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Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid. Morbid. It's morbid. Hello, welcome to our show, everybody.
Welcome. And you know what? We've been getting like this month for some weird reason in September 2020, in case you're just joining us.
Yeah. We have had a ton of new people joining the show, like listeners.
So many new listeners. So hello, new listeners.
Welcome. Welcome to the madness. And if you started from the beginning and you got here, kudos to you.
Because you stuck through us recording underwater.
And also us not realizing how long our intros should be.
Yeah, when they were like 10 minutes and I was just talking about what I did at work that day.
Yeah. Sorry. We got better, I think. So you know what?
Welcome. We're glad to have you. Hope we keep you. and yeah so we're excited about that I don't know what it is but It's pretty cool.
I wonder if it's Crime Countdown. Like, people started listening to Crime Countdown.
And then they were like, oh, I didn't, like...
It's so weird to think of people listening to Crime Countdown first.
I know it is weird just because like this has been a long time. around for so long it's like huh but if you're here from crime countdown that's awesome Welcome.
And thank you for listening to both. Yeah, and you know what?
If you haven't listened to Crime Countdown yet, go listen to it.
It's awesome. I love doing Crime Countdown.
It's so much fun to record. We love Crime Countdown.
It's so fun. So yeah, so that's fun. We don't really have a whole lot of like... craziness to go over here.
I can tell a really funny story that happened last night that is kind of relevant.
Oh, I want to know. I actually I tweeted about it.
So some of you listening may be like, oh, yeah, I know the story.
So last night. We put the kids to bed and we suddenly, John was upstairs, I was downstairs, And suddenly I heard this huge thud.
Oh, I saw your tweet. And it like shook the house, like shook the side of the house.
And I was like. Did one of the kids just fall out of bed?
That's what I assumed. And it would have shook the house, do you think?
Well, yeah, because the house... Your house is so old, you literally drop like a pen on the floor and the whole house shakes.
It's insane. And, you know, a dead weight child falling onto the floor is definitely going to like shake them. living room.
So I ran up there and I was like, did you just hear that noise?
And John was like, yeah, I thought it came from downstairs.
I was like, no. So I ran into the kids' rooms.
They're all sound asleep. Everyone's fine.
Looked around. There's nothing on the floor.
Nothing has fallen. I look in every room.
Nothing has fallen. Remember when that happened to us that one time and then finally we found it?
But there was nothing. So I was like, that's weird.
So I went back in our room and I'm like, yeah, weird.
And I'm telling John, like, I didn't find anything.
As we're talking, something above our heads in the attic crashes onto the floor.
Shut up. And both of us looked up and John was like, that was in the fucking attic.
And I was like... Oh shit. So I was like, okay, what do we do?
Was your heart? like pumping and thumping because i'm like oh my god because the other thing is the attic door is on the side of the house where the kids rooms are right So I was like, oh, I'm going to have to kill someone today.
Right. Like that was my thought. I was like, we're going to kill someone together.
I love that your first thought was like I'm not gonna because my first thought would be oh I'm gonna die today like that sucks I'm really bummed out about it Yours was, oh, I have to complete murder today.
Like that was literally. I love the differences in our psyche because I 100% would be like, I should have gotten Chick-fil-A today or something.
You know what I mean? And I know it's problematic.
Don't at me. I know my first thing was like, well... motherfucker isn't coming down those stairs to my kids' rooms.
It's just not happening. So, but then how, it's like, how would they have gotten up there in the first place?
They really couldn't. So it's really not, but it's like the thought in my head was like, someone's in there.
Cause you know, stranger things have happened.
So I, John immediately grabs one of my old softball bats.
Incredible. and he wants to go up there by himself nay sir and I was like No, no.
I'm not letting you get murdered by some weird adequately.
I was going to say... I had full confidence he could do it, but my thing was...
You're not going to let him get... I don't want him to get hurt.
Potentially hurt. What if they try to take a swipey swipe at my husband?
I'm going to come at them. Yeah, you're just going to...
You're just going to get the job done. Yeah, like fuck that.
Women. Women. And I just had to be up there.
I couldn't just stand down there passively and hope that he was fine.
It just isn't my way of doing things. That's good.
So I was like, I got to go up there. I got to be backup for him.
So the only thing near me at the time was my horror memorabilia. incredible which was a signed friday the 13th uh machete machete so i grabbed it You grabbed a machete.
Grabbed a machete and just waltzed up to the stairs.
And I called to John. I'm like, I'm coming up.
And he's like, why are you coming up? And you're like, well, I have a machete, so I'm coming.
I got the machete. And he's like, what the actual hell?
So we looked around. No one's in there.
There's no animals or anything. But like a day or two before, I had brought the girls upstairs with me to look for Halloween decorations.
Yeah. And of course, four-year-olds touch everything and they're moving all the stuff.
They're finding their old toys. So they're just moving shit.
Yeah. And they had teetered their Barbie Dream Camper, as well as the...
The airplane. No, not the airplane. It was the bassinet.
Oh, bassinet. Oh, shit. No. I almost said it too.
I literally went... But I stopped myself.
So, beeps bassinet. And they... They were playing around with them, and I had put the bassinet on top of another box, and the camper was teetering on something.
Both of them were on the ground. And it makes sense that they made the big crashing noises.
Yeah. But of course, John was like, that's all well and fine.
Like, how did they end up on the ground?
Yeah, that's the thing. There's no cool draft right now.
No, there's really not, and there wasn't up there, but...
But all I can think of is like physics. They were teetering.
Eventually they were going to fall over.
That's fun for you. And even if it's, honestly, if it's an old timey ghost up there just knocking shit over, that's fine.
Yeah. I would much rather that than an actual person.
Think of just like me as an old timey ghost.
Like I'd be clumsy. Yeah. I could never think of you as an old-timey ghost.
You would always be the Britney bitch kind of ghost.
Thank you so much for that compliment. Yeah.
Oh, speaking of old-timey things and how we didn't do long intros anymore, but just really quick.
Yeah. I always say how, like, I'm not going to buy antiques.
I know. I bought an antique. I know. As soon as you said it, I was like, dude, you just said.
I know I literally just said it, but they're hard to not buy.
We found this wicked cute little antique store.
I forget what it's called, but I'm gonna have to plug it next time.
It's in North Attleboro. And it's so cute.
And they had... Annie was checking out.
She got like all these like old matchbox cars.
Oh, I love that. She's going to like start a collection, which I think is awesome.
Amazing. And then she's checking out and there's all these Vogue covers, but like as paintings, like big paintings.
Yeah, that's cool. And she goes, I'm literally across the store.
She goes, ah! She's like, we gotta get this.
So we got that and then I got like a little trinket box that was a telephone.
So cute. Because it reminded me of Nanny.
Oh, I love that. I hope it's not haunted and I hope it doesn't bring a demon into my home.
I love that. I feel like it's too small, too.
Oh, yeah, that's true. But there can be tiny demons.
Yeah. Oh, tiny demons. You have a tiny demon in your home now.
I would rather a large demon versus a tiny demon.
Because tiny demon, I feel like, can be a child's demon.
Yeah, and they can get into too many places.
Yes. Crevices. Crevices. So I think now that we have regaled you all with our Tales of craziness the last day or so.
Ghosts and antiques. Wild lives. We are so crazy.
Wild and crazy. I think we can get back into what we're here for.
What are we here for? True crime. What do we want?
True crime. When do we want it? Like 10 minutes ago.
All the time. So today's episode, I'm going to cover...
Another Scottish case. You're so into Scotland lately.
I know. I feel like I'm just like drawn to you, Scotland.
So hello, we're back at Scotland. And this is the case of Peter Tobin.
Pizza Tobin. He's a real dick. this one.
I believe it. Now the reason I got into this one was because originally I was going to cover Bible John.
This episode. I'm going to cover Bible John next episode, actually, as like a continuation.
I don't even know who that is. You're gonna know.
I guess so. The reason that I was gonna, that this kind of, like, all led together was because some people, including the original investigators on this case, think that Bible John, which is an unsolved case, is Peter Tobin.
So, we shall see. But we're going to talk about just Peter Tobin in this episode, and then we will lead into, is he Bible John?
Next episode. What do you think? I don't know.
Okay. I'm not sold yet. Maybe I need to read a little bit more about it, but I feel like I'm not sold yet.
I'll have an answer on the next episode for sure.
Okay, cool. Tobin, we don't know a ton about his childhood.
I couldn't find anything. So that's weird.
Was he born a long time ago? He was born, not really.
He was born August 27th, 1946. So really not that long time ago.
No. But I think he was just like a dick.
So I think nobody really wants to claim him a lot.
Yeah. So they're just like... They're like, yeah, he was a kid once.
I'm positive of it. He was... He was born in Johnston or Johnstone?
Renfrewshire. Renfrewshire. I'm from Renfrewshire.
Are you from Renfrewshire? He was born in a place.
He was the youngest of seven. It's always the youngest that's the problem.
Thank you. I'm the youngest as well. Well, actually, my spot in the family is so confusing.
You're technically the oldest. Technically.
Yeah. Which is crazy. But like I'm the youngest in this family.
Yeah. And I'm the youngest. Figure out our family tree.
I was going to say. Have we just... That's like one of those little finger traps that just get you stuck.
Yeah. He was apparently a very difficult child.
Okay, same. He was... Not a good, no, this was a very different kind of difficult child.
Okay. He was violent. Oh, no. He was like really fucked up.
Why are there ridges on Risa's peanut butter cups?
Probably so they never slip from her hands.
Could you imagine? I'd lose it. Luckily, Reese has thought about that.
Wonder what else they think about. Probably chocolate and peanut butter.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties I would like to address you all Legal proceedings have been initiated Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts Spotify or the Wondery app At the age of seven, he was sent to reform school.
Seven? Seven years old. That's how bad he was.
Holy shit. Yeah. He then went to a borstal, which we remember that term. from ian brady and myra hensley ash is shaking i'm like no i do not remember that term A borstal is like a, almost like a military style school where you send like young men that you are usually kind of like more intelligent or able to like function on a higher level.
It's like a military reform school kind of thing.
Good thing my memory lasts two weeks. You're like, no, I don't know that.
So he did attend a Borstal. Um, and then he ended up in prison for forgery and burglary.
Wow. Great kid. So he was really killing it like right off, right out the gate.
Like starting at seven, he was letting the whole world know what he was all about.
Who I am and what I'm about. He then got married for the first time in 1969 to a woman named Margaret.
They met at a dance hall. Large. Where he often picked up ladies.
At dance halls. Did he know how to do a good jig?
I'm sure. I guess he did because he was picking up ladies.
All right. It was happening. And the thing that really connects him to Bible John is that Bible John also picked up women. at dance halls, especially the Barrowland Dance Hall, which was like a popular place.
I wish that dance halls were still a thing.
Let's go to a dance hall. Want to go to a dance tonight?
That's so cute. Let's go to a dance tonight.
So he was 20. She was 17. She said that their marriage was horrific.
Great. It was horrible and abusive. Yeah.
He locked her in rooms for days at a time and wouldn't let her leave the house without him.
That reminds me of Kellyanne Bates. He was real scary.
This is even worse. Just fair warning, dead dog.
Oh, no. She said, quote, he got me a black Labrador puppy.
No, those are my favorite. But I hadn't had Butte long.
When he cut off its head while I was at the shops and threw it out the window, I found boys in the yard using the head as a football.
I don't... Yeah. Oh, my God. So that's a thing.
And what's wrong with those fucking kids?
I know, man. what the fuck real fucked up i don't know what was happening in the water in that area what's up with all the fucked up children don't play with dead dogs heads don't do it don't do it uh so he also now as if this wasn't bad their entire marriage being this awful abusive lesson in nightmare.
Lesson. He also raped and stabbed his wife and left her to die.
But a neighbor saw blood. And he ran over and rescued her.
Oh, my God. This is a huge trigger warning. for something he did to her.
Rape trigger warning, rape trigger warning.
They found out later that he had inserted the knife inside of her.
And made it so she couldn't have kids ever again.
She could never have children. She could never have children because of it.
Oh, my God. What a fucking monster. He's an absolute monster.
What is... What is wrong with someone? Well, then in the 1970s, he went to prison for burglary and theft, and that's when she was able to leave him, like, divorce him she was terrified obviously literally tried to kill her right thought he had killed her In 1973, he married a second woman named Sylvia Jeffries.
Poor Sylvia. Yeah. She said he was horrifically abusive to her as well and their dog.
So he had a thing. It's like, don't get a dog if you don't like them.
Stop getting dogs. You have a choice to get a dog.
Right. Like, that is an absolute choice.
So they divorced in 1976. She divorced him.
The way she left him was she literally ran away with their older child. child like just packed up they had a child together they had two children together They had, shortly before the divorce, they had another baby that died at two days old because of breathing issues.
And she grabbed her older, I think it was a son, and just pieced out of there.
Thank God they were able to get out. Yeah.
Well, and then the third wife. Kathy Wilson.
These poor women. They also met at a dance hall in 1989.
She was only 16 at the time. Oh, my God.
Ew. That's like Kellyanne Bates again. Yeah, that's no good.
They had one child together, a son named Daniel.
She said about him, quote, he was all sweetness until he had me where he wanted me.
Once I was pregnant, he changed and used Daniel to control me.
It was always threats to kill or hurt Daniel if I left. he would even pick him up and mimic throwing him on the floor I felt like a prisoner Jesus Christ.
He's a literal monster. That's the thing with these people, because you're like, how do they get...
Like how do you get into a relationship like that?
I know people think that, but these people They are Prince Charming.
It could happen to anybody. It is Prince Charming.
Charming at first. When people say, like, that could never happen to me, you're wrong.
It can happen to anybody. Anybody. you are especially these kind of dudes they know how to do it like they know how to do it like My ex-boyfriend, he was not like physically abusive or anything like that.
I definitely didn't go through that, but he, in the beginning, like his, he was Definitely emotionally and mentally abusive.
Right. And he flipped a switch. When we first met, he was like Prince Charming.
Right. And that's how they get you. They get you to think, oh, well, they really care about me.
And look, they're paying so much attention to me.
They start to separate you from your family.
Exactly. Friends. And they do it slowly and methodically.
And then all of a sudden you're sitting there and you're like.
Fuck. I don't have anyone to reach out to.
And you can't get out. So it's like, that sucks.
It's scary. And these poor women are, like, married and pregnant.
Legally bound. I can't imagine that. Well, and to have children in that situation.
Ugh. Because then it's like you're not only protecting yourself, you're protecting your child.
Oh, and the need to protect your child is so...
It's like painful how much of a need it is.
So I can't even imagine what these poor women were going through.
So brings us. So that was in 1989 that they got married.
Bring us to 1993. Um, He lured two 14-year-old girls When I say lured, I mean lured them to him and then at knife point. forced them to go into his apartment oh my god um it was in hampshire where his son was daniel was in the house He drugged them by forcing them to take sedatives and literally forcing vodka down both their throats.
He raped them both, he stabbed one several times, turned the gas on, and left them to asphyxiate.
You're kidding. Both of them survived. What?
And both of them described him. And we're like, let me tell you what he looked like.
Amazing. So he tried to hide. He went, cause this is his MO.
He does this shit. And then he flees. Of course.
Like, he gets the fuck up out of there. He had a ton of aliases, which is why they think he might be Bible John, because... he's just been in so many different like identities um so he tried to hide but he was found in may 1994 um so like the next year yeah he was arrested and sentenced to 14 years but he only served 10.
Only four. This is the thing. I don't understand why you get so much less time for attempted murder just because it didn't work.
It's like... Because you should get the same.
Your plan wasn't for it to work. Right. Like, it was a failure.
And it wasn't a failure like... Like you did on purpose.
You wanted it to work. It was an implied function. failure.
You wanted this person to cease to exist and you just failed at it because you're a fucking loser and you can't do anything.
You should get I don't think there should be an attempted murder charge.
No, it really shouldn't. No. Because, yeah, you're right.
If you think about it, it doesn't make any sense.
It truly doesn't. Like, obviously. Well, you tried, but since it didn't work, lucky you.
Lucky you it didn't work and that person's way stronger than you thought they were, so.
Right. you get less time. Great. Fuck no.
That has nothing to do with you. Because it's almost like the person who survives gets punished for being a survivor.
Yes. Exactly. Why are we just realizing how fucked up this is right now?
I feel like I've said it before, but I feel like this time we like really like... undid the whole thing yeah yeah it's like like let's like like let's like like let's write a letter to our Let's dismantle the whole thing.
Yeah, let's definitely fucking do that. Piece by piece.
Let's actually just flee the country. So...
This is when Kathy was able to divorce him this time.
So his third wife divorced him. Oh, so this was before she ran away.
Okay. Exactly. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. So pretty terrible.
So they had both survived. He went into prison for 10 years.
He was out in 2004 at the age of 58 years old.
Yeah. He moved to Paisley and he was homeless because obviously...
What is he going to do? He doesn't deserve a home.
He certainly doesn't. Well, in 2005, he met a woman named Cheryl McLaughlin.
She was 24 years old and her boyfriend at the time had met um had met peter and had to like watch football with him a couple times like they were just like casual like acquaintances like i don't he didn't didn't really know him he just you know yeah um and it so he she kind of trusted him because like her boyfriend knew him right and one day before her boyfriend was coming home she agreed to sit and watch TV with him oh no Well, he had hidden a belt and some kind of ligature between the seats.
Okay, Goldenstein. And she happened to look and she was like, what the fuck is that?
Like she was immediately like, oh, that's not normal.
Which is good on her for being like, nope.
So she immediately tries to leave because she's like, yeah, I'm uncomfortable.
Some shit's about to go down. See you never.
Goodbye. Listen to that gut, man. Listen to that gut.
Well, as she tries to leave, he attacked her.
He pulled out a knife. And cut her hand, but she survived and was able to get away.
Ouch. She ended up becoming like super depressed and like having a ton of issues from it because it It was such a traumatizing experience.
That's a huge trauma. Because clearly he was planning to do something.
And when she found out later... who he was, she was like, oh, my God, he was going to kill me.
Right. That was going to happen. So once this happened, he dips again.
He gets out of there. He's going to come up with a new alias now.
It's crazy to me how people can, like, just... Disappear.
Right. Yeah. It's wild. Just fly under the radar.
So now he ends up showing up at a soup kitchen connected to a church.
Mm-hmm. This church was St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church.
It was in Anderston in Glasgow. and they hired him eventually as a handyman because he was just going to the soup kitchen for a while then he was like kind of helping out at the soup kitchen.
Then they hired him as a handyman for the church.
Okay. They hired him and he said his name was Patrick McLaughlin.
And that was a lie. Was a lie. He was Peter Tobin.
That's John's favorite last name. Oh yeah, he loves the last name McLaughlin or McLaughlin.
I think that's so funny. And it's funny because he's like, my name is Patrick McLaughlin.
And it's like, at St. Patrick's Church? Very creative.
Right. Did you just come up with that? He probably did.
And he was like, McLaughlin, that's an easy name to just throw out here.
He's like, my name is St. Patrick. My name is St.
Patrick's Roman Catholic Church. Hello. I'm here to help.
It'd be even funnier if he was like, my name is Patrick Saint.
My name is Patrick Saint. And I am from this church.
I am from the Roman Catholic Church. Can I help you?
So they were like, cool, cool, cool. So later they said he was really helpful.
A chama. They called him, quote, a godsend.
Oh. Because they said he was such a good handyman.
He's a Lucifer. He's a Lucifer, son. He's something.
So... he suddenly, I think very shortly after he started really working for them, He started noticing and becoming obsessed with a 23 year old woman who lived in the place that was connected next door to the church.
Okay. Her name was Angelica or Angelica.
I'm not exactly. I think it's Angelica. Okay.
Angelica Cluck, who lived, and she lived, it was like literally adjoining the church.
Sure. She was a student from, I'm going to say this wrong. goxow near krakow krakow krakow it's krakow it's krakow i was wrong so it's Gokzo near Krakow and that she was Polish.
So, I'm sorry. I am not. So... It was only six weeks after he had started working at the church and noticing Angelica.
That on September 24th, 2006, she goes missing.
And he's like old at this point. Yeah. So and again, she was like a student.
She was just living there, going to school, trying to make some extra money to pay for school.
Just living her damn life. She was helping out the church.
She attended the church. So she goes missing.
She was last seen. with Patrick McLachlan.
Not good. She was helping him paint a shed and she took that odd job again as a way to help pay her tuition.
So police released Patrick's picture to the public.
Uh-huh. And five days later, they found her dead.
No. She was stuffed under the floorboards of the fucking church next to the confessional.
Of the church? Yep. They determined that she had been tied up, raped, beaten, and stabbed 19 times.
Oh, and she was alive when she was put in the floorboards.
Oh my god, no. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the pathologists that consulted on this case later, her name is Julie.
I believe I talk about her later. Julie McAdam, that's her name.
She's a forensic pathologist. She actually got down in the floorboards to, like, Yeah.
And she said, first of all, it was one of the most horrific things she's ever seen.
It's making me feel like I can't breathe.
Well, she said when she was down there, she said the feeling that you were being trapped. was so overwhelming, even though I knew I was going to get out.
So she said her, I can't imagine what she was going through knowing she couldn't get out.
Because she was bound. Right. Like, bound, gagged, wasn't able to move.
And then he just put the fucking floorboard back.
Was bleeding, was beaten about the head, like...
Yeah. So she probably, like, suffocated and bled out?
Yeah. All of the above. Yep. So it's so unbelievable.
Seriously. So, again, people were like, yeah, we saw her with Patrick McLaughlin.
That's who we saw her with last, like, you need it, but he had dipped. right of course because that's what he does mo so september 30th 2006 um of Father Jerry Nugent was a parish priest at the St.
Patrick's Roman Catholic Church. And he talked to the press and he said he was, quote, utterly shattered. that Angelica had been found in the church and how horrified he was.
Meanwhile, this fucking priest was accused of raping upwards of 40 women and children no so fuck that guy seriously and this guy went on TV and was like oh it's just so sad the church and it's like go fuck yourself clearly this church doesn't mean anything to you it's just you're like hunting ground I just had to put that out there that that guy's a fucking demon, so fuck him.
So Peter Tobin, or Patrick McLaughlin, was caught... because DNA revealed that this person named Pat McLaughlin was actually Peter Tobin.
That must be so confusing. as an investigator.
Because you're like, wait, who am I actually going after?
And so when they brought him in for questioning, when they finally got him...
He said that he had a sexual relationship with Angelica, but it was mutually consensual.
And they were like, no. Was her murder also consensual?
Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Well, he said I had nothing to do with her murder.
Totally. Because they were like, we have your semen.
Like, on her. Right. And he was like, well, yeah.
Like, we had a sexual relationship, but I didn't kill her.
No. He was like, no. They had a ton of forensic evidence against him.
They were like, no, we literally have everything.
Yeah, you're dumb. His DNA was found on the cloth that was stuffed in her mouth, like gagging her.
So they were like, how did that happen? Like, no.
He had also thrown away his blood soaked jeans with her blood on them.
And they were traced back to him. And they were found in like, I think they called it like a rolly bin in the church.
Like you just threw it in a like fucking bin.
Just right there. Like an idiot? You're dumb.
Yeah. I mean, I'm glad he's dumb, but...
And that consultant pathologist that I talked about before, Julie McAdams, said...
When she took a look at the wounds, which when they showed the photos of them in court, Several people literally ran out of the court because they were like, it was so horrific.
They said that the blows and stab wounds were so frenzied and like angry that that they said there was definitely a sexual motive to this whole thing.
Yeah. For sure. He probably was like sexually obsessed.
And I wonder if he tried to like do something and she was like, no.
And she like... Right. Because it seemed like there was some kind of rage.
Rejected his advances. Right. So gross.
So he was arrested. He was sentenced to life with a minimum of 21 years.
And then what happened? Now, once this happened, criminal psychologists and criminologists, all these people were like...
This doesn't, because right now they're thinking this is his, like, first murder.
Yeah. So they're like... This seems like a really intense first murder to commit at like 58 years old.
Right. Like they're like, that's weird.
And psychologists are like, no, that just doesn't line up. murder.
Yeah, they were like, this just isn't, you have to have priors.
So of course they were like, well, he did try to gas the 14-year-old girls after raping them and he had stabbed one.
So he was definitely... That had already happened.
He was escalating at this point, but there had to be something... that was in between these things.
You didn't just go from like that to that.
And there was a long period between that too.
Exactly. So this is when Operation Anagram became a thing.
Fun. Right? So badass. I love operations.
So metal. I love it. Like Operation Anagram.
It's like, yes. Let's put on our badges and get it.
Let's do it. Let's put on leather coats and sunglasses.
Yes. And gel our hair. Yeah. So Operation Anagram was...
Formed to take a look at all of the various aliases that Peter Tobin had been living under his entire life.
Yeah. Because they were... I mean, like a dozen or so, and they wanted to see, you know, they were going to look in his past, see if they could connect him to other unsolved crimes or disappearances because they were like he's definitely got more under his belt This is giving me like Criminal Minds vibes.
Well, it really is. And he's in prison and he's telling the like psychologist. that he killed 48 people.
Okay, I don't know if I believe 48. I don't know.
What do you think? I don't know. He might be near that.
He's a ruthless son of a bitch. I guess so.
Well, then he literally smiled at the psychologist and went, prove it.
Ew. Like, I dare you. What a little jackass.
That also gives me Ian Brady vibes, too.
I feel like he would have done that. Wait until you, he's a dick.
He's a real dick. So this is when they were like, This is when they connected him to the Bible John murders, which we'll talk about next week.
Okay. Or next episode, excuse me. In Bible, John is known as the British Zodiac Killer.
Oh, shit. Yeah. That's cool. That's not cool, but... So cool.
That's awesome. It is cool, though. So finally they were able to connect him to a missing person's case.
Yes. They connected him to the Vicki Hamilton case, which she was a 15-year-old girl.
She disappeared February 10th, 1991, which is right in that, because remember, those 14-year-old girls were 1993.
So 1991 is probably when he was starting to do this shit.
Right, right. Or before that, but like. Because even that first one where he lured them into his home, that's the one From 1993.
Right. Like, that's big. So it's like, did you do something before that?
Exactly. So that's what they're thinking.
Like, because he did want to kill them. So...
So February 10th, 1991, she disappeared.
She was one of three girls to Michael and Jeanette Hamilton.
She was, again, I tried to look for more background on a couple of these girls, but there's not a lot of information about them.
Sometimes they're just nothing. I got what I could, but if I can add later, I will.
She was last seen waiting for a bus, and that was it. she was gone no one knew where and I think she had been at like a she possibly at a dance hall that night she was out that night okay and was going home So 11 days later, someone found her purse in a gutter.
And it was in between the rail station and the bus station.
Yeah. So that's alarming. Everything was still in the purse.
And they surmise that he might have thrown that purse in this location on purpose. yeah to make the police and her family think she ran away via railway station or bus station that's just stupid And so he, at the time, Peter Tobin, at the time that this had all happened,
After she went missing, he moved 500 miles away to the south end of England in Kent, Uh-huh.
He bought a little terrace house and what nobody knew. was that he buried Vicki Hamilton's dismembered body in his backyard.
Stop. So he moved that far away and took her on the journey.
Took her dismembered body 500 miles away with him.
Oh, that is foul. Now, in 2006, when this Operation Anagram had begun...
They found out that Tobin lived at the time of Vicky's disappearance.
They found out that he had lived very close to where she disappeared.
Uh-huh. And that's when they were like, he's connected.
That's when they started pulling all this stuff.
So at the time... DNA linked him to DNA found on the purse.
Okay. It was actually not his. It was his son Daniel's DNA on that purse.
Oh. which makes me stressed in a whole different way because his son was small.
Right. Which means she might have been in his car where his son was...
Or maybe was in the car where the son had been and, like...
Because he was also known to do the thing that we've seen in a few cases where he would pick up women and make them feel comfortable by having his sons... toys behind him in the backseat.
Right. So it's possible that she was in that car.
It was transfer DNA. Okay. I really don't want to believe that his son was actually present for any of this and somehow was able to touch that purse because...
That poor child. Yeah. I've tried to look up things about Daniel, by the way, and I haven't found anything, but like, I hope he's okay.
I do, too. I really do, because I'm like, you poor thing.
And all his ex-wives, I hope they're okay.
I know, I really do. So... They ended up, once they found out that this DNA on the purse matched Daniel, they were able to go to Peter Tobin's home And in a loft, they found a knife.
That knife still had Vicky's DNA on it in 2006.
Wow. So they were able to use ground penetrating radar to find that there were remains in his backyard.
That backyard that he had moved 500 miles away to live in.
Yeah. They dug up his garden. And they found a set of partial remains bound and gagged.
And they were, like, dismembered. They also found another set of remains buried in there that they were like, oh, stop.
What's that? So the second set of remains was in two garbage bags and the victim had been cut in half at the waist.
The second body belonged to Dinah McNichol.
She was born on August 6, 1991. or excuse me, she went missing August 6th, 1991.
How old was she? I know, I'm sorry. Everybody's like, oh.
No, she went missing August 6, 1991. She was from Tillingham, Essex. and she was the fourth youngest out of five children.
Her dad was a jazz musician and her mother had died in a car crash when she was six. oh god so her father was raising her and her four other siblings alone right And he sounds like such a dad.
It's just like, oh, they wanted to. So the two parents had wanted to make sure that their kids were like, able to be as unique and as like whoever they were they never wanted to It was something like he said we wanted to raise them as individuals and not as the gang.
I love that. Which I was like, I love that.
That's a great way. That's really cool. As a result, Dinah was definitely her own person and beat to her own drummer.
She loved rave music. She dressed in thrift store finds.
She was super independent, just like a super cool chick.
She often had like dreads in her hair and was just like...
Does this like free spirit person? Like Accenture.
She liked to stand out. She would like dress up for Rocky Horror Picnic. showings and yeah, she was just cool.
So that evening she had hitchhiked with and she had met a friend at the music festival that she was attending.
She was hitchhiking back home. This guy that she had met at the festival was named David Tremlett and he was 26.
They were just hitchhiking home together.
And he got dropped off first. And he said, like he said, bye.
She was not worried about being with this man that had picked them up.
Yeah. He never saw her again. And that was it.
Yeah. So this guy got dropped off and then she went with Peter Tobin.
Oh, no. And was never seen again alive.
So she disappeared. When she disappeared, she was 18 years old.
Her father was not psyched to let her go to the festival alone that night, he said.
I hate when it's like... Like, I didn't want to, but I did.
And his reasoning is he said he wanted her to know that he trusted her.
Oh, isn't that just like, oh, now for the next, I think, 10 days, her card.
Like, her debit card was used in Southeast Hove, Brighton, Portslade, Margate, and Ramsgate.
He used her fucking debit card. debit card and you want to know what the money was on that debit card was from her mother's death Like that was the sum, like the money she had inherited from her mother's death and he used it.
Wow, what a piece of shit. And also, it's like, how old are you and you're using an 18-year-old girl's debit card?
Exactly, you're a piece of shit. Like, what the fuck?
An actual piece of shit. She was also really tiny.
I read that she was like four foot eleven.
Really? Yeah. So almost 13 years after Dinah had gone missing, she still wasn't found at that point.
Right. And her father was still holding out hope.
And he said, quote, I still dare to hope that one day she'll walk through the door and give me a hug.
He had a heart attack and four strokes while waiting for her to be found.
Jeez. According to the Guardian, he said before she was... and finally found.
He said, quote, anything that comes on TV or the radio, something about a body being found, I think, oh my God, no.
My heart panics when they say it was a boy or something.
I feel sad for the parents, but I also feel really glad it's not my Dinah.
But now I'm getting on a bit. I would like to die knowing where she is and have it finished.
Did he... Was he alive? He was able to be there when she was found.
Oh. that's good but also horrible it's like closure but like the worst kind of closure right Now, her cause of death was unable to be narrowed down by autopsy.
But the autopsy did show that she and Vicky both showed signs of being drugged with Amitriptyline, this was something that was prescribed to Peter Tobin.
He had a prescription for it. Yeah. It was like an antidepressant, but it can also be used for its sedative effects.
Okay. And when he had drugged and raped those two 14-year-old girls, that's what he had used as a sedative.
Okay, so this is like his thing. Exactly.
So this was found in Vicky's system and in Dinah's.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Now, he did the classic thing, like I said, of leaving, because this guy that had hitchhiked with her said, oh, yeah, there were... like kids toys in the back oh so that's why everybody felt okay One of his neighbors saw him digging the grave in his backyard when he was doing it.
Can you imagine seeing your damn neighbor digging a fucking grave?
Well, you want to know because he said he had the, again, he uses his son.
So this neighbor said, quote, I looked over the fence one day and saw him digging this massive hole in the garden.
And I said, what are you doing, Pete? You going for Australia?
And he said, no. He said, I'm digging a sandpit for the lad when he comes up, somewhere for him to play.
And then about two days later, then about two days went by and it was all filled in and flattened off.
So the neighbor's like, I literally saw this and I was like, that's weird.
But like, what do you, you're not going to automatically be like, he probably murdered someone and buried them there.
Unless you're us. Exactly. But the poor guy is like, now he's like, shit.
So December 2nd, 2008, he was convicted of Vicki's murder and sentenced to life.
He was convicted of Vicky, Dinah, and Angelica's murders.
Okay, good. So he got three consecutive life sentences.
Okay. What the judge said to him was, you stand convicted of the truly evil abduction and murder of a vulnerable young girl in 1991. and thereafter of attempting to defeat the ends of justice in various ways over an extended period.
Yet again, you have shown yourself to be unfit to live in a decent society.
It is hard for me to convey the loathing and revulsion that ordinary people will feel for what you have done.
I fixed the minimum period which you must spend in custody at 30 years.
Had it been open to me, I would have made that period run consecutive to the 21 year custodial period that you were already serving.
Wow. So that judge was like, if it was up to me, you would never get out ever, ever, ever or have any chance to.
You vile piece of man shit. Because you are disgusting.
Now, Vicky's father had to be carried out of the courtroom with help because he was so upset during the trial.
That makes my heart race. hurt so much and I read in several sources that Vicky along with Dinah was also cut in half at the waist yeah And then some just said dismembered.
So I'm assuming it is just cut in half at the waist, not that that's just.
No, I wonder why he did that, because it's like you're burying them in the backyard.
I wonder if it was just, I think it was probably just for transport.
Yeah, it's easier to transport two bags of tabs than a whole, you know?
I'm sorry, did you, because were they, they weren't murdered in his house?
We don't know where they were murdered. Yeah, because it's like you wonder like if they were murdered in the house, then I mean... he could just drag them out to the backyard where he was going to put them.
Well, no, because he had moved... 500 miles away shortly after he had killed Vicky.
Vicky, right. And then Dinah was killed shortly after Vicky, so he could have moved after that and transferred them both.
There you go. Yeah. So, what Vicki's father had to say about him was, quote, that evil bastard took part of my life away. my daughter and the grandkids I could have had when they said he had cancer it was the best news I had ever read in the paper Because what happened was after he was put in prison, he got diagnosed with cancer.
Unfortunately... Somehow this motherfucker is still living.
Right now? Yep, he's still living. Damn.
He's being held at Edinburgh's Sutton Prison.
And he brags again that he killed 48 people, but he's been telling psychologists, you got to figure it out.
But he's not going to give any information.
And you think he did. I think he killed a lot more people.
I think he killed a lot more, definitely.
When asked how he felt about the victims' families, he said he, quote, couldn't give a fuck about the families of his victims.
Wow. That's literally a quote I couldn't give a fuck.
It's like, what went so wrong in your mind that you're just such a monster?
He also had several strokes and heart attacks in prison. lived through them all, unfortunately.
He even faked his own death while in prison.
He tried to pretend he was dead. And he didn't think that they were going to check for a fucking pulse.
Apparently, yeah. And in 2019, he was diagnosed with, this is when the cancer diagnosis came.
He lost a ton of weight. He couldn't eat.
They thought he was going to die. They said they didn't even think he was going to live to Christmas 2019.
Mm-hmm. surpass that. Here he is. He's baffling everybody.
Dinah's brother Dan said he hopes when he found out the cancer diagnosis, he was like, cool. cool, I hope he suffers.
Yeah. And then he was like, I honestly don't want him to die.
I want him to suffer. I was just going to say that it's almost better that he's alive because he's suffering like a lot.
He sure is, because he's in his late 70s now, or early 70s, I can't remember.
I can't do math. He's Papa's age. Yeah, I was going to say, I was like math.
Same year. You're right, 46. Yeah. So, and just leading into the next episode, Detective Joe Jackson, who worked on the original bible john case and looked into this case detective joe jackson could you have a better name You have to be a detective, a homicide detective, if that's your name.
He said he firmly believes... that Peter Tobin is Bible John.
Wow. And he said he actually staked out at Barrowland Dance Hall during the Bible John event. murders looking to see if he could spot him and he said he just knows he's him Do I have to wait until next episode to find out why he's called Bible John?
You sure do. Fuck you. It's exactly what you think it is, actually.
It's not even... very creative. I don't even, like, is it a religious murder?
Well, he kind of like spouts religious shit, but we'll get into that next episode.
So that is Peter Tobin. That was crazy. He's the worst.
Yeah. He's real bad. Real bad guy. Yeah, he's a real bad guy.
He's potentially a lot of real bad guys.
Yeah, he is. He's potentially like dozens of real bad guys.
Wow. All wrapped up into one little shit stain.
I know. It's true. I'm worried he's going to die.
I mean, I know he's going to die and he's going to take...
Every secret he has to his grave. He's going to be an Ian Brady.
Yeah. He's going to go taunting everybody and just being like, fuck the world.
Maybe even worse, because I mean, Ian Brady definitely didn't kill as many people as he did.
Wow. I know. That's so sad for those families too.
Like all these families with missing kids that probably know that it was Bible John or Peter.
Oh, yeah. Peter fucking Rabbit or whatever his alias is at the time.
What do we have? Peter Tobin, Patrick McLaughlin.
James Kelly. And potentially Bible John.
Yeah. And there's way more. I'll see if I can come up with the rest of them.
But yeah. He came up with all. He was McLaughlin a lot.
McLaughlin is a fun last name. He chose McLaughlin many times.
Wow. Yeah. So that is Peter Tobin. And yeah, he's a fucked up individual.
I think there's a book. There is a book, and I'll mention in the next episode, that is... um written basically connecting him to the bible john murders and i'll recommend it for the next one because i'm going to finish it but yeah so next or i keep going to say next week i know episode we're going to talk about Bible Joan.
Bible Joan. Before we get the hell out of here, we're gonna thank...
The backbone of this podcast. Patronuses.
Patronusars. We finally are organizing who we have thanked and who we haven't thanked.
So without further ado... Thank you to Abby Gross.
Thanks, Abby Gross. You're not gross. At all.
Thank you to Alana Oberg. Alana Olberg, thank you so much.
Cool last name. I like that, Olberg. Angela Reber. angela reber you are not justin bieber no thank you we love you Next is Arika Jean Horstman.
Arika Jean Horstman. You have a great name, and I thank you for bringing it into my world.
Same. Then we have Ashley, spelled like mine.
Ashley spelled like yours. It's crazy. And her last name is McEwen.
McEwen, Ashley McEwen, thank you so much.
Thank you. Next up is Brecken Morgan. Brecken Morgan.
That's a great name. It rhymes with heckin'.
Heckin'. You're heckin' great, Brecken. Thank you so much.
Next, we have Cameron Tweedy and Sydney Vickers.
Cameron Tweedy and Cindy Vickers, you... Sydney.
Oh, Sydney Bickers, excuse me. Well, Sydney.
Hello, Sydney. Hello, Sydney. Hello, Sydney.
You guys are the best, and I want to give you a Snickers.
We bet you're a final girl. Next is Casey Cahill.
Casey Cahill. We love an alliteration. We do.
And Cahill is just like, I don't know, it's got a nice feel to it.
It does. Yeah, it does. Cahill. Cahill.
Cahill. I bet you're nice. Yeah, you are.
And last but certainly not least is Chrissy Allen.
Chrissy Allen, thank you so much. Your last name is a first name and that's fun.
Same. Yay. We love you. Thank you so much, Patronuses.
We could not do this without you and we appreciate you endlessly.
Endlessly. we're very excited for you to get your fun gift we're working on it we are we had to approve it first because we don't just give you shit No.
So get ready. It's intricate. So in the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram.
At morbid podcast. You can hit us up on Twitter.
At Amorbid Podcast. You can do... A Gmail.
It was like an email. An email. Morbidpodcast.gmail.com.
And we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it cool.
But not somewhere that you go by like 45 aliases and bury somebody in a church while they're still alive. because that's absolutely horrific and not so weird that you would move 500 miles away while you're still like in the car with somebody that you dismembered and not so weird that you're a dad and you use your kid to murder people.
Don't do that. That's real bad. Thank you.
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