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I am your host, Chris Duffie.
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Thank you. Thank you now on to today's episode We have got the poet Sara Kay talking about how to enrich your everyday life with poetry Sarah is one of my all -time favorite artists, and she's also one of my all -time favorite people.
I've had the great privilege of knowing her since college, and it's such a gift to have seen her work over these years and to just know someone as talented as she is.
We are re -releasing this conversation that Sarah and I had back in 2021 today for a couple reasons.
One is I think it's a fantastic conversation, I think it's one of the best episodes we've ever done, and I think that it really speaks to this moment, even though we recorded it several years ago.
Another reason, though, is because Sarah's new collection of poems, which is called A Little Daylight Left was just published this month.
A Little Daylight Left is such a beautiful collection of poems, and I really hope that you will check it out.
And to give you a taste of how great it is and how great Sarah is, here is a new poem from Sarah.
This is from the new collection, and this is Sarah performing in front of a live audience in New York City at the venue Cavion.
Miles from any shoreline I frequently miss entire days caught in my brain's spiderwebs but if I happen to look up in time to notice that the darkness still has a little daylight left to swallow I will ivy up the fire escape to catch whatever embers of the day are still slow dying behind New Jersey and last week through the fog of my loneliness I realize the living room was slippery pink, which I knew meant a light show must be on display.
So with a quickness I reserved for emergencies, I scampered to the roof and sure enough an explosion of upside down clementine cotton candy cloud wisps was tie -dying the Hudson River neon.
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What else could I possibly do, but swing wide the doors of my delight to this patron saint of unbelonging, fragile and whole and so far from home?
If you too have been the one nobody asked to dance, I have a I'd love to introduce you to.
And I don't have any proof, but one time the wind or my ancestors or unseasonal warmth carried three hawks to my kitchen windowsill to rattle my coffin to cocoon and two of them left but one of them stayed, eyed me through the glass like a promise or a dare.
So lately I am trying to pick up when the universe calls." OK, we're going to be right back with more from poet Sarah Kay in just a moment.
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We're back! We're here with Sara Kay, an incredible poet, who I also I'm glad to say is one of my very good friends.
My name is Sara Kay, I am a poet and an educator from New York City.
Great, and now can you do one where you choose a different name?
Oh yeah, of course.
Hello, my name is Chris Duffy and I am a stand -up comedian and New Yorker masquerading as a Los Angelino. Okay thank you so much. I'm so glad to have you here.
Why don't we do the most stereotypical question first, which is how did you get involved in poetry in the first place?
Well, how did I get involved in poetry in the very first place is when I was a kid, I used to run around the house and ask my mom.
And by ask, I really mean like demand.
I would be like, poem, and I would make my mother write it down for me.
So if I'm feeling particularly cheeky, sometimes I will say that I've been writing poems since before I could write because - So when you said a poem, you were like, I'm dictating a poem, you write this down.
It wasn't like, you give me a poem.
No, correct. I was like, is anyone, quick, someone take this down, mark this down for later.
But I would say actually that my real origin of my relationship to poems is that when I was in elementary school, kids, we didn't go to the cafeteria until middle school.
And so from kindergarten through fourth grade, everyone either brought their lunch to school with them or the school provided lunch. and so every single day for those years my parents took turns writing a little poem on a piece of like neon colored paper that they would fold and put in my lunch box and so neither of them are poets I don't think either of them would consider themselves writers and now looking back it seems like a little too neat of an origin story because it seems like they were planting seeds for a poet, but I assure you, it was not that.
It was just one of many ways that they demonstrated to me that I was loved.
But basically what it did is it made it so that my relationship to poems was that poems became something that was dependable like clockwork.
I knew I could expect it every day, but it was also a surprise.
It was also a gift. It was intimate, it was It was this sign of care from someone who loved me enough to craft it.
And so I think that's really what started my relationship to poems, is what I call the lunchbox poems. Well that also gets into one of the other things I wanted to ask you about, which is how do you incorporate wordplay and poetry into your day to day life?
You know, all kinds of different ways, which frankly I don't explicitly think about until someone thoughtful like you asks me to.
But I would say, like, for example, when I was in college, I, every single year, would make Valentines for all of my pals on Valentine's Day, and I would write each of them a personalized limerick.
And, like, I feel like everything about me screams, like, the kid who brought Valentines for everybody in class.
Like, that seems, like...
You have big Valentine limerick energy, for sure.
Really vague Valentine limerick energy.
So as a person who knows you, I also know, like, you love to do a Halloween costume that's a wordplay.
I feel like you're someone who cherishes when you find, like, a funny phrase or a pun or something really that is playing with language.
You are, like, I got to share this with people, and you start sending it around, take a photo or whatever it is you document.
I mean, it's, it's maybe an affliction.
Oh, it's certainly a disease.
There's no doubt about it.
I know that there are so many people who have less positive responses, to puns specifically, but I just find them so delightful.
And the Halloween thing happened because many years ago I had a dream, like I was asleep, had a full actual dream.
And in the dream I was late to the Halloween Day parade in New York City, which I try to to go to every year and in my dream I was like oh no I don't have a costume like what am I gonna do and so in the dream I like went to my closet I pulled out this like hardcore leather jacket and like a collar with spikes on it I think and I found a blank white t -shirt and I wrote this elaborate trigonometry equation and the answer to the equation would have been like cosine x like c -o -s -x but instead of putting in the answer I put like a blank line X and so my costume was that I was a rebel without a cause
and when I woke up from the dream this doesn't translate to audio but I'm shaking my head furiously how dare you wordplay atrocity that is.
When I woke up from the dream like my first thought was like you gotta be Kidding me.
Like my subconscious could have been working on like, we have real serious issues.
Like you could have been solving climate change.
And instead you were out here like, Oh, you know what though?
What about this trigonometry pun?
Like that's what we were working on in the depths of our sleep.
But then of course I was like, well, I have the opportunity to make my literal dreams come true.
Why would I not do this?
And so I had to do it.
and now it's become a tradition of terrible pun costumes that I can't outrun.
What kind of advice do you give people on how they can incorporate wordplay into their lives like this?
Like how do you get your brain to start working on that while you're sleeping?
It really has to do with habits of observation and giving yourself the opportunity to relish in your own delight.
So, like, I am genuinely delighted, many times a day, by the smallest elements of my life, by the most mundane details.
But I think most people when they experience delight, they experience it in the moment and then it flies through their hands and they're on to the next moment.
And so the poetry work, I think, is when a moment of delight happens to, instead of letting fly away as fast as it usually does, to just pin it just for long enough to ask yourself, like, what about this is delightful to me, and what about this could I maybe try to find a way to share, whether that's in the form of a poem or by snapping a photograph or whatever.
Like, I think that's where that comes from.
How do you technically keep track of the words or phrases or things that delight you?
Do you have a notebook, is it an app in your phone?
What are you doing?
Yeah You can't see it, but i'm holding it up.
I have a little notebook that I Keep nearby at all times.
Um, I would say that this notebook is incredibly Unpoetic, like I don't do any poetry writing for the most part in this notebook.
It's much more Record -keeping and it is really about those moments where something happens and I can see it's going to fly away really fast and so I just jot it down really just to to note it for later, and then when it is later, and I'm like, you know what?
Today is a writing day, I need to get some writing done.
Then I crack open this notebook and I have these little, I think of them as Hansel and Gretel breadcrumbs back to moments where I was genuinely struck by something.
And I can look at them and go, yeah, that was a really wild thing, or, oh, man, look at how I've jotted this same thing down three times, it's clearly something that's sticking with me.
Or allowing that notebook to show me what my brain has been snagging on recently, so that when I have time to really meditate on it or to really dig into it, that I have clues.
Because I think so many people want to write and then sit down in front of a blank screen or a blank piece of paper and are like, OK, world inspire me now.
And honestly, that is very hard to do it that way, I think.
So this is a little trick of just marking down these little delights and curiosities so that when I have the writing time, I have these little breadcrumbs to return to.
Do you have any sort of writing practice or routine where you go back through those ideas and sort them out into actual writing or is it less formulaic and more like you just go back if you feel inspired?
I think a little bit of both.
I think sometimes whatever has been floating around in my brain shows up strongly enough and pulls me to the desk.
And sometimes I have to be intentional about making writing time, I also think that so much of my joy in connection with poetry is the writing and is the sharing of my own work, but is also just being around other people that love poetry.
And so, just getting to talk about poetry and analyze text and discuss it with folks who also are passionate about poetry in and of itself gets my enthusiasm engine running and so that also I think really helps significantly in pushing me in my own process too.
Also I think with an art form like poetry sometimes people assume that that is a very solitary art form which it can be certainly and like when I'm keeping my notebook that's something I do for myself by myself but at least in my case I didn't fall in love with poetry in a bar and it was because that space was where poetry felt communal and urgent that it really captivated me and so that continues to be an element of poetry that I really respond to is the ability to be in community with other people and to share poetry with other people my own and others I mean very few things make me as alive,
make me feel as alive as when I read a poem by someone else and I go, oh my God, I needed this poem right now.
Like they found language for a thing that I couldn't find language for and they did it and I have it in my hands.
Can you believe this?
And that feeling is just plugging my soul into an amplifier or something, right?
As an educator, what's your favorite exercise for getting people who don't think of themselves as poets into writing poetry?
I would say that one thing that I'm always thinking about is trying to lower the stakes around both poetry writing and also performing because those are two things that I think people have a tendency to really raise the stakes for themselves.
So, I usually like to start workshops with asking folks to write some kind of list, because a list as a form is much more accessible, I think, immediately, or at least much more familiar to people.
People write lists all day long in their life, and so being tasked with a list doesn't feel as terrifying as being tasked with a poem, I think.
So, in my TED Talk, I mentioned writing 10 things I know to be true and that is a list that I genuinely return to quite often and it's exciting to see, you know, what I know to be true today that suddenly changes the next time I write that list and what are things that I know to be true that continue to be true to me for years down the line, it's like a kind of amazing self -diagnostic actually, so that's one that I recommend to a lot of people.
That one's pretty broad, sometimes people like having more limitation or more specifics, so another one I sometimes like is things I should have learned by now.
Is a list I really enjoy, Of course, there's ye olde reasons you should date me.
Okay, ye olde reasons you should date me.
I love that list. Reasons you should not date me.
These are just some...
The point is to allow yourself the opportunity to take a peek at what you already have going on in your brain, without worrying that it's not poetic enough or deep enough, or, you know, good enough or worthy of poetry.
Any of these lists that give you opportunities to see which of these seeds want to turn into poems is a great place to start.
Okay, we're gonna give you all a little break for those seeds to start germinating.
And while you do that, we are going to do some ads and then we will be right back.
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We're back with poet Sarah Kay.
One thing that I heard you say a long time ago, I actually can't remember if you said this to me personally, or if this was something that you said more publicly.
But you talk about - Was it Chris Duffy, You're The Fuddiest Fan Alive?
No, it definitely was.
I think I said that publicly.
It was not that. Yeah.
That was definitely in public.
It was Chris, you have to stop what you're doing.
Stop right now. Rethink your life.
I heard you say that you try and go through your life with your arms open, like to catch whatever comes your way rather than with your arms crossed across your chest in a way that makes you look cool.
like that that is the sign of being cool is blocking things when you try and have your hands open to catch. And I think about that so often, I think about that so much, that idea.
And I was just wondering if you could talk about that a little bit more and then I want to discuss it with you but like what do you mean by that, by having your hands open?
Katie Grant I think that, um, so the specific instance that I think you're talking about, if I remember correctly, it was a long time ago that I He gave that talk.
But I think I was talking specifically about the sort of terrifying experience of being a teenager specifically, and the messaging that teenagers receive about how to be earnest, to be vulnerable, to admit to feeling anything is weakness and will be used against you, and therefore to refuse to let anything affect you or to show that anything has affected you is the safer path basically.
And so it's a mode of protection to move through the world being unaffected.
or to appear to be ineffective at least. And a lot of what I do in my work with young people is to try and both tell them and also show them, hopefully, the benefits of the risk that to risk being vulnerable and to risk being earnest and to risk having the world affect you scary, and also worth it.
And I think perhaps what is missing from that conversation, or what is missing from that initial comment as you remember it, is just an acknowledgment that people who do walk through the world with their arms crossed, metaphorically, that is not a character flaw that is often a result of learning how to survive and that their circumstances has necessitated that kind of self -protection.
And so it is also the case that I don't just want to encourage people to be open and vulnerable willy -nilly and subject themselves to danger or anything else.
I want to be part of the world building that makes it safe for everyone to be able to walk through the world that way.
I was gonna ask for people who are aspiring poets and writers but, but I also think it applies to you now too which is how can people get better at writing and using language?
What do you do when you have this desire to be somewhere and you're not quite there yet?
How do you get better?
I think reading is a huge part of it, I think anything That you want to be good at it helps to know What is possible or what has been possible thus far?
and Being able to have access to as many examples as you can get your eyeballs on Just opens more and more doors I think in my experience.
So reading and reading and reading helps.
Not even necessarily reading in the specific genre that you're writing in right?
So it doesn't mean that if you want to be a poet, you should only be reading poetry.
But I think just seeing the way that people use language, craft narrative, accomplish an argument so much has been done and made for us to feast on that I think it would be silly to not spend a lot of time soaking in all of that good writing.
so that is the first one, perhaps not not a not a particularly controversial tip.
It's so true. I mean, if you read someone's writing and then you read something fascinating, whatever it is, then you go, oh, well, that is a trick that people can use.
I had never even thought that you could do that.
Absolutely. Whatever.
Whether it's you can write the transcript of a phone call and that can be your dialog or you can write a voicemail, it can be text messages, it can be writing without verbs.
I mean, all of the things that you see happen and you think, oh, that is expanding the realm of what's even possible in my brain.
And then the other thing that I think is helpful, and this doesn't work all the time and it doesn't work for everybody, but when I am wearing my educator hat, I try to think a lot about orienting my work away from product and towards process.
So, by that I mean I never want to be grading a student on a poem because who am I to determine the arbitrary goodness or badness of this poem.
That is unhelpful to me.
What I can do is ask this student to learn how to give feedback and how to take feedback, learn how to attempt several drafts, learn how to collaborate with another student, learn how to take risks in performance, learn how to work on the skills that are going to serve them beyond just this one single poem in their process as a writer and as a performer or a person who says words right.
So because I think that when we focus too much on the product it turns it into something that feels fail able and that has the the risk of really damaging someone's relationship to poetry, frankly.
So because I think that way when I'm thinking about my students I would also say can we have that kind compassion for ourselves as writers.
Yeah it's interesting when i'm writing scripts if i'm working on a tv project one of the things that i always think is that the the point is not to write one perfect script that's impossible the point is to get to draft 10 as quickly as i can and sometimes that requires a very bad draft one so that draft two can be a little bit better and then draft 10 will inevitably be better than one or two ever could be and i think about the same thing, right?
Like one of the things that I love about podcasting is that it's just inherently iterative like it comes out every week.
And so by the end of a year, I listened back and I liked this episode better than the other episodes, hopefully, right fingers crossed.
But I think just by doing it and making it not about each one being perfect, you inherently get better.
And I think the people and I'm including myself in this, but people who focus on making sure that the one thing they put out is as good as it could possibly be they often end up never putting out anything at all because it's kind of impossible to make one thing be as good as it could ever possibly be yeah or another way of thinking about that is because like let me not sit here and pretend that i'm not that and like let me not point fingers when i should be pointing them at myself like i'm absolutely somebody who is um a perfectionist or if not a perfectionist than just very product -oriented sometimes
and trying to work on that.
Yes, absolutely. I think that when you think about it less as a product, because if it's a product, then you finish it one time, it's done, and it doesn't matter if you're still curious or have more to say, but if you think about it as process, well, you want to get to the bottom of this hole that you're digging and you want to see what is the treasure that's buried down there.
Exactly. And sometimes you like find something and you're like, amazing, wait is there more down there and you keep going you know like that happens too i mean i'll be writing poems about my little brother for as long as the two of us are on this earth right so i i have written one poem and i'm not like well figured him out yeah locked him up phil you're done we're coming to the end of this interview so what is one idea or book or movie or a piece of music that has made you a better human?
What's one thing? Yeah, I knew this question was coming and I still didn't prepare thoroughly enough for it.
One idea that has made me a better human is when I realized that I could love someone and think about them all the time and care about them and be invested in their life and they can't know that unless I show it to them.
And this was important, especially when I was traveling all the time, because I was physically far away from pretty much everyone in my life.
And I was so sure that it was obvious that I missed everyone, but no one knows that.
that's happening in my brain.
And so I think figuring out that I needed to find small ways to demonstrate that, and it didn't require a lot, you know, that's a text message, that's a silly photo, that's a package in the mail, whatever it is.
But I think just putting two and two together to say like, yeah you just caring in your head is not the same thing as you expressing it in a tangible way that someone else can and experience it, I think that really helped make me a better friend and a better person.
That's beautiful and so, so important and true.
Well, Sara I always love talking to you.
It's always just such an absolute pleasure.
Thank you so much for being on the show and thanks for sharing your work and your wisdom with us.
Thanks for having me.
That is it for today's episode.
I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to Be a Better Human.
Thanks so much to our guests for this episode, Sarah Kay.
On the TED side, this show is brought to you by Abhimanyu Das, who's penning an ode, Daniella Balerezzo, who's writing a haiku, Frederica Elizabeth Josifov, who is scripting a sonnet, Ann Powers, who's crafting a limerick, and Kara Newman, who's vibing on a Villanelle.
From PRX Productions, How to Be a Better Human is brought to you by the allegorical Jocelyne Gonzalez, the rhetorical Pedro Rafael Rosado, and the literal Sondra Lopez -Monsalve.
Thanks to you for listening.
If you enjoyed our show, please share this episode with a friend and leave us a positive review.
We really appreciate it, and it makes a big difference.
Thanks so much. Have a great week.
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