So when did work become a bit of a four-letter word for so many people?
As you probably know, I have spent years now deep diving into the world of work, what makes it feel terrible and also what makes it feel amazing.
And I always love discovering new human beings, new people and new points of view that add to my understanding.
Even cooler when those people become fast friends and truly open my eyes to new ways of being, especially in the world of work.
That is exactly what happened when I met Brie Groff.
Author of Today Was Fun, a book about work seriously.
After years of working as an innovator, strategist and consultant with some of the biggest, most innovative companies in the world, she has seen and learned so much about what goes right and wrong and how to do way more of the former and less of the latter when it comes to work.
And Brie has distilled all this wisdom into this deceptively simple, playful yet powerful seven rule framework, because I mean, come on, don't we all love things that come in sevens?
That opens the door for brilliant work while also allowing us to have genuine fun and feeling fully alive.
And we all need more of that these days.
So if you have ever wished your work could be more than just a grind, that it could genuinely light you up and allow you to let your authentic spirit shine through, this conversation will feel like a revelation.
So excited to share it with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
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You've been immersed in the world of work, in the world of understanding.
How do we actually create work that is not just functional, that doesn't just check the boxes and do the jobs, but also really allows us to show up as our best selves, do our best work, contribute in a really powerful and meaningful way and bring joy into the experience of doing it?
And it sounds like a lot of those seeds were planted by really witnessing the way that your mom and dad showed up for work.
Yeah.
You know, I grew up in a family of educators.
My dad was a elementary school principal.
My mom was a kindergarten teacher.
And you know any child you're growing up, you just, whatever is around you, you think well, that's normal.
And so my mom would come home and she'd say, I have the best days.
And I'd go into school with her sometimes.
And I'm like, she really does have the best days.
You know, my dad had lots of stress with like the Board of Education and things like that.
But To visit him, he would laugh with his colleagues.
They would joke around.
He'd always go on these fishing trips with his building engineer.
And so I just grew up thinking that my whole career, my life of work ahead of me, was going to be joyful.
And didn't everyone have this much fun at work?
And...
Actually, my first job was in education.
I started my career as a seventh grade math teacher and then went on to teach high school math and physics and had so much fun.
It was really when I entered the world of consulting corporate America that I was like what is happening?
Why is nobody going to the bathroom when they have to go to the bathroom?
This seems really wrong.
And And yeah, it was just a really stark difference from what I – I mean not to say that teaching is not hard.
It's an incredibly, incredibly difficult career.
But it felt just really different from what I knew work could be, which is fun.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting that you sort of like saw the work that your parents are doing and then the work that you were doing, as you know, like middle school and high school teacher as okay yes, there's a certain amount of administration, a certain amount of politics that we all know is a part of that profession.
But there was so much more, it sounds like, of what you know, the part of it that brought you joy and the part of it that brought your parents joy that you said okay.
So this is sort of like the dominant feature of work and this is what it could be.
And then you get into the you know quote, adult world of consulting and corporate work and business.
And it's like, oh, wait a minute, this is completely reversed.
What were some of the things that you were seeing?
Like what were you witnessing on a fairly regular basis in that world where your eyebrows were just constantly raising and saying this doesn't have to be this way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think even the notion of professionalism, like how I had to show up differently in corporate spaces, felt really weird to me.
So like when I'm teaching, I'm teaching seventh grade math like the sillier I am, the better, because they're like oh, Ms.
Berman, you're so you know like, the more I brought my sense of joy and expression into to the classroom, the better.
The more that I showed my love of the subject matter, the better.
The more I connected with the students on a human level, the better.
But then, moving into the corporate world, it doesn't take long to be in a boardroom and be like oh, I have to be a very different version of myself right now.
So for one, I need to dress the part.
I need to really thoughtfully time when I'm going to say something in a meeting and it better sound good.
And so...
What do you grasp for?
You grasp for the jargon or the thing that you heard someone else say, that other people nodded to, and you're just really trying to fit in.
It did feel like, especially being a young woman like oh, I have to puff my chest out a little bit more and speak with a fuller voice.
It was just very starkly not what I had come to know as... this is how I succeed.
I succeed by being the fullest, most human, vibrant version of myself, versus I succeed by being a very palatable presentable, also trustworthy and smart person version of myself.
But all of the tricks to being seen that way were all very sort of performatively professional right.
Like dress the part, speak the part, make your work look like everyone else's work.
And it felt like this is not fun.
And I use the word fun there sort of jokingly, but I mean it broadly, in that I would wake up some days and think there's more of me to give and I'm not giving it because it doesn't feel safe.
And I think that's a problem.
I mean, that's going to resonate so much with so many people.
I have like you, like so many people, like a wide number of past lives in my professional life.
And I went from owning a yoga studio in Hell's Kitchen, New York, and showing up like my work outfit was barefoot, you know, like nasty old t-shirt, ripped up jeans and just like walking around barefoot and saying all sorts of silly things all day long and just hugging people.
That was my world for seven years.
And I went from there, but the world that I came out of was big corporate law in New York.
You need shoes for that one.
You do, apparently.
Yeah, they frown upon it.
Although I actually started my career at the SEC.
And there were, I think, eight of us who started there.
And there was one, like one of our crew, who we would walk by his office.
And he was a really tall guy.
And he would kind of lean back in his chair with his arms over his head and his feet like kicked out.
And so you could see his feet sort of extending through the bottom of the desk.
And he'd be barefoot, like in the New York office of the SEC on a regular basis.
And we're like, dude, what are you doing?
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
I was hoping that's where that story was going.
So when you sort of experience this contrast, it's really jarring.
I'm curious, actually, what led you to want to go from teaching into the corporate world?
You know, my super honest answer is I had this most amazing mentor.
Her name was Shannon.
She put me in these positions of experimentation.
I was leading this innovation department for the school.
I was in instructional coaching and teaching.
And then, frankly, she left.
And the person who came, I didn't click with as much.
So I was like, I think I'm leaving too.
Which is, as they say, you join companies, you leave managers.
And at the time, I could have gone to another school or state in education.
But at that point, I...
I was sort of transitioning my career anyway.
As I mentioned, I was leading this innovation department and we were creating these really cool classes for kids, like small business classes in high school and innovation maker.
So I was already sort of in the headspace of how do you change innovation industries or organizations.
I was also doing my master's in organizational learning and change.
So I was just much more in the headspace of like how do you do change and why is there resistance and why does it work and why does it not work?
And then I think I just thought like, let me see what other people know about this.
Like, let me go poke around in other industries.
And off I went.
Yeah.
So once you get into that world, then you start to realize oh, this is maybe not what I thought it was.
And the way that I, quote, have to show up is just so not me.
It's so stifling, which again so many people have experienced and felt, especially in a big organization.
It's big.
It's old.
The culture is established.
It's kind of baked in.
It's like this is the way it's going to be.
Right.
Or in industries that are very just like the entire industry just kind of feels very weighted down formal.
So when do you start to think to yourself, it actually doesn't have to be this way.
I'm towing the line right now.
I'm showing up the way that I think I, quote, have to show up.
But it really doesn't have to be this way.
And I feel like I'm not showing up as my best self.
And I pretty much guarantee a lot of people are feeling the same way.
Yeah.
So actually, from that first consultancy, I moved to another called Nobel Collective, where...
I came on actually sort of a part-time freelancing basis after I just had my daughter.
But then after a few years, took over the CEO ship from the founder.
And so that was like a crash course in how do you run this small consultancy in a way, that is, of course.
It was my job to make sure that we are a healthy, thriving business, that there's money coming out, we're paying our bills, all those things.
But I realized there was so much about how we typically do work that did not at all contribute to our impact, our success, our bottom line.
So as I've often said, my brain works just as well if my hair is wet or dry.
If I'm showing up to a meeting because I exercised this morning, then I went to shower.
It's like I'm just as smart.
It doesn't need to be dry.
It's fine.
You know, we were the small consultancy making up rules for ourselves.
We're also consulting on new ways of working and change for our clients.
And so I just had this amazing petri dish of like.
Well, what happens if we Or another thing I'd like to do a lot is spend the first say five, seven minutes of a meeting just doing a check-in?
How is everybody?
Scale of one to five.
What's going on in your life?
That did not crush our bottom line, but the amount of humanity that we felt just being able to say.
Like I said to you before we started recording, I'm a little nervous.
My cat is going to meow a lot during this.
It felt good to be able to share that, get that off my chest.
So there were all these small practices of here.
I am in wet hair talking about my cat and our business is still doing well.
It just felt like oh, there's so much more that we can do to be ourselves at work that We just left on the table.
And what would it look like if I helped other people discover that too?
Yeah, so agree with that.
And it's like it's intuitive that the more you let people actually be themselves and show up in the way that is most supportive and most authentic to them that, like it lowers the the friction and the weight that they're carrying to try and show up in a particular way and just freeze up all this bandwidth to actually be able to do the thing that you want them to do best.
But we don't do that.
We still, you know, we still just say like no, you have to check, like xyz and 5 000 other boxes and then And be somebody who you're often not.
And then go do the work in the shape and form of the way that we expect you to do it.
And also, by the way, be incredible.
Be the best in the world at what you're doing.
It's like, wait, what?
I know.
It's like I am incredible under this business mask.
Like, what do you want me to do with this thing?
Yes.
I mean, a thousand percent.
And so, you know, it's harmful for the individual, no doubt, right?
Because you're spending, just as you said, like you're spending all of this energy pretending.
Or like anytime you've finished a day of work and you've finally gone –
Like, and you've unbuttoned a button and you're like, finally, I'm a human again.
I don't have to pretend.
You're sort of like, let your chest fall in a little bit.
So there's a cost to keeping that up all day.
But then, as you mentioned too, there's a cost to the business, because when people feel like they need to perform business, what they're doing is they're making their work look like everybody else's work so that they don't stick out in some way.
Or they're filling their days with meetings and emails, so it looks like they're very performatively busy.
But actually, no CEO is paying for the performance.
They're like, no, where's the actual goods?
It's just ironic that people have the creativity and all the ingenuity inside of them.
If we have a great bottom line but everyone's miserable, what good is that?
Yeah.
I mean it's not good for the people who are making that bottom line great and it's not going to last very long.
Yeah.
I think that's so much of what we've seen over the last really decade in the world of work.
Engagement has created morale, has created tension and workplace stress has risen.
Retention has dropped.
We're seeing all the numbers go in the wrong direction.
People are like, oh, first it's the pandemic.
Turns out this was happening long before that.
And now we've emerged from it and the numbers are still getting worse.
So it's like okay, there's something bigger happening here that's been happening for a while and there's this disconnect.
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So you end up sort of like building this really amazing career.
You do a whole bunch of advisory work.
That's why partners now moving out into the world of actually sharing ideas and books and speaking and things like that.
So your new book today was fun.
Yes.
Why this and why now?
So honestly, what happened is my mother was diagnosed with a terminal cancer and that was sort of the start of the book, like the most gut-wrenching start you could imagine.
I'd always wanted to write a book.
For the last six, seven, eight years, it's sort of been on my mind.
I never had the time or that extra little now feeling.
When my mom got sick, I took immediate leave from work.
My dad already had Alzheimer's.
He's still around.
I just saw him this morning.
He's doing well.
But I needed to care for them.
I'm the only child.
I needed to set everything up.
And so I took the time away from work to focus on my parents, not only because I had to, but also to enjoy that time.
And one of the most profound insights that I had.
Well, anybody in that situation would feel like oh right, we're mortal and our bodies break.
And specifically it felt like such a contrast because I would be with my mom in the cancer center.
You know you're looking around at all these other cancer patients, knowing everyone has a prognosis hoping for more days.
But yeah, it was the contrast between being very close to mortality and then talking to friends who would say I can't wait till this week is over.
I can't wait till this month is over.
Why is it not Friday yet?
It felt like a very deliberate, not like...
People didn't mean to be wishing away their days, right?
It's such a common thing to say, like, oh my God, TGIF, or like, oh, it's Sunday Scaries.
But that sort of realization of what work was taking from us, which was our finite days on the planet, it felt like okay, I have something to say about this.
I have things that I've learned over the course of my career and all of this consulting that, And then frankly, I just had a little bit of time.
After my mom died, I was 50% consulting.
I was taking care of my dad.
And I was like I just need to write this down because hopefully it's going to help other people value their days in the way that I hope for them to value their days.
And so that started the writing process, I guess, almost two years ago now.
I mean those moments.
Often there are these linchpins around which is so much rotate and so much awakenings.
Often there's pain in those moments that kind of makes us and as you described being that close to mortality.
It kind of makes us realize oh wait, there's something inside of me that either needs to change or needs to get out into the world, that I feel like it matters more.
And it's been in there for a long time.
And I keep saying, oh, like next year or next year or someday or someday.
And then so often we have those moments where we're like, nothing is promised.
Like it actually has to be now.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly how it felt.
It felt like it had to be now.
I mean, that's how I felt about the... It felt like the book was inside me knocking to get out.
Like, I'm here.
I'm ready.
But then also, it's the premise of the book, too, that...
I think our culture has swung so far to the end of the spectrum.
That's delayed gratification, work hard now, save for retirement.
You know it's unfortunate that our sort of peak earning years and career years often coincide with child rearing years and elder care.
Like it all sort of comes at once and we think, okay, I'll enjoy things later.
I'll enjoy my family.
It But I think that's wrong.
Like, I think we need to swing the pendulum back a little. where did all my joy go?
You know, like you banked the paychecks, you did not bank the joy while you had it.
And so I'm hoping to inspire people with a little existential dread.
That's my goal.
I love that blend, by the way.
A book about fun, right?
It has to have a little depth.
It has to.
It's funny.
The first book I ever did was a million years ago, and I ended up – it sold 40 copies.
I published it independently before that was a thing.
Amazing.
It was actually called – my working title for it was Scared Fit, and it was exactly that thing.
It was like, there needs to be a little existential dread there.
And no publisher wanted it because of the name.
Nobody's going to buy this book ever.
But there is something to it.
So I like that you actually have more of a positive frame as the title of your book, even though there is a little existential dread built into it.
So you come up with this book, right?
And the concept is kind of like seven rules for better work days.
Yeah.
So I want to walk through some of these with you.
The first, most work, most days should be fun.
And I love this because it also feels like it's an outgrowth of a motto that you speak to early in the book, which is most things, most days.
So take me into this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The motto to start there is this is what I tell myself if I'm feeling a little burnt out or at the end of the day and I didn't get everything done.
Because any given day, I want to do all the things.
I want to get all my work done.
I want to spend time with my daughter, spend time with my husband.
I want to exercise.
I want to get a good night's sleep.
I want to floss.
I didn't call my friends.
It's like, did I get most things done? great.
Most things, most days.
Did I not floss tonight, but I'm going to floss tomorrow night?
I've actually been trying to do better with my flossing, so now it is every night.
You just can't do it all.
For me, it's a pressure release valve of not feeling like I need to be excelling in all areas of my life.
And so yeah, so the chapter title, Most Work, Most Days Should Be Fun, is an extension of that.
It's a really, well, one, a very fundamental belief that work is fun.
Work is fun at its core.
I truly believe that because it's nothing more than creating value for someone else.
There's nothing about creating value that requires pain, requires drudgery.
It's just making something that other people appreciate, whether it's paid or unpaid.
And that's it.
We get to invent all of the rest.
And it's fun to build skills.
It's fun to hang out with other people and try and create something together.
All of that is really fundamentally good.
But obviously, as we've talked about, there's a lot about work that is not fun and probably will never be fun.
I really hate making decks, and yet I've spent so long in consulting.
And so I make a lot of them.
Or whatever.
It could be something stupid like expense reports or maybe something big about your job.
But I never want to make people feel that if they're not having fun all the time, something's gone wrong.
Because it's just not true.
I think it sits in the middle.
Work is a lovely way to spend our days.
It's a lovely thing to do while we're hanging out with each other.
It can just be fun.
It can be one part of a bigger life.
And that's the premise of the title.
Yeah, and I love that you build in this tolerance that says you know okay.
So first let's challenge the assumption that work kind of has to be this thing you endure rather than this thing you look forward to, because I completely believe that too.
And I feel like if we don't start with that assumption, we don't ever explore how to make it real.
Yes.
A thousand percent.
Many of us don't.
We're just like, this is a reality.
I shouldn't have this expectation.
And I think it probably makes sense to also acknowledge we all have very different starting lines.
That may be a lot harder for some people.
If you take a single parent working three jobs with no community support and no family support, This may be more challenging.
For sure.
There may be times, seasons in any one person's life where it may be more or less challenging.
But to even plant the seed and ask the question.
Okay, if I assume there could be some level of joy in the thing that I'm doing, what would that look like?
At least that starts your brain wondering and maybe taking even the tiniest actions to make more of it happen.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a bit of a counter narrative you know just as you're saying to the notion that work is drudgery.
And when you get into a organizational culture where everyone sort of thinks or tells themselves the story that work is hard because we're doing something important which is very clear.
Common story.
That may be true, but also how much hard are you enduring?
And is it hard?
Because it's hard or because you haven't allowed yourself to think of a way that it might be kind of fun?
And that's what I'm hoping to do is sort of spark that like if it could be fun, just as you said.
What does that look like?
Yeah, and also use the word hard.
I wonder if often we conflate hard with joyless.
In my mind, I've founded a whole bunch of different businesses.
It was really hard.
I mean, I started a yoga studio in Hell's Kitchen in New York.
I signed a six-year lease for a floor in a building the day before 9-11 in New York City.
Oh, my gosh.
Right?
Right.
This is bad timing.
But we went ahead.
We opened it.
It was brutally hard the first year, but it was also stunningly beautiful and important and joyful and emotional.
And I do feel like oftentimes we think, well, there's joyful or there's hard.
And we don't actually say no.
You can actually work really hard and have an amazing experience at the same time.
For sure.
Yeah, sometimes I use the analogy of There's hard, like you're running a marathon where that is hard to be sure, but you chose it.
You've probably feel like it's good for you.
You're excited about it.
It's a way to sort of test your boundaries and do something meaningful.
That's good hard.
But then there's getting beat up, which is like, that is bad hard.
Like I did not choose this.
This does not feel good.
It's not improving my life in any way.
And to sort of make the distinction, because you're in pain in both situations, but one fuels you and one is literally beating you down.
And yeah, I think we do a disservice to conflate those.
Yeah.
And there's also, I wonder if you agree with this.
I often wonder if there's the hard that is just fundamentally a part of the thing that you're trying to do.
And then there's the hard that gets artificially superimposed on something simply because it's the way it's always been done.
And it doesn't have to be that way.
Maybe it never did, but it certainly doesn't anymore.
Yeah.
Yes, a thousand percent.
And this is like my good old rant on professionalism.
There are so many – it's just so unnecessary.
The fact that we would – like some women like to wear heels, or men for that matter, because it's like – makes you feel nice.
But the fact that you would wear heels to demonstrate your competence or profession, it's like can we just?
Let's just wear sneakers.
Like, let's not make it harder than it needs to be.
And the same is true with so many sort of professional corporate norms.
We have all these processes and you ask, why do we have this process?
Nobody remembers because five years ago something screwed up and they're like we have to put these fail safes.
It's just harder than it needs to be.
We should question, is there a more fun way to do this?
If I have to write 10 performance reviews for my team, I could do that hunched over a desk in the office.
Or maybe I go to the park with a friend and we get some lattes.
The performance reviews still get done, but one way is much more fun.
Yeah.
And that kind of weaves into your second rule also.
Your brain works whether you're wearing a suit or stretchy pants.
Sure.
It's this whole comment on the role of professionalism and how sometimes it may feel and be appropriate, but other times it's adding heaviness to the process and conformity.
And this is one of the things that you write about.
Which is, you know, if so many people are like, they love to create and they love to innovate, and that's what their leaders and their companies want from them.
And then they're like we have a culture that's built largely on conformity, but give me your best ideas and make them like nothing we've ever heard before.
It's like, wait, what?
Yes, exactly.
And so when I think about professionalism, all it means is doing good work on time, with respect, right.
I think that's pretty much it.
And you're a professional and you're exchanging some goods and people are happy for those goods.
That has nothing to do with personal grooming.
It's nice if you shower, yes.
But beyond that, there's so much that we... place on top of work that doesn't need to be there.
And when we lift that up, it's amazing to see what you find.
Like if you take a team out for a picnic to brainstorm ideas, you get a whole different vibe.
If you rearrange the furniture in the office so you're all sitting in a little circle and you know, like I've done this and gotten in trouble with facilities like that, the changing of the furniture actually, like I'm not hurting anybody's bottom line, but I'm just sort of reducing the formality that accompanies work as we know it and trying to just introduce a little humanity and mischief and and functional professionalism as opposed to the very I look the part professionalism.
So there's three things that you shared.
Good work on time with respect.
I think everyone would nod along and say like good work.
Yes.
On time.
Yes.
With respect, I think is where it gets edgy, because different people are going to have a very different understanding of what that means.
You take a Gen Z, and not to say it's the same thing for every person, every generation.
It's not.
But if you take somebody who they have grown up or started their career early in a space where it's startup, it's fast-paced, it's laid back, it's wild, there are no rules, there are no norms and it's hyper-creative and energizing.
And then you're like that person, you know, decides to take their hand at, you know, a big four consulting job and they show up, you know, it's, they'll be able to deliver great work and on time and they'll show up in a way where they feel like I'm, I'm doing this in an absolutely respectful way.
And then there may be senior partners or clients who are like, this is a disaster.
Literally just the way you're showing up is disrespecting me.
I mean, it feels like there are cultural norms and maybe generational norms that get associated with how to show up in a way that is respectful.
That makes this really subjective.
It does.
It definitely does.
A lot of times I think of it in terms of Is this person showing up the way that they're showing up, is that a difference or is that a defect?
Because it is sometimes hard to parse, right?
So sometimes like the example of like someone on your team shows up with a Boston accent.
You're not going to tell them your Boston accent is not professional.
Like that's just a difference.
It's not a defect.
They're still saying the smart words, presumably.
They're still...
Communicating, it's just different.
So when I think about dress in the office, if I'm showing up in my slouchy sweater instead of a tie or a suit, a blazer or something, Is that functionally worse?
Or is it just a different way to make my body warm and clothed?
You're right, though.
It's like people have really different points of view on this, which is why I think, in sort of a corporate culture, people tend to err on the side of safety, so that I'm not called out.
I'm not seen as different.
I do want to blend in.
I guess I just challenged what that costs us and who's allowed to be a little different.
Like your friend who had his shoes off in the office.
I'm guessing he was still great at his job.
He was still doing his work.
It's just that he did not have cotton fibers around his feet.
When you break it down, it's just like I don't know, do you have cotton on your feet or do you don't have cotton on your feet?
It just makes no difference to that person's quality of thought.
And so I would call that a difference.
If his feet really smelled and everybody is now upset about it, then maybe that's a defect.
Yeah, I love that distinction.
And it just it just it's never made sense to me.
And it's always like you know, are you doing the thing that we need you to do in the way that we need you to do it?
And more broadly from that like are you contributing to the experience of work, to the broader experience of work, to the culture, in a way where we're all, we all feel we feel good, we feel seen, we feel respected and we feel like acknowledged?
And other than that, as somebody who's hired people, I just don't care.
But I also realize I'm a bit of a weirdo in that way.
And I have worked in giant government agencies and I've worked in really big organizations where it was completely the opposite.
So I get that and-
I feel like, as the leadership, like the age of leadership, changes in larger organizations, I feel like a lot of this may end up changing too.
And that's also happening like this is all coinciding with the emergence of AI and agents and all this stuff.
So all this stuff is going to be blown up in a really big way, literally as we're having this conversation.
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Take me to rule number three.
Ah, yes.
So shoveling shit is fun if you like your co-shovelers.
So this rule is all about camaraderie.
It does not matter if we're eating crappy food.
We're going to have a beautiful evening.
If the food was wonderful, even better, like I'll certainly take it.
But the opposite does not hold true.
If I do not like the people that I'm dining with and we have a beautiful meal, I have not had a beautiful night.
Hmm.
And so when I think about work, I think about it in the same way that, if I'm going to be spending a large proportion of my life, the days of my life, around these other people, five-sevenths of the week, I want to like them.
We don't have to be best friends forever, but I want to enjoy them and respect them and think they're funny and kind.
Because if the company at work is good... the content of the work matters less.
Or if you think of the sitcom, The Office, right?
They were at a paper sales company, which is like the quintessentially the most boring job you could think of.
And I'm sure they picked it for that reason.
But they made their own fun, right?
The characters make that show what it is.
And so...
When I think about how do we make our work more fun, a lot of times our brains go straight to, like you know, how do I be more creative, or how do we fix the process, or how do I, or do I need, to get into a different role or different line of work?
But sometimes I think maybe just find the people you like hanging around and then see if maybe you can work with them.
Because, for the same reason that all these longitudinal studies of happiness, the conclusions are always the same.
It's always like, oh, it's the people.
And you're like...
Right.
Like how many more times do we have to do these studies to just to know that?
But at work, we just forget that.
And I think it's to our disservice.
And if we focus first on do we have good relationships at work and not because, like I need something from Bob and communications.
So I'm going to be nice to him.
So he returns my email.
But just genuinely like, hey, Bob, we're hanging out every day.
Like, I don't know, like maybe I should know your birthday.
And I think it just makes, it makes having fun at work so much easier.
Yeah, so great.
You know it's interesting.
You know I've been on the hiring side and and be like looking for a job side of the equation I think so many people have.
And you know, when you're on the hiring side, often you start to realize, like one of the things that's the questions that's in your mind, whether you ask it or not, what you're wondering is does this person sound like, like would I like to be around this person when I'm working, like if we're working long days and long weeks and Like months and months and months on projects, you know like, is this a person I'd like to be around?
But when you're on the applicant side, I don't think we often ask that.
You know, like when we're looking at the person or the like, you know, the lineup of people.
Now these days, you might go through a battery of a dozen or 15 or 20 interviews.
We're not sitting there and asking ourselves is this somebody who I feel like I'd love to just work side by side, shoulder to shoulder with on a daily basis?
We're really just looking at all the other stuff.
So we have the two different sides of the conversation.
One, I think, is really thinking about that a lot.
And the other often isn't.
They're just much more about the fundamental units of what is expected of me.
What is the data, responsibilities and this and that.
Does that land with you?
Yes.
I mean, and certainly from a power perspective, it always sort of feels like when you're interviewing you don't have the power until you get the offer.
So it's like you're all about the business, or like this is how I can perform and this is what I can do and is the job right for me?
And it can sometimes I mean frankly, especially with the emergence of AI and what's happening to all of our jobs it can feel like a luxury to get to choose based on who you like working with.
But i also think it's an important question to ask.
When you're high, it's like it's so, you know, like we think so much about a life partner like oh, are we, am i going to get engaged to this person and married?
And right, it's like a whole it and we have a whole wedding around it.
And like, and for good reason right, you're spending your whole life with that person, but yet you could spend 30, 40 years at a company seeing those people more than you see your spouse.
And if we don't stop to ask, do I like spending my days with these people?
Are they funny or do they make me laugh?
All those questions you would ask about a spouse, I think we've really lost something.
We've lost the amount of time that we have to grow the relationships in our lives.
If we're forfeiting that Monday through Friday.
I think that's a big loss to our lives and to our happiness.
Yeah.
Yeah, so agree.
And I think part of the invitation there is to really realize that even when you're on the seeking side, this matters.
Yes.
Pay attention to who the people are, who are asking you the questions on the other side of the screen or the room or the table, whatever it is, and just what's the vibe you get from them.
Does it feel like you would...
And I think we really just don't do that very often.
But it can often become maybe not the single most important thing, but a really important thing in how you experience the work that you end up doing.
Number four, make brilliant work.
Don't let busyness and conformity sabotage you.
What about good enough?
Yeah.
Well, you can.
You can make good enough work.
Like, not everybody is going to... I'm not saying I advocate that.
I'm just asking a question.
One could.
I would say, Jonathan, this podcast is more than good enough.
I think it is brilliant.
But yes, some people out in the world... may just want to do good enough work.
And I'm always of the opinion like, if something's working for you, don't let me tell you any differently.
So there are some people who are really far on the end of the spectrum of work to live, right?
Like I'm going to do my job and get my paycheck and I'm going to enjoy the beautiful rest of my life.
Okay, if that works for them.
But similarly to what we talked about just with friendship at work, I think that leaves a lot on the table.
And part of the joy of work is getting to feel brilliant.
And that's not just to say that's not just reserved for the people in innovation or design or things that feel more creative, but maybe you're a project manager and you have created the most brilliant way to organize a project.
That feels really good.
That feels like Maybe I've come up with something new.
Other people are going to see it and say like, damn, that's good.
Like there's so much joy in creation.
And so I think that's a really fundamental part of having fun at work is getting to shoot for brilliance.
We won't always hit it, but allowing ourself the space away from the conformity and the busyness to think expansively, to allow ourselves permission to to put something a little nutty out there, because the rewards of that are just so sweet when you feel like yes, I nailed it.
That was so cool.
And it wouldn't exist in the world if it weren't for me.
Yeah.
And I am nodding along.
And at the same time, you know I'm thinking about back to our earlier part of the conversation, which is, if we enter the work that we're doing with the assumption that the particular job or role or task that we do on a day-to-day basis is they really actually don't hold the capacity for brilliance.
That's kind of more like a checking a box type of role.
We'll never actually, then we're kind of defaulting to, let me just get through it.
Like we take the possibility of amazingness or brilliance or like off the table rather than saying okay.
So if I look at the job description yeah, this does look like a fairly like straightforward, maybe administrative work or and we never actually ask the question.
Is there either a way that I could step into this, a mode that I can step into this that would change the way I experience, that would open the door to brilliance?
Or are there ways to tweak the actual role itself, the job, the tasks, the processes, to open the door to this?
Even if on paper, you know, it doesn't seem like it's being presented to me that way.
So it's like, it goes back to the opening assumption, right?
Like we actually have to wonder if that's possible before we can even explore.
Some job is just built into it.
You know, if your job is innovation, if your job is creating, if your job is, you know, like me, but even those jobs that don't have that like as a line in the description, I think like we have an amazing opportunity to say huh, what if?
Yeah.
Yes.
I think it's just a matter of making the container for brilliance achievable enough, making it small enough.
So sometimes, yes, I talk a big game about like brilliance as if it's like changed the world.
But also if you're a barista and you make some brilliant latte art like that's going to make somebody's day right.
That's really cool.
It's like a little container for your creativity and skill and your point of view.
And I think lots of jobs have little avenues like that to make something brilliant.
Or even like... executive assistants that I've worked with.
And you might argue like, oh, they're just like organizing calendars and making everything work.
But there was one woman that I worked with, her emails to clients were so warm and lovely.
At the end of engagements, I would be like, wait, do they like her?
They definitely like her better than me.
She was just so, so personable and magnetic in a way.
And she didn't need to be.
She could have said, does July 8th at 3 p.m. work for you?
But instead she put so much love and care and brilliance into her emails, not because she was trying to go above and beyond and get a promotion although she's definitely deserved one but because she had that sort of creativity in her and it felt good to her to share it with the world.
And so i do think it's possible.
As you say, if we ask the question, it doesn't have to be big, but we can start to run a little experiment about where can i put some of my ideas.
Yeah, I love that.
As you're describing that, I literally had this flashback of being on a New York City subway train.
If you've ever been on a subway in New York or maybe a lot of other subway type of things.
Now it's all automated.
But for years, the conductor would announce the next stop, blah, blah, blah.
I remember being on a train where there was a conductor who was literally performing this theatrical thing about the next stop coming up and why it's so wonderful and everybody get up.
You can look around this packed subway car of New Yorkers coming home at night like everyone's wearing kind of tired and everyone is smiling and cracking up and loving it.
And it's like, he didn't have to do that.
And part of it, it made everybody in the trains day, right?
Yes.
But also for somebody like him, like not doing that would take away so much of the joy that was available to him to experience just on his own side, knowing that there was something awesome that he could actually create.
Yeah.
Like, yes, the joy was there for the taking.
It just takes a little bit of confidence and bravery and creativity to put it out there.
And what I love about that story too, is that I'm sure those people on the train were like how do I do?
– like what's my version of that?
That's compelling.
It's magnetic.
I ask myself, how do I be more like them?
Within an organization, too, you get those people who are just a little bit more fully themselves.
And it just spreads these wonderful ripples of, well, maybe I can do that too.
And I hold the philosophy that secretly everyone does want to be a little bit more themselves.
It just doesn't always feel safe until they see it modeled.
Yeah, love that.
And that actually really brings us nicely to rule number five keep it cool, we're all in it together, which really kind of speaks to this notion of emotional contagion.
The way we show up, it's not just about us.
It literally infects others around us, especially if there is a power differential.
Yes.
For sure.
I mean anybody who has ever been around, somebody who's mercurial, or maybe you've had a parent or a significant other, or I often say, if you've been a parent to a toddler or a teenager, those are prime.
Like, oh my God, I have to manage your emotions.
What do I do with all of this?
And so yes, in the workplace, and especially if someone has more power than you and is losing their cool right like nobody's having fun.
Fun has now been put off the table.
So of all of the rules, in some ways, this is the prerequisite to the others.
You have to have an environment of what I called emotional reliability.
Like I can rely on you and others to sort of keep your cool and not lose it and then have the rest of the team spinning.
And so this is really about what do you do when things go wrong at work, when the stress like inevitably right, it's going to happen, like there's work is stressful sometimes, like that's just, that's just sometimes true.
And so how do you manage and regulate your own emotions?
Because well, as you mentioned emotional contagion, if you're not regulating yours, people around you are probably having trouble regulating theirs.
And so what are some of the techniques and really a lot of the foundations, in stoicism of like how do we ground ourselves such that we are the masters of our emotions and they are not the masters of us?
Yeah, and we do that for ourselves and also because of the ripple that it creates.
And then that ripple comes back to us too.
It goes both out and also gets reflected back at you.
It determines the quality of your own experience as well as the quality of others.
Not 100% determines, but it's a real factor.
So it's like if you're showing up at work and you have a cranky leader or you're the cranky leader.
Yes.
And you're like, why isn't everybody happy and more upbeat and doing awesome stuff?
And you're like, oh, wait.
Because we're all responding to a certain beacon of energy that we're all attuned to.
And we're going to pick up on that.
And if that's the norm that's being established too, then all of a sudden that becomes the norm of the team or the company.
And that's just not a fun experience.
Yeah.
No, not at all.
It's just a vibe problem at that point.
This is not a good vibe.
And so yeah, what I always recommend to people because we all have emotions that are going to flare at some point is the best thing you can do in an organization or amongst a team is just say what you're feeling and why you're feeling it.
Because it starts to spiral out of control when you are stressed about some meeting you just had and you go into the next meeting and then you're all grumpy and everyone's like oh my God, is it me?
And now it's sort of turned into this stressful thing.
If you can instead just say team, even if it's something that we missed our revenue targets for last quarter, That really sucks.
I feel responsible.
I feel upset.
I feel anxious about the planning for what we're going to do.
But look, team, it's not you.
We're going to get through it together.
If anyone has ideas or wants to talk this out with me, please come to me.
This is the situation.
And if I'm like a little grumpy today...
That is why.
It's just as simple as naming it.
And then everyone's like, cool, I got your back.
What do you need?
Let me try and help you and think about this.
It's much different than team.
Let's go.
Five minutes.
Tell me what you have.
I need to get out of here.
Super different vibes.
And I feel like that extends to just your personal relationships too.
There have been days where I've said to my wife I'm like I literally had a horrible night's sleep last night.
I know I'm kind of cranky.
I know my fuse is a little bit short today.
So I just want you to know that's where I am, and I'm trying to do everything I can to be as okay as I can, but I'm probably going to be a little grumpy.
Yeah. along the way today.
And it's like, okay, thanks for letting me know.
And then we do the dance of understanding why I might be showing up in a particular way.
And I think it's a great invitation for every level of relationship, personal and professional.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you make a great point.
Relationships at work are just relationships.
Yeah.
And it's like it stops people from trying to guess what's really going on and then also start to think oh, is it me?
Did I do something wrong?
Is there something wrong with the relationship?
Rather than just like, oh, no, a person's having a bad day for whatever reason.
I have bad days.
And like, all right, we'll figure it out.
Totally.
You move into sort of like the final two of the seven rules.
And there's a bit of a gear shift also, which is like more broadly looking at life.
Number six, you are the defender of date nights, crossword puzzles, and your health.
So we're kind of zooming the lens out here now.
Yeah.
So the first five rules are all about how do you make Monday through Friday or your work schedule?
How do you make that joyful?
And you're right.
These last two are about, well, work can't be everything.
It shouldn't be everything.
And so how do you make your life beyond work joyful, good and valuable?
And you know, we sometimes have the instinct, when we're working a lot, to give work everything, and then the rest of our life gets the scraps right like oh, if i have 10 minutes before i fall asleep, after i finish doing my emails, then maybe i'll chat with my significant other.
So this rule is really about how do we – and I use the word defend because that's what it feels like a lot of the times.
How do we defend some of the most beautiful parts of our lives, including our relationships, our health and then also our leisure?
Because we deserve to do stupid things like jigsaw puzzles.
We just deserve it.
And –
And if we don't defend that time, work will very easily eat it.
Work is hungry.
It's a bottomless pit.
And so it's really up to us to value those parts of our lives, defend them and then also put some things into place.
Like You know, I'm signing off at this time, or I put my exercise on my work calendar so it doesn't get eaten up.
How do we put some things in place so that we make sure that the rest of our lives, like the main event of our lives, our lives, are getting the attention and joy and the enjoyment of them that it deserves and we deserve?
Yeah, I'd so agree with that.
And I often feel like, too, I love the word defend.
And I feel like we don't realize that defending all the non-work parts of our lives actually makes us better at the work parts.
It's a little counterintuitive.
It's like, but I'm cutting it shorter.
I'm leaving it.
It's like no.
When you have really healthy strong, supportive relationships and strong vitality and well-being, it actually allows you to show up in the work and bring more of yourself, better ideas, better energy, all the different stuff.
So it's a little counterintuitive, but it actually is really intuitive.
All these things speak to each other.
You can't isolate them.
Yeah.
It makes you a happier human.
It makes you a better human.
And I'll sometimes say a bucket of rocks don't make a boulder, right?
So you could shoot off 10 more emails that night, or you could enjoy the night, go to sleep and then wake up refreshed with a really big, impactful idea, because you've given your brain that time.
And so there's your boulder, when we're actually normally very trained to like get rid of all the messages and the slacks and like make the report and do all those things because they're immediately gratifying.
But they don't actually make us better workers and they definitely don't make us better people.
Yeah, unless you're selling rocks, right?
Yeah, I mean, if you're selling rocks, then you do, yeah, uh-huh.
And it's also, this applies as well, even if you really love your work.
Well, that's the sneakiest part, right?
Because a lot of times we don't work a lot because we feel like we're expected to and we're going to get fired if we don't.
Sometimes that's true.
A lot of times we work a lot because it's addicting and we can't stop ourselves.
In some ways, it's too fun.
That's a beautiful thing.
If you're working because you love it so much...
The downside is all in the opportunity cost.
So if you are overworking, you are underliving.
So all of that time, it comes from somewhere.
No one's making up time.
So if you are working six, seven days a week or 80 hours a week, Tell me where does your exercise go?
Where does your date night go?
Where does your crossword puzzle go?
All of these other things.
We have to think about the opportunity cost of overworking, even if it's joyful overwork.
Yeah it all.
It reminds me also the research on harmonious versus obsessive passion.
Like obsessive passion, obsessive passion is is loosely defined as you basically pour yourself into one singular pursuit, like all the energy everything, all the, to the exclusion of all the other parts of your life.
Harmonious passion is when you, like you, really devote yourself to something that you're passionate about and You allow energy to also be devoted to other things, other parts of your life relationships well-being, all the different things.
Counterintuitively, you would think well, if somebody really wants to get that thing, they're launching a big product or a company.
They have to be the obsessive passion.
That's the only way to make something really big and brutally hard happen.
Turns out the research shows that that's not true.
It's actually the harmonious, passion person that is more likely to do big hard, amazing things, because they haven't abandoned.
They have the scaffolding of all the other parts of their life to resort to and to support them when things get really hard in that one pursuit.
And when you think about that, you're like, oh yeah, of course, it really makes sense.
Like when I'm crumbling and things are really hard and there's like stakes are high.
I need my health and I need my like my relationships, because they helped me get through that.
But oftentimes we abandon that in the name of just doing the one thing.
And that really kind of brings us, I think, to like the rule number seven get good at life, not just work which is sort of like this bigger invitation to say like okay yes, there is this bigger thing, you know, and let's acknowledge that.
Yeah.
Because so often we think of, I want to do well at work, right?
Because the reward centers of our brain are just, their work sort of knows how to trick them, right?
And so it's very clear in a lot of organizations what the ladder is.
And so we're inclined to think like, what am I trying to get good at?
I'm trying to get good at work.
And that's great.
You know, like love all, love the promotions, love the more money and all of that.
But I think sometimes we forget that we can also turn our ambition to the rest of our lives.
So, like now that I'm in my forties, I'm trying to get really good at sleeping, which is never something I've like, never really thought about before, but it's been kind of fun.
You know, we got one of those like cooling mattresses and like try not to eat too late.
And It's become like a little hobby.
Or, you know, like I'm.
There's a part in the book that I talk about ultimate lounging, which I describe as like if lounging were an Olympic sport, like how would you be so good at relaxation that the Olympic committee might be interested?
And so like, so what does that look like?
Is.
Does that look like?
You know pajamas with your family and you got your popcorn, or you got your takeout and you That's getting good at relaxation in a way that's active.
And we deserve to have those things in our lives.
We deserve to be able to point our ambition and our creativity someplace other than work.
And isn't it worth it to get good at life, to get good at relationships, to be an A-plus partner or son or daughter, or whatever it may be?
So this has been amazing.
If somebody listening to this is kind of nodding along saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
What do you feel is like an accessible first step in or opening invitation?
At work, try a little mischief.
So much of what I believe about fun at work is having the agency and the creativity and giving yourself the permission to do sort of a micro act of mischief.
Like not too loud, but just maybe loud enough.
You play like a little Beyonce or U2 or whatever it is that like makes you happy.
Or you're in a meeting and instead of sitting like super proper, you sort of like fold your legs up and get comfortable.
It's sort of these little acts of humanity and play and fun that I think – allow us to sort of dip our toe into what work looks like when it's not so buttoned up.
And it gives other people permission to like, oh, that person looks way more comfortable.
Maybe I can sit a little bit more comfortable too.
Or like, you know what?
I have socks with a flamingo print.
Maybe I'll wear those.
So it's a place to start a little microactive mischief.
Love that.
Thank you.
So this feels like a good place for us to come full circle in this conversation as well.
So, in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
Good laughs with good people.
I think that's, it's a phrase that I repeat to myself often.
Um, It was spoken once by this man who was doing this performance at this rehab center.
I was at with my mom after she had had a surgery.
And he was doing some Frank Sinatra and he sort of ended this set by saying what more could you want in life than to have had some good laughs with good people?
And I was like crying.
I'm like, oh my God, that's so beautiful.
But it also just comprises what I think of as the good life.
I don't care if I'm an accountant or an author or a landscaper.
I want to be enjoying my days with people that I like, and I want to be laughing.
I want to be laughing most days, not every day, most days.
And I think if I can do that most days of my life, to me, I feel like I've won.
I've done it.
Thank you.
Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Seth Godin about turning the workplace into a wellspring of fulfillment and innovation.
You can find a link to that episode in the show notes.
This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young.
Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.
And, of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here.
Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person.
I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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