Ready, set, go! This is episode 409, featuring me in the hot seat, getting interviewed by running coach Sarah Manderscheid about how to structure a season after you've had a breakthrough race.
Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast. We surround you with the same experts as pro runners, So keep listening to hear running coaches, physical therapists, strength experts, dietitians, sports psychologists, and other thought leaders give you the best guidance possible to take your running to the next level.
I'm your host, Coach Jason Fitzgerald.
I'm a former cross country and track athlete for Connecticut College.
I've been coaching runners since 2010, and I used to write for Trail Runner Magazine and Runner's World.
Today I'm the head coach of Strength Running, host of this podcast, and I work with a small handful of startups in the running space.
You can learn more about me and Strength Running at strengthrunning .com.
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All right, this conversation is a little different.
I'm reposting an episode of the Elevate Your Running podcast where I was interviewed by the host, Coach Sarah Manderscheid.
She's been a guest on the podcast before and recently invited me on her show to talk about the flip side of my season before the season concept.
This idea is pretty simple.
So if you're trying to have a big breakthrough race, we have to think about the season before your breakthrough season.
One good season usually isn't enough for a big breakthrough.
But this episode focuses on what happens after your breakthrough.
Let's say you just ran a big marathon PR.
What next? Next, how should you recover?
What kind of training might be best for you after that big breakthrough?
I honestly think this is some of the most important aspects of training, the big picture planning of your year and what goals to pursue.
I hope you enjoy it, and if so, make sure you're actually subscribed to the podcast. Without further delay, please enjoy this conversation with Coach Sarah Manderscheid.
Hello, and welcome back to the Elevate Your Running Podcast. This is Coach Sarah, and I'm here today with coach Jason Fitzgerald who runs strength running.
Hey, Jason, how's it going?
It's going great, Sarah.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, thanks for agreeing to do this.
You've been on the podcast a few times now.
You've been in episode 30, 53, and episode 143.
So for those listening, if you haven't tuned into those episodes, they are great episodes on a variety of different running topics.
And for today's episode, I'm really, really excited to talk about our topic, which is the season after the season.
And that was something that we talked about a few weeks ago after the Boston Marathon and talking about how after you run your A -goal race, what comes next?
And maybe you have another race scheduled later in the year.
Maybe you don't, but how do you kind of treat this period of, you know, another season, but it's after the big race season.
So I'm excited for a combo today.
Yeah, this is a good one.
And it kind of was born out of our conversation about the season before the season, which is this concept that I have, which basically says, look, if you want to have a breakthrough race, it's probably going going to take more than a 12 to 20 week block of time to really get you to that level where you can have that huge breakthrough set a big monster personal best. So if you do really want to have that breakthrough, it's very beneficial to talk about the season before the season, you know, setting yourself up to succeed as you are training for your big goal race.
And then a couple, you you know, a couple of days later, you were like, well, Jason, what happens after the big goal race?
What about the season after the season?
So that's really important too.
And you can't just keep doing what you've always been doing.
So I think this is a really important conversation.
Yeah. I think so too, because we both coach athletes.
I think we both experienced quite a few different styles of athletes and what they're going after and what they want to do, especially especially after running such a big race, like let's say you are running a really strong half marathon, a really strong marathon. How do we set up this time now to set the athlete up for success moving forward?
So it's going to be great.
And this could be, you know, for someone who maybe has that early spring marathon, think Houston, think Boston, and then you're transitioning to to the fall, and maybe you have a Chicago, a CIM on the calendar.
So the races are six to nine months apart.
You can't be marathon training for the entire year, or I mean, you can, but this episode is going to talk about some other things that you can kind of lean into.
So now that we know what the season is before the season, I want to get into how those athletes can set themselves up for running their eight goal race.
So what are some general best practices you have for runners who have another A goal race lineup six, seven, eight, nine months from now.
Well, I think the first thing you've got to do is just celebrate what you've just done.
So if you did just have a big goal race and you're sort of wondering what to do now, you know, one of the greatest things to do is just, you know, spend 20 minutes, 30 minutes and just reflect back on on the season that you just had, the success that you've just had, the great race that you've just run.
And try to learn from that.
What went really well?
What went not so well?
Even if you have a phenomenal personal best at the end of a season, you likely didn't have a perfect season.
And it just goes to show training perfection is not something that's really ever possible.
But but there were likely a whole bunch of things that went right in your training.
And so you should be leaning into those things, recognizing what went really well, and just kind of have that little investigators mindset of looking back on your training and thinking about all the things that you responded really well to.
The thing that we should first do after a great performance, I think is take a little time off, you know, especially if you've had, you know, a four, five, maybe even longer month season.
That's just a lot of time to be training to be on a schedule to be doing hard workouts.
And you likely need a little bit of a break.
And, you know, I think all training should kind of be cyclical.
So if you've just had your your big goal race, you probably tapered for it.
And the next part of that phase of training is rest and recovery.
So let's take some rest and recovery.
Let's reflect on our performance and our great race that we just had.
And then we're ready to sort of get into the actual training strategies.
strategies um and so from there you know one of the things we've got to recognize is if you just had a breakthrough or you ran a pr that means you are a better runner than you've ever have been before that's an exciting place to be it's it's really exciting um you're obviously on the the right trajectory you know your performances are moving in the right direction so we want to keep that trajectory and i think one of the best ways to keep that trajectory is is to make sure that the six weeks after your big goal race are structured appropriately it should give you enough rest to make sure that you're
not carrying soreness injuries any kind of fatigue into the next season but it also shouldn't be so much rest that you sort of over recover and then you you experience some de -training, you might lose some of that fitness level that you worked so hard to gain in the prior season.
And we should just get back into it.
And the great thing is it doesn't take too much to maintain your fitness level.
So just by starting to run a little bit where we're starting that process of preventing the decline of your fitness and preventing that de -training process.
So of course we can get into, well, what's your goal?
How much time do we have and all that's really important.
But at a really high level, you know, we've got a first rest, not too much, and then get right back into it with some training so that we're not experiencing any detraining.
Yeah, that's a great recommendation.
I know, you know, some athletes want to get right back into training, they want to get right back into running.
And the rest and recovery period really is that time that is also part of training that is going to give back to you.
And you might might not feel the effects of pushing too hard too soon in that moment.
You may actually feel them a few months down the road when training really does start to pick up and you're not able to maybe do exactly what you want to be doing because your body can't handle it.
What's kind of a good template for runners who are coming off of running, let's say, an A -goal marathon?
How much rest and recovery should they have?
What's normal? What's not normal kind of in this process?
If that athlete's looking to get back into training and continuing to to train for another race?
Yeah, I think there's maybe what we can label average amounts of time off that people usually take after a marathon. And then there's, you know, some outlier examples.
And I would say the average amount of time that runners typically take off after a marathon is about a week, about a week of no running is usually pretty average.
And I think is usually usually sufficient for most people.
If you're only taking three to five days off from running, that to me is likely a scenario where you are an incredibly highly trained athlete that does have the ability to bounce back.
And the way I think about this is the more well trained you are for really any race, but particularly for the marathon. You know, obviously, if you're running 100 miles a week with 24 mile long runs, and you ran the marathon in two hours and 15 minutes, it wasn't as stressful for you as someone who didn't have that training background and was on their feet for maybe an hour longer.
So you probably need actually more time off than the elite runner who only raced that marathon and it took them an hour less than you did.
You know, they're on their feet less, and they're just doing more training.
So, you know, I really don't think most recreational runners should probably take less than a week off, you know, I think it's you're starting to flirt with potential injuries, potential burnout, or overtraining syndrome, if you do that, but five to 10 days is probably the sweet spot for most runners, you know, seven to 10.
Really, I would say for most runners, you know, when we start getting up to two weeks, That's where I would say, because this is the longer side of marathon recovery.
If you had a really long season, if you are quite mentally burned out, you just can't even think about lacing your shoes on, you know, after your marathon, or you just feel really beat up, you know, like that marathon just took a lot out of you, both physically, but also perhaps emotionally, you might need two weeks off.
And I think that's okay.
I think for sustainability and longevity reasons, I would rather err on the conservative side with marathon recovery and give runners a little bit too much. anything longer than two weeks and it's probably more mental than physical and here is where we start to flirt with some more significant detraining and so I very rarely like to see more than two weeks off especially if this is a runner that wants to continue training so if it's a runner that wants to recover and then start running again I typically think that you know know, the seven to 10 days is the sweet spot for marathon recovery.
And then we've just got to get into some easy running, you know, of course, we're not going to get into hard workouts and long runs and high mileage or, you know, whatever kinds of training you were doing at your marathon peak.
But we are going to get into a couple days of easy running, you know, maybe after a week, we'll start strides again, really just start kind of waking the body back up after that week or so off.
And so I do think that the couple weeks of easy training after the week off is arguably just as important as the time off, but both are needed.
Yeah. And keeping those easy runs truly easy and monitoring your heart rate, especially after racing a marathon, you may notice that your heart rate spikes after a certain point in the run.
That's a great signal that you're not recovering.
You still have some recovering to do and really just trying to to take those runs as easy as possible to give some love back to your body, some self -care, some self -love.
I've shared the story quite a bit on the podcast, but after I ran my second marathon, which was the Boston Marathon, I was pretty disappointed in what I ran and how I did.
And so in that pivotal 48 -hour window after the race, I signed up for another marathon, which was four months later.
And I started running within three days of running the Boston Marathon. Well, I ended up feeling flat in training.
I just felt really bad.
I couldn't do as much as I wanted to do in the training cycle.
My long runs were shorter.
My workouts weren't quite as big.
So there is kind of this idea of you have to think about what's next.
In the moment, to go out for a run in the moment.
You may want to do that big long run because your friends are doing it, but really leaning into like you, how you're feeling, knowing what's best for your body is I think going to be the best. Yeah.
And that really speaks to the fact that marathon recovery is about so much more than just how your legs are feeling.
You know, like I have coached so many runners who after four or five days, their legs feel pretty good and they want to get back out there and they're excited to run again.
And, you know, I reluctantly agree to a like a short 20 minute run just to test the legs out.
And almost to a tee, it inevitably happens where they will discover soreness that they didn't even know was there, or they will just feel like terrible, you know, it will feel like you just ran one of your hardest long runs or workouts outs the day before.
And you didn't even really know it until you started running.
And it's like that first run, which I like to call a diagnostic run.
It's really not there to do much of anything except diagnose how you're feeling in any particular trouble spots or sore areas that you might have. But it will uncover how you're actually feeling.
And if it's only been a couple couple of days, it's probably not going to be good.
Yeah, definitely. And I think it also opens the door and opens the window for new niggles to possibly pop up depending on how hard the race was the race course.
I know I've had athletes come back to me after the race and they're like, I have this new niggle now.
And so it's really important to like lean in to the body, lean into yourself and really take the, and push the ego aside as you're kind of into this recovery period, because it really is part of the training.
Now, as someone, okay, so you race, you recover, maybe we're past that two week window and their A goal marathon or their A goal race for the fall is still six months, nine months away.
What's kind of the next step for this runner?
I think the next step is thinking about the amount of time that you have between where you are right now and your goal race.
So, you know, let's maybe make this simple and say you have seven months.
Well, we could potentially break this time down into distinct seasons because one of the problems I often see among runners is taking that goal and becoming so hyper focused on it that you don't really do much else.
You really just kind of train for that one goal.
And if you have this goal that's seven months away, let's say it's another marathon, you maybe it's a late fall marathon, then you kind of start thinking to yourself, well, I'm going to start training now.
I'm going to get so much preparation in.
I'm going to patiently build my mileage.
I'm just going to be in such great shape.
I actually don't think that's the best strategy because we don't want to train exclusively for one race for like seven months.
It's too long of a training cycle.
You're going to increase the risk of potentially getting getting injured or just being mentally burnt out from training and being on a plan for such a long period of time.
So step number one is breaking this time down into distinct seasons.
Now with seven months, you could have, let's see, a three month season and a four month season.
And what you kind of want to do after your goal race before you start training for the ultimate kind of goal that you have seven months from now is to do something different.
And here is we kind of go full circle because cycle, you know, training is cyclical.
We've now gone from the season after the season, it becomes the season before the season.
So we're now in the season before the season, which is the season after the season.
We're going to need like some sort of decision tree to figure all this out at the end of the episode.
So the season after your big goal is now the season before your next big goal season.
And in this hypothetical example, both of them are marathons.
So you've got your early spring marathon, maybe you ran Boston, and then you've got a late fall marathon. Maybe it's the Philadelphia marathon, maybe it's CIM.
am. And you have this kind of weird in between time where it's not quite ready.
You're not quite ready to start a marathon season.
But you're also not quite ready to, you know, you're not, you're just not ready to do nothing, you kind of want to do something.
And here's where a lot of runners get tripped up because they don't know what to do.
And it's always valuable to do something different, to do something that your body is not quite fully trained for.
And in this example, since we're talking about a spring marathon in a late fall marathon, the in -between time I think is best suited for something really fast. Let's train for a 5k.
Let's train for some all comers track meets.
Let's really focus on all the kinds of training that you're really not going to touch in marathon season.
So this is going to be more VO two max oriented work.
It might be more sprint work, a little bit more focus on speed and power rather than on volume, mileage, long runs, and aerobic workouts, which typically take the bulk of your marathon preparation.
And with this kind of an approach, you're still running.
I always like to say, look, running is running, training is training.
if you're training for a 5K, you are sort of training to become a better marathoner, because you're just training to become a better runner, better runners are going to run faster marathons.
So anyone who's like, Oh, no, I don't care about the 5K, I really just want to run a marathon. Well, it is in service of your upcoming marathon. So even even if you're focusing on something that you really have no intention of really caring too much about, it's still going going to help you with the thing that you are very much interested in, which might be that fast marathon. It's sort of like strength training.
You know, everyone knows me as like the strength running guy.
He's always talking about strength training.
I don't even like strength training that much. I would rather be out running, but I do the strength training because it helps me do more running.
It helps me stay healthy and allows me to do more of what I love, which is running.
Same thing with this sort of in -between season here.
We can focus on a very different type of race or series of races.
And it's just going to help us become better at the thing we really care about, which is the marathon. Now, we could also do something very different, like trail running, you know, we could get into something that is a little bit less conventional.
And I think there's a place for that.
But it really comes down to the guiding principle, which is variety is important.
Let's focus on something a little bit different to force adaptations that we we might not get from pure marathon training.
Yeah, definitely. I'm a big believer in that as a coach and also as an athlete, but like how do runners determine what they need next?
Is it really just based on like, oh, you know, training for a 5k sounds fun or running just higher mileage at easy effort sounds fun.
Or is there something that really moves the needle if I'm kind of in this stage?
Yeah. So we could talk about a bunch of different things here.
I mean, the number one one thing that I think moves the needle is personal bests.
So keep running faster.
Run faster races. And I don't even care what those races are.
It could be the mile.
It could be the 3K.
It could be the 5K.
It could be offbeat distances like the steeplechase if you have any crazy adult recreational runners who want to sign up for an all -comers track meet with a steeplechase.
It could also be something that you're not comfortable doing that could build more skill into your training.
So for example, if you're someone who has never really lifted weights and you're scared of trails because you always seem to be falling down all the time, you might be a good candidate to have a three -month block of time where your goals are to get stronger and to get a lot of comfort on more technical terrain.
I think that's going to help with obviously your strength, your power, but also general athleticism, proprioception, your coordination.
That could help you become a better runner.
That's a little bit indirect, but I always like to see runners focusing on some of these training -related PRs.
And that's another interesting aspect to this is you don't necessarily have to be setting personal bests in races.
We could be focused on training.
So maybe you don't race at all for that three -month period, but instead you're focused on maybe setting a new weekly mileage or monthly mileage record. That's a way of training more than you ever have before in a way that could help you become a better runner.
You could do a similar approach, but layer on more cross training.
If you're if you happen to be an injury prone runner, if you are an injury prone runner, maybe that's the the issue that you tackle in this season before the season.
Maybe you really try to figure out why you get injured and how you can design training that helps you prevent your next big injury.
Maybe it's as simple as doing a dynamic warmup before each run and then a healthy dose of strength training.
Maybe it's figuring out an actual, accurate, easy pace and making sure that you are doing appropriate recovery runs.
I know a lot of runners like to push on many runs.
And, you know, we can certainly do a little bit too much before we're ready for it in that scenario.
So there's a lot of different ways that we can sort of think about this, but I really think it's, it's about variety and it's about thinking about what are your specific weaknesses or shortcomings and how can we address those?
Maybe it's strength, maybe it's capability on trails, maybe it's your proclivity to get injured, whatever it is, let's work on it.
Yeah. Yeah. And what do you say to the runner who maybe leans into getting really uncomfortable, they're doing something brand new that they've never done before, and they absolutely hate it, or they don't like it enough to like, want to keep going and, or, you know, are there any downsides to encouraging a runner to get really uncomfortable in a space for a few months at a time?
Um, because I'm thinking about athletes who are coming off of a marathon block, they go into to 5k training and they are just shocked by the intensity the variety of workouts and because it's different they might associate some negative feelings around it and um you know it could lower their confidence what do you say to that athlete i mean look i have spent most of my running career being literally afraid of some middle distance races because they are so uncomfortable hey thanks Thanks for normalizing that.
Yeah. If anyone's run the 3 ,000, it is a pure VO2 max oriented lactate bath that you're going to be taking.
And there's always going to be fear around these sorts of races because you're jumping into the deep end.
It's a difference between the marathon is like spending four hours in a hot tub, whereas as the 5k is like putting your hand in boiling water for a couple minutes.
It's a very different sensation.
It's taking all of the suffering of the marathon or a half marathon and condensing it into 20 or 25 minutes or whatever the time period might be.
So first, let's normalize the fact that it's not going to be comfortable.
No growth is comfortable, you sort of have to get comfortable with that.
And I think a lot of runners will, they will kind of suck it up and, and deal with it a little bit once they understand, Hey, if we really want to become better runners, we really need to work on our weaknesses.
And a big weakness among a lot of runners is their ceiling, their, their speed, their VO two max, their maximum output, you know, know, their, their ability in a very short distance, you know, they might be able to go for run and run two hours.
But, you know, the local 13 year olds that just graduated middle school might kick their butt in a mile.
And so that does show a certain discrepancy in ability.
And so I'm of the mind that we should work on our weaknesses, we shouldn't only lean into our strengths.
And so for a lot of runners, you know, if you tell Tell them, look, if you just get a faster mile time and a 5k time, and then we go train for a marathon, your chances of accomplishing your, your goal time in that race is going to be dramatically higher because you now are a lot faster.
Your VO two max has increased.
One of the great benefits of working on these shorter races is that you tend to improve your running economy as well.
So your efficiency, and you don't get as much of that when you're just doing easy mileage or you're just doing aerobic workouts.
And so I've found a lot of success in just being very honest about the benefits, and hopefully kind of leveling with the runner that this is a very effective path forward. And for the runner who really wants to improve, look, if you want to get better, most runners will reluctantly agree that, okay, I'm going to have to suffer a little bit if I do want to achieve these goals.
Because let's face it, they're not easy.
Like you want to to run a fast marathon, that's like one of the hardest running races out there.
Like you want to master an advanced complex race.
Let's first master the 5k.
It's a lot easier. You know, if it doesn't feel good, it's okay.
It's going to be over in 23 minutes anyway.
And, you know, you can forget about it and we can try again next weekend.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would argue at this point, maybe the 10k is the hardest distance to race, but you did just race one yesterday.
So the trauma of that might be very close to your brain right now.
Still very real. Thanks again to Boulder Thon for supporting the show.
They're offering $20 off the marathon or half marathon with code strength 20 at boulderthon .org.
You can register for a 5k, a 10k, a half marathon or the marathon on September 28, in epic Boulder, Colorado.
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It is on track to sell out again this year, so be sure to use code STRENGTH20 today to save $20 on your registration for the marathon or half marathon at boulderthon .org.
I hope to see you there.
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something to keep in mind too.
I think for the, for the runners or athletes listening who maybe you are in a season of speed, you're getting uncomfortable.
It's not necessarily the training that you love.
I think always keeping like the North star top of mind, like, you know, right now I'm not racing well and I'm keeping in mind, I'm still putting the effort in, I'm still doing all the work and it's going to get me to be, you know, faster, stronger at my fall race, hopefully the fall marathon. That's the goal.
And kind of keeping that like a goal race in mind, I think can really, really help if motivation's low, if you're feeling like you have a confidence hit, if you're like, this just isn't what I want to do or how I want to spend my time.
Because I do hear a lot of runners, they're just in kind of this shock of the training and how vastly different it is from the marathon. But what about for that athlete who is into speed, they are into racing, you know, the mile or the 5K, like how many races do you recommend that they add to their season?
Because what we know to be true is that racing is a skill set.
And although we want to say one and done, it isn't always one and done.
And having more on the schedule is usually better, right?
Yeah, especially when it comes to these middle distance races.
I think it's sometimes surprising for runners to see a recommended season race schedule when it comes to races like the mile or the 5k or the two mile, the 3k, because there's no such thing as one and done.
You know, your tune -up races are often the same distance as your goal race.
They could be a little bit longer or shorter.
But often, you might race a 5K as a tune -up for that upcoming 5K.
That is your goal for this little in -between season that we're talking about.
So if you are someone who really gets into these kinds of races, and I think that's an amazing thing, we can sort of do a whole bunch of them.
You know, I think once a week is a little bit too much. that might be a little bit too hardcore for most adults.
But if you wanted to run four or five races over the course of a two month period, I think that's fine.
Now, the 5k and shorter are substantially easier to recover from from the 10k to the half marathon distance.
So, you know, if you have some 10ks in there, that's where you might need, you know, two, two maybe three weeks between races, because you're going to be pretty beat up from a 10k.
Whereas a 5k or shorter, you're going to be pretty well recovered after a couple days.
And so if you wanted to, you shouldn't do this every weekend, but you could race a mile on a Saturday and then a 5k the following Saturday, or two 5ks back to back weekends, that's, that's very possible.
Now, of course, you don't want to layer in very difficult workouts and a substantial long run between two 5k races, you know, you're sort of racing your way into shape and using the races as speed work, but totally possible.
And, and I think, like you said, racing is a skill.
And, and one of the great things about having a poor middle distance race performance is the fact that you sort of just cross the finish line, dust yourself off and you go, all right, well, well, I'll try again in a week or two.
And you can just iterate and learn from that experience.
So I generally think three to five races, you know, if it's on the shorter end, let's do more of the race that you're training for.
So let's just say it's a 5k, you might do something like the 5k, and then a mile and then a final 5k.
And that could be your speed season.
Or you could do something a little bit more substantial where you're running four or five races that are spread out a little bit more over a, you know, maybe a six to eight week time period.
Um, but you know, if you look at track seasons for, you know, track athletes, you're going to see a lot of races, uh, and there's going to be some meets where they run two races in one meet, or they might have multiple races over multiple days.
So it's almost like kind of a, a weird stage race, except it's not an ultra, it's just middle distances, one every day.
Grand Slam track is actually a great example of this right now, where these runners have to run two different races in a three -day period.
Now, that's a little aggressive.
Not all of us are pro runners.
Most of us are not even collegiate runners who might be racing every week and could Could be doing two races in one meet.
But, you know, two races every three weeks, I think, is a pretty good way of thinking about that.
Yeah, and it sets the season up for success in a way that there is always another race to look forward to.
You have another few weeks of training before racing again.
You know, a marathon training cycle, half marathon training cycle, it's 12, 16, 20 weeks of just going in every day and training.
maybe there's a tune -up, maybe there isn't.
But it can be a really exciting time that's just very, very different.
And you also get to practice your race day morning routine, your fueling system, your mindset.
I know yesterday when I was in another tough 10K, I thought, just keep pushing as hard as you can because it is the same mindset I want to take to the marathon in the fall and not give up when things start to feel really hard. And so there are some wins that you can kind of collect along the way in your season of speed.
Now, I want to move back to that rest and recovery period for that athlete that maybe just came off of that A goal breakthrough race.
They're so excited and they actually don't know what's next.
They haven't really thought about it.
They really just wanted to get through this race to see what the outcome was, to see how they felt, if they could get through the training cycle healthy.
So how does that athlete know when it's time to start thinking about a new goal and how to kind of balance that with the rest and recovery that they took, whether it was a week, 10 days, maybe up to 14 days?
Yeah, I think this athlete has flexibility and they have options.
So first, definitely take the the same amount of time off based on how you're feeling based on how the marathon went, just because that's more of a physiology based decision rather than what's next or sort of based on how you're psychologically feeling.
It's more based on your, your physicality, you know, we need to properly give you the right amount of physical recovery.
So that should sort of always stay the the same.
Then I would say, the first couple weeks should also stay kind of the same based on what no matter what your goal might be.
So even if you're going into a speed season, or you're not, the first one or two weeks after that, say roughly week off should still be very easy.
We still need a couple total weeks of recovery time after a marathon. Part of that that as time off.
Part of that is just easy running.
So if you're used to running five days a week, maybe your first week back, you only run three days a week.
You're not doing anything really long, you're certainly not doing anything hard, you know, you definitely want to keep everything very easy.
Don't worry about pacing, you might be much slower than normal.
You're not at that like peaked marathon, you know, super fit ready to race kind of phase right now.
You're you're still in that recovery phase.
And so your body is just not ready to perform.
That doesn't mean your body doesn't have a high fitness level.
It just means you're not, you're just incapable of expressing it right now.
So don't worry, you're, you're, you're, you're not going to feel good.
You are going to, you are going to be running slow, but it's all part of the process.
It's totally normal.
Still take that one or two weeks of just easy running, gradually building the mileage.
You know, maybe after a couple of runs, you do a session of easy easy strides.
And then after three to four weeks, now it's kind of time to make that decision of what do I want to do next?
You could go right into another season of training if you decide, hey, I want to run a race in, you know, 10 to 16 weeks.
Well, okay, let's get the goal race on the calendar.
You can start building the training and pointing it toward that goal race that's in 10 to 16 weeks or whatever.
Um, but if you can't find a race, then I would say, well, I think sustainability is really important, you know, like don't just stop running because all of that progress, all of that fitness that you built, you know, the, the PR that you might've run in that big breakthrough marathon, you're going to start becoming detrained and then you're sort of starting from scratch again.
So we want to avoid that.
But if you really don't want to to do much of anything.
I think a lot of easy running is a good place to be, honestly.
At a minimum, running a lot, doing some strides a few times a week, getting in some kind of a long run most weekends is really not going to lead you too far astray from where you were previously, as long as you don't do it for six months, nine months, 12 months.
We do need to get back into to some kind of training based on what your goals might be after a couple months.
So this might be a good opportunity to not put any pressure on yourself, not sign up for any races.
If you're not really sure what to do, you still want to run, but you took that marathon season so seriously, and you want a little bit more flexibility, we could do something like a mileage block, which is something that you know i've talked about with you in the past which is just something like you're sort of just training for more miles you're not training for a race you're training for volume that might be a fun you know way to focus your training in a way that isn't super stressful or that puts a lot of pressure on yourself but you know the great thing about running is that there's so many
different things you could do you know you could train for a long race you could train for a short race you could focus on some type of training personal best whether that's monthly mileage maybe really get into cross training and you're like all right well i want to run 30 less than what i had been running but i'm going to ride my bike for six hours a week or something crazy like that well you could totally do that and that's a great way of maintaining your fitness level too so the good news is that for this runner who isn't quite sure what they want to do They do have options, but I would always
recommend doing something so they don't start losing all of that carefully built fitness.
Definitely. And then how should runners think about approaching, like setting new goals after they just achieve this major one?
Should they be chasing the next carrot?
I know when I raced a pretty strong half marathon a year and a half ago, I wanted to go right back in.
It was part of a tune -up to a marathon, and then I wanted to go right back into a half marathon training cycle.
And my coach was like, let's celebrate this big breakthrough in the half for a while.
Let's not chase it right now.
And I actually haven't ran a half since.
How should runners approach setting that new goal after they achieve that major one?
Again, I think there's flexibility here.
What do you want to do?
What goals do you have?
I think You know, this is sort of the wonderful flexibility of running and how it can be applied to so many different goals and so many different circumstances.
Um, I think if a runner wants to keep setting personal bests and, and they're really excited about their new personal best that they've just said, you know, if they did have that breakthrough, I think at that point, it's important to still get that rest and recovery.
Because that's going to be important for the sustainability of attacking these goals.
Because let's be honest, it's stressful.
Hard training is stressful, right?
So we've got to make sure we're building in that R &R.
But then also, it's like, let's focus on something a little different.
Like with your example, you said a great half marathon PR.
And then your coach pointed you in a different direction.
We don't need to keep hammering away at this half marathon. We can do something else.
And I always like to say that running is like the opposite of the stock market.
Past performance does indicate future performance.
And so if you did just set a personal best in some distance, you might be in a really good position to set another personal best in a similar distance.
So if you just set a monster personal best in the 5K, you might be ready to do it again in the 10K without a lot of extra work.
It's not like you need an entirely new training cycle for a similar distance.
So that's one thing I would say is like, well, look, let's keep this party going.
Let's keep this improvement train going down the tracks and just focus on a different distance.
But the other thing is that if it was a really good breakthrough performance, it can be a a little bit mindset shifting.
Because if you have had a breakthrough, it means you are no longer the type of runner you were before.
And so, your goals might need to be updated and made a little bit more aggressive.
So, you know, if you thought you were going to run a 92 -minute half marathon and you really, you know, you ended up running an 88 -minute half marathon, well, you know, that indicates that you're substantially faster than what you thought.
And so if you have any other races that you're planning estimated finish times for, we might need to update that and be a little bit more aggressive.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of different ways to think about it.
But I'm a big fan of focusing on that variety, keeping the PR party going, provided we get get enough rest and recovery and using the personal best to then update our, almost like our self image, the way that we think of ourselves as runners.
You know, I've seen, I've actually seen a lot of chatter recently on social media about newer runners having breakthroughs because they stopped calling themselves slow.
And I absolutely love this, this little bit of of psychological trickery that new runners are engaging in.
I'm a big fan of psychological trickery.
I love lying to myself and telling myself that I'm having a great time out here when it's cold and raining and you know, whatever it might be a little bit of delusion, I think is helpful.
And when we have a big breakthrough, you know, we need to then change our thinking about ourselves, you know, of course, not delusionally, but we need to kind of break into a new level of performance expectations for ourselves because we've just demonstrated that we're capable of that.
And that to me is a very exciting place to be.
Yeah. That's a really, really solid point because how many of us as runners start out, we're casual runners.
We may jump into a local 5k.
We're just running when we want to.
And then all of a sudden we may start training or we may have that breakthrough race.
And then we're on this path of doing bigger and greater things in the sport.
I think oftentimes that runner who might be two or three years into it, they've had success in the marathon, the half marathon, that voice in their head still creeps in that they are a new runner, that they have just gotten into the sport or that they're slower or that they can't do this big thing that they want to do.
So it's really important to stay focused on that.
Stay focused in the present of how far you've come, all the wins that you've created, not just in training but on race day, and really believe it.
One of the things that I like to say to myself, I really need to bring this back into my own training, is proving yourself right.
So anytime the mile split or the split on the watch would go off and I'd either hit the rep or I'd be pretty close to the rep, I'd say, you're proving yourself right.
right? Like you're doing it.
And when you continue to talk to yourself in that way, it really does just bring all the positive stuff that you want into training, both mindset, body, all the things.
Yeah. And it doesn't always have to be like delusional.
Like I was talking about before, you know, I'm being a little funny right now, but you know, it can be just affirming your own progress.
And you know, this is one of the reasons why I love when runners keep a hard copy training journal because I want you to be your own best cheerleader, to constantly be affirming yourself and talking about how great you are.
And look, that's a little weird. It is a little strange to be constantly telling yourself how awesome you are.
But in the privacy of your own training journal, I think it's almost mandatory if you want to keep improving and staying really engaged with your training and excited about training hard. Because if you can't be your your own best cheerleader.
I mean, you're never going to find the perfect cheerleader outside of you.
Like you should be the person most supportive of your own running.
And if you're constantly, you know, kind of being that negative person and talking down about your performances and like, I knew I couldn't do that.
And that kind of, that kind of self -talk, it is going to be very very self -defeating.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a domino effect one way or the other, whether you're positive or negative, it's just going to continue and grow and build.
Now, what are some common mental mistakes that you think runners make during this phase in the recovery process as they're going into maybe planning that new goal?
And how can they be avoided?
Yeah, it's a good Good question.
I think one of the biggest mental mistakes during the recovery phase as you're just getting back into what I'll call normal training is thinking that you should be performing at a level that you were performing at, say, three weeks prior.
So three weeks prior might have been right before your marathon where you're tapered.
If your coach did a good job, you are feeling literally at your best. I mean, the entire point of the training cycle is to maximize your ability to race at your best on a very specific day.
You are not capable of running your best marathon any day of the year.
It's planned very strategically.
So it's going to be like on Patriots Day for the Boston Marathon, for example.
And so just recognizing that like, okay, I'm in shape.
I obviously just ran a great marathon. So it's not like I'm a different person now.
I'm the same person that ran that great time.
But I'm not ready to run hard or run fast right now.
And almost having a complete 180 with your psychology and thinking to yourself, I don't care about performance right now.
I'm running for fun.
I'm not trying to get back into it really fast. There's no rush.
That's a big part of this, this post marathon recovery phase is there's no rush.
Take a couple weeks, I would rather someone be a little bit over recovered than a little bit under recovered.
Because that really speaks to sustainable training over the long term and really focusing on your longevity as an athlete.
You know, I actually get the most nervous as a coach in the couple weeks right after a marathon. That's where the potential for getting injured is likely at its highest because you're building back up while you're in a compromised state.
That to me is a very nerve wracking time as a coach. So just keep that in mind.
Let's not, you know, try to rush that process.
It's probably going to be a little bit of a slower process than you envision.
It's not going to take a week.
It's probably going to take three weeks to start feeling normal again.
And that's very normal.
It's to be expected.
But that's where I see a lot of frustration among runners is, you know, they kind of hope that they're feeling normal again after a week.
And it can often take up to a month.
Yeah, definitely. And I think the more races you run, the more you experience and you also understand that every race is different.
And I've recovered, or what I deemed to have felt like I recovered well after some saw marathons versus other marathons, um, I had to laugh a bit because in my last marathon build, my, my coach FaceTimed me, um, the day before the race.
And she was like, congratulations, you're in the best shape of your life.
You are like the most fit right now.
And you're going to like use it all tomorrow and you're not going to have it back for a while.
So have fun with it.
And it really does speak to how that day is so important.
And there is just that very specific day that you can go out and do something so exceptional and grand and hopefully have a little bit of fun in the process.
You know, we were talking about shorter middle distance races and how you can run, you know, four to five of them over, you know, a six to eight week period.
And it kind of goes to show the marathon is unique because you're taking all of that potential And you're sort of trying to pour it into one day.
Whereas with the middle distances, it is it is possible to extend the peak a little bit and have a multi week period, maybe a two to three week period where you run three races or so and have your best performances in that period.
So this is just another way of thinking about that speed phase.
If someone ends up doing it, like you're going to have a little bit more flexibility when it comes to peaking than you did for the marathon. And so I just think that's important to keep in mind.
Yeah. And that's, I think a lot of fun knowing you have a lot of chances to do something great or have that breakthrough race in in the middle distances.
is yeah and that also speaks to another one of your questions that i don't think i answered fully which was you know how do we think about goal setting when it comes to you know this this new goal that we're talking about during this sort of in -between season and one thing that i've found is fairly consistent among adult marathoners is that rightfully so they get upset when they don't run a good marathon because after all we put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to the the marathon. You prepare for like four or five months for this one race.
And look, if it doesn't go well, that is a bit of a setback.
You did spend a lot of energy, time, and resources on that one single race.
I want middle distance runners to have a very different mindset where they don't put too much importance on any one individual race.
Because you can recover quickly, because because you can bounce back, because you can schedule more of these races, if you have a really bad race, just laugh about it.
You know, learn from it, if you can see what see what potentially went wrong so that you can address it in a future race, because the future race might only be a week or two from now, it's not six months from now, like the marathon. So I have a very different mindset around, you know, a very short race, where, hey, this is like almost like like an experiment let's see what happens let's give it my best but if it doesn't go well hey you know you kind of dust yourself off and you try again now of course you're going to dust yourself off and try again with the marathon but the time scale is so long that I
fully understand the disappointment whereas if you're disappointed over like some 5k tune -up race it's like well all right I understand but but then also let's get back on the horse much more quickly because we're going to have another chance at that.
We can try again. Yeah.
I think that's a really important note to make.
And you know, it is really tough with the marathon. And I think if you are someone who's been racing marathon after marathon, or you're going after the six or seven stars now, and then you have that race that just doesn't land.
And you say to yourself, I've done everything possible.
I did the high mileage.
I did the strength twice a week.
I did the recovery.
I did everything my coach asked me for and it still didn't land on the day.
It's a really tough pill to swallow, but also knowing that there is a little bit or a lot of luck that goes into the marathon because it's also not just, okay, we race this maybe twice a year, but it's also 26 .2 miles and we all know that anything and everything could come up in the the matter of, uh, that distance.
Yeah. It's like the final 10 K is like the wild West. You never know what's going to happen.
So if things don't go well, it's like, yeah, the other interesting aspect to this, Sarah is like, you may, you know, you were saying I've done the mileage and I did the strength training and I had all these great workouts and you know, I've heard Jason just ramble endlessly about strides for like 16 years.
So I've been doing my strides too.
and I still didn't have a good race.
Well, you could have trained perfectly and you just didn't have a good race, not indicative of your fitness level or your potential.
You just didn't have a good day.
And that is the unfortunate reality of running.
So if that's the scenario, maybe instead of that breakthrough performance that you had, you know, in say early spring, if you didn't have a good race, but you had great training.
I like to think of, okay, you might've had a breakthrough season, but you just weren't able to express it in the race.
So let's put some races on the calendar after, you know, once you've fully recovered, of course, and gotten into some basic training so that you're ready for those shorter races.
But it's almost a a great example of you might be in PR shape you just don't know it let's not allow a negative psychology to impact the breakthrough that you had that you just aren't even aware of yeah yeah I love that mindset shift and taking you know something that is somewhat negative into a positive to say let's try it this avenue and see what we can do because the season has shown training PRs you had breakthroughs in training.
It just didn't land on that one single day, which is so tough, especially when you're traveling and you're working with altitude to lower elevation and lower elevation to altitude.
Any and all of that is all going to kind of move the needle on top of it.
Now, we've talked a lot about racing today in the season after the season and, of course, the season before the season.
But how important is it to take a break from competition?
How important is it to take a break from racing?
And is there is there such a thing as taking too long of a break?
Yeah, I do think it's important at some point during the year to take some time off from racing and just sort of focus on your training.
And it doesn't have to be race specific can just be a period of base training for example it can be you know we talked about a mileage block earlier and and that's basically just a base training block that has a more specific goal of you trying to run more mileage and you know like it also does just depend on a runner's psychology you know like if they want to be racing there's the opportunity to get back into it in a responsible way where maybe you don't have any seasons where you're not racing.
So it's possible to be racing pretty consistently, as long as you're taking some rest and recovery after goal races, you still have some, you know, at least a couple weeks of easy training before you get into those hard workouts.
And that kind of a scenario is pretty sustainable, because you're you're getting adequate rest in two different forms, full rest, and then periods of easy running.
But with that said, you know, the beauty about running is that you can kind of do whatever you want with it.
So if you don't want to race, but you still want to run, you care about not losing a lot of your fitness, then yeah, you can you can kind of do something a little bit different different and not do any racing and have it be a very restorative period of training for you.
So for example, you know, when I graduated college, I still loved running and I wanted to keep competing, but I needed something different.
I was just so, you know, I don't want to say burned out, but I was just a little bit bored, let's say, of the cross country, free indoor track, outdoor track, summer based training schedule that I had been on for eight years throughout high school and college.
And we just wanted to do something different.
And I was like, well, let me train for triathlon.
So even before I did any races, the training that I had to do to become a triathlete was very refreshing to me because I basically halved my overall weekly mileage, but I was doing cycling, I was doing swimming, I was doing all these different things that, you know, ultimately helped me become a better runner.
But it was a period of time where I really wasn't too focused on either my running or on racing.
I think a couple months in I did two triathlon races, but that was it.
So there wasn't a lot of racing, I really just thrived off of the training itself.
So, I mean, there's, there's flexibility and I think it does depend a little bit on what the runner actually wants to do.
Yeah. And that's a really important part, like what the runner wants to do versus maybe what their friends are doing with their coach suggests that they do.
And really having that strong sense of like what you want to do, what's going to fill your cup.
And if that's, you know, goal driven, if you have outcome goals that you really want to go after, or if there's a different approach to it, really leaning in, and being all in on that decision, I think is, is a great place to be.
Last question, running is the long game, right?
Endurance running is the long game.
If you want to see your potential in the marathon, it's going to take years to find it.
What is your advice to runners to, you know, develop and sustain that fulfilling relationship with running over the course of the long term?
Let's say if it takes 10 years to get to the marathon, Like the ultimate, you ran your best marathon. How can runners kind of develop that relationship to the sport to keep them interested and going after it?
That's like the million dollar question, Sarah.
How do you get runners to want to do this difficult thing that we call endurance running?
Oh, I wish I had the answer and could bottle it for, for all of your listeners.
Look, I think at the end of the day, you've got to love what you're doing and you need to be doing it for a reason that is sustainable.
For most of my career, I wanted to be the fastest runner that I could be.
And so I wasn't really focused on any one distance.
I did not care. I wanted to be better than I was the day before.
And so part of that was a very process oriented approach that kept it sustainable for me.
So I wasn't just trying to do wildly more on any given day and end up, you know, injured or just suffering from some overtraining symptoms or something like that.
that. And also I was just a bit agnostic when it came to the race distance.
I was just as happy about setting a PR in the 800 meters, which is an event that this slow distance runner had no business racing.
I was not that kind of a mid -distance specialist, but it was fun.
And I just loved the process of getting better.
I think if you just want your marathon time to to start with a two rather than a three or to start with a three rather than a four.
That is such an outcome -oriented goal that if you don't accomplish it relatively quickly, you might find that you don't have the drive to stick with training as long -term as that goal is, is requiring you to, because I have found most runners can probably achieve all of their big goals, just not in the timeframe that they were thinking about.
So it's possible, but you might need another six months, or you might need another three years, depending on whatever that goal is going to be.
You know, I, when it came to, you know, some of my personal bests, I always thought I was going to be a lot faster than I was.
And if I was just thinking about the time on the clock, I probably would have quit very early in my running career because, you know, it took two years for me to chop seven seconds off of my 5k time when I was in college.
That's a lot of hard work for a very, very small amount of time.
And if you're not loving it every day, if you're not having a good time, you know, it's probably not that sustainable for you.
So from at least the psychological perspective, get in it for the right reasons, know your why, really make sure that you have a sustainable reason for continuing this process of training, which can sometimes feel like hitting your head against the wall.
But then on the physical side, let's do a lot of the things that we talked about today, making sure that you're getting adequate rest and recovery after a goal race, making sure that you have adequate weeks of easy training before you get into hard training, not thinking that you can just do hard training week after week after week because you're going to either get injured or burnt out so it's let's make sure that your training is sustainable that's where an amazing coach like sarah can be very helpful and then let's make sure that you are personally driven in a sustainable way to accomplish
your running goals whatever they might be yeah and i think it's if you're loving the training if you have a great group of people train with, if you have the ability to work with a coach, if you're leaning into all those things really can help an athlete get through even a tough cycle to kind of get through and maybe find that joy again.
Thanks for your time today, Jason.
Yeah, of course, Sarah.
Where can our audience find you if they don't know where to find you?
you? Well, my home base is strengthrunning .com.
That's where you can learn about me.
You can learn about strength running.
You can find the strength running blog and the strength running podcast, of course.
Yeah, that's typically where I hang out on the internet.
Great. Well, thank you so much for your time.
Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience that you didn't get to share today?
No, I don't think so.
I'm just glad we could have this conversation because I I think one of the most important parts of achieving your potential as a runner, achieving whatever goals that you might have is setting up your seasons and making sure that all of your hard work, your training, your energy is focused on the right thing because you could have the best intentions.
You could be doing all the right workouts, but if all of that is pointed in the wrong direction or pointed in the right direction at the wrong time, time it might make accomplishing your goals that much more difficult so having a coach having these conversations about planning out a year or six months in advance so that you know the overall flow of training is a real big part of becoming a better runner yeah that's really great I love that so much um thanks so much for your time today we tried to record this in person but it didn't end up working out because of technology issues.
So if you're watching the video, Jason's in my, in my home with the backdrop of the Boston marathon, and I'm in a separate room.
Very strange, but we made it work.
We made it work. We made it work.
All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening this week and I'll see you next week.
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