing... rock music backwards metallica backwards exactly pink floyd backwards while watching the wizard of oz In the woods.
There you go. It was really intense. It actually sounds like a party.
Well, he was saying he saw this and then he goes, you know what?
I actually saw Jason, Damien, and Jesse murder Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch.
Did you? And you're not more fucked up from that.
He totally did. Okay. So he said, when I saw them, they were wearing black shirts with dragons on them.
Oh, okay. because we all know that the most vital part of a ritualistic killing in the woods in the name of Satan matching team tees duh you can't get that shit done without getting your graphic tees all matching so tomorrow we're gonna murder make sure you're wearing the shirt no ritualistic murder without team t's okay just saying uniform is important check um so the police were like Cool, cool, cool.
This is real evidence. Keep going. Tell us more.
We're going to use this, Erin. And they were like 100%.
And they did. They took this as like real.
This is real. Interesting. They were like, if you talk to, if you heard anything from them, they were like, well, this little boy saw it.
And it's like, are you fucking kidding me right now?
He definitely did. So they ended up not using Aaron at the last second.
Because his stories kept changing. Because he's eight and lying.
So weird. And weirder still, they kept becoming more and more just crazy and improbable.
I wonder why. Seriously. He said at one point.
That he, eight-year-old Aaron, had personally... dismembered Christopher Byers.
Oh, he said that? And he said a black man held a gun to his head and made him do it.
Okay, this little boy definitely sounds like he might have been experiencing... Oh, some things were going... I mean, I'm not here to, like, say anything was happening to him, but, like...
Something was happening to him. Well, something was happening to him at that point for sure.
I mean, like for him, psychologically, there was some shit going on.
An eight-year-old doesn't just come up with that.
So that was fucked up. Jesus. So after that, I think the police were like, yeah, I don't think we can use him.
Also, we'd like to provide you some counseling.
Like, perhaps. So remember, speaking of that, that whole thing, remember when I said, and I think it was the last episode. that people spread a rumor that Christopher Byer's testicles were found in Damien's room in a glass jar.
Oh. In that John Mark Byers, Christopher Byers' stepfather, actually stated it as fact after hearing it.
Literally stated it as fact and you want to know how I know this because in the documentary he literally says it to the camera and And he says it in disbelief like, they found my son's testicles in a glass jar in Damien's room.
And it had his fingerprints all over it.
And they're like, he's like, how is he not behind bars?
And it's like, because they didn't find that.
This man truly believes that they found, like, that's what I'm talking about with these rumors, especially about Damien.
Right. When it came to Damien, whatever rumors were out there, boom, true.
Nobody questioned it. Always true. I mean when the father of one of the victims is sitting there saying this rumor, this fantastical rumor as fact.
Right. Like, are you honestly sitting there, John Mark Byers, and thinking that your, like, poor son's, like... body parts are in this kid's room and he's just not arrested yet and that there just is not we still don't have enough evidence like no That's enough to land you somewhere.
And that's how crazy and hysterical, this is the hysteria that came with this.
Right. Because everybody believed that stuff.
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So June 7th, 1993, the three got public defenders because obviously they had to be able to pay for lawyers.
So Jason got Paul Ford and Robin Wadley.
Damien got Val Price and Scott Davidson.
And Jesse got Dan Stidham and Greg Crowe.
Dan Stidham is a fucking treasure. He makes me want to cry.
That guy stuck with Jesse until the whole entire way until the very end.
And he went through like 10. tireless efforts to and what's crazy is dan stidham originally went into this thinking jesse was guilty oh wow he went into it thinking okay i have a guilty client here my only job is to get him a plea deal is to get him out of, you know, just to make sure we get this less sentence as we can.
That's what he was going in here thinking.
Then after seeing everything and speaking to Jesse, he's like, no.
Oh, wait a second. And he was like, this is not right.
And all of a sudden he was like, there's more to this.
I'm going to need to do a lot more work.
I can't just go for a plea deal. I need to make sure people know he's innocent.
And he doesn't land himself in jail. One of the things that was really showing him that this was not how it seemed was he said every time he asked Jesse, he asked him several times, please tell me the story again and Jesse would tell him the story and it was totally different from the story before that right he could didn't repeat the same confession twice because it didn't happen if you're lying it's hard to repeat the same thing twice if it actually happened It's easy.
Right. It's a narrative. It's a memory. Exactly.
Now. damien read jesse's confession himself and when he was when after he was arraigned once he found out that jesse had confessed he was probably like what the He was given this stack of papers and he was told to read it.
So he read through it and he said he read the whole thing and he was like, what the fuck?
But he says in his book quote I've been asked many times if I'm angry with Jesse for accusing me.
The answer is no. Yep. So that shows how even at that time, he said he wasn't even mad at the time.
He was more... confused and frustrated right and he was like but everyone knew this wasn't real yeah anyone who looked at that confession was like what It just doesn't make any sense.
And we had discussed at length in the last episode how Jesse was not mentally fit to be interrogated in the way that he was. and that his statements were conflicting flat out wrong and very much led by the police The amount of times that they stopped and put on and then stopped and then put on the recorder.
I think it was something like eight different times to get him to the correct time.
And it was what like it even occurred. It was an eight hour.
Yeah, it was. He was interrogated for like 11 hours.
And they only had so much. They only had like 34 minutes.
Right. On the tape. That's ridiculous. It was ridiculous.
And no one heard how he was prepped beforehand, what they discussed beforehand.
Because they kept stopping that tape. Well, and it gets crazy.
So and remember, they pretended that they didn't know that he was mentally challenged.
Right. And meanwhile, in the middle of the confession, when they speak about Chris Byers' genital mutilation, They ask him several times, do you know what a penis is?
Which it's like, why would you ask that?
Like, you definitely know. if you would never ask someone that you thought had an iq of like a highly functioning right person That you would never ask, do you know what a penis is to a 17 year old boy?
Right. Unless you knew that he was slightly, you know, mentally challenged.
Exactly. Well, let's add on to this something really shitty.
You told me that this was going to make me sad.
Yeah. So... He Jesse didn't know in 1994.
He did not know who Bill Clinton was. oh now bill clinton had been governor of arkansas right and was a huge deal because uh He was president of the United States at the time.
How did it come out that he didn't know who Bill Clinton was?
Well, it was just a huge deal in Arkansas.
That the governor of Arkansas had become the president of the United States was a big deal.
Everybody knew who Bill Clinton was. Jesse didn't. okay it did this isn't like this doesn't like factor into the case it's just um it It shows that he was 17 years old and he did not know who the president of the United States was when the president of the United States was the governor of his state.
Right. Like. That should show you where he's sitting.
Also, he didn't know what a lawyer did. Oh.
He thought lawyers were police officers.
Oh my god. Or like detectives. He didn't understand.
This makes me so sad. Also, and this one really gets you.
Oh god. So Dan Stidham said he was, or Dan Stidham, excuse me, said he was visiting Jesse in prison because he obviously when you're someone's lawyer, you're going to visit them all the time to go over things.
Right. And suddenly, one time when he was visiting him, Jesse said, can you tell me who Satin is?
And he was like, what? He was like, what satin is?
And he was like... He meant Satan. He was like, satin is like a fabric.
Like, what are you talking about? And Jesse showed him a pamphlet given to him by some preacher.
And it warned against the dangers of Satan.
Right. Jesse didn't know who Satan was and he was being touted as a devil-worshipping criminal mastermind.
Right. He didn't know what Satan was. Oh my God.
Like I think he had probably heard the word. but didn't know he couldn't even read it or connect it with anything so clearly he's not a devil worshipper who's satin Aww.
Like, hello, everybody. Right. So... The characters we are going to mention in this that I just want to say up front just because there's a lot of names in here.
Dan Stidham, Jesse's lawyer. John Fogelman is one of the lawyers for the prosecution.
Judge David Burnett, who is a flaming asshole.
Terry Hobbs, we're not going to mention him really in this part.
We'll mention him in the next part. He's the stepfather of Stephen Branch.
And then there's Chief Inspector Gary Gitchell.
And there's going to be a couple more along the way, but I'll tell you who they are.
So August 4th, 1994 was the pre-trial hearing.
This is when they all pled not guilty. Judge David Burnett, who was the dick of the century and was the one. who was on this case, which we'll get into too in part four, till the end, like, held up every appeal, everything.
He oversaw... He made sure that no new evidence later in this whole case, he made sure no new evidence that would ever exonerate them was let into the trial.
Which is the most, like, how is that? That's not legal.
No, it shouldn't be. He also believed that psychologists had no business being part of trials.
Oh. He did not believe in psychologists.
But wait until you do find out what he believes in.
And he went into this completely convinced from the jump.
They were all devil-worshipping heathens who needed to be behind bars.
He went into this being like, they're guilty.
Let's do this. I don't know if this is true or not, but as a judge, you're supposed to be impartial, correct?
Yes, absolutely. Cool. I was like, maybe someone's going to yell at me, but I'm pretty sure from what I've heard, they're supposed to be a marshal.
It's definitely ideal that you go in without any preconceived biases.
They won't even let the jury be. but yeah but this guy i mean he didn't come out and no but obviously like it's not like he walked out and sat down and put on his robe and was like well fuck these devil worshipping dickheads he was just like but he might as well have but he might as well have and I'm sure the jury probably was the same way Oh yeah, and that's the thing.
So this is when Judge Burnett At this point, after the pre-trial hearing, he severed Jesse's trial from Jason and Damien's. so Jesse was going to have his own trial and Jason and Damien were going to have a trial together So but he wasn't.
So when that happened, they were like, OK, well, let's separate Damien and Jason too.
He would not allow this. So that meant that anything people said about Damien, which was a lot, as we know, that was going to be said during Jason's trial too.
So he wasn't going to be given a fair trial because he was going to be lumped in with all of this. i'm not i don't believe that any like 99 of the things they say about damien i don't believe it's true i think it's all just him like portraying a spooky kid like And being different.
Which, let me be clear, Damien leaned into the spooky... goth everyone scared of me thing right a little too much yeah he was 17 years old he was a rebel and he was thinking I didn't do this.
They can't pin it on me if I didn't do it.
So I'm just going to have fun with this.
Whatever. I don't give a shit. He was a little asshole at the time, like, for sure.
Yeah. And I'm sure at this point, Damien Echols would probably be like, yeah, I didn't give a shit.
But that doesn't make him a murderer. That just makes him a cocky little... shit and it's like but you know like i think even he would agree that he probably said some things and actually Actually, in interviews later, he was like, there was some things that I'm like, what the fuck?
Why did I say that? Well, yeah, but you're 17 years old.
I said. Yeah. Crazy shit at 17 years old.
And he went through his whole life as the weird poor kid.
Right. And he created this defense mechanism where he saw I could keep I could social distance people by by just being spooky.
Scaring the shit out of people and whatever they would say, I would just say, yep, I did it because it's easier than trying to defend myself.
Exactly. to convince people i'm not this person and it's just like yeah cool you're that stupid totally you just go with it you start going with all the rumors because it's just easier you're like fuck it um so so again this meant that anything that was said in the trial about damien was automatically going to be pinned on jason too and that's not fair now remember jason and damien are 17 years old they both did not believe that this was really going to end with them going to jail right because they said In fact, Jason and I had a clip.
I'll have to see if I can find it. There is a clip of him where he says, like, I believe in God.
Like, I... I believe in God and his whole thing when he said it later that this whole thing really shook his faith.
Of course. Because he said this entire time.
The reason I was kind of... We were just kind of like, whatever about it.
He said, I believed that God would not allow... something like this a miscarriage of justice like this like my god the god that we all that they all believed in right He was like, everyone in that courtroom was yelling about Satan and all that and saying, they're God.
We all believed in the same God. and he's like I believed that my God would not allow me to be put behind bars for something I didn't do and so then when it happened he was like whoa And that's why they were so cavalier, because they both were just like, whatever.
But Jason in particular was like very vocal about like, I believe in God.
Yeah. Which is crazy. Since they were portraying him as this devil worshiper.
Exactly. It was the exact opposite. So Damien was held in Monroe County Jail.
He was later transferred, but he did not have a good time in there.
Damien had a real rough time of prison. all the way through it's so awful to hear about yeah especially when you know it's you know what most people believe is an innocent man Right.
Being basically tortured. So we mentioned in last episode that his girlfriend, Dominique Teer, was pregnant.
Which is so sad. With his child. Poor girl.
Yeah. So on September 9th, Damien's son was born.
He was obviously not allowed to be at the birth.
He did not hold his son until during his murder trial.
Jesus Christ. Which is just like, whoa. Now, a couple of months after all of their arrests on November 17th, So at this point, they didn't have a murder weapon.
They didn't really have anything. Yeah. Except for that bullshit confession.
Well, on November 17th, John Fogelman... john fulgerman uh he's you know he's a very wise and all-knowing wizard of a man is this the judge No, this is John Fogelman is the prosecutor.
Got it. He's he suddenly was like, you know what?
I have a hunch that I have a hunch about something.
This hunch was that there was probably something awesome and murder related in the small lake behind where Jason and his mother lived.
Just a hunch. Okay. You know how you get those hunches every once in a while.
Yeah. So because hunches are very often legit.
The police called all the media to this lake on this hunch.
Uh-huh. Weird, right? Yes. Putting a lot on that hunch that it's going to pay off for you. in these media that they allocated many resources into hiring a diving team during all of this.
Okay. They all came to the lake, all the media, all watching.
And now the diver dives into the lake. Because there's a hunch something's in there.
Right. The diver's in the lake for less than 30 minutes.
A murky, deep lake. and with no direction of where something could be at all.
Wow, he suddenly comes up less than 30 minutes later.
And he's like, huh, look at this giant combat knife I found in this murky lake that I had no idea where to look for it.
What luck. He's so lucky. I mean, that doesn't happen every day.
He's so lucky. What a hunch, John Fogelman.
Good for you. That was really good. That's so fucked up.
Well, turns out the knife was Jason's old knife.
But... The reason Fogelman knew it was in the lake... It wasn't just a hunch, everybody.
He put it there. He knew. Was because Jason's mom... had mentioned he had a knife a long time ago, but she threw it in the lake a year before.
And she threw it in the lake because he was like being a dick.
And she was like, I'm getting rid of your lake, your knife.
I'm getting rid of your lake, Jason. I'm drying up.
Sick of your shit. So something went down, like he got in trouble and she was like, I'm getting rid of your knife.
So she threw it in the lake a year earlier.
Okay. A year early. Right, right, right.
So, like, what? And she had mentioned it to John Fogle.
Like, it would have been mentioned casually.
Right. Like, he once had a knife, but, like, I threw it away a year ago.
It's gone. Oh, I wish she hadn't said that.
They threw it in the lake. But she never... I know.
I only thought that anything was going to come out of that because she knew that her fucking son didn't do it.
Exactly. And this was a large combat knife and it had a serrated edge.
Now the ME at the time, Frank Peretti, who was kind of a mess.
Oh, like Frank Peretti is kind of a conundrum because like in ways he is a mess in another ways.
He's not a mess. So it's like he's just difficult.
Now, the ME had initially said that a lot of the wounds on the boys were likely caused by a serrated knife.
Okay. So, of course... This immediately went right.
This beautiful hunch that John Fogelman had just paid off.
Yeah. So and there's also like a photo of like the diver holding the knife.
It just became a whole thing. okay so january 26 1994 jesse went on trial oh good this is jesse's trial alone John Fogelman, that wise wizard, was the prosecutor, and he only had the confession, really, with Jesse.
Right. That was it. That was the centerpiece of the whole thing.
Dan Stidham, Jesse's lawyer. tried to have the confession thrown out.
Because it's insane. Exactly. So Detective Brian Ridge... took the stand to explain the confession.
Now, Brian Ridge was in one of the detectives during the confession. he went on the stand and he explained that the before the tape recorded because he was like what went on before the tape recorded right we don't have any record of that He said, oh, before we started recording that, Jesse told us of satanic orgies, how they ate dogs. and sacrificed animals.
Meanwhile, the poor kid doesn't even know who Satan is.
Yes. He has no idea who Satan is. And they asked him why they showed, because remember, they showed Jesse a photo of one of the dead children.
Right. And they said, and so Dan Stenum was like, why did you do that?
And they said it was to invoke a response because Jesse would just shut down during questioning.
Or he would just say the same thing over and over and we needed him to say something different.
Oh, so you needed him to say that he did it is what you're saying.
So he was telling you his story. And you didn't like it.
You didn't like it. Exactly. So you decided to show him a dead kid to get him upset so that he would say, please stop, and you would say, I'll stop showing you dead kids.
When you tell me what I want to hear. Right.
So that's what happened. That's really sad, man.
And he's basically saying this on the fucking stand.
And everybody's like, yeah, yeah, that's totally fine.
That's legit. Yeah, it's fine. And it's like, I just want to say to all these people, especially the jury, I want to be like...
So you would feel like that was okay if it was you in that room and that's what they did?
You would feel like that was totally legal and totally legit.
You'd be fine. Yeah, 100%. Like, okay. Now, Dan Stidham went over the confession with Gary Gitchell in court, and he pointed out all the inaccuracies.
And Gitchell said about these inaccuracies, he said he told a good bit of the truth, even though he got the details completely wrong in some spots.
Oh, okay. And then when Dan Stenum was like, well, here's all the times when he literally got... giant details wrong or said several different things about one thing and gary gitchell said quote jesse simply got confused Oh, okay.
Got confused about the murder that he committed.
Yeah, no big deal. No big deal. Now, Dr. William E. Wilkins was a psychologist for the defense and he has one of the best voices ever, by the way.
He said the fact that the crime scene was so clean was due to the fact that someone with quote. great cunning and intelligence tried to get rid of every bit of evidence and they did. uh-huh does someone with a great bit of cunning and intelligence sound like jesse muskelly No.
No. Now, this psychologist did not testify.
He was not permitted to testify. Which is dumb.
This was just him while he talked to the defense lawyers.
He was like, yeah. by my like assertion of this is somebody with a lot of cunning and intelligence planned this out, went through everything to make sure all the evidence was gone.
This does not sound like a 17-year-old kid who reads at a third grade level.
Doesn't sound like any 17-year-old kid. Exactly.
Um, so he suggested he actually suggested he was like, maybe you should have the jury like here. how lust killers leave crime scenes right because this was like not at all what that was uh-huh So Warren D. Holmes was the defense's expert on police interrogation techniques and he was allowed to testify.
Okay. He said on the stand that the types of people who normally falsely confess have low self-confidence.
Mm-hmm. Jessi. Low IQ. jesse want to solve the immediate issue the most so they're literally looking at just what is in front of them so that he can go home with his dad exactly So just get the, they just want to get the police away from them.
So they'll say whatever they need to. They are easily led.
And they naively assume that they can just straighten it all out later.
And that's what it is. And Jesse said it later.
He's like, I just thought I needed to get them to stop talking to me and to let me leave.
And I just figured like, we'll figure it out later.
I'll just tell them I was lying later. Oh my God.
Like that's what they believe. And so...
He pointed out that the leading in the confession and the fact that Jesse was not allowed to narrate it Clearly shows.
That they are telling him. This is what I want you to say.
And he's going okay. They're not saying Jesse.
Tell me what happened. Right. And then just letting him talk.
They're like, okay, so you went into the woods.
Now you tell me what you saw when you saw...
Damien and Jason standing like it's all them leading him into it and he's doing it because he just wants to please them one and And two, he just wants to get the fuck out of there.
He wants to go back to his dad. Which is so sad.
It's so sad. And Warren D. Holmes, the defense expert on police interrogation that said all this, he also said the ligature mix-up, where...
He didn't know that they were shoelaces.
He kept saying rope. And then he kept saying brown rope. when it was white and black shoelaces right he said that to him is the most indicative of a false confession right he was like you don't even know there's no way he would have got that wrong there's just no way right it's like and he got that wrong several times he could not get that detail right and that's not just a tiny detail like was it you know cold or warm out that day right it's like no this is a big deal you would have known what the ligature was um so One thing that really bothers me in the trial where like, because again, this was like one of the first trials that was cameras were allowed in the courtroom.
Right. So one of the parts, Gitchell is on the stand and Fogelman asks if there was any other suspect that they spoke to. who knew about the genital mutilation and the mutilation to Steve Branch's face.
Right. when he asks this, when he says the face, he touches the right side of his face to demonstrate.
Like he's like, Did they know about the genital mutilation and did they know about the mutilation to the face?
And he puts his hand on his face. Okay. Gitchell says no, no one else knew, and he says, quote, in fact, you, Mr. Fogelman, touched the wrong side of your face when you said that.
It's the left side that was mutilated. And the courtroom, including Fogelman, just laugh.
That's not funny. Like, they're all part of this, like... You're talking about, like, the mutilation of an eight-year-old.
It, like, gave me gross... Because it's just, like...
It looked like it was this thing that they had already planned almost.
It looked like this planned little thing between them where it was like, in fact, Mr. Fogelman...
You touched the wrong side of us. And Fogelman is like, ah, ha, ha, and just touches the other side of us.
And the whole courtroom's like, ah, ha. Like, that's not funny.
And it's like, what, guys? Are you fucking kidding?
You're talking about an eight-year-old. And I know that's just like a small thing, but like that one thing that I watched, I was like, gross.
Right. And it just looked like... Planned.
Planned. It looked very planned out. Like this planned little like, oh, let's have this little like do-do-do between each other.
Right. So another defense expert on police interrogation was Dr. Richard Offshee.
Now, this guy, Judge Burnett, did not want testifying and almost didn't allow it at all.
So after a lengthy back and forth with Dan Stidham, Trying to explain... So Dan Stidham was just trying... Or Stidham.
I always say it wrong. Stidham, I think it is.
Oh, okay. Dan Stidham. So Dan Stidham was trying to explain what he was going to testify to, what this expert was going to be testifying to.
He was basically saying that he was going to have him testify whether or not he felt that the confession was coerced, which is what his expertise was on.
Right. Burnett said, quote, I'm going to I'm not going to let or excuse me, I'm going to let him testify.
But I'm not about to let him testify that in his opinion, Miskelly is innocent.
Don't even try to ask him whether or not he has an opinion whether the confession was true or false.
Because I'm ruling he cannot do that. And I'm not going to allow him to testify in his opinion.
These officers, I'm not allowing him to testify in his opinion that these officers illegally exacted or coerced a confession from him either.
I'm not going to allow him to testify to that.
So what's he going to testify to? Isn't that the whole fucking point of a trial?
Sure is. So he was eventually allowed to testify after Stidham.
I mean, this back and forth. And I got, like, the back and forth is laid out in Mara Leverett's... the devil's not which everybody needs to read that shit is so in depth right and it has like the transcripts and everything The back and forth that resulted between Stidham and the judge and Fogelman about this one fucking witness and what Dan Stidham was allowed to ask.
What could the guy even say? At that point, it's like, what's the point of having him on the stand?
Well, it's like every single time that... that um Stidham would ask a question Fogelman would throw a shit fit and say he can't ask that and the judge would be like yep you can't ask that And he was like, well, what the fuck am I supposed to ask this dude?
Right. Like, why are we even doing? Why are we even having a fucking trial?
Literally at one point, Dan Stidham asked the judge, can I write down a question I want to ask him and give it to you?
And you can tell me if I can ask him. Wow.
So that like Fogelman can stop jumping on my ass and like this can all stop because he would send the jury out.
And then they talk about it, then bring them back in.
And then he asked the question. They'd be like, nope, you can't do that.
And they'd send the jury back out. Like it was a circus.
Right. Exactly. So he finally allowed him to testify.
And. This doctor said that the best example of leading craziness in this confession is the eight revisitings of the time the crime actually happened.
Yeah. Because it's like noon. And he says it happened at noon.
And then, you know, one of the detectives says, oh, okay, so it happened after school.
And that's not noon. So that's not after school.
So they were like, they are suggesting to him.
I think it happened after school, Jesse.
And Jesse's like, yep, it happened after school.
So every time they suggest something, he just goes, yep, that's how it is.
He never... ever goes against something they suggest exactly confession and then they follow up with the night you were in the woods after he just said noon, then after school, and then it turns into the night you were in the woods.
And right after they say that, Jesse goes with it.
He goes, yep, that night when I was in the woods, blah, blah, blah.
Right, because he's like, cool, I'll say that because then they'll leave me alone.
And this expert says he never used nighttime before that.
It was only when they suggested it. And it happened every time.
So... They said this is just a prime example of getting him to accept this narrative from their suggestion.
They keep doing it. This is prime example of a coerced confession.
I don't see. how anybody could not see that now one reason that this expert was stopped from testifying like in the middle of his testimony yeah because he was stopped many times, he was stopped because Stidham literally asked him, quote,
Doctor, is it possible for police interrogation tactics to produce a false confession?
He literally asked him, is it possible, not even in this case.
Like, did this happen? For any police interrogation tactics in any case.
And they wouldn't let him ask that. To have a false confession be the result.
He's just asking that generally, not even for the case.
Just is that a possibility that that can happen?
And they wouldn't let him answer. Sometime.
Well, the doctor starts to answer and he says, you know what?
He offers up an empirical study. a scientific study in Stanford Law Review about false confessions Where they looked at 350 cases where someone was found guilty and was actually innocent.
Mm-hmm. So he starts to say this. He's like, oh, well, actually in the Stanford Law Review, ba-ba-da-ba-da.
The judge immediately stops him and says, nope, that's not allowed.
Why? So Fogelman like shits his pants at this question.
Like Fogelman is like... I can't ask that like freaks out and Burnett said quote I'm interpreting this as an attempt to use coercive techniques on the jury, to suggest to them that this is a false confession and that there is danger in their considering the confession and that it suggests to them that they have to be very careful not to make a 350 error, whatever the percentage was.
What? Exactly. So what he's saying is, I think that you're trying to convince the jury By asking if a false confession ever happens in the history of police interrogations, you're trying to convince the jury that this is false.
Right. And then you're scaring them by using that scary empirical study from the Stanford Law Review And they're going to think that they're making the same error that those other 350 cases.
Which is exactly. Exactly what they're about to do.
And I love that he calls it that they need to be very careful not to make a 350 error, whatever the percentage was.
Like... Are you educated, sir? You're killing it, bro.
Cool. Cool, cool, cool. So this is when that and that's when Dan Stidham is like, can I write down a fucking question and hand it to you?
He must have wanted to bang his head against the wall.
That poor fucking man. He did all he could do, man.
He really did. I don't understand how this happened.
It is mind boggling that this all happened.
He was truly banging his head up against a wall.
And I hope they all get stung by a bee in the butt every day.
Every day. Every person. So that it never heals and it's just always sore when they sit.
No, all over their butt. All over their butt. so real quick I am about this is like a little bit of a trigger warning because I mean if you're this far in You've heard some shit, but just in case.
I'm about to talk about rape, and I'm about to be slightly graphic.
Skip forward if you don't want to hear it.
It'll be pretty quick. I just need to prove a little point.
Now the part that really bothers me about this confession...
Is the rapes that Jesse... Because that didn't happen.
Continuously said happened. During the confession, Jesse said the boys were... violently raped several times.
I mean, he says... Many times, you know, Damien started screwing them, Jason started screwing them They asked where, you know, what rapes, you know, anal, oral, whatever.
He said both. And he said many times. I mean, it didn't just happen once, according to this. quote unquote confession.
The thing is, there's no evidence to this. none no one no medical examiner saw any evidence of rape right No tearing, no nothing.
No bruising, nothing. So they brought the, they are eight-year-old boys. if they were violently raped in the way that Jesse described several times there would be a lot of evidence to this.
Right. A lot. And there was none. Several medical examiners agreed there was none.
Right. So this this was brought forward.
So they brought this up to Jesse after the trial.
They were like, hey, there's no evidence that they were raped.
Why did you say that? Why would you say that?
Did you say the cops told them to? Oh, yeah.
They were going to rape them, but then they didn't. okay does this sound like somebody who was fucking there and is telling the truth no Half of his story the first time was that they were quote unquote screwing him.
Right. And then he comes back and he's like, oh, you know, they were going to do that, but then they didn't.
After he's told that there's literally no physical evidence.
This is so sad. And now the officers all testified that they also never took notes for the time before the recorded confession and that they couldn't even really remember what he said or discussed during that time in most cases you would think a story this jarring what he would have had to say before you'd fucking remember yeah All they could really remember was they were like, yeah, I know he talked about satanic orgies.
Yeah, totally. And like killing and eating dogs.
Like, I know that. But like, other than that, I don't know.
And we didn't write anything down and we didn't record anything.
And we lost a lie detector test at one point.
It's totally fine. No. Yeah. So the prosecution brought out the big guns.
And they brought on the stand one Vicki Hutchinson.
Oh, goody. Now, this is the waitress who...
And I'm not saying waitress in a derogatory manner.
I was a fucking waitress. Just in case anyone, because we did get yelled at by one person.
This is just funny. So I had to say, we got yelled at for referring to Vicky as a waitress.
Right. When her profession was a waitress.
A waitress. And Ash was a waitress for five years of my life.
So I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but Vicki Hutchinson, the waitress, took the stand.
And she testified about that a spot that, you know, the one that she said, Jesse.
And Damien drove her to and Jesse stayed at while her and Damien left because she was just so offended by the whole thing.
Meanwhile, Damien left. Couldn't drive.
Nope. Couldn't drive. And the whole thing just didn't happen.
And the car didn't exist. And the one that she later admitted she lied like a fucking rug about.
And she literally said that she lied about the entire thing, the whole thing, and that the reason she did it was that Jerry Driver and all those detectives told her to do it.
And so she went on the stand at a murder trial and lied about this she told a bullshit story what do you think would have happened had she not I mean, I think that definitely was a big, I'm sure in the jury's minds, that was like, oh, well, shit.
There it is. This woman saying she went to a satanic orgy with him.
Right. What else do you need to hear? Like, that's their whole thing.
What do you think the police would have, like, done to her?
I mean, I don't know. Could they have done anything to her?
She did have like small fraud charges on her record and stuff.
They could have. So they just blackmailed her.
Yeah. Oh, they definitely blackmailed her.
Right. For sure. And I think this was perfect because one of the things that really stands out in this case, and to this day, none of them can really quote on this, There was no motive for this whatsoever.
Right. They had zero motive. The only motive they had was Satan and ritualistic homicide.
That's it. Okay. There was no motive. So without that, a spot in that satanic meeting and her being like, yep, I was there.
It happened. There's really nothing except for his like bullshit confession, which doesn't make any sense.
Now, they also had another star witness named William Jones.
Um, he ended up not coming to go on the stand because he turned out to be a lying shithead too. oh it's weird how many lying shitheads they got together so crazy he was a teenager and he Oh, okay.
William admitted he was lying right before testifying.
And he was like, I just don't want to lie under oath.
I feel like that's bad juju. So I'll lie everywhere else.
I'll lie to the police, to my mom, to everybody else.
But, like, I'll be in trouble for it. Like...
You're lying about a kid murdering three little children.
That's the thing. I'm like, that doesn't sound like a fun lie.
Yeah. Yep. And Jerry Driver was then put on the stand.
Oh, goody. To say that Jesse, he was like, he was put on there literally just to say that Jesse hung out with Damien and Jason.
Meanwhile, they really didn't. No. But he said when he saw them that they were walking around... being spooky doing wearing trench coats and carrying staffs what is a staff like a walking stick what it's just like like what like a goddamn wizard basically like okay they also had cloaks Now, just a reminder, no forensic evidence linked Jesse to the crime.
There was no motive whatsoever. So Jesse is sitting there thinking, Jesus, this is boring.
Can't wait to be done with this and go home.
Can't wait to hang out with my dad. Literally the whole time.
Oh, my God. That trial lasted eight days.
And then he was convicted of first-degree murder. in the death of Michael Moore, and second-degree murder in the deaths of Stephen Branch and Chris Byers after only one day of jury deliberation.
He was sentenced to life plus two 20-year sentences.
My God. He got the first-degree murder charge for Michael Moore because in that confession... he says he chased Michael Moore down and held him there.
Right. So he got the first degree murder for him.
And one of the most outspoken, which I understand, so the buyers.
Right. Melissa Byers and John Mark Byers.
Right. They were one of the ones that spoke the most.
Mm-hmm. I think Michael Moore's parents were very quiet, very chill people.
And then Pam Hobbs kind of spoke to, you know, Stevie's mom kind of spoke to the media a lot.
Terry Hobbs didn't really say a lot. Wonder why.
Hmm. But the Byers were just, I mean, John Mark Byers is a trip.
To say the least. And Melissa Byers was an angry, grieving mother.
And it's like... i understand i get it like i would also be wishing the fucking worst on these kids because again they're being told by the police like all this shit All this shit that makes it seem like, yeah, they did it.
Right. And if you think these three fuckers murdered your eight year old.
Of course you're going to say. Of course you're going to want to tell them that you hope they rot in hell and like terrible things happen to them.
So I get it. But I'm just going to play the clip of what Melissa said after Jesse was sentenced.
Okay. This doesn't change anything. Christopher's dead.
And he was tortured to death by three murdering bastards on a ditch bank.
He was eight years old. And guilty is guilty.
And I hope the little sucker, when he hits Cummins, they get his ass right off the bat.
Because he deserves to be tortured and punished for the rest of his life for murdering three eight-year-olds. so yeah she was um i mean that's a grieving mother that's an angry grieving mother and i I totally get it.
I would have said the same exact thing. I think any parent can understand that or anybody who loves any child in their life can understand that.
Again, they were the ones that spoke the most to the media.
And after he was sentenced to life in prison, she had one more thing to say.
And it's pretty colorful. And I just think we should share it.
Okay. I'm going to mail him a skirt. Wowzers.
Big wolf. So, you know, if you think this dude murdered your child, I'd be mailing him a skirt as well.
So. I get it. Yeah. So I just thought that would help paint a picture here.
So now Jesse has been sentenced. Convicted.
Sentenced. One down. There's two more to go now.
So Fogelman and the other prosecutor Davis, I think his name is Brent Davis.
He was a real dick. Oh, good. Another one.
We need all of them. Brent Davis and John Fogelman just have like...
Just those faces that you want. Resting douche face.
You just want to be like, shut up. Resting douche face.
Yeah, it really is. It's just like, God.
So Fogelman and Davis were now trying to convince Jesse to testify against Damian and Jason.
Okay. Now they're saying to him, sure, you've been sentenced to life in prison.
But if you testify against them, we'll lessen your sentence.
Probably not. Because now they're like, cool, we manipulated him into confessing.
Right. Bet we can manipulate them into testifying now.
And they said, we'll remove the life sentence.
We'll give you a way lesser sentence. They told him Damien and Jason would most likely get off scot-free without his testimony against them.
Okay. Because they were like, we don't...
Because they basically were like, we don't have any evidence.
So if you don't testify against them, they're going to get off.
And then they said, when they're released, they're probably going to find your girlfriend Susie.
Oh, my God. And they were like, and do you want to be responsible for that?
How do they even say that to him? And poor Jesse was like, no, I don't.
He's like, well, shit. Now, side note. In Paradise Lost, there is a conversation when Jesse is in prison between him and his girlfriend Susie.
They love each other so much. It's... It's the most... It's just one of those conversations that you're like, can we make this stop now?
Because Jesse... is telling her about a dream he had where they just had sex everywhere oh and he keeps going It freaked me out.
He's like, it was awful. And the camera's just fixed on Susie.
Poor Susie. is sitting there turning bright red being like, oh, okay, this is fun.
She's like, we're on camera, let's talk about anything else.
She's like, this is a documentary. And you feel like you're like, I shouldn't be watching this.
Yeah. These are 17 year olds. I don't want to watch this.
That's wrong. And it's just so when they said that about Susie, I was like, poor Susie.
Oh God. I was like, God damn it. I bet you Susie moved out of town.
I bet she did. She seemed sweet. Sweet Susie.
So, now... This is when, so obviously I'm sure in his head, Jesse, I'm sure the first thing you're thinking is like, yeah, I want a lesser sentence.
Right. But Jesse's mother, who was not his birth mother, but the mother who in the documentary you see her, she like raised him from a baby.
I love her. And she seemed really... sweet she does like she like really loved him and he really loved her he called her his mother oh um she said i'm gonna be in that courtroom And if you lie under oath, I'm going to know it.
And you're going to be doing it in front of me.
And like you say you respect me. Would you do that in front of me?
Oh, she was so smart. That's a smart tactic.
And also his father said, if you lie under oath, then you're going to have to live with that forever. right and then he said but if you tell the truth then someday your name is going to be cleared because of your honesty right And he was like, so they both were like, so just chew on that.
Uh-huh. Like, we're not telling you what to do.
We're just saying that was smart. So they both said that.
And so Jesse decided the day before their trials against testifying against Damian and Jason. because he said I would be lying if I did.
Wow. these kids when it comes down to it a lot of they took care of each other yeah it's like they weirdly i know jesse confessed and put them into this i i'm sure there's people that are like what the fuck but let's look at we have to look at everything that happened and it's like in the end Jesse did not put the nail in the coffin when he could have.
He could have just kept going with this and been like, yeah.
But in the end, he was like, nope, I'd be lying.
So the DA also tried to get Jason to testify against Damien.
And they were brothers. They were brothers.
And they were basically saying you can have a lesser sentence, Jason, if you just testify against him.
But it's in Jason. So in Jesse's supposed confession, he painted Jason as a monster.
Yeah. who murdered these boys just like Damien did.
He did not paint him as like Jason was sitting by and didn't do a lot.
So if they really believed that confession, would they be offering to give Jason 10 years in prison only?
Nope. They would not be doing that. Nope.
They first offered him something like 40 years.
Holy shit. And he was like, no, I'm not like I'm not doing that.
And then they were like, Jason, you can have 10 years.
We'll knock it down to 10 if you just testify against him.
Wow, that's bananas. Again, if they believe that confession, they would be letting a fucking... evil, evil person.
Well, Jason, again, even with the ten years...
He said no, because he said it's a lie. And even his own lawyers begged him to take that deal.
And he was like, no, I won't lie. Good for him.
So much integrity, like, flying around here.
It's crazy. So all they had... And Fogelman, so all these people, the prosecution had and Fogelman sits and goes through this in the HBO doc and There's also in devil's knot.
I'm just gonna read you what he says They did not have a lot on these boys no especially i mean they didn't have anything on either one of them but he lays it out he says if jesse's confession is excluded We don't have much, which to me, I'm like, doesn't that tell you that there's really no case here?
Right. So basically what they had was three fibers.
Now, he said this was fiber evidence, but basically what it was was...
It was like a green fiber and a red fiber found on the boys.
And they were... Like they could be a match to clothing found in either one of the boys clothes.
Because they both had green and red shirts.
Exactly. And it was like things like from like a robe and stuff.
But it could be from any robe. Right. Like the...
Fiber evidence is not, it wasn't matched down to the garment.
It was matched down to like a garment that could be that garment.
So fiber evidence, that was not strong at all.
That was like nothing. There was also somebody who said that they saw Damien and Domini on the service road outside of Robin Hood Hills.
But the problem with that was... Domini wasn't there.
That was putting Domini on the scene when the confession didn't.
Right. um and it was also not including jason right so that didn't work and They also had statements by two teenage girls, or actually it ended up being a few teenage girls at a softball game. who all said that they heard Damien confess.
But we're going to get to that in a minute, how bonkers that is.
And then they also had and we'll get into this too a statement from a guy that who was in prison with jason for a couple months when he was being held before the trial who said that he confessed to him that he did it okay But that is going to be pulled apart as well.
So they don't have, all they have is people saying, I heard them say they did it.
That's all they have. So, so basically, let's see the so.
Going back to the fiber evidence, what it's called is microscopically similar, not a match.
Okay. So that's not a good thing at all.
And then they also had that knife that was found in the lake that didn't match anything.
The hunch knife. Didn't make any sense. But okay.
So Dr. Frank Peretti, the medical examiner, like I said before, he had already said that there was no evidence of sexual assault at all.
He had said that in Jesse's trial. Now, the defense asked Burnett, asked Judge Burnett. to rule that the prosecution could not say the boys were sodomized or sexually assaulted in Jason and Damien's trial because the evidence had suggested that they were not. so they were like they shouldn't be allowed to even imply that they were because they weren't the evidence says they weren't right And also a huge emotional weight comes along with sexual assault of a child.
Yup. So it shouldn't even be mentioned.
It shouldn't be implied in any way. And there needs to be a ruling that says that.
Right. Well, there wasn't. What did Judge Burnett do?
What did he do? What do you think he did?
Not the right thing. He allowed the prosecution to claim that they were sodomized.
But they weren't. Yep. And there were several medical examiners who said, no, they were not.
But he let them mention it, imply it. Put it out there.
But they couldn't mention a study that happened.
But they couldn't mention something in the Stanford Law Review.
Okay. That seems legit. So February 28th, 1994, Damien and Jason's trial begin.
Oh, no. The assistant medical examiner, Dr. Frank Peretti, who we have mentioned, and I mentioned that he's like a kind of good and kind of not good at all. so frank peretti is the medical examiner in arkansas or he was He was not impartial because the Emmy in Arkansas at the time was actually was basically working for the prosecution oh so it was just not an impartial and everywhere else in the country it's usually a very impartial I don't have a horse in this race position.
Right. But not for this. Also, at the time, he was not board certified.
Oh. And that actually failed his boards.
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's helpful. He is now, if you check on him, but...
At the time, he was not. Perfect. He testified about scratch marks found all over the boy's bodies because there was a lot of scratch marks.
And he said that they were the result of a serrated knife being dragged repeatedly down their bodies to torture them.
That would just make scratch marks. But not actually like breaking skin, just scratching?
I doubt that. Which I'm like, I really don't think that makes sense.
It didn't. And... he also said that they were hit with a serrated blade over and over to inflict injuries that were seen okay Now, he cited a book called Forensic Pathology written by Dr. Vincent DeMeo for where he came up with most of his assertions for this.
Yeah. Now keep this thing in mind because we're going to talk about this at the end of this episode a little bit and also in the next episode.
The book? yeah and dr vincent de mayo okay who does not agree with that assertion oh uh so he put this all out there so now This is lining up with the serrated knife found in the lake.
And they're saying, oh, look at this. It's the same thing.
Now in 2009, just skipping ahead really quick, Dr. Michael Baden, who I've mentioned before, he's amazing.
He's a top forensic pathologist. He's going to be at CrimeCon, everybody.
I hope CrimeCon happens. I was going to say, if it's not canceled.
So in 2009, Dr. Michael Baden was brought in to reassess these autopsy findings. for Jason and Jesse's retrial, and he said the autopsy findings looked like they were trying to fit the satanic cult prosecution mold.
Oh weird probably because they were. And he said quote I think unfortunately that quick assumption of a satanic cult colored the autopsy interpretations and police investigations. wrongly yeah so he came out in 2009 was like no no no that was not it at all boom So he's not the only one who disputed these autopsy results, but we're going to get to that after.
So at the time, this is what Dr. Frank Peretti is saying.
Okay. So then they brought in Michael Roy Carson.
He was a 16 year old prisoner. This is the kid I was talking about that went to was in the juvenile prison where Jason was being held before trial.
Okay. Michael Roy Carson. He was in there with...
Jason in August 1993 that's when they shared this time together He had a long rap sheet.
He did a ton of acid and plenty of other drugs.
Uh-huh. I'm not saying anything about like acid and you know do what you do whatever you want to do but like just putting that out there.
And he had a long rap sheet. He said on the stand, they brought him in because he said on the stand that Jason bragged to him about the murders.
He said five... This happened five months earlier.
Mm-hmm. He said... that jason told him quote he said now this is gross and graphic just put that out there He said that Jason said, Oh.
Yeah. This was only revealed because he was having his own legal problems. and suddenly decided to reveal this to help himself out.
Right. Because they were like, did it take you five months to do this and he's like oh i don't know meanwhile he he has legal shit that's going on and they were like oh we'll help you out if you just testify uh-huh Now when they asked him why it took five months, he said that he had seen the grieving families crying on TV.
They were so upset. And he said, quote, I have a soft heart.
I just couldn't take. Oh, OK. Is that how you landed yourself in prison?
He later recanted. Yeah, I believe that.
Yep. He said he heard those things not from Jason, but from a counselor in the prison who was just spreading a rumor. perfect and he decided he heard that and was like oh that's gross and weird and then he found out that you know this is going on trial And I'd love to lessen my sentence.
He's got all these legal issues and they're coming up.
And he's like, well, shit, I can pretend that he said it to me.
Oh my God. The amount of fucking shit bags in this case.
Unbelievable. Straight up shit. Shitbags.
And it's also... In the beginning, it was like the $35,000 reward that was for information about this case.
Right. That... drew in a lot of people because this is a lot of poor people that are looking that $35,000 especially at the time was huge.
Do you know if anybody ended up getting $35,000?
I don't think so. Yeah. No. So Fogelman asked Detective Brian Ridge what books he found Damien to be reading when he was interviewed the many times that they interviewed him before they arrested.
Hold up, can you imagine if your library was taken into account?
No. You would be guilty as charged. That's literally all I could think about while reading.
Do you know? If that was solely what they used to convict you, I would have to visit you in jail daily.
There's so many things in this case that I was like, well shit you're like I have that same book I would have 100% been in these shoes if they looked at even my room they'd be like She didn't do it.
Yeah, they'd be like, no, she's good. They'd be like, it's too bright and happy in here.
But if they looked at my shit... You'd be fucked.
We'd be in trouble. And especially Book's.
Like, when I got to this, when Fogelman starts asking what books Damien read, like, that has any bearing on a murder trial.
Why does that matter? I was like, oh, shit, don't look at mine.
Like, oh, my. And basically, Brian Ridge said when we went to his trailer and saw in his room, he was reading Stephen King books and stuff by Anton LaVey.
And he said he thought it was strange, in his opinion, that he read that.
Stephen King is not, well, factored into Damien's fate.
I almost just said it's not strange, but then I was like, well, he is.
But it's very normal. horror books. Like, lots of people read Stephen King.
We all went to see it in theaters, okay?
Stephen King rules. Let's be real. But the fact that his... library is brought into this shouldn't is blowing my mind Now, Judge Burnett said it didn't matter that information being introduced into this trial was obtained Remember when they basically cornered minors in front of Jason's home without a lawyer or their parents present?
Yep. Judge Burnett said it didn't matter that that's how it was obtained.
It's just the fact that it was obtained.
All of it was fine and admissible, even though it was obtained that way, which is illegal.
But that's fine. And then so he said, that's all fine.
That's all well and good. That's like the way they obtained it is not bad.
But he said information like what he read and what he had known about the case from the media, that's fine, too.
We want to hear about his books. We want to hear about what he knew about the case from the media.
This is all going to factor into it. Oh, okay.
That sounds like a fair trial to me. So it's, like, what?
Doesn't make any sense. Now next, the prosecution brought Dr. Dale W. Griffiths on as an expert on the occult.
This guy is bananas. Ba-nanas. He was brought into this mess by Jerry fucking Driver.
Shocking. When asked about Satanists, he said that he personally witnessed them wearing, quote, black fingernails, having their hair painted black. wearing black t-shirts, sometimes they will tattoo themselves.
Sometimes they will tattoo themselves. Sometimes.
Okay. He said the fact that it was... So he said...
The fact that the killings occurred near the Festival of Beltane, which is on May 1st, meant it was probably satanic.
Okay. Meanwhile, Beltane is like a Scottish festival and it hails the return of summer The fertility of the land and the protection of all living things from troubling forces.
Oh. So this would not have happened. Yeah, totally.
Also, Beltane's on May 1st, and the murders happened several days after that.
So... That doesn't really make sense. Like, were they just like, whoops, we missed Beltane.
Let's go murder some kids. And also, I don't think you'd murder anybody on Beltane.
Don't think so. You might just like plant a tree. yeah it doesn't really make sense now here's an exchange between the uh defense and griffiths okay Or no, excuse me, not the defense.
The prosecution and Griffiths. So they said, okay...
Now, is eight a factor? Because they were eight years old.
Because that is a witch's number, what's the significance of eight?
Eight is a witch's number? Well, Griffiths says, okay, in Crowley's work, he discusses that sex before eight or you lose the magical power.
So they say sex before eight or lose the magical power.
Okay, so that if the victims were all eight years old, then that wouldn't be sex before eight, correct?
Uh-huh. And Griffith says, I said, say, eight?
I'm sorry, not nine. Eight or before. Eight is a witch's number.
What? Yep. What is it? What is that answer?
So basically what he's saying is so they were like, well, wait, if they were eight years old and it's sex before eight.
It didn't work out. That wouldn't work and it would not make any sense.
And he's like, oh, you know what? Did I say eight?
I mean, I mean, nine or younger. So eight is OK.
Right. A.K.A. I forgot how old the victims were.
And I totally forgot any of this and it didn't line up with the narrative.
So now it does. Now I made it. Now... Eight is a witch's number was cited by the Arkansas State Supreme Court in upholding this verdict. oh yes yep that long pause was my face dropping sure was uh now Now Ford asked him about his education.
Ford is one of the defense attorneys. Mm-hmm.
He asked him about his education. He was like, well, you're an occult expert and you're a doctor.
You're a PhD. How did you get that? Right. and he said he had a PhD from Columbia Pacific University.
It was a mail-order college degree. no he called so he so price or uh yeah ford asks him like calls him out about it he's like you have a mail order college fucking PhD.
Right. I didn't even know that was an option.
It sure is. I would have done that. And...
Griffiths finally admitted that he took zero classes to gain his PhD.
In case you didn't hear that, zero classes.
So he has a PhD. With zero classes. How much do you think he paid for that?
I have no idea. This college, quote unquote, was also closed by court order in 2000.
What? Yeah. Because it's just one of those...
And it's funny because Ford holds up the mail order thing and is like, did you get one of these in the mail?
Like, can you just fill it out? Right. And he's like, yes.
And he's like, and that's when he's like, how many keeps going?
He goes, how many classes did you take? And he was like, well, I already said that.
And then he's like no how many classes and he has to say how many classes are did you take like six times and finally he goes None.
I took none. Oh, and that was let. And you're like, that affected the jury.
Well, and then they're like, hey, Judge Burnett.
How come he's an expert witness, but he literally does not have a fucking... Like, he has a mail order.
He might as well be, like... A random dude that they pulled off the street that morning.
It might as well just be like, I really like pickles because I think they taste good.
I am an expert on pickles. Right. Like, what?
Shoot. So they're like, Judge Burnett, he's not an expert because he has a mail order PhD. can we just all agree on that and judge burnett was like you can be an expert just from life No, he didn't say that.
He said that? He totally did. From life?
No. Judge Burnett wouldn't, he denied a polygraph expert to testify, but not a cult expert. with a mail order PhD.
He would have contradicted the results that said that they were guilty.
Right. And he also wouldn't let a false confessions expert in And he also doesn't believe psychologists have any business on there.
But this occult expert who did a mail-order PhD just has life experience, man.
He should be allowed. Wow. That's a judge, huh?
Totally. Okay. Also thought it was pretty pertinent to talk about the fact that the murders occurred on a full moon.
Oh. The judge thought that? The judge wanted to mention he was like, no, it was a full moon that night.
So let's get this straight. Psychologists?
No, no, no, no, no. False confessions expert?
No, no, no, no, no, no. Polygraph expert?
No way. Let's talk about the lunar phases, though.
That definitely has a bearing on this. Okay.
This is a fucking capital murder trial of three eight-year-olds.
Well, the full moon makes everybody act a little zany.
Like, are you kidding me right now? He wasn't.
I wish. So this is when Damien's stuff was like... just torn apart.
Right. Um, they started talking about how he had a book of shadows.
Same. Uh, same sees, uh, His music tastes were like crazy.
And he had animal skulls. And... it was all bullshit okay so this is when and again none of these things have any bearing on murdered children This is like how you like to decorate your home.
This is nothing. This is just straight up like goth kid.
This is crazy. So Burnett literally asked out loud during the trial what the occult was.
He didn't know what the occult was. Who asked that?
Judge Burnett. The judge. Okay. Okay. He said quote I don't know what an occult is.
It sounds like something bad but I'm not sure what it is.
Oh my god, sweetie child. So this is when Price asks if they are planning to now use a cult killing as the motive, and Fogelman says, quote, We have not made a final firm decision, but at this point I would say yes.
Okay. So then Burnett asked if he was going to link Jason with this occult motive, and Fogelman said...
Because he was like, okay, we can definitely, like, I get Jason, or I get Damien.
So you're going to link Jason in with this too, just so I'm clear.
And Fogelman said, quote, Your Honor, that is something that will have to be talked about with the expert.
It is my understanding that part of the involvement deals with the obsession with heavy metal music, change in forms of dress, wearing all black, And I believe that proof would show that Jason had 15 black t-shirts with the heavy metal thing.
And he had some kind of animal, either claws or teeth.
I think they said they were claws in his possession.
What? So. He has 15 black shirts, so he's a murderer.
Yep. Okay. Yep. Well, call me a fucking murderer then.
Because I probably got double that. Well, and the judge was like...
Are you seriously letting black, the defense was like, are you seriously letting black t-shirts be the reason to convict him?
Like, are we really pretending that that's okay?
And the judge was like, yeah, totally. Yep.
Oh my god, this is fucked. Like, what? So this is when the softball girls are brought in.
Remember I mentioned before a few teenage girls were like, I totally heard Damien talk about murdering those boys.
So they were like, cool, cool, cool. Like Damien was at a fucking softball game.
Well, and so this is a very convoluted chain of events.
So here's what it is. Jenny Deacon said Rachel Myers had overheard Damien confess at the softball game.
Okay. Rachel Myers said she overheard this from Shelly Wolf.
Okay. Shelly Wolf said she heard this from Shannon Bowles.
Shannon Bowles said she heard this from Michelle Carter.
Michelle Carter said she heard this from Shannon Bowles.
Oh, so we have a circle. Also, Michelle Carter.
That's scary. I know it is. Katie LaFoy said she heard Damien confess this at the softball game on the 1st of June.
And she said also with her who heard this was Jody Medford.
Jody Medford said she heard him confess during the week of May 24th.
And in her June 7th, 1993 statement, she said her sister Jackie Medford and another girl, Christy Van Vickle, were there.
But then when she testified, she said Jackie and Christy were not there.
Oh. Jackie Medford said she was with Jodi Medford and Christy Van Vickle when she heard him confess.
Jessica Medford said she overheard Katie Hendricks ask Damien if he killed the kids.
And then Christy Van Vickle said she was with Jackie Medford and heard him confess.
All these girls sound like basic bitches.
So, to me... If you're gonna spill the tea, spill the fucking tea.
This sounds... rock solid, right? No. Rock solid.
It sounds like you were passing a note and it got...
This is like a really bad game of telephone.
My favorite is when it goes through like six of them.
And then loops right back around. And you're like, no, it was Shelly.
But this one said she heard it from that one.
And then you said you heard it from the first one who said that she heard it from you.
I heard that my cousin heard, that my sister heard, that my sister heard from my cousin that this happened.
And then it turns into, well, then this girl asked him and he said he did.
But then the other one says, no, I heard him say it.
It's very rock solid. That's something. All right.
Very rock solid. Now here's when the defense decided to put Damien on the stand.
Oh, bad choice. And I guess they figured he was intelligent, he was very articulate, and that they could show he was just... just like a cocky kid and they could be like look see this is not a murderer but it like backfired in like a major way.
So the thing that they really harped on him for was they used a code...
So they use this coded cipher that Damien had done in prison.
And it was him like practicing using the cipher symbols because he was bored in prison.
Uh-huh. He had written out, like, in symbols Jason's name, his name, Domini's name.
Yeah. Just, like, people he knew. And he also wrote out Aleister Crowley's name.
And Aleister Crowley, I'm sure a lot of people listening know, he's like a famous occultist.
Okay. Wrote a ton of books. He's like, you know, a cult magician.
He's very controversial, so... Probably wasn't the best time to be writing his name down.
Of course not. And they, of course, asked about Aleister Crowley, and Damien said... he hadn't read any of his stuff but he said but then he added given the chance he would Oh, so he was just being truthful.
He was like, I know I haven't had the chance to read it, but I would if I could.
So then they asked him about Wicca and he told them what it was and he said it in a very like thoughtful way.
He said, quote, it acknowledges a goddess in a higher regard as a god because people have always said we're all God's children and men cannot have children.
It's basically a close involvement with nature.
Okay. Sounds nice. It does. But then they made it like, oh, so you're a witch. and then they went into this journal he had and the journal had like pentagrams on it and, you know, just random symbols that he was drawing on it.
Like, I doodled weird shit all over my stuff, too.
Right. So they said... They asked him about it and he said, this right here is like my home journal.
I had one for school and one for home. So then they said, I notice on the inside of the front cover there appears to be a couple quotes there.
Could you read each of these to the jury and tell them where they came from?
Oh no. So he says, so he quotes, life is but a walking shadow.
It is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
That's from A Midsummer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare.
Uh-huh. Which are like, damn. little Arkansas boy like poor Arkansas boys like quoting William Shakespeare like good for him And then he quotes, try getting back from me that which used to be.
And he says, that is off a Metallica tape called Injustice for All.
It talks about how warped the court systems are, stuff like that.
Oh, shit. And when he says that in the video, he's like, and he kind of like looks up and he's like, this is really bad timing.
Like his eyes just kind of like flit up at him like, well, fuck.
He's like, sorry, sir. Sorry. And he says the other one is. from the Twilight Zone quote I've kicked open a lot of doors in my time and I'm willing to wait for this one to open and when it does I'll be waiting Okay.
Yeah. All pretty chill quotes. So then they say on the back of it, on the back and the inside portion, the rest of the writings are in here.
Did you write all the items in here? And he says, no.
This one right here is lyrics to a tape.
Me and Jason, every time one of us would get a tape that the other one didn't have, We would make copies of it for each other and copy the lyrics down too.
Oh, that's so cute. And they say, all right.
And he says, and that's what this is from.
So they say, what's the name of this particular song?
And he says, Fade to Black. And they ask, and what rock group does that song?
And he says, Metallica. And they say... did you like Metallica music?
And he says, yes. And they said, and did you listen to that quite a bit?
And he says, yes. okay now again how fucking pertinent is this to a fucking murder right i don't understand right So then another thing that they asked him that was really interesting was they said, okay,
Also, there's the as part of the investigation, the West Memphis Police Department did a search warrant on the Crittenden County County Library. and they had the search warrant indicates that there was a book on witchcraft by cotton mather on witchcraft is that a book that you had checked out And he says yes I checked that out.
And they say and what was the reason that you checked that book out.
And he says just to read it. Most people who were looking at the cover, they would think that it was a witchcraft book, but it was really an anti witchcraft book.
That was wrote by a Puritan minister. It was on different ways that during the Salem persecution era, they used to find ways to torture people. or just keep them locked up until they would finally say, yeah, I'm a witch and all this, and then they would kill them.
Wow. Ironic as fuck on the stand. Right.
And so they say, all right. In addition, they they also the West Memphis Police Department seized a book on magic. do you remember checking out a book on magic in the past and he says if it's the one i'm thinking about yes and they say what type of magic was that about or do you recall that And he says that was about everything in the history of magic from like all religions, really like Hinduism and Buddhism.
Some things from Christianity like exorcisms, things like that.
And they say, and did you find that interesting to read?
And he says, yes. So this was all again.
They're being like, so did you like reading about magic, you motherfucking witch?
And he's just like... And meanwhile, he's sitting here being like...
Yeah, this one was written by a Puritan minister.
And it was going into the history of the persecution of witches.
It's like... This fucking kid is like really smart himself.
And then he's talking about he's reading a book about like Hinduism and Buddhism and Christianity and like just reading into all these religions.
Right. So you're a. fucking witch though and he's like he's like nah not yet like are you kidding me right now So one of the things that the jurors did was they wrote out pro and con lists for each witness and defendant.
Every juror. All of them were. That's how they like they just went through the deliberations on Damien's.
They had written in huge letters under a bunch of pros and cons, mostly cons.
They wrote in big capital letters, you are what you think about.
So they were literally saying, he thinks about magic, he thinks about dark shit, he's a dark shit.
Like they were literally, they were saying whatever's in your brain.
You are that. I don't think so. The most dangerous way of thinking...
Right. And they used it to convict him. Right.
That he thinks dark thoughts. So he did it.
Well, also, those aren't dark thoughts. He's just educating himself on different religions.
Well, and he also had like. angsty poems and stuff that were like you didn't have 17 that and it's like but they're literally saying you're into witchcraft you must be a killer Okay.
No, wrong. And it's like, nope. And that shows to me seeing that.
And I saw that in the Devil's Knot book.
That's where I saw the big letters, you are what you think about.
That is so scary. That to me stood out the most because it was like, Whoa.
Right. That's how you think. Dangerous as fuck.
They so the jury deliberated for four point five hours.
Wow. That's not long at all. Nope. And Friday, March 18th, 1994.
Jason and Damien were found guilty of capital murder.
My God. Did Jason ever get a chance to take the stand? uh no he did not take this in oh um they didn't want him to i don't think because they they didn't think it was a good idea for damien too but they didn't anyway um So then it took two hours and 20 minutes to decide that Jason would spend life in prison and Damien would be put to death by lethal injection.
Wow. Two hours and 20 minutes. And you have to look at that too and say... why would they not get the same, why would they both not get capital punishment if they both had equal involvement?
Exactly. Because Damien looked a little weirder and went on stand.
And to them, they took his books as weird.
That's the thing. That's why he was sentenced to death.
If we're going with Jesse's confession. jason and damien were equally as evil right we're going off of that confession which is what they were going on that's why it makes sense that they knew that confession was bullshit right they just wanted damien dead uh-huh that's what they wanted which is fucked up well and the saddest thing and i tried to find a clip of this but i cannot find the clip for the life of me if i can i'll like post it When the judge asks during the sentencing, do either of you have any legal reason to show the court or give the court as to why the sentence should not be imposed?
Jason quietly says because I'm innocent oh and then he says so the judge says pardon and he says because I'm innocent Right.
And the judge replies, well, the jury has heard the evidence and concluded otherwise.
What a fucking douchebag. That's so sad because he must have felt... Yeah.
I can't even imagine that feeling. Yeah.
I can't even fathom that. Now... What didn't get brought into this at all, and you may remember from the first part, was originally remember when the boys went missing?
There was a Bojangles restaurant and a random bleeding black man came in and he was all frazzled and he left blood everywhere.
Well, the police did get scrapings of that blood.
They never tested it. And it never got brought into this trial.
It never got asked about. And what happened was they were asked, they asked Brian Ridge, What happened with those, like, were they sent to the crime lab to be analyzed?
And Brian Ridge said they were never sent.
And he says, why weren't they? Why were they never sent?
And he goes, or he says they were never sent.
And he goes, that's correct. And he goes, where are the blood samples at this time?
And Brian Ridge says, I don't know, sir.
They're lost. You lost blood samples? And they say, they're lost?
How do you lose a fucking blood sample? Yes, sir.
So they had blood that they had scraped off that wall from a bleeding man from the same night who was also covered in mud.
Same time that these boys would have died and they lost it.
Interesting. And they lost it because they knew anything else would have put a shadow of a doubt on these three guys and they needed to nail them down.
Now, earlier I'd said that Dr. Vincent DeMeo... Mm-hmm. who did not agree with dr frank peretti about the serrated knife causing those injuries he later said those injuries that were um attributed to the serrated knife were probably caused by animals oh wow and he said the boys were found in water and they'd spent like something like 18 hours in water oh wow And he said that part of the woods was actually referred to as Turtle City by a lot of residents.
Oh, I love turtles. They were everywhere.
And in the third Paradise Lost documentary, a turtle breeder actually lets a snapping turtle bite down on his arm.
Oh, Jesus. And the marks are the exact same as found on the bodies.
Yeah. And the claw marks also matched turtle claws.
And it makes sense because they're not deep.
They're like just. Right. And also animals will go after like a dead body.
Animals, no matter where they are. Right.
An animal will go after the fleshiest parts or hanging parts.
Right. And that's like cheeks, like Steve... branch oh so one side of his face was like demolished i think it was just that happened to be the side that was the end Exposed to possibly a turtle or something else.
And then there's also the genitals of...
Christopher Byers, that could have been, and they do believe, in fact, six forensic and pathology experts, and with Dr. Vincent de Mayo, all believe that animals were the cause of that castration.
Because they never found his actual... Right.
So it would line up with that. And it was really like jagged.
And like it also just everybody's like, why the fuck did one of these kids get castrated?
Right. That's weird. And then why did one of them get hacked on one side of his face?
So all these forensic experts agreed. that they were animals right that did this it made the most sense and which puts it it makes the most sense too because it was like All this, like, torture and shit.
I mean, obviously these kids went through hell anyway.
Like, I'm not trying to diminish that in any way.
But these random things were, like, just not... adding up you're like why why was randomly like was he you know on his cheek and he was castrated and like it just doesn't line up Where did this happen?
And all that blood that they're missing at the crime scene.
It might have been in the water. Right. It could have washed away.
Because that could have been where it all happened.
So it could have been it. And... This is where we are going to stop for part two because I were part three.
Excuse me. Because in part four, we're going to go through what they went through in prison.
We're going to go through... like the support they got and the people who came out against them.
We're going to talk about John Mark Byers, Terry Hobbs.
We're going to talk about some of the parents of the victims flipped and decided that these three boys are not guilty, which is crazy.
And awesome. But and then we're going to talk about the Alfred plea, all of the different evidence that came forward after this.
So we've got a whole nother. episode on this and then we will be finally closing the door on this case Is it weird that I want to be kind of bummed when this is over?
I know, I kind of am too because I feel like I'm like, but then again, I'm like my whole like brain. has been enveloped in this case for like weeks now.
Yeah, that's true. I could use a detour.
Yeah. But I'm excited. I'm excited to go into part four.
So hopefully you enjoyed this and were horrified by this at the same time.
Enjoyable and mortifiable. Yep. Probably not a word, but...
It's not, but I like it. You're welcome.
So if you want to hear more about Instagram, go to ours. uh at morbid podcast my brain didn't work anymore if you want to find us on twitter we're at a morbid podcast if you'd like to send us a gmail morbid podcast at gmail.com join the facebook group morbid colon a true crime podcast we hope that you keep listening and we hope you keep it Weird.
Nope. Nope. Really don't keep it weird in Arkansas in 1993.
Don't. Don't do it. Don't be doing that.
Don't do it. Bye. Bye bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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