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I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey.
We were on The Office together.
And we're best friends.
And now we're doing the ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.
Each week, we will dive deeper into the world of The Office with exclusive interviews, behind -the -scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.
We're The Office Lady 6 .0.
Hello. Hi. Happy New Year.
It's 2025. We did it.
We all made it through the holidays.
We have a fun episode today.
I was so excited in prepping this.
I got really excited.
Lady, I even stood up.
I paced. I said things out loud.
Really? Oh, should we tell people what we're doing?
Yes. All right. The inspiration for today's episode comes straight from the office fandom.
You know, we have been digging online, and we have found a lot of office fan theories.
You name it, you guys all have an origin idea about something on the show.
So, based on one of the most popular fan theories that you shared with us, we're going to do a little detective work.
A little mom detective work.
Jenna, what are we mom detective -ing?
Detective -ing? There it is.
Yeah. Today, we are finally tackling the question, is Toby the Scranton Strangler?
Yes. And we asked you to write in and give us your theories and opinions.
Thank you so much, by the way.
They were amazing. Detailed?
Yeah. I mean, really good stuff.
Our producer Ainsley divided your letters into two sections.
Those of you who think Toby is this grand strangler and those of you who think he isn't.
So here's what we're going to do.
We're going to have a good old -fashioned debate using your letters to support our arguments.
Our version of a debate.
For you hardcore debaters out there, we're going to mess it up.
We're not going to, it's not going to be like the, the debate, but it's going to be a debate.
It's going to be a debate.
It's going to be a conversation.
A mob detectives debate.
Thank you. And then after we debate is Toby the Scranton Strangler, Paul Lieberstein is going to join us in the studio and tell us what he thinks.
And by the way, I say Toby is not the Scranton Strangler.
And I say Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
And we have not seen each other's arguments.
We have not seen each other's evidence.
This is going to be interesting.
But before we get into our debate, I thought it might be helpful to give a brief history of the Scranton Strangler.
Angela? You are doing a summary.
This is my favorite day.
Jenna's doing like a little shoulder shimmy.
She's kind of excited about that.
Yes, Jenna, you suggested I do this, and I thought, you know what?
I'm going to take a stab at it.
Oh, I said stab. Oh, not strangle.
Okay. You know, I'm doing, I guess, my version of a summary.
I'm calling it an overview.
An overview. I like it.
Okay. Please proceed.
Here is my Scranton Strangler overview.
So the first time the Scranton Strangler is featured is in the sixth season.
It was the episode The Delivery.
Now, if you remember, everyone is at the hospital waiting for Pam to give birth, and Andy arrives with a gift.
He has gotten the newspaper from the day Cece was supposed to be born framed.
This is a very thoughtful gift.
It really is. I don't know if we ever talked about how thoughtful that was of him.
But then he is annoyed because she wasn't born on the day of the newspaper that he framed.
so andy says i decided to give baby halpert a newspaper from the day she was born this frame sent me back 55 bones yeah and then andy shows the camera the frame newspaper and goes on to say but she decided to take her sweet time so now i have to switch it with today's paper and he holds up the day's
paper now look the original newspaper he framed had the headline as spring has sprung, but that day's newspaper, the headline is Scranton Strangler Strikes Again.
Yeah, this is the first time the audience learns about the Scranton Strangler.
It would become a running storyline for the remaining seasons of the show.
Besides the delivery, it is mentioned in the following episodes, Viewing Party, Happy Hour, Body Language, Costume Contest, Classy Christmas Part 1, Michael's Last Dundies, Doomsday, Jury Duty, The Boat, Dwight's Christmas, and Moving On.
And although several other characters reference the Scranton Strangler throughout the series, it is Toby who seems particularly obsessed with this news headline.
And ironically, once the Strangler is apprehended, it is Toby who ends up on the jury that finds the Strangler guilty.
After the trial, Toby remains obsessed with the case, And finally, he goes to the prison to confront the man he thinks he wrongly imprisoned.
Well, Angela, that was an excellent overview.
Thank you. Guess what I have?
I'm going to take on a little bit of like your thing.
I have some digital clutter.
Is today Freaky Friday?
What is happening in this new year?
Are we trading bodies?
I don't know. Oh, my gosh.
I did a summary. You're doing digital clutter.
All right. So we once shared that Mindy famously said that The Scranton Strangler was the most pitched storyline in the writers' room.
They loved this. I mean, I bet it was fun.
And like you said, we were first introduced to The Scranton Strangler in season six, The Delivery.
Well, I found three Strangler storylines that were pitched but not produced for season seven.
Oh, my gosh. Are you ready?
Treasure! What? Mm -hmm.
Okay. So I guess over the summer between season six and seven, the writers had this big pitch session.
They all had to come back from the break with multiple storyline ideas.
And here are the three that involved the Scranton Strangler.
Okay. First of all, BJ pitched a storyline that Dwight was going to try to lay a trap.
Oh. For the Scranton Strangler.
This was the card. Dwight lays a trap for Scranton Strangler.
Okay. But there were no other details.
Cary Kemper pitched a storyline similar.
You're going to see a similarity between all three of these pitches.
Cary Kemper pitched a storyline that would be part of our Halloween episode, which is that the Scranton Strangler had called the Scranton Times and issued a warning that he was going to strangle on Halloween night.
Oh, this guy's got a lot of attitude.
Yeah. This was going to make everyone really scared to go trick -or -treating.
Okay. So Dwight, here's the common theme, decides to take things into his own hands.
And he's going to take Aaron to a park and tell her to fall asleep on a park bench.
And he's going to like lay in wait.
Like use her as bait?
Yeah. She's the bait.
Oh, Aaron, don't go.
But the strangler never strikes.
Okay. It was a false alarm all around.
No strangling on Halloween after all.
Okay. Okay. He's playing games.
Yeah. Yeah. Messing with everybody.
Maybe some insight into the Strangler.
Here I am. I'm just adding to the card.
Oh, that's how our session works, right?
Yeah. Then Robert Padnick pitched this story.
It was a card that said, extra security because of Scranton Strangler.
And in this pitch, as the building manager, Dwight was going to really buckle down to protect everyone from the strangler.
He was going to put up barbed wire and metal detectors.
He was going to get a Doberman.
The problem is that this scary dog that was supposed to protect everyone ends up being just like a complete love bug.
And then everybody just falls in love with this dog.
And then I don't know where that was going to go if we were just going to have a dog.
But these were the three pitches that I was able to dig out of my producer's digital clutter.
You know, here's the one flaw with that Robert Padnick card, which is that if Dwight put up metal detectors, he'd never be able to come into the office with all of his stuff.
This is so true. I'm sure he had an alternate entrance for himself.
That's really fun. We're going to have to ask Paul about all of that when he joins the show.
I have so many questions for Paul.
I know. All right. Well, are we ready for our opening statements?
Angela, would you like to go first?
Yes. I just want to put this out there.
I have never debated anything, and I tried to follow the little outline you sent me, Jenna, so I'm not sure this qualifies as an opening statement, but here it is.
Are you ready? Hello.
That's a good start.
Welcome, Cassie, Sam, Jenna, and all of you listening out there in the world.
Welcome to the first ever Office Ladies Debate.
I, Angela Kinsey, am taking the position that Toby Flinderson is indeed the Scranton Strangler.
Today, I will prove the true nature of Toby Flinderson and the crimes he most certainly committed.
Now, you might say, shy, mild -natured Toby, the sometimes helpful HR rep who sat quietly in the corner of the annex, could he really be capable of this type of violent crime?
But ladies and gentlemen, I really don't have to say much.
Toby will tell you in his own words that he, in fact, has a very sinister nature.
Furthermore, I will provide hard evidence that reveals that Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
Wow. I'll allow it, but watch yourself, counselor.
May I approach the bench?
Yes. Okay. All right.
That was great. I will start by saying I've also never done this.
I was not in debate in school.
Me either. I think I did one debate in one history class once in high school.
My closest thing to debate is watching, what was that Tom Cruise movie?
You Can't Handle the Truth.
Oh. A Few Good Men.
A Few Good Men. A Few Good Men.
I rewatched that this past year.
Well, that's the closest I've come to debate.
Really good. Yeah. All right.
Here's my opening statement.
Okay. Sam, Cassie, esteemed listeners, Angela.
Thank you. It is my position that Toby is not the Scranton Strangler.
I will present evidence or rather point out the lack of evidence that shows Toby is not a criminal.
And while I personally believe that George Howard Scubb is the real Scranton Strangler, I will also offer alternate suspects, all of whom are more likely than Toby Flenderson to have committed these crimes.
I believe that Toby believes he convicted the wrong man.
I believe he might start a podcast to try to find the real killer.
But this is not out of guilt for being the true Scranton Strangler, but rather because Toby's life lacks excitement.
and the Scranton Strangler trial was perhaps the happiest we've ever seen Toby.
His face lights up when given the chance to talk about it.
I believe he's grasping at this one moment of excitement.
I would like to conclude my opening statement with these words from Celia S.
in Plymouth, Minnesota.
George Howard Scubb is the Scranton Strangler And Toby is just a weird man who's obsessed with murder mysteries.
Probably because his own life is actually so boring.
I'm not a Toby hater or a Toby defender.
I'm neutral. Toby is just Toby, not the Scranton Strangler.
Just Toby. And that's all he needs to be.
Toby is Toby. thank you well i mean i know we're on opposite sides but i thought that was really well done i mean i thought yours was great too okay well listen why don't we take a break and when we come back we will each give our constructive speeches all right on our positions okay back when I worked
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statements and then we each give a constructive speech.
And then we have rebuttal time.
I don't totally know how that works, but I'm getting out a pen and paper.
Oh, you're going to write notes to rebut for my rebuttal.
Okay. Because I think my rebuttal is in real time, right?
Did you write a rebuttal?
I thought they came at the end.
They came at the end.
I did speech and debate in high school.
Oh, Cassie! Oh my gosh, please get in here.
So you have to listen to each other's arguments and you can be writing while they're making the arguments, but you want to have a rebuttal against whatever they say and make your argument stronger.
Yeah, so it'll be argument, argument, rebuttal, rebuttal.
Rebuttal, rebuttal, in conclusion.
Yeah, all right. So now while Angela's talking, I'm just writing, but am I allowed to do things like, mm, am I allowed to do stuff like that or no?
No, but for the sake of the podcast, I think you can.
Okay, just want to know her rules.
I did not write an in -conclusion, so I'll have to wing that one.
Well, I'm winging it because I want to hear what Paul has to say.
Oh, our in -conclusions come after Paul.
All right. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Here we go. Angela, you're up.
Okay. Here I go. I feel like I'm in front of like a high school classroom.
I have all of those feelings.
I'm like, oh no. Okay.
I am ready to present my case that Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
First of all, let's ask the question, does Toby fit the profile of a serial killer?
The evidence says he does.
According to the U .S.
Department of Justice, 85 % of serial killers are male, and 82 % are white.
Check, check, Toby.
According to the FBI, serial murders often seem normal, have families, or a steady job.
Hmm, a human resources rep at a paper company.
Again, check Toby. Studies have found that a significant percentage of serial killers come from broken homes.
As a result of their trauma, they may suppress their emotional response and may have difficulty empathizing with others.
They often suffer from a variety of personality disorders, psychopathy, and antisocial personality.
Let's see if Toby checks that box off.
In the episode The Deposition, we learn that Toby's parents divorced when he was a child.
Both of them wanted custody and both asked him to testify against the other in court.
He was unsure what to do because he loved both of his parents and didn't want them to get divorced in the first place.
That was certainly traumatic for Toby.
And we learn Toby himself goes through a bitter divorce.
Check Toby. Next up, studies also find that surreal killers find comfort in their fantasies and dreams that take them into a realm that only they can control.
Hmm, let's see. Does Toby fit that profile?
His wife left him, he feels alone.
He loved Pam, but she didn't love him back.
He has a boss that hates him and bullies him.
He can't control his real life, so he creates a fantasy life through a character he made up, Chad Flinderson.
That is where he can be in control.
In fact, one of Toby's mystery novels is titled A Murder for Framing.
Toby is sharing his knowledge of how to frame someone for murder.
It's literally the title of his book.
In the episode Christmas Wishes, Toby, through his cover of being this mystery writer, reveals how you could put someone else's fingerprints on a crime scene.
It happens when Dwight gets quilled by the porcupine.
Andy says to Jim, this has your fingerprints all over it.
Jim turns to Andy and says, Andy, you've got to be kidding me.
And then Toby pipes up and says, fingerprints can be planted, you know, with like a severed hand or what is happening here?
Toby is describing how to frame someone in front of everyone.
toby goes on to further say chad as a character is a very complex individual and he deals with a lot of personal issues so toby checks all the boxes here folks and ladies and gentlemen sam cassie and jenna now that we have established that toby fits the profile of a violent criminal let's look at some
hard evidence that further proves toby is the scranton strangler Are you ready?
You're not doing poorly.
You've written three notes.
I can't see what they say.
I'm not going to look on her papers, okay?
Here we go on to my next part.
It all started with rejection.
Becca N. from Berwyn, Illinois writes in to say, Toby is absolutely the Scranton Strangler.
Let me lay out the evidence.
Becca, you do a fantastic job, by the way, sidebar.
Becca says Toby turned his back on his initial passions, the seminary, to get into a relationship with a woman.
And it's implied that she ended up leaving him.
And now he's stuck in a dead -end job where he doesn't get to use his brain.
He's very undervalued, not just by Michael, but everyone else.
He's constantly bullied and generally mocked and ridiculed.
And of course, he was deeply upset by the thought of the police going into his desk because he's hiding something.
The killing starts being mentioned after Pam got married.
He had an obsession with Pam and is disappointed at losing her to Jim, and that is manifested into a murderous rage.
Pam is having another man's baby, and someone dies the same day?
Then there is the part where the baby is christened.
Toby goes to the church, and he can't go in.
later he asked god why are you always so mean to me someone else agrees sam k from los angeles and our office ladies episode breakdown the christening sam said you know who wouldn't want to enter a church because they have a problem with god and then sam answers himself a strangler okay i feel like
that's a little pandering to the jury using our jury's own words ringing.
Wait, is this allowed?
Is this approach the bench moment?
No, this is absolutely not allowed.
If Sam is the judge, he needs to leave.
I need to recuse myself.
Sam clearly needs to recuse.
Cassie is now our only judge.
Okay. Sorry, Sam. You're part of the argument.
Sorry. All right. Now let's point out some of Toby's strange behavior that is prone to being irrational, aggressive, suspicious, and sinister, that is further evidence that he is the Scranton Strangler.
Number one, irrational behavior, like out of nowhere saying he is going to Costa Rica.
Fan theory from Angela Kay, also on this podcast, also in the christening episode quoted as saying, if you were the Scranton Strangler, you would need to have a place to go and hide.
He clearly has set up a second residence or even a different identity in Costa Rica.
Liv from Vancouver writes in with this excellent point.
What are your thoughts on the fact that Toby always keeps his passport with him?
Mentioned when he's having a conversation with Mrs.
California. My theory is that he needs it in case he ever has to flee the country.
Who said that? Liv.
Liv. From Vancouver.
Okay. I have some words for Liv later.
Oh, okay. Well, Liv, get ready.
Next up are things that Toby hides.
He's actually quite athletic.
Proof of this is in Night Out.
We also had a fan theory that we shared on this very own podcast from Carolyn G.
She said, since Toby jumps the fence with such apparent ease, it shows that he's someone who might be able to escape the police.
Is this evidence that Toby is the Scranton Strangler?
Jenna Jenna F. from Los Angeles said she asked Paul about this and Paul's response was sounds smart okay all right judge judge are we allowed to use Paul in here what is happening you are playing fast and loose with this why can't I quote like a cop who's two days from retirement why can't I quote the person who plays the character who also was a writer
oh boy All right. All right.
Next up. You're on thin ice.
You have been recused.
This whole thing's about to go out the window.
Oh, gosh. It's going to be blown out the window.
Next up, Toby's aggressive behavior.
Like this moment when Clark interrupts Toby and Jim talking.
Let's hear it. Hey, Toby.
I wanted to ask you a question.
Oh, sure. It's a little personal.
Let's do it. Let's get personal.
I wanted to talk to you about your divorce.
Sorry. No, no, no. What I meant?
It's okay. I can handle it.
You guys obviously went through some tough times.
I was wondering if you ever did any couples counseling?
Oh, sure. Lots of times.
Yeah. Wait, you and Pam aren't in couples counseling, are you?
Oh, God. No, no, no.
We're just starting couples counseling.
Uh, which doesn't sound any better.
Even you guys. Kelly called it, 2013.
Hey, hey, hey, no, no.
Get out of here. Clark, get out of here.
My mistake. Yes, it is your mistake.
It's lingering. It's so annoying.
I'm going to kill him.
I'm going to kill him.
That's what Toby said when Clark interrupts him.
I'm going to kill him.
For more suspicious behavior, we have in Viewing Party, everyone is gathered around Toby's desk watching the police pursuit of the Scranton Strangler.
Fans have pointed out a few important things.
Number one, where is Toby?
Everyone else at Dunder Mifflin is there.
We have a fan theory from Angela Kay in Los Angeles.
Might the documentary film crew have suspected it was Toby all along?
And is this why they purposely included this footage in the documentary film.
They wanted to highlight the fact that Toby was not at work the day the strangler was fleeing, and there's also something else.
A letter from Taylor C.
in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
The staff is seated at Toby's desk when his phone rings on the day that the police are pursuing the falsely accused strangler.
In addition to attempting to contact him, the caller must have known Toby's extension directly because Aaron was not at reception forwarding the calls.
Given he has few acquaintances and hardly ever gets direct calls, this is extremely suspicious and suggests that Toby might be framing George Howard's scub.
Doug Y. from Spokane, Washington.
Notice that the car the strangler used during the chase was previously seen in the background shots of the parking lot of the office.
Did Toby provide George with the car?
Further part of how to frame a murderer.
And then there's Toby's obsession with being on the jury for the case.
Jenna, you mentioned this.
He seemed delighted.
He seemed so happy.
Well, many people wrote in and noted that Toby is happy to be on the jury because he knows he got away with it.
Someone else is going to pay for his crime and he's going to help make sure of it.
He is going to convict an innocent person to cover his tracks as the Scranton Strangler, as he planned all along, by framing George.
And several people wrote in and noted, including Jennifer G.
from Tampa, Florida, saying that they believed that when Toby went to see George in prison, he was going to say to him, I know you're innocent because I did it.
He is sinister. He is evil.
He has a dark nature.
He was proud of this crime.
He was taunting him.
And George strangled him as a response.
But lastly, to really show Toby's true sinister nature, let's just hear it from Toby himself.
We should really have the office's air quality tested.
We have radon coming from below.
We have asbestos in the ceilings.
These are silent killers.
You are the silent killer.
Go back to the annex.
You'll see. You'll see.
You'll see who the silent killer is, Michael.
This is a person who is bitter, unhappy, jealous, rejected, a loner who had the motive to kill, the ability to kill, and the arrogance to brag about it in front of a camera crew.
They knew he did it.
Toby tells us he did it.
Believe him. Toby Flindersen is the Scranton Strangler.
Wow. Wow. okay that's as far as i got guys i'm gonna say i i'm a little surprised to hear that you were not in debate because i thought that was excellent oh thank you yes cassie are debates usually this friendly no but i love how friendly this one is we will continue okay well i guess it's my turn
Well, let me just tell you, the jury is feisty in there.
The judge has a lot of comments.
We lost a judge. We lost a judge, but he's still very chatty.
So anyway, I wish you luck.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to present three very strong reasons why Toby is not the Scranton Strangler.
Starting with a lack of direct evidence.
There is simply no concrete evidence linking Toby to these murders.
Now I will admit, there's not a lot of evidence or details of the Strangler's crimes.
But we do know a few things.
Number one, we know that there was a car chase that led to the arrest of George Howard Scubb.
And I would ask this question.
Why did George Howard Scubb run from police and barricade himself inside of an apartment complex if he was not guilty of this crime?
Some people have suggested that Toby was driving the car since he is not in the scene where everyone is watching the chase.
Maybe Toby ran into the apartment complex and then escaped, leaving George Howard Scubb to take the fall.
But here's the thing.
Where did Toby get this Mercury cougar?
This is not Toby's car.
Angela, you yourself pointed out that in season one, Toby has a photo of a Jeep at his desk.
In season two. You're doing what I did.
You're quoting from our own podcast.
Judge. Slight objection, but I'll allow it.
Thank you. Thank you.
In season two, episode Take Your Daughter to Work Day, Toby drives a silver Saab.
And then in Season 8, the garden party, he's driving a Subaru Impreza.
None of the Dunder Mifflin staff are ever seen driving this Mercury Cougar that is at the center of the Strangler case.
This would mean that Toby, our underpaid HR rep, somehow has two cars?
A Strangler car and another car?
I doubt that is the case.
In Dwight's Christmas, Toby is recounting his theories about the Scranton Strangler to Nelly.
He mentions that they found fingerprints, presumably linked to George Howard Scubb.
How did George Howard Scubb's fingerprints get on coins found at one of the crime scenes if he's not the Scranton Strangler?
Hmm. Oh. Hmm. Hmm. Okay.
You might notice that none of Toby's fingerprints were found at any of the crime scenes.
And if they were, we would know about it because he has traveled abroad and it is customary to provide fingerprints in order to obtain a passport.
So clearly, Toby's fingerprints have been cleared.
And while Toby might doubt the validity of these fingerprints as being accurate, there have been many cases of police being able to lift fingerprints from money and get convictions, just like they did in this case, because criminals often think to wear gloves while committing a crime, but not when handling
their own money. And finally, I would say that the fact that George Howard Scubb tries to strangle Toby during his visit to the prison is pretty clear evidence that George Howard's scub is the strangler.
But now I'd like to go to character consistency.
Per the FBI, psychopaths who commit serial murder do not value human life and are extremely callous in their interactions with their victims.
One strategy to assess whether a person is a psychopath is to look at four dimensions.
deviance, distress, dysfunction, and danger, collectively known as the four Ds.
Toby's character is largely depicted as mild -mannered and empathetic, making it difficult to believe that he is a serial killer.
Ellen Kaye from Robinson, Illinois said, I don't think serial killers participate in Movember.
I would also like to quote Jenna F.
from Los Angeles, who said, Why would Toby be so worried about us all dying of radon poisoning if he was the Scranton Strangler?
Wouldn't he want us all to slowly suffocate?
That sounds like the perfect crime.
Finally, I'd like to point to some other suspects.
Sure, you don't believe it's George Howard's gub.
How about Creed Bratton?
Madison S. from Covington, Kentucky said everyone thinks it's Toby who could be the Scranton Strangler.
Why does no one suspect Creed?
He came into the office during the murder mystery episode and freaked out when Michael, quote, blamed him for murder, and he also had blood on himself in the Halloween episode.
Seems pretty viable that it could be Creed.
Amber C. from Oregon said, it is definitely Creed.
Not to mention Creed's impromptu talking head when the police were searching for weed and he says, just keep talking until the cops leave.
Also, why was Creed in the middle of nowhere on the side of the road hitchhiking to work during work bus?
Not to mention the wanted posters in the finale.
And Jessica Jay from Sweden said, Creed has stolen an identity and he's up to so many funky businesses.
Why wouldn't he be the strangler too?
And in viewing party, Jim has a line when they're watching the car trace that says, huh, I guess the Scranton strangler isn't who I thought he was.
Pam says, why? And Jim says, because the person I thought it was just showed up to work.
And then we see Creed walking in.
But fine, you don't think it's Creed?
How about Gabe? Alexis L.
from Staten Island, New York said, I think it's far more likely Gabe is the strangler.
It's well -established that he enjoys violence and horror.
He travels between Scranton and Florida, which makes it easy to elude police.
And he's super creepy.
Phil C. from Oklahoma said, Notice that the killings not only stop after the trial, but also after Gabe goes back to Florida.
But not only do they stop when Gabe leaves, they didn't start until Gabe arrived in Scranton.
I would definitely be investigating Gabe if I were the Scranton police.
But I'm not done. How about David Wallace?
Hmm. Izzy S. from Surrey, England said, I recently found out some people believe David Wallace might be the Scranton Strangler.
Apparently, he sent Holly away just as she was getting close to figuring it out.
Approached the bench.
What? When was Holly investigating the Scranton Strangler?
I don't know. Never mind.
Objection sustained.
Sorry, Izzy. I liked your argument.
All right. Tyson H.
from Salt Lake City, Utah said this.
At the writer's block panel at the wrap party in Scranton, Greg Daniels.
Greg Daniels said. Wait, we can quote Greg Daniels, but we can't quote Paul Lieberstein, your honor.
Continue. I think this is biased.
I got fast and loose.
She gets continue. You're looking at contempt of court here.
Calm down. Greg Daniels said, if the Scranton Strangler was anyone else, it would be none other than Robert California.
And my friends, if anyone possesses the four Ds of deviance, distress, dysfunction, and danger, is it not Robert California?
I have given you three very good other suspects and one that maybe we're going to throw out.
But I still have one more.
Jacqueline R. from Orange County, California, wrote in to say that she believes Moe's is the Scranton strangler.
The evidence, though circumstantial, forms a chilling mosaic of behavior, opportunity, and motive.
It's very well written.
Yeah, Jacqueline maybe should have written my whole thing.
She was great. It's nice.
I know. Jacqueline goes on to say, First, Moe's peculiar and antisocial behavior places him outside of societal norms, where many criminal profiles of serial offenders begin.
He is almost entirely isolated from society, living on a remote beet farm with limited human interaction, except for his cousin Dwight.
And a scarecrow. Thank you for making my point, Angela.
Moe's demonstrates signs of emotional instability, extreme awkwardness, and a lack of understanding of social boundaries, traits commonly associated with individuals capable of heinous crimes.
I was meaning he loved a scarecrow, like he did her and stuff.
Oh, I know what you meant.
And I think Jacqueline knows what you meant, Angela.
Is this your argument?
You think someone who does a scarecrow?
Also, I'm so sorry.
Who quietly took notes while the other person was talking?
And who is breaking in every four sentences?
I am sorry. Wait, there was a long period where I listened, and then I decided to break in.
You had a few things.
Okay. I'm going on.
Mose has odd, erratic behavior which has been well documented, such as his proclivity for running alongside moving vehicles, screaming without provocation, and displaying an unnatural interest in physical conflict as seen during his wrestling of farm animals and co -workers.
Second, Moe's physicality and access to tools of strangulation make him a credible suspect.
The tools he uses daily on the farm—ropes, chains, other implements—are eerily similar to the potential instruments used in strangulations.
Jacqueline, you are doing a fantastic job.
Right? Right? You see why I'm ending with Jacqueline here.
Third, and most damning, Moe's had both the opportunity and proximity to carry out these crimes.
Scranton is not far from Shrewd Farms, and the rural locations offers the perfect hideout for someone evading suspicion.
While the documentary crew focused on Dwight's activities, Moe's whereabouts were often unaccounted for, giving him ample opportunity to commit these heinous acts without raising suspicion.
His ability to blend into the background as a peculiar but harmless farmhand works to his advantage, allowing him to operate unnoticed.
In conclusion, I'd like to quote Allie W.
from Moorpark, California, who says, Ladies, no, Toby is not the strangler.
His only crime is being pathetic and uninteresting and throwing out his Baba Ganoush in the office trash.
Thank you for your time.
That was very good.
That was very good.
Thank you. Thank you.
Now, how do we rebuttal?
Cassie, who goes first on the rebuttal?
See, you just went.
So you should rebuttal Angela and then vice versa.
So I have to go first now.
Yeah. And basically, like, if there is any points she made that you want to, like, take down or you have evidence, that would be what you would focus on.
Okay. Then I will say this.
Okay. Here is my rebuttal, Angela, to your arguments.
Okay. You paint an entertaining picture of why Toby is the Scranton strangler, but it's all based on circumstantial evidence.
And I believe I proved in my argument that we could paint a number of people in the world of Dunder Mifflin with that same brush if we wanted.
But none of your arguments really hold up in court.
Divorce, trauma, happens to a lot of us.
Are we all serial killers?
Angela Kay, you love fantasy.
Are you a serial killer?
Hmm. Also live in Vancouver.
You mentioned the passport.
I mentioned that Toby's fingerprints would be on record for said passport.
We know that fingerprints were left behind and they do not match Toby, but they do match George Howard Scubb.
And I know, Angela, you mentioned that you believe perhaps in addition to strangling everyone while living a life mostly documented by a documentary crew, Toby had time to murder people and frame another man.
You're suggesting that maybe Toby provided George Howard Scubb with this car?
Really? George Howard Scubb didn't want to mention that?
He didn't want to say, I got this car from someone else or anything like that when he was being interrogated by police?
I think we all need to just admit the police caught the right person, and that person is George Howard Scubb.
Thank you. Well, fantastic rebuttal.
Here's my rebuttal.
I will start with this.
You mentioned, according to the FBI, serial killers do not value human life.
I would say to you, Toby has a personality where he can compartmentalize people and have no value at all to people who should have value.
I will cite the moment when he is willing to ditch his daughter, who he barely sees, to go to Pam's art show.
I will cite the moment where he decides to leave his daughter to go to Costa Rica.
Toby can compartmentalize.
You brought up the radon poisoning.
Wouldn't that be the way Toby would finally get us all?
I would like to point out that people that have these type of personalities, one of the main things they have in common, is extreme obsessions with things.
Radon, Pam, being on this jury, they lock into something and they get into a loop and it manifests itself in very dark ways.
You mentioned the fingerprints, that Toby's fingerprints are on his passport, that they couldn't be at the scene of the crime, that George's fingerprints are there.
But we learned from Toby himself that he has studied how you can use other people's fingerprints to implement them in a crime.
He literally shared that he studied on how to do this and wrote about it in one of his books.
You make compelling arguments, along with Jacqueline, about who else could have done these crimes, but none of them had the motive that Toby had.
None of them had the rejection, the bitterness, the jealousy, the bullying.
Toby's rage is simmering quietly in the annex, and it comes out in the form of the Scranton Strangler.
Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
Don't doubt it, because if you do, he will have fooled you too.
Oh, wow. That's my rebuttal.
I think all that's left is for us to take a break.
and come back and talk with Paul Lieberstein all about it.
Yeah, this was really fun.
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So lady, you know, we're getting ready to go to Oklahoma.
Yes. Because we've got parts in a fun movie.
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.com all right we are back Paul Lieberstein aka Toby is here hello welcome to the courtroom Toby oh Oh, well.
You should know that we have entered into quite a hot debate here.
We are very excited to get your perspective.
Can we start with a little backstory?
We can, sure. All right.
Yeah. First question for you, Paul, from Kelly W.
in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Oh, this is a formal debate, sir.
This is a serious debate, Paul.
All right, well, I apologize for my attitude.
Your Honor, your Honor, can his attitude be noted?
It's on the books. Yes.
I hope you aren't a hostile witness.
I may be treated like a hostile witness.
All right. Okay. All right.
I'm used to it, too.
Aww. Toby. That's the Toby in me.
That's the Toby. Aww.
Well, here's your first question.
Kelly W. from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania said, Who originally had the idea for the Scranton Strangler?
Was he always going to be a recurring character or storyline?
Or was this something that became a continuous joke through the series just sort of organically?
Give us the background.
So it's difficult to trace this.
And I have tried. It's a mystery.
No. So there's a decent chance it was my idea.
But I can't say for sure.
And I've been contacting people.
So it first appeared in Charlie's episode.
It was like a background joke, the baby episode.
Yes. But he didn't remember writing it.
The newspaper headline.
Yeah, exactly. And we just wanted something, you know, because people always get that gift for a baby.
So we just wanted, like, an inappropriate.
Right. It went from spring has sprung to this Grand Strangler strikes again.
So I asked Greg if it was his because I know that he got very involved in the rewrite of that episode.
And he thought it was mine.
Oh. And then I asked a bunch of other people who seemed to like it and who were around at the time, including a couple of writer assistants and Danny and BJ and Halstead, and they seemed to think it was mine.
Okay. This one joke was your idea.
And Warren said he thought it was yours as well.
Yeah. But I can't say for sure, and I would hate to be taking credit for someone else's pitch.
You're so kind, Paul.
I mean the majority of the writers think it was you.
But you're still like it might not be me.
So it kind of sounds like me.
It also sounds like Mindy too.
But this was intended to be originally a one -off joke gag in the delivery.
Yeah, it hadn't been for more than that.
Okay. But it kind of grew as things do.
Yes. But I would like to note for the record, again, for the record, when conceived, this was simply a newspaper joke.
Thank you. Committed to record.
Angela, would you like to ask question number two?
I would, and I don't think what you're commending to record proves anything, but okay.
Paul. Yes, Angela. You are aware that people think Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
Yes. So Aiden B from the UK says, did Paul purposely write or play the role or plan for it to be as ambiguous as it is?
Like, is Toby the Scranton Strangler?
Yeah, I'm curious about that, too.
When did you all become aware that fans were keying into Toby being the Scranton Strangler?
Was it while we were still on the air?
No, it was after we wrapped.
So I watched that YouTube video about putting together the very first one that said it might be Toby.
And that kind of blew my mind.
There are many now.
Yeah, there are a lot.
And I watched a bunch for this podcast, and they were long.
Because there's a lot of evidence to prove that he is.
Yeah, and for other characters too, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, for other characters that could be the Scranton strangler.
There's a lot of YouTube out there.
Pointing that out again.
No, it had not crossed my mind that it could be, that it would be me.
We may have joked that it could be Cree.
We might have joked around like that.
Cree definitely had a lot of different lives that he led.
Yes. Yeah, which came out really strongly in season nine, I guess.
But that's the kind of thing you can do in the very end, right, I guess.
Yeah. And Creed – I don't know.
He existed on a whole different plane.
And he loves the idea.
He loves the idea that he was the Scranton Strangler.
And that Toby is the one everyone would pin it on, maybe, if not for George.
Well, our next question is this.
Mindy said that the Scranton Strangler was one of the most pitched things in the writer's room.
She said that if you compiled all the notes, you would have an epic and terrifying miniseries.
Do you remember any of the pitches that you guys had?
No, I think it was a lot of just this person gets strangled.
We're looking for twists in the story.
So, like, we have this list up on the board, right, of, like, after we write things, like, did we include inciting incident?
Oh, no. You know, it's like there's simple things in stories.
And so one of them was a twist.
You know, is it a straight line to the end or, you know, do we go somewhere up with this?
So I think a twist or, like, second act break commonly could be somebody gets drunk.
when we're really stretching all right next question sir we also received a letter from maria h in atlanta georgia who said have you heard the theory that the scranton strangler isn't a murderer paul lieberstein famously posted a video on instagram a few years ago saying that the writers of the office
always intended to include that the scranton strangler would just strangle his victims till they passed out but never actually killed any of them now i i loved that i thought that was super fun i'm not sure everybody was on board for that but i loved it just like strangled you and left them there and it
was passive violent crime but very like i i could kill you but i'm not going to it's weird and then it becomes less of a like crazy thing i I mean, it gets crazier, but in a way, it's just like, it's not a serial killer.
Right. It's just a serial strangler?
It's just like, oh, that was a really bad night when I got strangled and passed out.
And then you live your life.
You live the rest of your life.
And he knows. He knows.
Like, I'm going to take you to the edge.
So he's just like, yeah.
Yeah. And it's like, OK, sure.
That's traumatic. I'm not saying there wouldn't be some therapy.
But it's, like, it's so much smaller.
So this was just an idea in the writers' room.
This fact never shows up on the show.
It never shows up on the show.
This idea. No. Right.
Which means it's not officially in the lore, yes.
And then also, too, that would contradict George Howard Scubb getting the death penalty in life in prison.
You're right. You're right.
Because you don't strangle someone.
Your string of crimes just stringing to passing out doesn't get you death penalty.
Yeah, you're right.
Wow, Angela. I feel like that is maybe...
Unless... What? Unless he accidentally went too far one night and killed someone.
Right. Okay, so maybe that happened.
You don't know what that...
Yeah. Well, this leads us to one of our last questions, Paul, in our evidence gathering here.
If you could go back and add one additional storyline for the Scranton Strangler, knowing everything you know now about all of the fan interest, maybe it would wrap things up.
Would you do it? And if so, what would that thing be?
No, I probably wouldn't wrap it up for the audience.
But Scubb getting out of prison, like say we had gone another 10 years with Scubb maybe getting out of prison and getting people – Would Scubb become Toby's friend that he had always hoped for?
Or Toby could be very, very scared, you know, or members of the jury could be very scared.
Or there could be another strangling while Scub was in prison.
Well, that would definitely fuel the fire.
Yeah. And was it a copycat or did they get the wrong guy?
Interesting questions.
Yeah. We would do something like that.
Yeah. It would have continued.
Yeah, for sure. If we had continued.
The Scranton Strangler case was not over.
No, something like that isn't over ever.
We're still talking about the Menendez brothers.
True, true. Yeah. Yeah.
No, that would be the lore of the town for as long as we documented that town and that community.
Yeah, it's a big deal in the town.
Yeah. It's Scranton size.
Yeah. Angela, do you have any more questions for Paul before we get to the question?
I'm so serious. No, I don't.
I think, you know, we learned a lot about Toby today.
We learned about his athleticism, how he could just hop a fence.
No problem. I would also say that Toby has big hands.
I noted. I'm so sorry.
What is this? This is not the time for you to present more evidence.
You're just throwing out evidence right now.
What is this? You said to me, do you have anything else?
I said, do you have any more questions for Paul?
Not do you want to give a speech about what?
Now that's why Toby is the Scranton Strangler.
Okay. I will just simply say this then, Paul.
Yes. Is Toby the Scranton Strangler?
Ah! Oh, my gosh! I don't even have to win!
I don't even have to win because I won!
This is one person's opinion.
One person's opinion?
It's Toby. And by the way, one of the showrunners of The Office.
So here's why he's not the Scranton Strangler.
Oh, give it to us. All right.
All right. Because we wouldn't do that.
We're about like relatable.
This theory doesn't exist in the realm of what would we normally do.
I'm saying this should be part of the theory.
Part of the reason why he is not.
Yes. Is you have to break the fourth wall and say the writers wouldn't do that.
Well, okay. If you weren't breaking the fourth wall, then you would just say it's too unlikely.
This is like an Occam's razor kind of thing.
Like, no, the most likely thing is generally the truth.
Where the guy convicted is guilty of the thing.
You know, there was a trial.
But, yeah, if you're willing to break the fourth wall, and I've been thinking about this a lot over the last 24 hours of watching all those videos, it's just, you know, we always search for, like, the thing that people were experiencing, Which sometimes is like a proximity to a big story, but not an actual
part of it. So I feel like that would have been something we would have probably pitched, broken, we would have had a version of it, and ultimately decided like, no, this is not our show.
Right. This is not.
We shouldn't do this.
This is a jump. This would be a jumping the shark moment.
Yeah, for sure. If Dunder Mifflin had an employee that was a serial killer.
Yes. OK, so I guess that's my next question.
Toby is not the Scranton Strangler.
Does that mean that Creed, Robert California, Gabe.
Yeah. David Wallace.
Nobody is the Scranton Strangler.
No one from our show.
George Howard Scubb.
No one in the world.
Is the Scranton Strangler or was he wrongfully convicted?
That maybe we don't know.
Is the Strangler still out there that's a whole other question yeah yeah i mean uh people are wrongly convicted right every once in a while once in a while okay so generally generally not i don't know okay well maybe the cliffhanger here is is george howard scubb the scranton strangler or not we may never
know we may never know we officially mom detected of it what cassie definitely never cassie's raising her hand.
Angela, I want to give you props for like your debate, even though you lost.
There was something you brought up that I kept thinking about.
And you said that when George is driving the getaway car, that car had been parked in the Dunder Mifflin parking lot before.
Yes. Of course, that's a production thing.
But in the world of Scranton, I think that would be grounds for him to have an appeal.
Because what is that about?
And then I also wondered of all of Scranton.
Wait, that could have been he could have worked in the office park.
But wouldn't we have known him then?
Wouldn't we have known?
Wouldn't we? I mean, we got so excited when the car chase went past our building, which is interesting because he clearly knows our street.
Well, that's what I was going to say of all of Scranton.
You know, there is some statistic and I had it, but I don't have it with me now that a lot of times crimes are committed nearest where people live.
And that's why a lot of times when people commit a crime near close to where they live or work, they do a much harder job at trying to hide it because it's very close to their circle of where they live.
So the fact that he drives down the street where his car is also parked and while he's driving down the street of all of Scranton, that is where Dunder Mifflin is, and then Toby's phone rings as he's driving in that area, I think that did cause some suspicion about how is this person connected to the world
of Dunder Mifflin? Yeah.
The phone ring, I don't get.
I don't get how that points to Toby.
I don't get how that points to Toby either.
Yeah. And then so maybe he stole a car from the office park since he lives in the area.
So he definitely lives in the area, I think.
So that car could potentially – But we know he lives in Scranton, so he's got to live somewhere.
Yes. And that car could belong to someone at Vance Refrigeration or any number of other people who work in the building.
And so maybe he did steal the car.
But I feel like we would have talked about that in the office.
And maybe we did and the documentary crew didn't get it.
But I think we would be like, oh, my gosh, did you hear that such and such?
Leo's car from Vance Refrigeration was the one that the Scranton Strangler stole and drove down the street.
Yeah, you'd think that would get around.
That would get around.
Yeah. Or, or what? Maybe it was Bob Vance.
Oh, no. Don't reopen this can of worms.
Maybe it was Bob Vance.
Don't go there. He looks a little shady, like he could have some other things happening on the side.
Shady, but that's different.
I know. Yeah, I don't see it as Vance.
I know, I know. I was just playing.
I know you're playing.
i know you're playing well you don't you you don't think this is a real court of law toby i told me i called you where's the jury look around paul i took an online course i'm certified now i am certified do you see a jury in this room i do sam and cassie Yeah, Cassie, I am curious.
Before Paul gave us the definitive answer and I won because I picked the right side, who were you going to award the win to based on our debating?
Yeah, you both had great arguments and everything.
I do think Angela had the hardest job.
But yeah, I would have given it to you, Jenna, because I don't think Tobi is the Scranton Strangler.
I will also say this Jenna proudly said because I picked the right argument we just said we both have to pick one what you want to do and Jenna was like I'll say that he isn't I said okay fine I'll say he is well and I want to say I might have been awarded the win by both Paul and Cassie but I would have awarded
you the win because I thought your debate was just fantastic today I really really did I was like oh no I was sweating it when it was my turn so I feel like we both won today and you know who I really think won the office ladies community oh yeah for sure really and Paul you're in studio with us this is so fun
this is so great before you go can you tell us about your project with Audible your show Middle Space oh yeah I love this thing so much I want people to listen to it I want people to as well Middle Space It's all one word, but the full title is Middle Space, colon, The Rebels Attack, and then The Other
Side Attacks as well.
And it is one of the funnest, silliest things I've ever done.
Will you tell us sort of the world of it?
Yes. So we're in space.
OK. Let's call it the future, I guess.
And Will Forte stars as this captain.
He's so funny. Who starts off very early that they get a distress call and he decides not to go.
Not to take the distress call.
Not to go. He doesn't feel like it.
And he doesn't feel like it.
He doesn't want to.
Okay. And that's his reason.
He just doesn't want to.
And he's that kind of captain.
And he just kind of wants to float around in space.
And he's very interested in getting out of the space business, captaining business.
He'd like to get into fast food and goes around interviewing a manager of an intergalactic burger chain.
But it is, you know, four and a half hours of not a single mission.
It's just life in space.
And it's very like anti -sci -fi.
Oh, Jenna, you might like it I'm not a sci -fi fan But I love this comedy spin On sci -fi It's a satirical take On sci -fi adventure It was really fun It was a great cast John Malkovich narrated And we had a lot of great people in there I have one question Throughout the whole time Where he's looking at How
to become a fast food worker worker.
Are there more distress calls that come through that he just continues to ignore?
Yes. He ignores all work calls.
They would like to mutiny, but they're not quite capable of pulling that off because that takes a lot.
Takes a lot of effort.
Yeah. I mean, you got to kill someone.
They don't want to do that in the end.
He might listen to Mel Robbins, who likes to remind us all the time that I don't want to is a perfectly acceptable reason to not do something and reigns in it and he plays a um the rebel leader oh great and he has uh he calls up one of the people on the ship is in contact with the rebel leader clark
clark is in it and uh clark plays the uh someone on the bridge who's who's very upset that we're not taking the distress calls taking the distress calls or really doing anything you know we just know what his life's about if he's not doing something so so he gets in contact with a rebel leader and he
calls him up and his son answers and uh and they have a great conversation and it's uh played by henry my son oh and uh and we did it kind of like word by word he was really young at the time and it's so cute and it's so funny.
I can't wait to hear that, Paul.
I love that. Yeah. Well, we'll include all the information in our Insta stories and our website with links so you guys can go and listen.
That is so cool. And then, Paul, just one last thing.
We've put a period at the end of the sentence of one fan theory, and I hate to open a window here on another.
Oh, I see what you did there.
But the last time we saw you, we discussed your particular pet peeve, which is that the windows of the Dunder Mifflin building, the interior and exterior windows do not match.
Would you like a moment to speak to that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're very passionate about this.
I am. This bugged me so much.
And no one seemed to care at all.
Paul, here is this.
This is your radon.
What radon was to Toby.
These windows are to you.
So we set the windows obviously in Culver City, right?
When we were down there, we moved to the Valley in season two.
Right. Outside of that building had those big wide glass things.
And then the inside of our windows were these very small kind of like three by six rectangular windows.
There's no way they match.
I mean, it's startling.
and then um the view from anybody's any one window we would change all the time depending on what we wanted to see that's true and and that pissed me off so much too it's just like no out that window has to be this one thing and they're like nope it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter and then I broke
I broke it too and we needed to kind of like see Michael hop a train I pick that window to be outside, you know.
That's great. Yeah.
You're part of the problem.
I'm part of the problem.
Well, do you feel any better now that you've at least gotten to speak to it?
I think at one point I was like, let's not – don't point the camera up.
Don't see the building.
Just keep it low. People are going to freak out.
It's not going to be OK.
It's not the same windows.
It's so clearly not the same windows.
And then no one cared.
They point it up. I hope today there's someone listening out there, Paul, that was like, I always wondered about the windows.
I just probably ruined the show for somebody.
No. Well, Paul, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me on.
It's so good to see you guys.
So good to see you, too.
And we have settled the fan theory is Toby the Scranton Strangler.
Toby is not. He's not.
But we don't know who really is.
Is it, George? We don't know.
We don't know. We can assume.
Thank you, everyone, for listening to Office Ladies this week.
We will see you next week with our super fan breakdown of The Fire.
Yes. And you guys, be sure and check out Paul's audible show, Middle Space.
And we'll see you next week.
See you then. Bye, everyone.
That was very Barry White.
Bye, everyone. Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.
Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.
Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins.
Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer, and our associate producer is Ainsley Bubaco.
Odyssey's executive producers are Jenna Weiss -Berman and Leah Reese Dennis.
Office Ladies is mixed and mastered by Chris Bazel.
Our theme song is Rubber Tree.
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