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I'm doing two things which feel so audacious.
I'm pitching him on creating a new position in the Obama White House, namely a dedicated role for a behavioral scientist.
And then I'm saying, oh, BT Dubs, if you could also hire me into that role, that would be great.
Fresh out of grad school, Maya Shankar suddenly found herself building a whole new team of behavioral scientists inside the White House.
More than a decade later, she's still determined to use science-backed insights to help people make meaningful change in their lives and in the world.
When we witness people behaving in ways that defy our understanding of what humans are capable of, that changes our own understanding of what we're capable of.
It cracks open our imagination.
This is Masters of Scale.
I'm Jeff Berman, your host.
This week on the show, cognitive scientist Maya Shunker.
She's the author of a brilliant new book, The Other Side of Change Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans.
Maya, welcome to Masters of Scale.
Thanks so much for having me, Jeff.
I devoured your book.
So excited we get to be in conversation about it.
I mean, I gave your book a hug when I finished reading it.
So I just want to start by saying thank you.
Oh, my gosh.
You have no idea what it means to me to hear that.
And it was a three and a half year effort.
I mean, what's so compelling in part about the book is the extent to which you are doing justice to these stories of humans who have not just lived through but endured profound and difficult change.
But you're pairing those compelling stories with social science, with behavioral science, with real data and insights behind it.
And then you're making it actionable for us as people who are enduring change or managing change in our organizations.
And so I think so many people are going to get so much out of this, both personally and professionally.
But before we get to the book, you went through a pretty massive change early in your life.
Will you share the story of where you started and how things shifted for you?
Yeah, I was an aspiring concert violinist as a kid.
As we all are.
I don't know what led me to love it as much as I did early on.
It might be that my grandmother, who grew up in both India and in Burma, she played the violin just as a hobby as a little kid.
And I was so close to my grandmother.
But I so quickly fell in love with the violin.
And when I was nine, I started studying at Juilliard.
When I was a teenager, the renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman invited me to be his private violin student.
And so to say that I was single-mindedly focused on becoming a violinist would be an understatement, right.
My whole childhood was devoted to the violin and everything was going according to plan, until this one morning when I overstretched my pinky finger on a single note and I heard a popping sound and
Afterwards, after pain and surgeries and alternative treatments and everything under the sun, doctors eventually told me that it was a career ending injury.
How old were you?
I was 15.
So you're effectively given this like death sentence for this dream of yours.
I love that you use that phrase because there was something that felt so curious about my grief, which was yes, I longed for the violin forever, but it didn't feel like I just lost the instrument.
It felt like I had lost myself.
And I imagine a lot of people listening can relate to this.
Sometimes we don't know how much something has come to define us until we lose that thing.
And it's taken me decades to try to figure out how it is that we can construct our identities in ways that make them more resilient to change.
And the lesson I've learned that I love to share is you can future-proof yourself and your identity by defining yourself not simply by what you do, but by why you do that thing.
So when I asked myself, well, what did I love about the violin?
At its core, at the root.
If you stripped away all the superficial features of actually playing an instrument, human connection was at the core.
That's what made me love it, right?
And importantly, just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I lost what led me to love it in the first place.
When life took the My passion for it, my desire for emotional connection was still very much intact.
And it provided me in many ways with a softer landing to know that that part was still intact.
And I think for a lot of the stories that we hear about people who have and I use this word not in a critical way, just in an observational way almost a monomaniacal focus, because you have to right
When you're at that level.
100%.
Blinders.
That they then pivot into something else that they're singularly focused on.
Was that an impulse of yours?
I didn't think at the time there could be a replacement.
And I think many of us probably experienced that.
When you really are in something like that laser-focused blinders on from the time you're six.
You don't even have a full understanding of what the world has to offer.
And it was actually my dad who helped unlock my next step for me.
So he gave me really good advice the summer before my freshman year of college.
He said, Maya, you have been wearing these blinders for about a decade.
Your job this summer is to enter exploration mode.
I want you to read as much as you can possibly read.
I want you to watch as much as you can possibly watch.
I want you to talk to people from all walks of life.
But importantly, do this whole thing without an end goal in mind.
Because the minute you try to figure out like, okay, what's my major going to be?
You're going to prematurely limit yourself.
Right.
And it was during that period of exploration that I stumbled upon the first book I ever read about the science of the human mind.
What was that book?
It was called The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker.
And he details the marvelous, awe-inspiring cognitive machinery that's operating behind the scenes, that gives rise to our ability to both produce and comprehend language.
I just remember thinking oh my gosh, this is what's behind language, what's behind complex decision-making, what's behind people falling in love.
I mean, it just totally lit up my imagination about the mind.
As you talk about, follow your curiosity and this incredibly sage advice your dad gave you.
One of the concepts you talk about in the book is this concept of the future self.
Yes.
This idea that we are who we are today and we underestimate the extent to which we will change over time.
Yes.
So the phenomenon you're describing is called the end of history illusion.
And it basically says that we fully acknowledge that we've changed considerably in the past.
So if you were to show me footage of 10-year-old Maya or 20-year-old Maya oh my God, I'm cringing just thinking about it.
I will think, okay, I'm not even the same person anymore.
But then, interestingly enough, if you were to ask me well, how much do you think you're going to change in the future?
I would say, oh, no, Jeff, I'm done changing.
Like, what you see is what you get.
This is the finished product.
And it's this funny quirk in our brains where we believe that the present moment reflects who we are going to be for the rest of our lives.
We forget that we are constantly changing.
And...
For that reason, it's actually very important for us to be curious about ourselves as we're navigating a big change.
In fact, what you've just said is probably one of the theses of my book, which is that when big changes happen to us, they also inspire lasting change within us.
And, by and large, the people that I've interviewed over the years for The Other Side of Change, but also for my podcast.
They haven't been happy necessarily that the change happened to them.
I mean, who's going to will illness into their lives or the end of a relationship?
But they've been very grateful for the person they became.
On the other side of change yeah, they feel like better versions of themselves that would not have been unlocked had it not been for the change they're going through.
But in order to witness those changes and appreciate them, you have to almost audit yourself.
Over time.
You want to ask yourself, as you're moving through change, do Are my values changing?
What beliefs should I revisit that might be holding me back?
How can I adopt new perspectives so that I can see my situation differently?
So you fall in love with cognitive science.
Yes.
You become a cognitive scientist.
And I can imagine any number of directions one would go with that.
Somehow you end up in the Obama White House.
So I remember calling my undergrad advisor, who was my mentor as a college student and really helped foster my love of the field.
And I said, hey there, thanks so much for investing in me.
I'm actually jumping ship now, really sorry.
I'm gonna try to become a general management consultant.
She's like, okay, Maya, wait, slow your roll, okay?
Before you do that, I just need to share a story with you.
She said.
I just heard a professor from Harvard Law School, Cass Sunstein, who previously worked in the Obama White House, talk about a story in which they used insights from our field, from the field of behavioral science, cognitive science, to improve people's lives.
So long story short, the government offers a school lunch program for low-income kids.
But despite the fact it was offered to millions of children, millions of kids were still going hungry every day at school.
And in order to try to understand why parents weren't signing up their kids, they did a behavioral audit of the program and they discovered at least two psychological barriers that stood in the way of enrollment.
The first was that there was a big stigma associated with signing up your kid for a public benefits program.
And then there was also the fact that there was a massive paperwork burden when it came to filling out the form.
And so what the government did is they leveraged a very elegant insight from behavioral economics.
They used the power of the default option.
So they changed the school lunch program from an opt-in program to an opt-out program.
And parents only have to take an affirmative step if they want to actively unenroll their kid from the school lunch program.
As a result, 12.5 million kids were now eating lunch at school every day who previously weren't.
So you can imagine my reaction.
That is what I want to be doing.
I want to be translating insights from our field into improvements in people's lives through public policy.
And so I emailed Cass Sunstein and I'm like, hey, I don't know you.
And I've published nothing of significance as an academic.
Oh, and by the way, I have no public policy experience.
But I'm really interested in the intersection of behavioral science and policy.
And I remember I was so insecure, Jeff.
I even wrote in the email, I know I'm not cool enough for the likes of Obama.
I felt the need to say that because it felt so preposterous that I was sending this email.
I said so.
If you have any ideas for state or local governments that might be interested in my skill set, I would love to hear from you.
And Cass, being the gem of a human that he is, writes back within five minutes of receiving my email, saying here's an email for the president's science advisor.
Send him an email and let him know that I sent you along.
Wow.
So Cass gives you an email address.
You email the person.
They respond.
And within two days you're interviewing with him and I'm doing two things which feel again so audacious.
I'm pitching him on creating a new position in the Obama White House, namely a dedicated role for a behavioral scientist.
And then I'm saying, oh, BT Dubs, if you could also hire me into that role, that would be great.
What was the role that they created for you?
The role was... very open-ended.
It was simply, you know, senior policy advisor for the social and behavioral sciences.
But I've been taught a very valuable lesson by my boss who said to me you have to build things to last in government.
He had had the experience of working for Clinton for eight years, and then Bush got elected.
And he said it was akin to having built an elaborate sandcastle at the beach for eight years and then one wave came and just destroyed the whole apparatus.
And so he urged me to actually try and institutionalize this effort so that it could persist well beyond my tenure.
And so I built this social and behavioral sciences team.
I baked it into a very bipartisan part of government which I knew could withstand leadership changes and be used to just drive more effectiveness and efficiency across government.
They didn't have a mandate and I didn't have a budget.
So I had to build an organic coalition of the willing, if you will, to try to get everyone on board.
And I had a very grassroots approach.
I just knocked on every door in government.
I said, are you willing to work with me?
I also... engaged at all levels of government.
So I think if you come in and you're like a really big deal right, you might not engage with the folks that I engage with.
Coming in is not a really big deal.
Right.
So I talk to civil servants and political appointees alike.
I talk to people again at all levels of government.
And, by the way, it's often the most junior people that are the most acquainted with the program and the ins and outs of it.
And They're the ones who have the decades-long knowledge and wisdom.
And so one of our early pilots was with the Department of Veterans Affairs.
They offer a employment and educational benefit to help veterans transition to civilian life after having been in the military for some time.
And similar to the school lunch program, not enough vets were signing up.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's the kind of work that our team did.
Right.
And as we did more and more and we built more of these proof of concept efforts, we were able to work on thornier, more challenging projects.
I'm imagining thousands of people listening or watching our conversation who work at places like Google, where you are, or other big companies where they work.
And going, gosh, how do you do that?
You were truly an entrepreneur in like the biggest company in the country.
And the one with the most red tape and the slowest moving.
Right.
What did you learn from that experience?
That folks who are at big companies or even midsize companies and are struggling to be entrepreneurial in environments that are inherently not they, can help them be better at their jobs where they are today.
Yeah, my boss called each of his teammates policy entrepreneurs from day one.
He wanted us to have that innovative mindset within a very rigid system.
And when we saw barriers to actually try to figure out creative workarounds.
I have a few answers to your question.
I think in part, actually, I benefited from some naivete.
Yeah.
I had never worked in government before.
I was not disenchanted.
And so when I ran up against barriers, I was like, okay, we'll find another way forward.
And I don't know if I would meet those challenges with the same result today.
The other thing was the importance of aligning incentives.
So when I would talk to my government agency colleagues, I knew that there was actually very little incentive for them to partner with me, because what's the benefit of taking a risk?
I mean, they work with me.
Maybe it's revealed that their program's not working as effectively as they thought it did.
They might get in trouble with their boss.
And so what I had to do was approach the conversation in a way where I made it clear that I was actually going to be helping them achieve their goal more effectively and efficiently.
So I'd ask them, Okay, you work in the Department of Education.
What are your goals for this year as a behavioral scientist?
I'm going to help you get to that goal using tools that represent our best understanding of human behavior.
Now you framed what you're doing as actually complementary to their efforts, rather than sitting as like a tangential thing or like something that might be at odds with their thing.
Right.
And so in every conversation I try to first do my research and understand what are the goals they already have in mind.
And how can the tools that I have in my toolkit help them get there faster and with more ease?
And that's when we were able to unlock some of these collaborations.
Still ahead, Maya's advice for navigating big changes in your career.
This is Mike Nicholas Capital One, business customer and co-founder of Ansett Uncles, a plant-based restaurant and community space in Brooklyn, New York.
And he's telling us how they started a product line.
We already had a space in the community.
The food was an extension of our lifestyle and our values.
So we know we wanted to create something that was an offshoot to that.
Our pepper sauce, that's my grandmother's recipe.
That's like a liquid gold, right?
If someone wants to approach us and ask us, what do we do?
We provide flavor.
Growing a product line is no small investment, but Mike and his wife and co-founder Nicole, were able to manage with the help of their Capital One business card.
Working with Capital One Business, we're able to leverage our limits and utilize those points, making sure we can continue the scale at the speed that we need it to go.
To learn more, go to CapitalOne.com slash business cards.
Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker.
I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans that combines behavioral science and storytelling to help us navigate the big changes in our lives.
I get so choked up because I feel like your show and the conversations are what the world needs encouraging empowering, counter-programming that acts like a lighthouse when the world feels dark.
Listen to A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.
Every company wants to grow, but anyone who's scaled knows the truth.
Growth creates complexity and complexity kills growth.
Bureaucracy creeps in, culture frays and suddenly the energy that built your business starts working against it.
I'm Jeff Berman, host of Masters of Scale.
And when you want unfiltered insight on fighting that drift, turn to Founders Mentality the CEO sessions with executive advisor Jimmy Allen.
Each episode, leaders from companies like Audible Walmart, China and AWS reveal how they stayed fast, focused and human, even at massive scale.
Founders mentality, the CEO sessions, business should be simple.
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back to Masters of Scale.
You can find this conversation and more on our YouTube channel.
And be sure to check out the link in our show notes to subscribe to our newsletter.
Maya took the skills she'd learned working at the White House, the Silicon Valley, and She's now a senior director of behavioral economics at Google.
She's also the host of an award-winning podcast called A Slight Change of Plans.
Both her podcast and new book focus on telling extraordinary stories of people navigating change.
The stuff that we're grappling with is very similar.
Like we're often bristling about the unfairness of the world.
We're grieving our futures that we once thought were on offer and they no longer are.
And we're nostalgic for the past or we're questioning some aspects of the past, because maybe a secret's been revealed and we don't know who we can trust anymore.
And We're worried about what it would mean to rebuild our self-identity.
Like, if the problem statement's the same for those of us going through change, then probably the solution set's gonna be the same too.
And it's been heartening for me in a time of disconnection and feeling like often that we don't have enough in common, that we actually have so much more in common than we thought.
I wanted to give people a companion that they could have in tow with them, whether they're in the throes of a change, whether they're processing a past change or whether they're anxious about a future change, so that they could actually have the tools and science-based techniques they need to get to the other side of change, and intact and full and with greater wisdom and self-awareness than they otherwise would have had.
And I think people will come back to that appendix frequently.
And so let's give them a little bit of a preview if we can.
I want to just take us through a handful of scenarios that folks may be dealing with.
The first and kind of most obvious is we're dealing with historic layoffs right now.
When someone wakes up the day after a layoff, what should they do?
First of all, I mean, it's such a deeply painful thing.
And so I think giving yourself the compassion that you deserve for that moment is critical.
We reserve, it seems, so much compassion for others and so little for ourself.
If you're anything like me anyway, you do that.
So I think, acknowledging that that's a very painful loss and it can really hit at self-esteem and identity in lots of ways,
The second thing I would say is Just because you lost your job doesn't mean that you lost all of the skills and the knowledge and the talents you honed and the wisdom that you accrued as a result of all the experiences that you've had.
Thank you so much for having me.
Look at your own CV.
Look at your bio.
And don't just look at those bullet points.
Think about the places you've traveled, to the people who have provided you with wisdom, the vantage points you've collected because of the myriad experiences you've had.
Like that is who you are.
That is the rich, multifaceted person you are.
And that person is capable of so much.
In this moment, where someone has just been laid off, where they are treating it, as we discussed earlier, as a moment to really take the blinders off and explore.
Yeah.
If they want to think about making a massive career change not trading Ford for Chevy, but really going in a whole other direction.
How should someone begin approaching that process?
One of the things I talk about and I write about in The Other Side of Change is around how we can realize the possible selves that we envision for us.
And I tap into the science of motivation in this space.
The biggest thing that I would recommend is is to not let perfect be the enemy of good and to start really small.
The difference between writing zero minutes a day and writing one minute a day is that in the one minute world, you're a writer.
And when you prime that identity, it's self-reinforcing.
It leads to a virtuous cycle.
And so I'm thinking about one of the people that I interviewed Dwayne, who was sentenced to nine years in prison after a carjacking he committed when he was 16.
And through a series of events, he actually decides to become a poet in prison.
And he just commits to writing poems every single day.
That's how he gets started.
And soon it starts to add up.
And all of a sudden, he's written a thousand poems by the end of the year.
And then he gets his first poem published while he's in prison.
And then he goes on to become a Yale Law School graduate and MacArthur Genius Fellow and today is writing some of the most stirring poetry I've ever read.
But he started so small.
Another woman I talk about, Christine.
She'd always had so much passion for cooking and she developed an autoimmune condition in which she knew for sure she was going to end up blind.
She assumed all my dreams of becoming a cooker over, but then she started small.
As her vision was rapidly deteriorating and then she became permanently blind.
She made small goals like today or this week or this month.
I'm gonna learn how to cut an orange.
I'm gonna learn how to scramble an egg.
And we know from research that taking a really big, daunting goal like finding a new job and becoming employed again, or let's say you're trying to write a book, These are very overwhelming and intimidating when seen in the aggregate.
But if you break it into a bunch of mini milestones, a bunch of mini steps, like today, I'm just going to work on the top half of my CV.
Tomorrow I'm going to work on reaching out to three possible contacts within my community who might be able to facilitate my next step.
There are research studies showing that that accelerates people's transition back to work.
And we also know that breaking the big goal into smaller goals helps us avoid what's known as the middle problem.
So it turns out our motivation over the course of goal pursuit is not stable.
It's not linear.
It's not linear.
Yeah.
We get a huge boost in motivation at the beginning, and then we get a huge boost in motivation at the end.
But there's this middle period where there's an AD or there's a drop in motivation because kind of a no man's land it's like a little painful.
You just want to jump ship.
And when you break a year-long goal, which would have a middle period of a couple months, into a week-long goal where the middle period is only a couple days, then that continuous stretch of middle period is much shorter and you're less likely to fall off the wagon, right.
You're less likely to be susceptible to the middle problem.
The other thing is to be aware of how our brains form memories.
So this is seminal work by Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel Prize laureate, who learned that when we reflect back on how positive or negative an experience is, we don't give every moment in time equal weight.
So we tend to give more weight to the end of the experience and to the peak of the experience, whether positive or negative, hence why it's called the peak-end rule.
What this means functionally is that we can shape the end of our experiences to be slightly more enjoyable, so that we just remember them more fondly and are more likely to return to the activity at hand.
So let's say you have a really tough workout.
Do a enjoyable breathing or stretching session at the end but tack it onto that session so it feels like it's part of the workout.
You might look back on it more favorably.
You're writing the hardest parts of the book first.
Maybe at the end, you just outline or put bullets down for the next paragraph.
And those small little tweaks can actually help you increase your likelihood of returning to the goal.
The last chapter of Maya's book tells the story of the biggest changes she has faced in recent years.
It is an incredibly vulnerable story of the loss of multiple surrogate pregnancies.
I want to close my by asking you about two practices you talk about in the book, one that's quite personal after the miscarriages, which is I think it was your husband who suggested that you name five things that you're grateful for, which is a Hoffman Institute practice.
And then also the concept of awe.
Could you just share a little bit about both of those as practices to navigate through grief and change?
So, as you said, on the night of the second miscarriage, when we found out about the twins, my husband came into the room, and he's a software engineer.
So he unknowingly engaged me in what's called a self-affirmation exercise.
So what's a self-affirmation exercise?
You just take five or 10 minutes and you write down all the identities, all the things you really value in your life, that give your life great meaning, but that importantly, are not threatened by the change you're going through.
If you're in a rough patch in your work life, you might emphasize your spiritual life.
If you're having a rough go at it in your relationship, you might emphasize that you are so grateful for your friendships or for the community and the PTA that you're part of.
So Jimmy comes into our bedroom and I'm like under the covers feeling very sorry for myself.
And he's like, let's just name a couple of things we're grateful for.
And I was like, hell no.
Okay, I do not want to do this right now.
You take your toxic positivity nonsense and like go into the corner.
You do the gratitude exercise.
But I was not having it.
It was such a jarring day, Jeff.
Like we had seen healthy heartbeats earlier in the day and then we found out this devastating news.
So I just felt like it was a roller coaster of emotions and it did not feel appropriate for us to be expressing gratitude.
But I looked at Jimmy and he was like sweetly smiling and it just felt like it was coming from such an earnest place.
I was like, fine, I'm going to do this.
And at a minimum, I'm just going to get this guy off my case, right?
So I start to rattle off a couple things.
I'm like, well, I'm really grateful that I get to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews.
I love my Zoom workouts with my trainer, Matt.
Like we get to gossip about The Bachelor and Love is Blind and all these other crappy reality TV shows we watch.
I love that I get to host a slight change of plans.
Like what a joy to get to connect with people all over the world who are willing to open themselves up to me in this really profound way, and we can make this a beautiful show together.
And this list just flowed out of me.
I had so many things that I was grateful for.
And I swear something magical happened in that moment.
I had been so single-mindedly focused on achieving my goal of becoming a parent that I had completely lost perspective of how otherwise rich and multidimensional my life was and my identity was.
So much so that I felt like in that moment with that blow, I had lost everything, right?
And so as a result of doing this affirmation exercise, did I go to bed cheery?
Of course not.
I was super, super sad.
But did I go to bed feeling slightly more whole and intact?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And so I would recommend to anyone listening it doesn't matter if you're even in the throes of a change write down an affirmation list of things that matter to you and add to it as you live your life.
And I'll share that, the Hoffman practice, which I just love.
There's a slight spin on it, which is three things you're grateful for.
So it could be your partner, it could be your job, whatever it might be that's giving you meaning.
But then it's three things you appreciate about yourself.
Oh, I love that.
And for high achieving people, it's really hard.
I think there's something to pairing those, those two components that, to your point, it's not like it's all going to be roses and joy and cheer and laughter.
But it's deeply grounding in a moment where you might feel terribly unmoored.
Exactly.
No, I completely agree.
The other thing you asked about was awe.
And first of all, let's define awe.
So my dear friend Dacher Keltner, who's a professor at Berkeley, defines awe as the feeling of being in the presence of something that is vast, that transcends our understanding of the world.
And we know from neuroscience studies that when we feel awe, it dampens neural activity in regions of the brain that are associated with self-immersion.
So functionally, what it does?
It allows us to step outside of ourselves, outside of our individual wants and needs and anxieties, and to remember that we are part of a collective.
We are part of a community of humans that are all trying to do this together.
And I think when we think about awe, conventionally we think about things like art and music and nature.
But my favorite kind of awe that does not get enough attention, Jeff, is moral beauty.
So psychologists talk about a concept called moral elevation.
Moral elevation is that warm, fuzzy feeling we get in our chests when we witness someone else's moral beauty.
So it could be their kindness, or their courage, or their self-sacrifice, or they're willing to forgive, or their resilience in the face of hardship.
Whatever amazing character trait it is, that can inspire moral beauty within ourselves.
And what's amazing about the experience of moral elevation is that it doesn't just feel good.
It actually changes our brains.
When we witness people behaving in ways that defy our understanding of what humans are capable of, that changes our own understanding of what we're capable of.
It cracks open our imagination about what we're capable of.
And, for example, when you've just lost your job, you're probably feeling not only despair but a feeling of being stuck right.
It's very, very hard for you to imagine new possibilities for yourself.
I talked earlier about how Dwayne, the guy who was sentenced to nine years in prison, ended up becoming a poet.
Well, how did that happen?
He actually had an encounter with with moral beauty while behind bars.
He gets to know a guy named Bilal who defies all of Duane's stereotypes about what it means to be a prisoner.
So Bilal shows so much care for the younger boys in prison and teaches them how to box as a means of protecting themselves from violence in an environment where Duane thought you had to be ruthlessly self-interested in order to survive.
Bilal wakes up an hour before count time and does 250 push-ups and irons his prison clothes.
And Duane also says that Bilal taught him how to be lovely.
And it was through that experience of moral elevation that Duane for the first time realizes that maybe he isn't destined to become a certain kind of person just because he's a prisoner.
Maybe you're not destined to become a certain kind of person.
Maybe all those feared selves that you're imagining because now you're a caregiver or you're a college dropout, or you're unemployed maybe all those selves don't actually have to come true.
Maybe there's a whole suite of hoped-for selves that you just haven't thought to think about yet, to conjure up yet.
And I love moral beauty as a tool because it is available to us when we're walking down the street and we witness someone doing something kind for someone.
It is actually available to us everywhere if we are just keen observers.
I can't think of a better place to wrap.
The book is The Other Side of Change.
Folks are going to love the book and get so much out of it.
Thank you so much for being on Masters of Scale.
Thanks for having me, Jeff.
This was such a thoughtful conversation and you asked wonderful questions.
So it was a pleasure.
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks again to Maya Shankar.
Her new book is The Other Side of Change.
Whatever kind of transformation you may be facing or trying to make, this book will be an invaluable tool.
And I have to say, I probably start a couple of dozen of these kinds of books a year.
I finish maybe half of them.
It is the rare one that I absolutely devour and literally hug when I finish it.
Maya's book, The Other Side of Change, is one of those books.
I can't encourage you enough to pick it up and give it a read.
Be sure also to check out her podcast, A Slight Change of Plans.
We'll put a link to both in the show notes.
I'm Jeff Berman.
Thank you for listening.
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