Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise
prices due to inflation.
They said yes.
And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those owners to your contracts, they
said, what the f**k are you talking about?
You insane Hollywood s**t.
So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month.
Give it a try at MintMobile.com slash Switch.
$45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees, promoting for new customers for limited
time.
You're listening to Luke's English podcast.
For more information, visit teacheluk.co.uk.
Hello listeners, welcome to the podcast.
Here's a brand new episode for you and I'm going to start the introduction in just a second.
I just wanted to say that you can find the script for this introduction on the page for
this episode on my website.
You'll see a link in the description.
I often do that.
If I've written an introduction script in advance, I print out the script or at least I
sort of put the script on the episode page for that episode.
So you can always find the relevant episode page for an episode in the episode description.
And you can go there and often you'll find an introduction script or some other useful
links or other notes and things, sometimes vocabulary notes and things.
So it's always worth having a look at that.
And that is the case for this episode.
So if you'd like to read this introduction, you can find it written out on the episode
page link in the description.
Okay, you're welcome.
Now let's begin and let's start reading through that introduction like this.
So my guest today is my friend Max who works at UNESCO.
UNESCO.
UNESCO.
You probably do.
I'm sure you've heard of it, but do you know exactly what goes on there and how they
do things and what they do?
So UNESCO, that's UNESCO, stands for the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural
Organization.
Here are some notes from Wikipedia.
So UNESCO is a specialized agency of the United Nations, which has the aim of promoting
world peace and security through international cooperation in education, arts, sciences and
culture.
Perhaps the most famous thing they do is protect certain world heritage sites, but that's
only one of the things that they're involved in.
So I expect that that's what they're most well known for.
You probably have heard of UNESCO world heritage sites.
In fact, there's a good chance you've got some in your country.
This ones include things like the Galapagos Islands, Yosemite National Park, what else?
Stonehenge in England, the Great Wall of China, Red Square in Moscow, the Great Barrier
Reef in Australia, Halong Bay in Vietnam, right?
UNESCO world heritage sites.
Now that's only one thing that UNESCO does.
My friend Max works there.
And in this episode, you'll hear us talking about his work and about communication in
the context of international diplomacy.
Now this is actually quite complex stuff.
And normally in these situations on this podcast, when I'm talking about something that's
potentially a bit complicated, when I'm publishing an episode like this, I have to make certain
decisions about what to say in the introduction.
How much should I explain in advance?
What kind of support should I give to my audience before you listen?
And people listening to my podcast have varying levels of English.
And rather than slowing down and stopping to explain every single word, I want to give
you a conversation at natural speed, but explaining some context at the start can really help
a lot of people.
And so that's what I'm doing in this introduction.
It's not just because of English, either.
It's also just a question of general knowledge too.
So I'm going to try and inform you about UNESCO in order to help you then really get the
most from this conversation.
Before I met Max, I didn't really know a lot about what UNESCO did.
And honestly, I think most people out there probably find it a little bit of a mystery.
So I've decided to explain one or two things here, just so that you're properly placed
to understand all of this and therefore enjoy it and benefit most from it.
Of course, I don't want to say too much, I'll repeat myself or anything.
So I've written this introduction in advance to try and keep me focused to be informative,
but also efficient, and then you can just get stuck into the conversation with my guest.
So Max works for the UK delegation at UNESCO, which has its headquarters in Paris, by
the way.
The word delegation comes up a few times in this episode and also the word delegate, and
that will be explained.
So UNESCO's headquarters is in Paris.
I actually did stand up there once, which was weird.
It's not normally what the UNESCO headquarters is for.
Certainly the main room, the big meeting room, which is where I did my stand up.
I was up on this stage.
That's not what that room is normally for.
It's normally for much more serious purposes, but I was invited there as part of a festival
in 2019 called Paris Talks.
It was a bit like a series of TED Talks, all of them serious about the future.
And then the organizer of the festival decided it could be interesting to have some stand-up
comedy.
So that's why I was invited to take part.
But it was a pretty weird context to be doing comedy.
Because first of all, all the other speakers had been talking about very serious things.
The room is huge as well.
There were people dotted around on different tables.
Some of them weren't really focused.
Some of them were like working on their computers or even on their phones and then I had to
go up in the middle of this fairly somber atmosphere and try to do comedy.
It was really difficult.
That's not what the room is for.
Normally it's for these big, very serious international meetings.
Anyway, whenever I chat to Max, if we have a drink together or something, I'm always really
curious about his work.
And I find it really fascinating.
Hopefully it will be fascinating for you too.
So we're going to talk about the work that UNESCO does and the way the organisation works,
but also about the different forms of communication that happen there.
And this, for me, as an English teacher, is perhaps the most interesting thing about
it.
So imagine nearly every nation in the world collaborating together at a government level
on very important projects.
This of course includes nation states which have different relations with each other.
Some friendly, some antagonistic.
Also you're dealing with often vastly different cultures with different communication styles
and values, but you've got to try to work together with these different groups towards
a common goal.
So this involves communication at a very high level, international diplomacy.
So what does it take to cross these barriers of culture, politics, economics at a state
level?
Diplomatic communication is a huge part of it.
And working in this context requires a variety of different types of communication skills.
There's persuasion, there's negotiation, there's showing respect, there's using pressure,
there's giving compliments and expressing gratitude.
And it can happen in writing and in spoken English too at various levels of formality.
So imagine these different communication contexts, right?
First of all, you might have huge meetings in that big meeting room where I did stand
up and didn't make anyone laugh.
Imagine huge meetings with representatives from countries all around the world sitting
at tables with little flags on them.
Right, to be honest, I don't know if they actually do have little flags at UNESCO, but you
know, it's that kind of thing.
Right, representatives from countries around the world sitting at tables and everyone attempting
to work together to agree on certain big decisions.
Sometimes they don't want to do the same thing, there are groups that are friendly, groups
that have their differences.
Also time is so important because it's all being simultaneously translated into a think
about six different languages and all of those translators are there, those interpreters
are all there sort of translating on the spot being paid.
So time is money as well.
Then there's the collaborative writing of very formal documents in these big meetings.
These are documents which UNESCO issues a bit like laws passed by a government, although
UNESCO doesn't actually make laws, collaborating on the writing of sentences, paragraphs where
every single little detail is important, a bit like the way a contract might be written.
Then you got smaller, less formal meetings in which different delegations, that delegation
basically means representatives.
Where different representatives or delegations attempt to build support for their proposals
with negotiations and persuasion but in a less formal way.
And then you might have individual one-on-one conversations or conversations in small groups
between the more formal meetings, so maybe in a lunch break or something, where representatives
might stand up and chat together, perhaps over coffee and a softer form of persuasion
or negotiation occurs and the building of relationships and alliances.
And as I mentioned before, there's the work of interpreters who sit in other rooms looking
through windows with headsets on, listening to what's going on.
Having to simultaneously translate what is being said in these important meetings from one
language to another and the quick decisions that they have to make about how exactly they
should word things without suddenly changing the tone of what is being said.
Interpreters are a huge part of this.
Maybe some of you listening are considering becoming an interpreter or maybe you already
are.
And in fact, maybe some of you listening to this are considering working in international
diplomacy to some extent.
Even if you don't want to become a diplomat, if you're going to go into international business
in some way, it's very similar, really.
And using this kind of high pressure situation as a model is quite a good way of actually
understanding the pragmatics of what it means to communicate across cultures.
I've got one listener I know for sure has been waiting for this episode for quite a long
time.
So how is language used in these different situations?
How does the language change?
Now we're talking about different levels of formality and the pragmatics of diplomacy
at this high level.
We're talking about word choices, structural choices and so on.
Also, what does UNESCO do exactly?
How does it actually work?
What does Max actually do on a daily basis?
So these are the things I was very interested in capturing in this conversation.
Before we start, just a few more details.
Here's some more information from Wikipedia about UNESCO.
So it was founded in 1945 and its founding mission, which was shaped by the events of World
War II, is to advance peace, sustainable development and human rights by facilitating
collaboration and dialogue among nations.
This is really important because it just gives you a sense of where UNESCO is coming
from, directly formed as a result of what happened during World War II, which is when
nations of the world really tried their best to completely destroy each other.
It was, you know, to state the obvious, it was a huge tragedy and a terrible, terrible
moment in the history of the human race.
One of the worst things that's ever happened and we never want something like that to happen
ever again.
So UNESCO is a project that emerged from that situation in order to ensure that the nations
of the world try to cooperate and work together diplomatically in order to sustain peace,
to maintain human rights and make sure that we all work together and we continue talking
together.
UNESCO pursues this objective through five major programme areas, education, natural sciences,
social and human sciences, culture and communication or information.
So what does it actually do, though?
We understand the concepts and the objectives, but how does it actually do that?
Now I find this quite hard to work out, but I've worked out this much.
So UNESCO sponsors projects, which basically means that they give money to pay for projects.
Using its budget that all Member States contribute to.
So these projects are supposed to improve literacy, provide technical training and education,
advance science, protect independent media and press freedom, preserve regional and cultural
history and promote cultural diversity.
Also it assists in the translation and dissemination of world literature.
Making sure the best works of literature are available to be read by everyone and not
just in their countries of origin.
It helps establish and secure world heritage sites of cultural and natural importance, as
I mentioned earlier.
It works to bridge the worldwide digital divide, which means attempting to reduce disparities
or differences between developed and developing countries in terms of what technologies are
available to people.
So essentially trying to bring about more of a balanced situation in terms of the access
to technology that people have.
Also, UNESCO works to create inclusive knowledge societies through information and communication.
You might be thinking, what is a knowledge society?
Well, by knowledge societies, UNESCO means societies in which people have the capabilities
not just to acquire information, but also to transform it into knowledge and understanding
which empowers them to enhance their livelihoods and contribute to the social and economic
development of their societies.
When we say societies, we mean civilizations in different countries.
So knowledge societies have access to knowledge, information, education, which they can then
use to essentially better their lives.
UNESCO has launched several initiatives and global movements in this area, such as education
for all.
But again, how does it actually do these things?
As far as I can tell, they create what Max calls standard setting documents.
There's probably a number of things that they do, but one of the things that we talk
about in this conversation is this creation of these standard setting documents, documents
which set certain standards.
These are not laws because they're not legally binding.
In fact, UNESCO doesn't make laws.
It's not that kind of organization, it's not like the European Union or something, which
does actually pass legislation, which member states are bound by.
They have to follow it in some regard.
UNESCO doesn't work like that.
So it doesn't produce laws, which are legally binding.
But these documents are similar to laws because they set out guidelines on what should or
should not be done.
The idea is that the member states are able to use these documents, these guidelines,
these standards to help them to create policies and laws which are applied then in their
countries.
Right?
So, like I just said, governments in the member states can use these standard setting documents
to help them form policies and laws in line with UNESCO's overall objectives.
So they're not binding legislation, but these UNESCO documents are still very formally written.
It's still very formal documents.
Max tells us about how this is done at the various stages, referring to different communication
contexts in the process.
Right?
Now, this all might sound a bit dry in my descriptions.
Right?
When I say dry, I mean kind of like not full of the most exciting stuff.
Right?
It's all a bit dry, potentially a bit flat.
But it's not really because, well, just let me take you back to that image of the large
meeting room at UNESCO.
I think if you just put yourself in that position, you'll start to, it may be it'll come to life,
it'll be a bit more vivid for you, a bit more real.
So, let me just take you back to that image of the large meeting room at UNESCO with all
these representatives or delegates from the different countries.
Imagine you're actually there.
Imagine having to open one of those big meetings.
You're going to have to say the first words to get the meeting started.
Imagine the mood in the room as you look out and you see these different faces representing
the different nations.
Imagine the tone you would have to use in your speech, the specific wording.
To gain their attention and their respect, to speak with the relevant level of importance,
to try to create a feeling of good will in the room, to make the different delegations
feel respected and then to attempt to unite these different nations with competing interests
and world views.
Quite a challenge.
Imagine having a specific project, something that you care about, like maybe an environmental
project or something, and trying to get it off the ground, arranging smaller meetings
to try to build alliances and get support, taking the time to chat one-on-one with people
between meetings, drafting emails with proposals and finally trying to edit formal documentation
in collaboration with other delegates in these huge writing sessions that can last days.
That's the world we're talking about here and specific things about how we have to
adapt our language in these situations.
Several other things, just three more things before we get started.
The first thing is that, as well as being a diplomat, Max is also a really good guitarist.
He's a great guitar player.
At the end of this conversation, we couldn't help but turn our attention to the guitars
on the wall in my podcast.
Max plays one of my guitars and we talk about guitars and Jimmy Hendrix and Nile Rogers
for a little while.
We do move from international diplomacy to guitars and music.
If you want to hear Max play, just stick around until the end of the conversation and you
can do that.
Secondly, in terms of the audio, there is a little bit of background noise.
There was a guy in the corridor outside my podcast room doing some work.
He was sanding a wall, you know.
Sanding a wall.
Sanding the paint off a wall.
So apologies, you'll hear the sounds of normal life bleeding into the recording slightly.
So if you hear that in the background, every now and then, it's not just like a percussionist
playing along in the background, now it's a guy sanding a wall in the corridor.
I think it's not too bad, but if you hear some noise and wonder what it is, it's a guy
sanding a wall outside.
Right, so without any further ado, let's get started.
The first thing you'll hear now is me saying that often the most difficult part of podcasting
is the very beginning of a recording.
It's difficult to know exactly how to start and what to say at the very start.
Max gives me a good bit of advice which he's learned from his work at UNESCO.
So let's now join the conversation at that point and I'll chat to you a little bit
at the end, but now let's get started.
The beginning of an episode is always the most difficult part.
Yeah, it's like a blank page.
Yeah, just like, oh god, what's the first thing you're going to say?
That's interesting, isn't it, because you actually can help you with that because I have
developed a technique now where I take the floor at UNESCO.
I try and thank a few people before I start talking about the thing I want to talk about.
That helps me because it's your projecting yourself a little bit and it buys you time.
And whilst you're thanking people, you're thinking about the structure in your mind of how
you want to develop it because you've only got two minutes and you can see the countdown
on the big screen in front of you.
You've got a microphone that sounds like where your voice sounds like a sort of a 1960s
record.
And so by the time that you've thanked everyone, your thoughts are a lot clearer, your heart
rate has stabilized, and you're able to actually make sense.
Well, let's try that.
Thank you everyone for tuning into this episode of Luke's English Podcast.
Okay, thank you very much for listening or watching if you're watching on YouTube.
And also I'll take this opportunity to say thank you to those people who have supported
the podcast recently in various ways, including sharing the show, telling your friends about
it, and also sending in donations as well, people actually send donations into the show
in order to support the podcast.
So if you are one of those people that you are keeping this podcast alive, and also I
must say thank you to the premium subscribers as well because they are the, I suppose the
major, the main stakeholders for this whole project.
Anyway, right, yeah, I've thanked people now.
Thank you as well for being here, Max, although normally that's the sort of thing you say at
the end of an interview.
But so listeners, viewers, I am talking to Max, my friend Max, who works at UNESCO, and
we're going to talk about UNESCO and also about the sort of communication, the intercultural
communication that is involved in the work that you do.
So hi Max.
Hi, thanks Luke, thanks for having me.
And yes, so I work for the permanent delegation of the United Kingdom at UNESCO, the UK permanent
delegation to UNESCO.
So on the one hand, you have member states who are sort of the shareholders, the contributors,
and then on the other hand, you have the secretariat who are UN civil servants and who are the
delivery arm, really, of the whole operation.
We are there to sort of steer guide, provide funding most importantly, and shape the policies
that the organisation adopts.
So you work for the permanent UK delegation at UNESCO, which is based here in Paris.
Yes.
There are permanent delegations from how many countries?
So currently we've got 194 countries.
Perlisgut.
Yeah.
Perlisgut, yeah.
Perlisgut, yeah.
I say currently because the US has just rejoined.
And we have rejoined.
We have rejoined.
Yeah, they left in about in the end of 2018 under Donald Trump and then now they've returned.
And we hope they're going to stay.
Yeah.
But the elections are looking a little bit, well, the forecast is not exactly positive, so
we'll see.
The presidential elections.
The US presidential elections.
Yes.
We don't want to think about it.
We want them to stay.
Yeah, that's a little bit down the road as well, though.
I'm sure it's a major concern at this stage.
Yeah.
Yeah, because basically if Donald Trump wins, then he'll take you out, take the US out of UNESCO
again.
Possibly, possibly.
But we don't want to think about that.
Okay, let's not talk about it then.
So I'm going to ask you the question that people always ask you when they meet you at parties
or other situations, which is what, so Max, what do you do?
So what do I do?
My job is I'm the deputy permanent delegate.
So I'm sort of the number two of the delegation.
It's almost like the deputy ambassador.
And I support my ambassador for all the political topics, the subjects, but I also make sure
the delegation runs smoothly.
So I have an operational role as well, make sure that everything gets done on time, that
we don't miss deadlines, because we've got a lot of deadlines, a lot of consultations where
we're asked by UNESCO, what does the UK think about this policy?
And if you don't, if you don't feedback, if you don't provide feedback, you miss a chance
of influencing that process.
And also, I mean, I've got two or three priorities in terms of the subjects that UNESCO does.
I focus on education, safety of journalists and media freedom, which is a really important
one when it comes to fighting this information and ensuring that journalists can continue
to do that important work.
And then I also, because I've been there for a while, I have an important role in helping
the UK understand the budgetary process of UNESCO, which is a difficult adventure, actually,
you have to navigate perilous seas sometimes to understand how to get a decision done
on time, when is the most efficient time and effective for to speak, to influence the
budgetary process?
Yeah.
Well, God, I've just got so many questions about this, just to try and understand the nature
of it.
So you said that you are a deputy to the UK delegate or delegation.
Delegation?
Delegation to words that I would like to be defined as delegate and delegation.
You need to have a small about those things.
So delegation can be two things.
You have a delegation of colleagues who are based in the UK who will come to UNESCO to
do a specific meeting and there will be experts in their fields, education, science, culture,
and they will come to UNESCO to deliver the UK view during a discussion or during a negotiation.
So this is a group of, this is a group of individuals.
A group of individuals coming to UNESCO from the UK.
That would be typically just the word delegation.
Right.
So a personal group of representatives.
And when they come to UNESCO, they come into the large meeting room today.
They would come to, well, it depends.
Sometimes some meetings are in a smaller room, but it's not to say that they're not equally
important.
And then, and then sometimes they come to the bigger rooms.
So I mean, the word delegation implies that you are representing the UK or you are speaking
on behalf of the UK.
So those people who come as delegates as a delegation, they are who, I mean, you said they
were sort of specialists or experts or...
They can be a number of things.
They can be, usually, they can be officials, so government officials.
We also have, UNESCO is an organization that has a big range of stakeholders.
They have a lot of experts from civil society or academia and GEOs who also contribute to
the conversation.
Because UNESCO's policy making is very long term.
So you usually have multiple rounds of conversations.
Civil society does a round of conversation.
Academics have their inputs.
And then you have the final decision taken by government officials.
So it's a sort of a step-by-step process.
And what's the end result?
Because I understand.
Yeah.
Right.
So I understand parliament, right?
I understand government, which is where MPs who have been voted for sit down, discuss
new laws, vote on them, and those laws go through a process and then they get passed.
New laws are made.
Right.
New laws are then applied in the UK in various different aspects of society, right?
So tax or policing or whatever the policy is.
UNESCO is this organization with representatives from 192 countries.
194.
194 countries at the moment.
And you meet these delegates, representatives from the different countries, meet to discuss
and sort of make decisions on a variety of different subjects like educational journalism
in culture.
Culture.
And answers.
And what's the end of the process then?
So the end of the process can be a standard setting document, for example.
Very much in the same spirit that a law would be created.
But it's just that we can't do binding laws in the same way because it's international
law.
So it doesn't have the same binding nature.
Standard setting document.
A document which sets standards.
Yeah, exactly.
But it's not binding law.
But it can be.
It depends.
You have multiple levels of sort of, you have a convention, which is the most legally binding
document where countries actually ratify those conventions and make those into their own
national laws.
I see.
But that would be exactly the same as the process that you described.
So UNESCO often feels like a parliament, actually.
When we sit in those negotiations, we take the floor and we try and change the text
that's on the screen.
Actually, we do live editing in the room.
Yeah, we've got.
It's quite extraordinary process, actually.
Yeah, we've got a screen.
And you're looking at two screens in front of you.
Not in English and one in French. And as we're adopting the decision paragraph by paragraph,
we're changing a comma.
I can take it in Thai day.
Wow.
Yeah, like should there be a comma or should there not be a comma here?
Yeah.
No, but seriously, a lot of the time we actually change the language for the better.
Because it's difficult because there's not much we can do.
There are a lot of countries who are in a majority of countries who want that particular
formulation.
So you have to pick your battles.
Yeah.
I think I wanted to come back to the definition of delegation because I think we missed
I didn't tell you about the permanent delegation, which is another category.
Anyway, that's the permanent delegation is effectively the ambassador and myself who
are based here in Paris permanently.
Right.
And that's the majority of the people that I speak to and they are the permanent representatives
of their countries here in Paris.
So but they are.
But we are supplemented by delegations who come from our capitals or various.
Your permanent delegations and visiting ones.
Right.
I see.
All right.
So you then specifically, you said you kind of meet the you're like you liais with the
visiting delegates and so on.
But then in this big meeting room or the smaller ones where for example, you might have these
texts up where you're literally amending the text as you go.
Are you actually speaking in that situation?
Yeah.
But if for example, countries are trying to change the text in a way that is inaccurate
or is trying to just sort of delete important references to various pieces of international
laws that we fundamentally believe in and that we think are an important achievement and
important gains over the years and if countries just don't want to recognize those and want
to sort of have a problem with those particular regulations or international laws or international
conventions or or UN General Assembly decisions or human rights declarations.
For example, we will our aim is to try and protect that language.
So yeah, we will intervene and try and protect references to various pieces of yeah.
Okay.
So I'm just trying to imagine this situation where you've got a text.
This is just one of the many things that you do of course, but you in this situation where
you are kind of trying to rewrite or write from scratch.
Yeah.
So sort of as you said, a standards declaration, right?
A declaration or something like that.
Do you really have 194, at least 194 people working on the same documents?
Not you could.
Yeah, sometimes during the general conference which happens every two years, every country
is allowed to speak, take the floor and amend the text.
But then every six months we have a more reduced forum called the executive board.
It doesn't always feel very executive because it's 58 countries.
But still within that space you only really have about 20 countries who really take an
active part in negotiations.
So I wouldn't say it's manageable.
Sometimes it gets out of control, but eventually we get there.
It's happened that you spend an entire day on a paragraph.
Yeah, I've seen that happen.
I can imagine that.
I can imagine so.
And then you have to sort of have breakout sessions where you break out of a lunch.
So UNESCO has a very interesting lunch hour.
They have two hours for lunch.
They break between one and three.
And that's to allow four countries to meet in the margins of the meeting and work out
whatever differences they have on a particular text.
And often actually, to coming back to your point earlier about communication, that actually
solves a lot of communication issues.
Because when you're in a big room sitting behind a microphone, there's a lot of apprehension
and fear of misunderstandings.
And people are genuinely under pressure because you're on the interpreter's time.
Clocks taking, we're about to take a decision that we won't be able to change because there's
no appeal process effectively at UNESCO.
Once the decision's been gavilled, that's it.
It goes on to the next stage and it's been gavilled.
Yeah, we've got a hammer.
Yeah, we've got a hammer.
Because they're really a guy with a hammer.
Who is that guy?
Well, there's a chair.
So usually the chair of every meeting is elected.
It's a woman or a man.
They usually representatives of a country, usually a permanent delegate or an ambassador
or a given country.
Yeah, the chair, the chair person.
Yeah.
Okay.
So in terms of communication then, I mean, we can talk frages about the actual processes
of what UNESCO does.
And I'm probably going to do some introduction to give an overview.
Yes.
We need to get into the subject of actually communicating and how that happens in various
ways.
So let me just ask you a couple of quick questions.
What are the various situations in which you have to communicate between the delegations
or delegates at UNESCO?
So from small to big, what's the smallest situation?
What's the biggest situation?
A smallest situation would be what we call bilateral meeting, where you have two countries
meeting bilateral.
And it's a conversation between two countries on a specific issue.
And often, well, it could be you could have two scenarios.
You could have a situation where you're speaking to a country that agrees with you and where
you need to secure their support so that when you then take that conversation to the big
meeting where everyone's going to be in the room and it's that's time when the decision
needs to be taken.
You want to make sure you know how many people are supporting you on a given point, but
at the same time, in order to facilitate the process of that end process, you also want
to talk to the countries where you know they will maybe have reservations about language
or some areas of that text will be sensitive for them.
So you want to make sure that you can speak to them and you can clarify where you're coming
from so that there's no misunderstanding and there's no lost opportunities effectively.
So that communication then needs to be, I mean, my mantra is to be totally transparent,
just not put myself in a situation where I would have to lie because that just doesn't
get you anywhere.
Yeah.
You just have to just be, just tell the truth to say it like it is.
And yeah.
Can you just, I mean, I'm kind of tangent going off on a little tangent, but hopefully
it'll illustrate these things we're saying.
So give us an example of the sort of decision that you're trying to take.
So I don't know if you can give us a real example or if you can make one up, but just so
that we get an idea of what it is, what decision it is that's being made.
Of course.
Yeah.
So for a number of years, I was speaking to experts from the UK on an oceanographic programme,
the National Oceanography Centre in Southampton.
And they come to Paris to meetings in UNESCO because UNESCO has a programme called the Intergovernmental
Oceanographic Commission.
And that particular programme looks at the science of the oceans and it's scientists
who come together in Paris and talk and make decisions about ocean science.
So it's a very important programme and it just wasn't getting enough funding from what
we call the regular budget.
Where does that money come from?
So the regular budget is the member states contributions.
And that is decided by the UNESCO Secretariat.
And for a number of years, that funding was not sufficient for that oceanographic programme
to just do its core work on developing data, developing the science and monitoring the
ocean, for example, monitoring the seabed, mapping the seafloor.
All these really important scientific activities that UNESCO was coordinating and facilitating
and funding.
And UNESCO has another way of getting funding which is to do what's called resource mobilisation.
So they go out and ask countries to give them money for specific activities.
And the balance had shifted more towards that sort of funding which meant that UNESCO
was no longer able to do its core work.
But it was actually going out and looking for funding to do very specific things.
And actually the auditor, the internal auditor of UNESCO said, it's a problem because UNESCO
is becoming more opportunistic and less strategic in a way.
So I just couldn't live with that.
I just thought we've got to do something about that.
We've got to do something about the ocean project.
Yeah.
It's not just anything.
It's not just a small project.
So I thought, right, we've got evidence.
We've got an internal audit here.
We've got experts in the UK who are really top experts in that field.
And I put together a team.
We thought about how we were going to present the issue.
And the issue eventually was, right, we just need to increase the proportion of the
budget from the regular budget to this oceanographic program.
We just need to give this program more money to do the regular things that it's supposed
to be doing.
So we're not going to say, we're going to increase the budget to do specific things.
We're just going to say it needs more money.
And we're going to trust the Secretary of UNESCO to allocate that money properly.
But as Member States, we're going to take a decision to say we are raising the budget level
by 1%.
But in real terms, it's actually millions.
So it was a difficult project.
So I then had to draft the actual paper.
So I drafted the resolution and an explanatory note as we call it to explain why we wanted
to do this.
So there was three or four pages.
I then showed the draft to my colleagues in Canada and then other countries had a look
at it as well.
And we organized what we called informal negotiations where I presented the text and I presented
the rationale for presenting that paper.
Informal negotiations, right?
Informal.
And then we were presenting the initial presentation of the paper.
So in terms of big to small, as I said before, this is fairly small.
This is like one to one or is this email?
No, this was actually...
So the emailing part was in the beginning with various colleagues like Canada and others
to help me with the drafting.
But I did the initial draft and then they sort of improved it and cut it down, moved
bits around.
My ambassador at the time as well had a look at it because she was great at drafting.
And then you almost...
It's almost like you have to get it out there.
So you have to publish it.
So then that first phase before publishing it effectively was or presenting it to member
states was to select a group of countries whom I knew were very focused on this oceanographic
program.
I knew they cared deeply about this.
This is where the diplomacy comes in.
This is where the diplomacy comes in.
This is where you sort of moving around and like picking the people that you choose to
work with you in order to get a core number of people that can then be more influential
or something.
So the way it's...
So picking sounds a bit...
So this is the thing we must always avoid doing is because you actually...
That can backfire, actually.
So what I did was I emailed a lot of colleagues, a very broad range of countries.
And then it's only the ones who were really interested who responded and who came to that
meeting.
And it was a meeting that we chaired, that I chaired with my ambassador.
And then we presented the issue and then there were a lot of questions.
So we were answering that question.
It was a bit like a...
It was a bit like a parliamentary question time.
So it was...
Oh yeah, they were quizzing me.
They were grilling me.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So how many countries were there present at this meeting then?
Well, so we did two sessions in that one morning.
And the countries were really keen when the first came to the first session, as you
imagine.
Yeah.
I guess 40 or 50?
40 or 50 countries.
So it's 40 or 50 individual delegates grilling you on your proposal.
Yeah.
And we'd brought food.
So they're still there.
We were trying to soften the...
You know, as much as possible the negotiations.
So we brought medlands.
I give you a cake.
You agree with me.
This is the way it works.
No, but it was a very serious meeting, but there was lots of food so people could stay
on top of their brief.
Yeah.
No, but it was a really good process because it meant that you could iron out all of the
issues.
You could get people to voice their concerns, air their frustrations.
And again, I keep coming back to this.
I think it's very risky being a delegate of a UN organisation because you're responsible
for a very important decision.
Actually, the people who were in that room were ultimately going to take a decision about
millions of dollars being allocated to a programme and they had to then sell that back to their
capital.
So they wanted to make sure they'd understood everything so that it could brief their
colleagues back in their capital.
So it's pretty...
Yeah, I guess it's pretty tense.
So I was going to give lots of questions about how...
So I had to...
Yeah, I had to...
So my role was then to clarify and answer all those questions.
Because I had them in my head and I had the figures in my head because I'd be...
This was a process that a document that took a year and the making before we...
So it was a very slow, gradual process and then towards the end you have a sprint because
we had, like from January till March, to get everything down, to get the paper finalised
because the session was going to be in May.
So we had to submit the paper month before because UNESCO has to do the translation into
six languages.
Okay.
And then...
So we did that.
So then...
After those...
So we did two informal sessions of negotiations and then a lot of back and forth by email.
And all the time the result of those negotiations or meetings is to kind of make changes to your
documents.
Do you call it a proposal?
Yeah.
So it's a decision.
So you have two parts.
You have a decision and then you have an explanatory note.
We know.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's the decision.
The decision should say, what does it look like?
A contract.
Does it look like a contract?
It's a number of paragraphs.
I can't remember how many paragraphs we had but it was a page and a half and then you
have the paragraphs are numbered and you're...
The typical opening would be you recall a number of previous decisions so that you're...
It's effectively like in a court of law.
Yeah.
It's a judgment in a way.
Like you have to recall and make sure that your evidence base is correct and accurate
and sound in a way.
So you have the legal foundations in a way.
So like a court's decision or a judge's decision would refer to previous cases.
Exactly.
I don't know exactly the wording they would use but with reference to blah, blah, blah,
versus blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Or some other previous case notes.
Oh, absolutely.
And then...
It's funny because my previous ambassador, we always used to love how difficult to digest
those letters and UNESCO documents are because it always begins with in reference to EXB
16 slash Rev, Addendum X and it...
You're already dropping off and you're really lost at the beginning of that.
It's difficult to read that stuff.
It's really difficult.
Especially it's like a Tuesday morning you didn't sleep very well the night before you
haven't had coffee yet and just like, okay, with reference to EX3, oh god.
Oh yeah, it's hard work.
So you're essentially sending this stuff out to people, asking people to read it.
Yeah.
Yeah, and then the diplomacy, yeah, I mean all sorts of communication skills involved
throughout this process.
Yeah.
Oh, who the f*** is supposed to be in the parkman drive job this morning?
Where did they put this week's schedule?
Oh, that's right.
I spilled coffee on it.
Are you a home service professional who still runs your business with a pen, paper and
spreadsheets?
Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise
prices due to inflation.
They said yes.
And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those owners to your contracts, they
said, what the f*** are you talking about?
You insane Hollywood f***ing.
So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month.
Give it a try at MintMobile.com slash switch.
$45 upfront for three months plus taxis and fees, promoting for new customers for limited
time, unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month, so full terms at MintMobile.com.
So let's, okay, I hope everyone listening and watching is following all of this stuff
because it is complicated.
It's incredibly complicated, I have to say.
So where are we?
Yeah.
Let's just make sure everyone knows where we are.
So you're giving this example of this oceanographic project, this decision that you'd like to be
taken that you would like to be able to apply.
Yeah.
And it's a very concrete thing.
It was increasing the funding for that program.
Okay.
And that program, more funding so it could do its core science.
Okay.
And ultimately you want all 194 member states.
Member states.
Yeah, to give their agreements to this decision.
Yes.
And then it gets actually, it gets applied, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So at this stage, so you've written the thing, it took you a year to write it.
Yeah.
Well, it took me a year to think about it and then it took me a day to write it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because it's a bit like Jack Kerrowack, you know, writing his book in one night because
it's just so clear in his mind.
Yeah.
He lived it for a year or two and then just wrote it all down and all night.
Yeah, it's like it's a volcano just erupting.
Right.
I see.
I see.
Okay.
So you've written it, you've changed it with the help of a few key sort of, I don't
want to say allies.
That's not the right word.
Yeah.
Key contributors.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then you've opened it out to a slightly larger group in these two meetings where they're
grilling you like, what about this, what about this, what about this, what are those?
Before we agree, we want to ask you all these questions.
Absolutely.
And that must be hard work for you.
Yeah.
It was hard work.
It was sort of, you know what, I thought it was great.
Actually, I felt good in that process because I could see that countries cared deeply about
the ocean and they, you had some very passionate individuals who thought of their jobs, not
just as a sort of a posting that they were going to do for four years, but they were actually
taking that subject really seriously.
They thought, you know, it's the ocean.
And the ocean science is going to play an important part in the next, you know, COP27, COP28,
you know, all those important meetings where decisions are going to be taken about, you
know, the future of the planet.
And that UNESCO program does very tangible things.
So I was just happy that we could, we picked something that was where we could bring a lot
of different countries where we would not necessarily always agree on everything, but on that
one thing we agreed and there was, that agreement was really strong.
Okay.
Yeah.
So then what was the next after that?
So that was like, you said about 50 countries, something in the region of what was the next
stage?
So then we had, let me move your microphone a little closer to you if I can.
Yeah, of course.
So then we had to, we had to seal the deal, you know, you had to get countries to sign.
And so, so, so we call that co-sponsorship.
So we had to make sure that countries could co-sponsor the document as it was.
So we'd done all the editing.
There was a final draft and we said, right, can you put your name to this?
Because we didn't, and we, the last thing you want to do when you propose a resolution
or a decision is to be the only country proposing it because it looks odd and it, it, it,
the countries get suspicious about that. So you wanted to have as many countries as possible
proposing it to the rest of it.
Yeah.
So it's a sort of jointly proposing it to the rest of the organization, you know.
Yeah.
Okay.
So in the end, we had about 53 countries who co-sponsored it out of 194, which is not bad.
And, and then the reason you want to do that is to avoid another lengthy debate in the
meeting because it's very expensive because you've got interpreters.
So we always say avoid having a negotiation on the interpreter's time.
And what happened then was that there was a decision that was another document, another
item that was dragging and the chair, I think, was, was, was being a bit, was, was frustrated
about that because I think the authors of that previous document hadn't really prepared
there at the room.
So we, we, we, we was super prepared and everyone was clear about what the issue was.
So we then came in and said to the chair, let's, let's just adopt it without debate.
And the chair loved that.
He thought, great, we just, travel that one and it's done.
Yeah.
So that, so there was no, no discussion. Everyone knew what this item was about because we've
been talking about it for so long. And we just did a short intervention at the end to
say, thank you.
It's a really important item.
And just, and they, and everyone agreed and it was done.
Yeah.
Oh, well done by a consensus.
Fantastic.
Congratulations.
So you didn't have to do a painful, torturous negotiation with 100 and exactly with 194
or any edits.
As you said, with the document on the screen.
Wow.
Great.
That must have been very satisfying.
It was, it was actually because it meant that we could, you know, respect the sacrosan,
you know, principle in a way that decisions are adopted by consensus.
It's very important that you know, you just go as one of those organizations that because
the mandate is so universal, you've got, you know, education, science, culture, culture.
You, it's very difficult to vote on decisions and resolutions on culture.
I mean, it's just, it doesn't really make much sense.
So you want those decisions to be adopted as much as possible by consensus.
You mean without, when you say by consensus, you mean without having to like force people
into doing it or trying to, because it's weighed them really hard.
You just want them to read it and everyone to, in the room to just be like, yes, we all
agree.
Well, that's right.
And, and the way that you get to that point is that you are inclusive as much as possible
and you take comments on board as much as possible, provided their constructive comments.
And, and that's how you build the consensus, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
Then, so we kind of went from small to big there and through the process where you started
on your own or maybe with your, um, and, yeah, and then with a group of, a group of experts
the, from Southampton.
Yeah.
And then you open it out to a few key, um, other participants who help you to, to draft
it.
Yeah.
And then you get the smaller, well, I say smaller, but the, the meetings where they quiz
you or grilled you.
Yeah.
And then you prepared it so well that when you presented it to the, uh, what's the next,
what's the word I'm looking for presented it to the, the executive board.
Executive board.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that, that, that's where they grilled you, is it?
No, no, no, no, no, no, um, that's where we adopted it.
Okay.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
So, um, that's where we went.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's when, that's when I put the paper presented the paper the first time and was grilled.
In formal negotiations.
That's the grilling session.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
So, what are the, um, when is it difficult then what are the challenges when you've got 194
delegates from, uh, from 194 countries, at least 194 delegates.
Um, you've got so many different communication styles, you've got different languages, people coming from different culture, and contexts.
Um, does it, I mean, you know, does it go wrong sometimes?
It does.
Um, it's, it's, it's such a challenge.
It's a really good question.
Thank you for asking that question.
It's difficult.
That's a difficult, that means it's a difficult question, everyone.
Um, I'm, I'm, my technique is to thank, um, the entire room before I, I start my intervention so that I can get my thoughts in the right order.
So why are you asking a question like that?
I don't, you know, because you can't, uh, it's not meant to be a challenging question.
I do genuinely want to explore the subject of intercultural communication, you know.
So coming from the position of being an English language teacher, you know, this is a subject that comes up a lot, you know.
Like a lot of my students who I've taught over the years have, you know, worked in various different capacities, in different, all sorts of different industries and things.
Uh, and they, you know, dealing with people from other countries, probably in English.
Yeah.
Um, always involves that cultural element, where fair enough you're trying to speak the same language, but you're not, there's a different mindset, because you come into different places, um, and different cultures.
So I'm always interested in any sort of insights that people have about that process.
And I mean, you were in a great position because this is the, a very substance of what you do, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, communication is everything, you know, diplomacy is about convincing.
You have to convince the colleagues around the table who are also decision makers.
You have to convince them that this is the right decision to take and, and that, that your proposal is sound and that your intervention is, is constructive.
Um, but, you know, it comes down to the relationship that you build.
You know, it's, it's almost, I remember one of my previous bosses saying to me, you know, you people do business with people.
It's always down to the individual relationship. So your communication style will, so typically your communication style will have to be adaptive.
You'll have to adapt to the person that you're talking to, and they will be coming in to this conversation from a very different cultural perspective.
They will find that maybe, you, maybe they'll, you'll find that some of the language that you're proposing, they find it offensive.
Really?
We think it's, wow, it's just, just being efficient, we're being, you know, against the point, we're, we're trying to be concise.
And actually a few words, like ensuring, like, we want to ensure that, that, that UNESCO does this and that, they think,
this is, this is too strong language, you know, you know, how can you ensure that UNESCO does these things?
Because to ensure something is to make something sure to make it certain.
And that sounds a bit like forcing someone to do something.
Yeah.
It's too direct.
Or, or even sometimes, you know, you have these very operative words, requests, the directed general to do XYZ.
Yeah. And countries I've found informally, they've come to speak to me and tap on my shoulder in the meeting and say, you can't, you can't say that, Max, you know, you're being too forceful here.
Why don't you say invites the director general or, you know, this is a good, recommends that the director general takes this position.
This is really interesting because ultimately what you're trying to do is, is ask someone to do something or tell someone to do something.
Yeah. Yeah. So if we take this, a simple case study, which is like, make me a cup of tea.
Yes. Right. Yeah. So that's it, that request. So the idea is that I want a cup of tea and I want you to make it, for example.
Yeah.
So how do I actually achieve that? Right.
So for the first level is simply, Max, make me a cup of tea.
Yes.
Or make me a cup of tea now or make me a cup of tea in 10 minutes.
You know, right? There's that. And then we can go through all the different possible ways of phrasing this request.
I actually want to do it. How would you do that?
So you would say you, you, you would recall a previous decision where my predecessor or or or you would have made you a cup of tea before or you would recall a law that says that every guest on Luke's podcast should bring a cup of tea in the room,
unless or or otherwise, they will be arrested.
So that would be a level times.
Max, remember, remember, this sounds a bit informal, though, the way I'm saying it, but I would say maybe in a more informal setting, I say, Max, but this is, you wouldn't, these requests are not made informally, they're made in form of text.
They're very formally. So you would, like I said, you would start recording, you would start recalling various decisions in writing.
And you would, you would, you would also have, you would recognize the importance of the issue, you, you would say, recognizing the importance of tea in the development of in the in the, in the facilitating of the connection between synapses, for example, you would, you would then recognize the convivial nature of sharing a cup of tea and you would acknowledge
the art of tea making. And then you would get into the real beef of the issue, you would say, on the basis of these principles, you invite Max to, to consider switching the kettle on with a view to brewing a lovely cup of tea.
For his gentle host, that is a very indirect way of doing a very, very, it's very, very respectful. It's very gentle, very graceful. The language is always quite graceful. Well, not always, but we try, I mean, that we try the aim is to make the language as graceful as possible.
And so when you do it with different cultures, there's different expectations or standards of gracefulness or indirectness in language. So, certain cultures, they don't, like being direct. For example, if I just said to you, Max, remember last time you came here, you made me a cup of tea.
Well, I request another one. That's much too strong and that's rude. Absolutely. Yeah, you'd have to put a lot more fluffiness around that. But that's the debate. That's exactly the nature of the debate. You have countries who kind of say, oh, come on, let's get to the point here, we're beating around the bush.
And then you have countries who just really want the language to be gentle and who don't want to force the secretariat or don't want, who can't culturally sort of bring themselves to requesting the secretariat as if to say, we own you, you know, you belong to us, you do what we say because we pay you, you know, they don't want to say that they want to sort of be approaching it in terms of collaboration between.
Like, against coming to my point where you have two sides, you have the member states who are the shareholders and then you have the secretariat staff who are delivering. So that relationship is a very collaborative one.
And we, they're quite extraordinary people, the colleagues in the secretariat, they're very eminent experts in their fields. And then so it's so in a way we're lucky to have them. Yeah.
So we want to make sure that they we can enable them to blossom bloom. Yeah, so you have to, you have to treat them with care, do you care and attention? Oh, maybe a cup of tea. No, that's right because because because they are, you know, a lot more experts and sort of, you know, they're a lot more interesting and probably important in their fields. And we are in office.
So who are we to tell them what to do, but at the same time, we are, it's, it's where we are actually responsible for the outputs of that organization. So we had to, it's a very subtle balance. Yeah.
So we're fascinating the pragmatics of the way language works and the decisions we have to take with it and the way that language changes depending on the relationship that you have or the way that you perceive the relationship. If someone uses language with you in a certain way, it's very disrespectful because it sort of shows that they perceive you or their relationship with you in a certain way.
It's not just a question of using certain there is no such thing as just simply objectively rude language. Well, sometimes there is swear words, but it's often more about the implication of the wording and how that implies the relationship or the way you view the other person.
Completely. Yeah, it's the recently. I mean, we were negotiating something. I'm not going to get into the detail, but the point.
I mean, I think I'm trying to make is coming back to your point about cultural interpretations and we, I was speaking to, it was a group of us from, I guess the northern hemisphere speaking to a country who was from the southern hemisphere.
And the communication style is very different north and south. Typically, I would say that the northern countries are much more blunt and direct and I don't think actually that they, you know, that they're being rude.
But that shifts sometimes that that that that I've seen that shift as well. And in that particular case, it's an exception to that to my assumption anyway, we were speaking to a group of countries from the north.
We're speaking far too diplomatically to a country from the south. And that individual just didn't understand why we were being, what are reservations, where, what are preoccupation, what were.
And at one point I came in and said, look, this is the issue. And colleagues were uncomfortable. And one colleague came to me after that and said, Max, you know, you were being undiplomatic there. It's not, it's not right. You can't say things like that.
Because you saw these two groups, they were sort of sort of, what's the word for it? Getting the, they were at cross purposes or getting the wrong end of the stick and not quite communicating clearly. And you just came in and said, look, let me just clarify his issue.
And, and that person then responded said, ah, okay, I understand it's not just about this other issue. It's actually about this specific issue. And they, they understood.
They understood what are reservations were. And we were being, we were, you know, other countries in the night, we were beating around the bush, we were not being clear enough.
And so you have these challenges, sometimes where you just have to sort of put the diplomacy and the fancy language on the side and just be super clear.
Because you need to move on, you need to make progress. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's the challenge and the communication. But the, I guess, I guess coming back to, you know, the issue of language.
You have six official languages in the UN. Yeah. And in UNESCO it's the same. It's the standard UN format where you have English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, and Arabic.
Or Mandarin, sorry. Yeah. But we've actually on the screen. It's labeled Chinese actually. So maybe it's an old way of calling it.
So you have those, those six languages and in the UNESCO rooms, you're able to sort of just sort of flick a button where you flick between those languages and you listen to the language that you want.
So there's six simultaneous interpretation going on. There's six people listening in and speaking.
It's simultaneously interpreting what's being said. Absolutely. Wow. Incredible. And you've got a little thing, you've got headphones and you can switch between the different channels. You can.
Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And so the challenge is that you want to make sure that the nuance of what's being said by the speaker in the room that usually the official representative of his government.
You want to make sure that the person who's saying that intervention in Arabic, that the person who's listening to it in Russian actually gets that nuance. And I've had colleagues who've come to me who from some of the.
I guess I think from Lithuania who understood the Russian intervention because the person was speaking in Russian and said.
What you were getting in your headphones in English was very gentle.
Yeah, really. Or other or other countries, maybe Arab, Arab, represent the Arab countries. Arab representatives speaking in Arabic.
What they were saying was actually a lot more harsh than what we were getting in English. So even there's that sort of diplomacy from the interpreters.
Yeah. I mean, I have the got most respect for interpreters because what they do is absolutely incredible. And also it's very revealing about the nature of different languages that some I think.
I'm not an expert linguist or anything, but I think that some languages just by their nature are more direct than others.
I mean, even if just like grammar, sentence structure, some in some languages like for example, Japanese, they put verb later in the sentence.
And I think in German this happens to, well, I'm not entirely sure. But listeners can.
The German, that's great. Do you speak German?
Well, a little bit. I mean, I studied German. It's cool. I never lived in Germany. So you can argue. I never really practiced it.
But anyway, these structural things make a huge difference where the impact gets changed. And also obviously some languages have words which are harsh and direct.
And which don't necessarily have equivalence in other languages. So it's, yeah, it must be that by feeding it through the interpreter.
That's right. The message does change in its tone. Sometimes. Sometimes.
It can. Yeah. Always for the better. I mean, that's where I really admire the interpreters. I mean, I understand that what they're, you know, what we're getting in our headphones is a very gentle.
Coming back to my point earlier is a very gentle version of what was actually said, nuanced version. But, but you have the risk also of Russian colleagues saying actually no.
I mean, everyone, I said this and everyone else got the wrong version. The interpreters interpreted it in the wrong way.
And so some of the nuance gets lost. Sometimes it's really risky because you have then an entire room who then sort of looks a bit lost and, and, and whereas the original speaker actually intended to say something quite different.
So do you ever get the interpreter in and say, oh, right, coming here. What did you do? You know, what are you not not not to punish them, but just to kind of involve them in the conversation. Is that ever happened?
Quite rarely. Sometimes the chair will pause the meeting and, and we'll ask the speaker to repeat their statement and the interpretation will have another go at it. Yeah.
Okay. I've seen that happen. Yeah. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because it's, it's, again, communication is everything. Communication is with an aim of convincing. You need to convince colleagues that this is the right thing to do.
And, and let you say those decisions are effectively aiming to, to cause an action in a way you want to trigger an action. So you want the organization to do something that you're telling them to do.
So you want to tell colleagues something you want to, yeah, you want to tell them what to do.
So that's, that's that you got to get that tone right. You got to get the language right.
The, I guess the other challenge is about time as well. It's always about, because UNESCO's agenda is, is, is very busy.
You have a lot of subjects being discussed at UNESCO. You have education. You have natural sciences, social and human sciences, culture. And within the culture portfolio, there's lots of different aspects of cultures.
You have, you have restitution of cultural property. You have freedom of artistic expression. You have protection of cultural heritage. Obviously that's the big flagship.
Protection of cultural heritage in armed conflict. And those are all being discussed at UNESCO. And then you have, then freedom of expression.
Media freedom, safety of journalists. So, so that in a, in a sort of two week, a week and a half, two week meeting of the executive board, you've got to go through.
Pretty all, all of that. And so, so that, that's where communication is coming back to communication needs to be efficient and clear.
Because if you take an afternoon for, another, for one item that was supposed to just take an hour or two hours max, you're shifting the entire agenda.
And you're then compressing the agenda on things where actually there, there needs to be a debate. So it's, it's always a risk.
Yeah, good will is so important, isn't it, in this situation, like a, a sense of, yeah. How do we define good will? It's just that sense of like deciding to enter into these situations with a positive and good faith approach.
Yeah, absolutely. I thought that's really an interesting point. I think you hit the nail on the head there. Because one of the subtleties, I suppose, of negotiating, is you could very well take the position where you are.
Well, you're faking misunderstanding. You're saying, well, well, you don't agree with that particular intervention, but you don't want to say to the, to the entire room, we don't agree with that.
Because that's just, that's, you know, you're not going to, that's not going to get, you know, support.
So you could just buy yourself time and say, I don't really understand what you're saying, what this country is proposing. Can they explain it?
Yeah, and then they buy them, and then, yeah, that's buying time. And it's effectively sometimes your, some country's strategy is to just push people to exhaustion in a way.
Really? What, by pretending not to understand or going around the houses, as we would say.
Yeah. And that comes back to your, your comment about good faith and, and, you know, good will. Yeah.
You get that sort of thing where people sort of like attempt, basically force everyone to get frustrated as a sort of tactic.
Do you have, have you ever noticed any actual sort of what's the word for it in salting or, or, or comments that are intended to insult or cause pain?
No. Sadly, yes. And I've seen comments, and I've seen countries respond to those by saying, you know, I find these comments extremely offensive. And, and, and yes, and so, so you have those situations where someone just sort of loses their temper in a way.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
