Hey everyone, I hope you're well.
Playing and making the games that you all love.
You're joining me, your host lead level designer, Max Pez.
But not just me.
I have an incredible, beautiful face, great design mind and one that is constantly given to our community of level design the incredible senior level designer, Tim Spanix.
I hope I pronounced your last name correct there, mate. so surprisingly that's quite on point yeah hi everyone and hi max uh thanks for having me on i think it's been a long time coming as well really yes no i was saying to you before we got this i don't i don't get how it slipped my mind when you should have been on here much sooner but uh thank you for joining nonetheless mate so still very glad to be here yeah and for those of you who don't know tim is also known as tim does design which is another great youtube channel and resource for all of you who want to know more about level design i'll be putting a link down to that as well as your socials mates down below so please go show your love and support for him as well um i was going to say there's so many questions i have so many ways to begin but why not first talk about the element of What got you into level design specifically?
How is it you got into the industry?
Right.
I think it's very typical what I've heard from others and others that have been in your podcast before as well, where you know, like playing games and even making mods and stuff when I was younger, you don't realize that games are made by actual people.
You're so kind of removed from that that, yeah, you don't really think of that as a potential job.
But it really I think at least the modding and stuff started when I was playing Age of Empires 1 and it had the scenario editor in it that allowed you to like, make your own maps and place your trees and like all that kind of stuff.
And then every game that I played afterwards, I was like, okay, so where's the scenario editor?
How do I make my own stuff for this?
Um, so yeah, like ran into a modding scene around it was originally uh, I think it was midtown madness, and then uh started playing tibia, this uh MMORPG, kind of in the style of Ultima online.
Yeah.
And uh yeah, they had a whole community around it as well, with um, like custom clients and servers and hosting and uh, like the they're completely custom made editor and stuff that they shared.
Uh, so started making my own. little private world kind of private server thing with my custom NPCs.
And even though I didn't know how to script like you, mess around with Lewis, script a little bit to to customize stuff and use the Sprite editor to build your own things.
So from there it kind of.
Yeah, it kept rolling and a lot of stuff I played and then in high school started making counter-strike maps with friends and that sort of stuff.
Um, until I, I didn't realize even at that time that it was a potential career option.
So what a lot of people will have with parents and stuff.
And when you're in school it's like oh, I want to make games.
But your parents say, no, you have to become a doctor or a lawyer or something like that.
For me, it was kind of the inverse of that.
I figured like maybe I'm going to go to law school, something along those lines.
Oh, wow.
And then my mom made me realize it came with a newspaper article of like hey, they have this game school here, like in the Netherlands now.
And I'm like, oh, wait, that was an option.
Yeah.
So uh yeah, then then kind of starting to prep for that and build my portfolio, and yeah, ended up going to art school uh, in Utrecht uh, and came well prepared, like with a portfolio and everything ready to go.
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Man.
And can you, because a portfolio is such an important part of everyone's career, right?
As we get into industry, apply for jobs, change roles.
Your portfolio at that stage, can you write down kind of what you included for that one?
I'm quite curious.
Oh yeah like, i think a portfolio like it really needs to kind of suit what you're applying for.
Um then, i didn't really.
I think i had some awareness of it, but i also just kind of put everything vaguely related in it.
Yeah yeah, um so like mock-ups in photoshop of potential, like game ideas and uis, to um like the tbr, like custom server things, to uh like shots of like counter-strike maps, uh little kind of paper prototypes that i've done.
There's really like a like, even just like 3d modeling bad 3d modeling stuff uh, that i did initially with like exercise mod tool, and then switch to uh like a pirated copy of autodesk maya because, i don't know, when you're 15 you don't have money for that kind of stuff.
No, for especially the money they're asking for.
Absolutely goddamn no.
So no, But for legal reasons we'll say you got it the legal way here on this.
Hey, the moment I started doing stuff professionally, I bought a license immediately.
Yeah, no, that's it.
And I guess then from this mate what was the games that inspired you, that were hooking you right?
You've talked about that with Tibia, and Counter-Strike was ones that given you opportunities to create.
But what were the games that really kind of spoke to you that made you want to get into the mediums?
Hmm interesting, because exploration has always been like a big thing for me, even though like I don't, like I've worked on like competitive shooter games and like kind of tight maps and combat and stuff as well.
But something that always spoke to me personally is just the feeling that there's like something more.
You know that like the yeah, kind of that freedom of discovery, that inspired legend of zelda, for example um, like even linked to the past, which is a lot more linear than uh, the original it, i think as a kid it didn't really feel that way.
You know like it felt like an actual tangible place.
Yeah, discover as well, and that's yeah that's, that's been big for me.
Uh yeah, the whole zelda series that i grew up with, 100 right okay, which one's your favorite?
I'm gonna put you on the spot quickly.
Do you have a favorite?
Yeah well, it's tricky, because nostalgia wise, uh like link to the past, was like the main one for me, and ocarina of time was the first one.
I'd really felt like insane, like how open and big it felt.
Um, but i think like if i were to replay one right now, it would be breath of the wild, over over tears uh, tears of the kingdom, i think, breath of the wild as well.
Yeah, Great shout.
Yeah.
And I'm curious mate, on this one, because you know you talk about then going off to learn and to study.
And you yourself.
You're an incredible designer and I know there's been incredible people that have come from the Netherlands, right.
But your industry, especially at that time in the Netherlands, isn't exactly huge.
And I've seen quite a few people who, you know, go off, study, but there's not –
As many studios, like the UK, I'm very fortunate where there are a lot.
How did you find that transition coming out to then getting your first job?
Well, my first internship I did do in the Netherlands at a company called Isotex.
They later went bankrupt.
But I worked on March of War as a level designer there as well fantastic, um.
But by then like, i did an internship uh well, i managed to arrange an extended internship.
So basically, do another semester uh, to work uh, for a game company in finland.
Oh wow um, because i was an exchange student there before uh, when i already arranged the internship in the netherlands and uh yeah, i made some contacts there and started working together um, So I figured OK, I want to go back to Finland, keep working with these people.
So did that for half a year.
Then back to the Netherlands again for like half a year to graduate, while doing freelance work and staying in touch with the people in Finland.
And we decided we would co-found a company with 10, 11 people in Finland.
So yeah, like the moment I was done with my last school assignment, like I moved to Finland and we set up an indie studio there.
Fucking hell.
That is a big, big taking on.
How was all of that?
It kind of just all gradually, like, happened, naturally.
The same as, like, I've now worked in eight countries altogether.
That's incredible, dude.
I never really intended for any of that to happen.
It just as opportunities presented themselves, I just went for it and decided, like you know, might as well go for it.
Yeah.
Oh, dude.
And with that, I guess there's so much to founding a company, I can imagine.
I guess what were some of the bigger lessons you took away from that?
Right.
Because most people go like you did your internship.
Most people traditionally junior learn from more senior membership.
I imagine you're doing a lot and a lot of self teaching at that point.
Uh, definitely it helped that by that time there was already a lot of stuff out there in the internet.
So, uh, to anyone that creates like learning content, game industry wise or in general, thank you.
Thank you very much.
It's, uh, yeah, it, it helped me tremendously.
And as the internet grew up, more and more stuff kind of became available as well.
Um, but yeah, going to game development events as well uh, meeting people in the industry, uh speakers, you know, like all of that helps a lot as well.
But uh, starting a company with a few people and it then kind of took off quite rapidly.
Uh, like our game critical ops, like i think now has over 250 million installs or something damn dude, but it was.
It was getting into the millions really quickly.
Uh, from the moment we soft launched the game.
So to then open up new studios, expand the team to somewhere between 70 and 80 people.
Um, you start off as just like the game designer, but then suddenly your lead designer and you're managing a team and um, i got thrusted into that pretty quick.
Um, so big takeaways are that I was very just product focused.
Um, so I I don't think I had the maturity or insight to kind of not just manage the team in terms of what they were building, but help them like how are they doing?
What do they want to progress towards?
Like uh, what are their strengths and how do they fit with the team and all the overarching stuff that that comes with leadership, that isn't just making the game.
Uh, I learned a lot, especially in hindsight, I think, regarding that.
Yeah, I think people don't understand the amount that comes to managing people, right?
Like it is a different skill set than, as you said, more product focused.
It is a different thing.
So what made you want to transition then to going to more of the I guess level design focus kind of roots into you know uh, contributing to so many incredible games that you have.
Well, level design is kind of how everything started for me since i was 10 years old uh, like what i've been doing yeah, and uh, after critical force, like i was quite burned out towards the end of my five years with the company.
Um, so when I started interviewing for other companies, uh I think I had a lead game designer offer and another like senior level designer offer.
And then the one I ended up taking, uh, was to work on that island too, uh, with deep silver.
Um, and I think I'm like, even though the project looked cool and interesting, but the main reason I ended up taking that one over the others uh, wasn't understanding, like with the lead designer on it, that you know just coming out of like borderline burnout and they would just kind of let me do what I love doing.
And not have me too involved with, like all the management and too many meetings.
And so I could kind of just focus on on what I enjoyed, without too much of the hassle around it.
And then kind of refound my love for level design.
And yeah, yeah, just wanted to work on cool stuff.
No, man.
And you have worked on some amazing stuff.
And I kind of wanted to ask, because the stuff you worked on ranges in terms of the style of levels that you've made right?
And I guess I'm curious, because so many projects are different and varied.
I guess, how do you adapt to each new project?
Is there any kind of method to it?
What do you think that you can take from previous projects, versus having to learn a whole new thing?
Well, there's always soft skills in general, design rules and principles and kind of methods of working that you can always take along with you that are quite universal.
Um, and i started off working almost exclusively on multiplayer stuff yeah, which is something that i also did mostly when i was younger, from counter-strike maps to yeah uh, starcraft maps, for example as well, and uh, like the, the tv up server, like everything kind of revolved around people and how they interact with the space, so to from that work on march of war and then like an fps game.
After making counter-strike maps and something that was very similar to it, like that was At least skill-wise and types of map, I made something that I was already familiar with.
So that allowed me, I guess, to not be overwhelmed with all the new stuff that did come with it.
That Island 2 was a bit of a switch, even though I still mostly worked on the Neighborhood Watch co-op mode that came out later.
Um, that's also has, like you know, bigger multiplayer component than even the single player campaign you can play with others.
That was like a little bit of a jump, a little bit like of a gap, where everything is way more narrative focused and and uh, kind of different pacing.
Um, But I think that was an excellent bridge to then go to Star Wars Outlaws after that, which was way more like world building narrative focused.
So I think I've been quite fortunate, or maybe it's it happened because it made sense with my skill set and experience that I don't think I've done a complete 180 at any kind of project switch.
Like everything was kind of like a step away from differentiating itself.
Which might be your portfolio kind of reflects what kind of jobs you're most likely to get.
As well right,
Like someone that has worked exclusively on strategy games, might not be as likely to get a job offer on an FPS game right.
Because the portfolio and experience might not match.
Yeah, but every project is new.
Every game that you work on is different.
So a lot of it is when I join a new studio or projects and it's always like heavy immersion and try to like play all the games in the genre and like look at reference, talk to everybody on the team.
Yeah, like early on start building your own prototypes and stuff to get your eye in.
When it's something like Star Wars, then it's like read the book on, like Canto Bight, for example, because I worked on that planet as well.
Rewatch all the movies, everything on Disney, like comic books, like just kind of full immersion, and try to get as much of like a broad understanding around the topic before you get into the nitty gritty and start building stuff.
No, that's really interesting because i think it's a really important part of this whole reference gathering, as you said, immersing yourself in the law uh, i think it is very important.
Now i do want to pick your brain about uh, arc raiders, as you so happily say.
Put it across your chest.
But the first thing i'll talk about is now.
You and i spoke and came across each other because of the work we put up online and i'm just curious mate, What made you create?
Tim Does Design.
You mentioned all the people that helped you.
Is it a sign of you giving back?
How did that come to be?
I think one of the inspirations for it was initially Tommy Norberg that made some fantastic level design snippets and sketches and drawings like really well illustrating certain principle and techniques and tips for level design.
Um, so followed him on twitter and checked out a lot of his stuff and um, i kind of i i really started to dive deep into uh, level design books and podcasts and game industry stuff to to try and get myself to the next level as a level designer.
So i did a lot of self-study in my free time, while working on that island too as well.
Um, And I figured, as I was learning about all these different topics and gathering all this stuff, I'd start a little blog to kind of condense it and kind of share snippets.
So instead of like the little images, but do little blog posts about learnings too.
It helps me kind of memorize and yeah, like the things take a little bit better route if you do something with it.
But also because I've been profiting so much from other people sharing stuff, I'm like okay, I can return that a little bit.
And then from the first kind of little blog articles that I wrote and seeing Tommy Norberg's little drawings and snippets, I kind of thought like what if I condense this into like a short format clip that is easily digestible?
Um, especially because i'm pretty add and like, sometimes i struggle, focus on stuff i was thinking initially i was thinking what if i do like a one minute or like two minute, like kind of short condensed, like introduction to topic, kind of video yeah, and uh, kind of stuck with that, sometimes expand it, write out some different little things with it?
But uh Yeah no, the main thing is a combination of self-study and wanting to help other people learn about the industry, about the level design field, and kind of give back after all the stuff that I've been able to enjoy from others as well.
Yeah.
Well, no, man, you did have done still are doing a great, great things, man.
So I want to say thank you as well, because I've learned a lot from your videos as well, mate.
So I appreciate more people sharing, right.
I think that is just important for for all of us, for to learn and grow.
And you mentioned yeah, i'm actually uh yeah, because we we talked about this a little bit before the recording as well that i'm on a bit of a hiatus with the channel at the moment.
Uh, because it can be tricky to balance, like moving to a new country, getting familiar, like doing a full-time job, having a social life and kind of everything around it.
Plus then doing stuff like that on the side, like it can take a lot out of you.
Um, so I have been taking a break from it, but I'm going to see if I can find a way to uh to set some time aside to uh maybe not as frequently for the moment, but to see if I can do a little bit more level design content for the channel as well.
Well, no, I'm sure we'd all be better off for you doing that one, mate.
So we hope you find time with it.
And just one last question, mate, because you talked about moving countries.
You've done that a few times.
I've moved countries as well for the job.
I guess, with the fact that the world is ever more connected and opportunities are now more not necessarily at the moment with the industry that troubles its face, but I mean, you can go work in a lot of amazing places and guess what would be your tips for moving abroad, for a job or anything, if you have any?
Well, it helps uh, if you're joining a bigger studio.
That's for sure, because you like a lot of bigger international studios are more or less like half local population and half international people from everywhere else.
Yeah, so you immediately have this network around you to do social things with, Whether it's like sports clubs, playing football or climbing or you know, like Magic, the Gathering clubs and like all that stuff exists to get to know people after work drinks, people that can help you with relocation and tips about living in the place.
Um so, as if it's your first move abroad, like it might be a good idea to work for a bigger studio first.
Maybe at least you have that network around you or um, if there is like a game industry network like uh, igda in finland uh, like that kind of stuff um, that can help you tremendously to to kind of be surrounded by like-minded people immediately.
Um, but I think, especially around moving, don't try to do too much at once, like just moving to a new country and getting familiar with all the systems and how to live life and how to do your shopping is already a lot.
So just move slowly and every little thing that you learn and do is already an achievement.
So uh yeah, I think after living somewhere for a year or something, you'll like have your routine established and you'll feel more comfortable around things.
So, yeah. no good advice mate now on to our main meat and potatoes of this topic congratulations to you and the team on arc raiders mate it's yeah huge success i think we can both both say on that one yeah thank you so much i'm really proud of this team like there's so many really amazing people like around me every day in the studio and you know i joined the project relatively late like i joined a year ago now uh so there's some people on the team that have been working on this for like the last six years or longer um and i know that there were times during development quite a couple of times where they weren't sure where it was going like like almost cancelled like is it gonna ship like what do we do with this and then manage to pivot and find the fun and yeah find the direction so um like kudos to everyone that's worked on this really and how they pulled this off and i'm really just glad to be part of the team and help make some cool stuff no man and it's definitely some amazing stuff that you've you've all made and i'm curious mate like you know we talked about each game is a different game and different rules for this you have as you said worked on a lot of different multiplayer games as well I guess, how does this one differ, right?
I imagine the map sizes is one aspect, and also the fact it's PVP PVE, but I guess what do you think?
Some of the bigger differences when designing levels for our creators.
It's a, it's still one that I'm kind of trying to wrap my head around honestly because um, our creators has so many systems that interact with each other that are really interesting and lead to very unpredictable kind of gameplay and like every day, like as developers, we share clips about uh, like community clips and like from reddit and and all platforms, and we're like holy, you can do that kind of stuff.
Um, i i do find that a lot of the kind of typical level design rules don't always apply here, or not always as relevant.
Of course, you have typical stuff like railing height and what feels comfortable to lean and shoot over and do you feel like you're in cover?
And all that kind of stuff.
Sure.
But like sidelines, for example, like I've been like on Stella Montes, I've really initially like tried to avoid like the really really long sidelines.
But then if you look like at the other maps, like the dam and varied city, you will have huge corridors or just like open field where there's massive sidelines, and it's not a problem.
Yeah, due to things like the effective combat range, but also the pve and pvp, like combined elements, like you can start shooting from a long distance, but then you'll most likely get flanked by someone that hears you, that's nearby from the other side anyway.
So is there often a point in engaging someone that far away?
You know?
Um, so there's a lot of those like little principles that when you're making a counter-strike map like, you absolutely have to avoid, like making something too sniper, heavy and stuff.
But here that doesn't really apply and you have to take into account how do the enemies move and which kind of enemies and what.
What like, what are they suited for?
Uh, and yeah, it's um yeah yeah, it's interesting how much of the little nitty-gritty stuff doesn't matter over like.
Does this space feel interesting and kind of fit the world and does it offer player variety and options?
You know, Because you can have a big, almost insurmountable wall but then you just put a zipline and you zip up to it.
Yeah.
No, that's really interesting.
Because it sounds like you were saying there, in that last bit, about more of the rule of cool, shall we say, versus that of the, I guess, the more metric-y side in that sense.
I find here that applies.
It seems to work better than over analyzing like all the little things like if it's uh, if it fits the world, building the background story and it's aesthetically interesting and feels varied uh, then there's always something mechanically in the game that it offers that makes the space kind of work.
Yeah uh, so yeah, kind of starting with that and then and then tweaking as we.
We play test a lot in this studio.
We started off with three mandatory playtests a week.
And leading up to launch it's been every single day, which is the most I've ever kind of mandatory playtested anything that I've worked on.
But all the developers play the game, know the game.
So you can be talking to an animator or a concept artist, but they'll know what you're talking about because they also play and test the game intensively, which is great, um.
So from the play test and then later qa, uh like internal and external uh, we get a lot of feedback and and data that we gather as well, and then we can use that to, from the cool levels and cool environments that we've built, to bring in a little bit of rational design, right like we.
We noticed that uh, like in blue gate uh, like the area leading up to it um, that that was very open and there was almost no cover and like it felt bad and too dangerous entering the space uh, being flanked by like high ground everywhere, uh.
So we made like a couple of tweaks uh, and added some kind of central railing and a little bit of cover here and there to still have that scary feeling like it was still meant to be dangerous, but make it at least kind of a viable path.
So sometimes it's not just kind of the metrics and the gameplay intention here that take lead.
The lead can be what we want to do with it aesthetically narratively, and maybe just surrounding a new enemy that we're testing or introducing.
And then we kind of start tweaking and bringing that back in a little bit later.
And I'm curious though, because some of the locations on the maps that you have all made, as you mentioned, are just so visually striking like, really bring that sense of awe.
Is there a certain process you go about in selecting what you guys deem as a, you know, a cool enough location or one that brings what you mentioned, the narrative and these wow moments?
Um well, I can talk about uh, for Stella Montes, for example.
Um it's uh, we have some very solid direction on this project.
I find, uh, between like game direction, creative direction, uh, world direction.
Um, they really managed to embody what are this we're building and make it very clear for the team.
Uh like the timeline of, like in game world events from past to current, uh to what we're building towards.
Uh, as well as the aesthetic of what we're building.
Um, and with Stella Montas.
Uh, before I started working on it, we had a little kickoff and a sync with the directors about what did they want the heart of that place to be.
You know, visual references.
Uh, what kind of happened in the past within the games lore leading up to this moment?
Uh, what, what is the feeling that they want to go for?
What, what are the key references?
And also like, um, like a high level idea of like what it can offer in terms of gameplay.
Um.
So when I went in uh starting to block out and doing my pre-production on Stella Montes, for example, We already knew that the value proposition of it was to be kind of a smaller indoor, tight map to really facilitate that like a little bit claustrophobic feeling and heavy PvP, to create something that sets it apart from the other, like more open maps that we already had an offering as well.
Um yeah, like maybe you should invite uh stefan strandberg that i work with um, but so far like they've they've been doing a fantastic job to uh like it makes it a lot easier starting to work on a map when you already have those core pillars in place and you know what direction to push it in.
I wanted to build off because you really brought an interesting point there about the math that you worked on being more claustrophobic, to focus more on that PvP.
From your time working in multiplayer because I see a lot of people talk about with Ark Raiders that you create these more interesting moments where people don't know if they want to go instantly to kill one another or try work together and all these really just
I'm sure you've all seen them as well online just these fascinating moments of people becoming friends, turning enemies, and all of this.
Do you think there's anything specific about the level design that encourages?
You said more of a PvP focus, or maybe more of a PvE focus in terms of either size shape language, anything there you can think of?
There does seem to be some correlation.
At least Stella Montes is perceived by a lot of the community as kind of the PvP map.
Interesting.
Which we intentionally designed to be it, but we've never been overt about that.
People can still do whatever they want.
They can still be friendly with others.
They can still engage with the map in any way that they do with other maps as well.
So to see it being perceived as kind of the PvP heavy map without forcing that upon a player.
It's cool to see that that's paid off.
Uh, I think it's a couple of factors that that I feel contributed to that, but it's a little bit speculative as well.
It is a player density.
So it is just, uh, how many people like, do you continuously interact with?
Um, but also the claustrophobic kind of darkness with some bright contrast, the eerie feeling kind of always being on edge.
Um, And the short sightlines.
It gives a lot of opportunities for players to surprise other players without knowing that they're coming.
They're not running across a big field.
You don't see them in the distance.
There's a lot of tight corners and dark spots.
So there are a lot of ways that you can be ambushed.
So you often feel a little bit on edge.
When a player jumps from around a corner, that might...
You might just open fire just to be sure.
Yeah.
So I think it's, yeah, it's a combination of a couple of factors, but it's still, it's hard to make that very tangible.
No, I mean, I always think it's fascinating to ask right, just in case someone does find something right.
Like because you mentioned metrics.
Like, all of us have metrics in the game, no matter what the game it is.
But sometimes
You know what the gameplay feel you're chasing for with these metrics, but you never fully know if it fully goes through right to the players at times.
Yeah, thinking about it, stuff like traversal time, that might also play a role in it, right?
Like, if you're on a big map and you've found some loot, you spend ages getting to an extraction point.
Is it then worth it to engage in combat with someone and potentially lose all your stuff, whereas if everything's very tightly packed, you spawn in quickly, loot for like three minutes and then the extraction is kind of around the corner.
Uh, that that takes away maybe a lot of that, uh like risk aversion at the same time as well.
Yeah, that's fascinating right like, because you never know how much of these small things add up to to make the bigger ones.
That's been that's been true for the entire launch of our graders.
To be honest, like we never anticipated so many people to be so friendly with each other as they are.
Yeah, that's what.
That is the biggest mystery to me when when, when playing, when watching is the community and, as i said, it's not.
It doesn't look like it's uh like overtly designed to encourage that.
Right like, your communication is similar to many other games and yet like, it's really like, you guys have fostered an incredible new out out uh, or say play style, for that it's.
It's really cool to see.
I remember i think it was the day after launch uh, where i hopped on with a colleague of mine, Or it was even on launch day.
And he was like no, I've just been running around without any gear at all and just doing my quests and gathering loot and going.
And everyone was just not attacking me.
And I was like, what?
Wow.
God.
Man.
Yeah, that's a different one.
Now, I am conscious of time right now, Tim.
You do have and I've been fortunate enough to be able to share one of the levels that you've made.
I don't know if you want to share that with us here and us go through, kind of your design process and go through that champ.
Uh yeah, i can see if i can share my screen and uh because uh, i've ran some through our, our team uh, to luckily be allowed to showcase yes uh, like some, some old blockouts and stuff of stella montes from When we started back in I think it was like February, March to basically to launch.
Let's see if I hit share right here.
Amazing.
And I want to ask me how big or how many devs are on a map like of this size, right?
Like how do you divide this space up between you all?
It does vary heavily on the kind of map as well.
So on this one, I started as level design owner on this with the preparation.
But later Andreas hopped on and took over some POIs as we knew that we kind of wanted it ready for around launch already.
So he was a tremendous help in fleshing out some of the blockout areas and further implementation and overall suggestions and tweaks to cover placement and stuff like that.
Then Simon has been doing a lot of the enemy stuff.
I've done some first passes and first tests and stuff, but he really fleshed out the enemy, distribution and logic and placement and navigation and things like that.
And then someone like Marika will handle a lot of the loot passes, for example, that she's done like on all the different maps.
Because she has the best kind of overarching view and knowledge of how we do that across all the maps.
So to tweak all the loot tables and kind of chances, drop rates, all that kind of stuff.
So, from purely level design side, there's been four of us that have actively had our hands on this um, and then of course there's there's all the other departments that come in as well.
Right, like one or two vfx artists, like the audio team does their passes uh, like i think altogether three lighting artists have have done stuff on this as well.
Um the like there's, there's custom props that were made or tweaked for this level, then the whole level, our team has been phenomenal and they've they've eat it up per poi uh, point of interest to work on as well.
Uh, and that's not even saying anything about like direction and concept art and like everyone else involved in the making of it.
So um yeah, it is always a collaborative effort.
Yeah like, this was still a relatively early um, like block out phase yeah um, but if i look at, for example, A little, I have a couple of comparison shots here as well.
From like this block out kind of fly through to like mid level, when it was like first gameplay tests and stuff, into kind of final result in engine.
Um yeah, there's.
It's always a lot of back and forth, like it's already collaborating with people.
Before I start my first block out to sync on like what thematics will work and how big do we think the spaces would be.
And then a very first kind of rough pass of just placing an entry point in a room size connecting to another space and I'm running it through other people.
And, um, yeah, every step of the way it's, it's, um, like giving it to concept and they'll take the block out and do a paint over of that, for example, or. uh yeah it's uh it's it's it's a really cool team to work with and everybody's really good at what they do yeah looks all right and i guess when you because the first video you find through the the whole stage is huge right so how do you go about breaking that down mate as you said you talked about make sure that there's believability in it there's function in it how do you address that Yeah, also iteratively, but starting like logistics is always something I care about a lot and that I find interesting.
I like playing city skylines and stuff, for example, as well.
And to make it believable, is always thinking about OK, this is a facility where people went to work.
Right.
So how did they commute to work?
If they need resources, if they need containers to be brought in like, where are?
How are they shipped?
How are they unpacked?
How do people carry them to another space, like all those little things.
And how does it flow from space to space?
Is there a little resting spot?
Is there?
Like all that kind of stuff helps it make look believable, even though we don't have any toilets in this game, you know.
But That's the burning question in every player's mind right now.
Where would you go to the bathroom?
Yeah, I think it just doesn't happen in this universe, you know, like it didn't for Star Wars for so long.
That's it, mate.
And another question I've got, because you've got that balance between PvP PvE, how did you figure out like the right, i imagine it's partly iterative, but like the density between how much ai you put within a space, um it's, it's also partially guided by technical limitations how many, how many total ai we can have uh like, how much budget for it we we have available?
Um Yeah, I don't think we've ever defined any really hard rules on AI density in a certain place.
With Stella Montes, we definitely wanted to experiment with it a little bit more.
We wanted to see if we can make the same enemies that we have in other maps feel different.
Uh, so sometimes, instead of like a single tick here and there uh, that can jump on your face, like give it a chance for a cluster or three or four to spawn so you can get absolutely kind of swamped by them.
Yeah uh, to make this kind of little light threat move like a tangible, real threat, especially if there's a turret that you have to avoid, but then you get swamped by like four ticks.
And how do you respond to that?
Um yeah it's uh, it's still something that we're just continuously trying to play around with as well uh, like what works, what doesn't, and it's a lot of just internal testing and feedback and what feels good.
Um, but uh, simon is a really clever guy and uh, i think he's done a pretty phenomenal job on it so far.
So yeah no dude, i mean, I'm just blown away by by this.
Cause I like just from a looking at it from, even from a block outright perspective, right?
All the different shapes that you have in the amount of things connected here, right?
Like in the first video you had the, the train lines connecting it as well.
And, yeah, it just feels like such an incredible space that people do want to explore.
And I guess, is there anything that you focus on to help encourage that exploration?
Part of that is the loot and the process of that, but any other sort of things that you consider?
Yeah, like the thematics.
The variation in thematics, I think, matter quite a lot.
Let's see. for example, from what we just saw, this is like a paint over content.
Concept art drawing.
Can you see this as well?
Yeah.
Right.
So this is after like some block out passes and stuff, like a painter from concept to help guide the environment, artists and stuff with with how we wanted it to feel.
Yeah, like exploration is if, if there's something kind of worthwhile aesthetically that that pulls you in yeah uh, that that for me, uh drives a lot of exploration, even though in practice we see that a lot of things that make people go to areas uh, the indication on the map of how, how valuable the loot is like, if it has the red outline of like high valuable loot, then people will congregate there and there will also be more pvp in those areas usually, and that's a really good point.
You mentioned that because, like loot density, you don't think about it, but with different games right, it brings different points.
He said more congregate, possibly more engagement, but also that of like encouraging players to go to a certain point, with it being a live game.
I guess you're still very early in that process, but has there any thoughts about like switching up loot's regularly, so it so it doesn't become like a?
An example would be destiny's cave, where they had a glitch and everyone went to this cave over and over again.
You know um, i think we are doing like.
We have already done tweaks amazing and we'll continue to do tweaks.
So it is a live ops game and um yeah, sometimes it's just about addressing stuff.
That almost feels like an exploit.
Uh, But with so many overlapping systems, there's always a million things of those.
So you fix or tweak one thing and players find five new ones on the next day immediately as well.
The loot distribution system is already randomized and controlled to an extent.
There are tables with percentage chances and different thematics, and we have quite a lot of control over it, but we still want the feeling of loot and being surprised by what you get to be there at the same time.
Yeah, so it's a little bit of a a delicate balance to keep.
Um yeah, there's also map conditions that that change loot frequency and some other stuff.
Uh, so there is a little bit of like overlapping stuff going on there.
But uh, i don't think we'll we'll radically change, like the type of loot that drops on stella montes, like overnight, or something like that.
But As we work on the game, more loot will be introduced, of course, as new weapons and gadgets and all sorts of things.
I mean, I'm pretty sure Virgil promised in some interview that we have a 10-year upcoming support at least for the game, with new stuff coming out.
So we're all hard at work building for that.
So I don't know what the game is going to look like in 10 years from now.
I'm sure it'll still be great.
It could evolve dramatically over time as we keep going.
I can yeah, i can imagine with that.
Um no uh, i won't keep you anymore for 10 minutes, let alone 10 years for this tim.
So i just want to say uh, unless there's anything else you want to show or talk about in your design process, we can wrap this up.
Make some conscious of your time.
All right, cheers.
Um yeah, even though i kept this one very very, uh blurry, i couldn't open this because it's not often that people can see design documents of games in progress, so just, I think it might be worth sharing that as well.
Yes, please.
So this is like a condensed level design document.
Let's go back to previous area.
Amazing.
Right.
So I start with this kind of stuff early on before starting the block out, at least starting with breaking down the different kind of thematic areas uh, and everything that the the directors already have in mind of like rough aesthetics and references and what it means in the story, and try to break those down into recognizable different areas and um, what you can kind of make out in the top left is uh, bubble diagrams uh yeah, So to get a rough sense of kind of scale and how much of the map in the space does a certain aesthetic and thematic and like in this case for Stella Montes, like if we have like a medical research thematic right or like a manufacturing technology heavy aesthetic, and then break that down into subsections like an assembly line and robotic sandbox later to kind of start with a method that's very quick to communicate to the rest of the team and iterate on.
So you can start with these little bubble diagrams and thematics and a quick summary of what those are and then present those early on to the directors and other team members to get some early feedback.
And it might already come back as like oh well, these themes kind of feel similar and together they make up like half the map.
So if we want more variations, we could already bring that in a little bit.
And that can be done in like minutes to like hours of work, rather than days of block out and then having to redo everything.
So starting with those kind of rough macro definitions of things, then kind of fleshing it out and setting gameplay intentions early,
And from there on, move into like a first block out so we can start walking around in the space as soon as possible, even if it's like just a couple of big cubes with like a doorway here and there, just to get a sense of okay, how long does it take to get from a to b and and how tall does it feel?
Do i want the player to feel big or small or do i want it to be scary, and what works.
So those kind of very rough quick iteration passes, do a lot of those and communicate with the team throughout.
Um, i made this rough enough uh, this image as well, so you can't read up and everything, because there might be some info and narrative backstory that i don't quite want to spoil for like upcoming stuff, because of course, we'll be looking into like future maps as well as kind of map updates, and there is a lot in this world building and story, uh that we use to guide us, even if we're not super player facing and like it might not be said in like a dialogue with an npc or a cut scene or in a snippet, but there is kind of a deep lore and world building behind it uh, that we use to inform every choice that we make as well, which is very cool.
I really like uh kind of narrative, heavy world building stuff.
I did.
It's incredible.
I just really want to say, for those who are watching, the amount of reference images that you you have even you know, from from this distance i can see is a lot, and i think i'm sure you've seen it as well.
Some people uh, breaking into the industry may not understand the purpose of references, but just how powerful they are as a tool to helping us make great levels is incredible, absolutely.
Like working in a vacuum is very tricky um, and those references here are like They're like 1 of everything.
This was kind of the condensed level design document that I use as like a source of truth.
So those are the key references and I try to make sure it's not overly documented there.
I don't write down all my random ideas and snippets and all references.
It's a very condensed version, so anyone on the project can kind of look at that and get a good idea of roughly what is the gameplay intention, the feeling, the vibe of the space as we're working on it.
But there's other Miro boards and Notion pages and other things all kind of linked together that build on top of it.
And a ton of concept art and other reference gathered by the art team as well.
So, yeah, this is kind of a core kind of leading document that gives you a quick overview.
And then there's a lot of other stuff about like, the underlying story and how it all ties in as well.
No, that's super, super cool.
And just yeah, thank you for that, for sharing with us.
It's, you know, incredible to see how other people design right, and so just to see, that is yeah, fucking cool.
No other way to put it, mate.
Just fucking cool.
Um, i will wrap this up mate, for for time's sake, but if people want to reach out to you mate, where's the best way they can reach out to you?
I do have a Discord channel that I periodically check in on, which is TimDoesLevelDesign.
We can share a link in the description as well, if you'd like.
It is a little bit of a dead Discord at the moment, but I do peek in there and if people have questions, I try to answer here and there as well.
Awesome dude.
Um yeah, all that will be down below.
If you want to reach out to me myself, you can so on twitter, which is at max pairs, email into the show level design lobby at gmailcom.
And just thank you again tim, for taking part in this.
Mate really appreciate your time and everything you shared, mate.
Yeah, thank you, thanks for uh inviting me on and uh, it's good to chat to you again as well.
Yeah, all right everyone, take care and we'll catch you all next time.
