But I think there is something really important about in any field not getting to the top too quickly I'm Shane parish and this is another episode of the knowledge project a podcast exploring the ideas Methods and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured
out To learn more about the show and past guests go to fs blog slash podcast My guest today is chef Dan Kluger I first met damn when a friend took me to his restaurant lowering place in New York for a late dinner one night And like he does most nights Dan left the kitchen to come out and talk to all
the people in the dining room That prompted me to get more interested in the food and the business of running a restaurant.
We started an email conversation shortly after Dan worked in Danny Myers Union Square cafe starting in the front of the house and working his way back to prep cook and then every station in the kitchen in 1999 he helped open Tabla a restaurant and worked his way up to chef de cuisine as you'll hear
working his way up and earning his stripes So to speak was important to Dan and something that's lost on a lot of chefs today in 2010 Dan opened ABC kitchen as the executive chef and won a whole bunch of awards like the 2011 best new restaurant the 2010 food and wine best new chef and in the fall of 2016
He opened long place in New York, which is exceptional and that's where this conversation takes place I highly recommend the Sundays enjoy Can you tell me at what point did you realize you wanted to be a chef oh I Don't really know I guess it's better to give a little quick history I went to Syracuse
University not expecting to have anything to do with food and those gonna do physical therapy and ended up Taking a bunch of nutrition food science classes as a prerequisite for it.
And then I kind of started to catch this little bug and through that I was open to this lecture series that We put on and I met a number of Amazing entrepreneurs and restaurateurs and one of which was Danny Meyer And so I went to work for him as an intern college internship Came back for my I guess
my senior year and really started to get this excitement over it And and realize that this is something that I could see myself doing Being involved in a restaurant.
I didn't really know in what capacity so I graduated and it was not a culinary program by any means, but we did some cooking and it was right at the another I think stock market crash downturns of the economy and they made some cutbacks and the teacher the professor that did all the cooking classes
and all the extra curricular activities with with cooking he got laid off And so I became sort of a TA and I ended up taking over some of those classes and getting really involved with cooking and Just taught myself how to how to get through it was working with other cooks on how to do these projects
we did But again never thought it would be the the path I would choose Went back to Union Square Cafe after I graduated To do some work in the front of the house host major D that kind of thing and thought maybe there'd be something else for me to work on using my degree Really was excited about the idea of doing
some packaging products things like that so just kind of biding my time to figure out what was gonna be the next path and I Decided on my days off to hang out in the kitchen to learn a little about what that was like at Union Square Cafe You know huge kitchen or not huge kitchen, but very busy kitchen
You know at that point in time it was it was Sagat's number one restaurant in the country or city Whatever it was at that point, you know year after year, so it certainly was not it wasn't walking in some small little restaurant I mean, this is eye -opening And I enjoyed the front of the house Experience
a lot, but the idea of being in the kitchen Was intriguing so I spent a little time in my days off just to kind of understand what was going on and at some point They offered me a job as a prep cook So I was making eight fifty an hour Peeling potatoes Cleaning calamari.
I worked with the prep crew was strictly Spanish speaking I didn't speak one word of Spanish so it was really like a again very kind of cultural shock for me and I Did that for about three three months four months and and started really get into the idea of it But still was it's just a prep cook.
I mean, I didn't know where it would go to And then you know was promoted to I think oysters and sandwiches and then I was doing making all the fresh pastas and I kept working my way up and I spent just under three years there as a line cook and and then Moved onto so open table as a line cook with Floyd
Cotto's and so it really was just it was Somewhere around that point that I took this from it's interesting and I'm enjoying doing it too I think I'm actually good at this and I should pursue this as a career.
I mean it was really right around that time of Finishing at Union Square and opening table Somewhere in there that I started to look at other opportunities.
Did I did I want to cook at a small restaurant?
Did I want to do? Purchasing and and do more of a corporate thing you know, did I want to get involved with other aspects of Kitchen and restaurant business, but not be cooking because I just wasn't sure And table was an amazing amazing experience really again Opened my eyes to food and to cooking was very
different than Union Square How did that experience in the front of the house at Union Square shape?
How you acted or behaved or what you created in the back in the kitchen?
well, I think It certainly helped with What we do in the kitchen, but I think it helped more with Where I am today and the path that I've taken in Terms of really wanting to be a chef owner and create my own thing from start to finish and today we're sitting in loring place Yeah, this interview and this is your
your creation. This is this is my creation my baby All the blood literally blood sweat and tears I've gone into it so I think You know for one if I'd worked probably any decent restaurant front of the house I think that experience of being customer -facing and Enjoying customer interactions would would help
shape where I am today, but I think working for Danny Meyer and You know really being a believer in this hospitality And what was that like?
I mean, there's such a persona for Danny Meyer that I mean he's he's an amazing person Truly amazing and I I was very fortunate That when I started at Union Square Cafe, I think Grandma C tavern had opened two years prior Maybe somewhere around there not even So he was still very much, you know involved
in Union Square Cafe Paul Bowles Bevin who was his managing partner was I Mean really one of the best people I've ever met in my life and and really grasped Hospitality from from the customer side to the to the employee side Really was just a wonderful person to work with and so I was at this You know
forefront of Danny and Paul and even Michael Romano and all these people that really Believed it practiced it and and helped me experience it So that's the service -based culture that you're the service -based culture, but really the taking care of people both as your employee and as guests and I think
You know that the taking care of employees Ultimately, it's a job and ultimately we have to make money.
I think they did a lot to try and Make us feel good whether it was you know doing family meal doing What we what we kind of referred to now is lineup, which is you know We're the whole front of house staff and we also do in the kitchen they line up and we talk about what's gonna happen for the day and really,
you know just like a Big organization probably has small team meetings.
It's really no different.
But in the restaurants It's not always that common now.
I think it is and I think you know, he certainly was probably didn't create that but at the forefront of it and You know looking at things like the tip pools and all these different things that I think I Imagine again.
He didn't start but he was Served pioneer so to speak in terms of taking big restaurants and making them work this way But I think the biggest thing that that he's known for and or at least that we got from it We being people that work there even today But certainly at that time is this this hospitality
this feeling of really trying to blow a guest away What does that mean?
Like I think it's it's all about how do you take a very average experience?
So most of us go out to eat it's a means to an end, you know, your boys are sitting at the bar now They're gonna have something later is literally a means to an end.
It is they're here with you.
We're doing this They're gonna get something eat.
They don't really care.
What when where and how they just want something Yeah, and sometimes we go out because we want to experience something.
It's an anniversary.
It's a celebration sometimes it is Opportunity to see people you haven't seen in a long time.
Sometimes it's a business meeting.
Whatever is ultimately the dining is a means to an end and They were really at the forefront of how do we how do we make this special and it was always just little things I think that's always been something that I've taken away.
And I mean I again I remember how little things I had nothing to do with the actual food but where the experience Could change experience for somebody drastically and give me some examples things things I can and again, I saw us a lot at Union Square, but took a lot of it the table and I've taken it
on since then You know back 1998 if you parked on the street you had to put coins in the meters and I remember Guest at Union Square and this was not working front house saying I need some change to go put money in the meter I said here, you know, I'll get it for you from the bartender So why don't
you just tell me where your car is and you know, they didn't have to give me a key at that point I'll do it for you.
Well, no, no, you don't need to do that.
I don't want to interrupt your meal Why don't you sit down enjoy your meal?
Just tell me where your car is and we'll take care of it for you And I think those little things were things that people didn't really do It seems so much today that everything runs around the business and by the business I mean it's like the process for the business instead of what is in the best interest
the customer Because being in the best interest of the customer means a lot of variation And you have to be able to accommodate different things.
You have to hire Probably differently.
Yeah. I mean I think in general today.
We probably accommodate a lot more than restaurants would have 15 years ago again taking taking in a Relationship or a restaurant similar to any Union Square hospitality restaurant an average restaurant, you know, they wouldn't have done something like that they wouldn't go out and Get a newspaper for a regular
sitting at the bar that has nothing to read You know, they they they wouldn't do those little things But you know now I think we do so much to try and accommodate and it's it's not to like win this war It's it's just you're here and I'm happy you're here.
It's it is a little bit of a transaction but I also think you know, we're at a point where the industry is in a position of raising costs and all these different things that are affecting us that The accommodation still need to happen, but they need to happen on a sort of non financial side, you know,
right Talk to me about there seems to be almost a rite of passage to become a chef All right, like you start or maybe I misunderstand this I don't know anything about how you become a chef But it it sounds from a lot of stories that I've heard like you start out as you know The lowest of the low in the kitchen
sort of and then you work your way up and it's almost this war of attrition Yeah, I'm all very valid.
And I think that the war of attrition is certainly a very valid point.
That's the reason why I Don't know I think I grew up in the industry with a lot of very talented people and many of which have gone on to become chefs But I also come look around and see so many people that I would have thought would be a chef and they're not today They went to do something different
because it's it is a tough industry I do think there's something to be said for working your way up and it's not a say lowest of the low but you know because that almost sounds derogatory but there's something missing today about a cook that doesn't know how to Peel a potato properly.
They don't know how to run a dishwasher, right?
And is that common?
I think so. Yeah, I mean I could I could find You know four different examples whether it's filleting a fish or butchering a chicken Or turning an artichoke or something that that you know Solid cooks have not been experienced hmm to do this yet, you know They went to school and they butchered one chicken
or they butchered six chickens, but they they haven't done a hundred They haven't done ten cases they haven't done it you know Twenty pieces every day for six months to the point where they have now pushed themselves to get so much better And it goes back to the whole apprenticeship thing, right?
I mean if you think back old world somebody any kind of craftsman any kind of Job where you had to learn a skill you sort of started from the bottom And you worked your way up if you were a shoemaker, you know, you didn't just start making Shoes on day one.
You had to work your way up if you were You know somebody working with steel Again, you had to you had to work your way up thinking about construction.
I mean anything so Now we think you can just watch a youtube video and you're an expert there there is so much of that and I I don't think that anybody necessarily thinks there's they're experts, but um For better or for worse, there's so many opportunities now to learn right away, you know I read book
upon book upon book and I get caught up today in YouTube videos and these amazing food websites that it's like Just like that that black hole of the internet you just keep going and going going and it's exciting to learn And I think back if I had had that you know when I was starting out I probably
wouldn't have read any of these books which would have been Detriment on another part of my career.
You know, I'd learned so much from reading these books and from experiencing food and Food that was being done all over the country, you know anywhere from from that point in time, you know Early 90s to 20 30 years before that But I think there is something really important about in any field Not getting
to the top too quickly um and really paying your dues somewhere and I you know, I maybe i'm not um I maybe didn't do it the best way in the sense that I spent a lot of time in a very few number of places um, I spent three plus years at uni square cafe, I spent Seven years at tabla.
I spent I think four and a half years at the court club I spent five years with with john george and abc and now i'm doing my own thing You know, I know a lot of other people who did a lot less And saw a lot more places and were probably exposed to many more things than I ever will be um So I in some
in some respects I i'm sorry.
I didn't get that experience um, but there's also something to be said about honing your skill and in one place and and You know gave me the opportunity to sort of like take ownership.
Yeah over every place.
I was at I spent so long there that it was hard not to feel like an owner And talk to me about how the idea for lorning place started as a seed and germinated and Became reality, okay?
um Ultimately, I think from as early on as uh, you know The the end of my time at tabla I started thinking about i'd like to own something I really i'm committed 100 percent.
That's what I want to do um, but I really want to Not only call the shots, but I want to build something from scratch I've always enjoyed that idea whether it's a the physical building or just the you know philosophical build something from scratch um And so I was working at this private membership
club called the core club Um, it was an amazing experience where I was the chef and and again while I was an owner I was I was there long enough and and in a position high enough that I couldn't help but feel ownership over it, right?
I mean you're in there every day like you're in there every day sweat and tears and and you know You're responsible for numbers and you're I think this was a really amazing experience because there's a private membership club that you know It was hard.
I couldn't invite friends to to eat.
I I I think my family came once in the four plus years.
I was there um it was private for a reason and I think in some respects that that was beneficial because Um, it made me have to work that much harder getting staff Because nobody really knew anything about it.
It's there was no new york times review There was no, you know blog posts about it So it made me really kind of I think work on this philosophy of of creating a tight -knit group of people Um, you know the the employees and um, I mean some of them are Still here with me today and that was 2005 um So
I I think while I was there um, I was around you know, some of the best ceos entrepreneurs in the world and and I just really Kind of spent more and more time thinking about I want to do this I want to do this and um, I worked on a business plan back in like again, I think 2006 2007 and Um, it was right
when stock market crashed and I knew I wasn't going to raise any money.
Um, And I also felt like you know I'm still young and as much as I want to do something it's maybe it's not the right time and um, I was very fortunate enough to meet John george at the farmer's market and went to go work for him And was incredibly happy with what I was doing.
But again, there was always this kind of like burning need to do my own thing, um and and so It strikes me as like they're they're completely almost Creative strengths, but they're not commonly found together I mean to be a great chef and to be a great entrepreneur at the same time Talk to me a bit Yeah,
I mean, I think obviously there's there's a number of amazing ones John George being one of them danielle belude being another wolfgang puck I mean, there's plenty some of which have done big empires and some have done small um But I think A lot of us have that creative bug That doesn't just end with the food.
It goes into the dining experience in some form or another and Um again for me, you know, the what were the glasses?
What were the plates?
I had a vision very early on of what I wanted the plates to be based on um a bowl that my parents set of bowls My parents gave me when I went off to college and said, you know here we got these in vermont Really nice little bowls and you can use them for cereal or whatever in your dorm room.
And right? They they I still have them today Um, and they were just this cool shape that I I went to the guy that um I was friends with that.
I knew would do the plates.
I said I want to base it off of this so the the creativity you know obviously, we need to always be creating food, but um I don't think that necessarily gets old or or we burn out on it But i'm always wanting something new and so the idea of now starting to create a restaurant and create plates and create
the Atmosphere and the playlists and all these other things.
It was just one more thing to you can control the environment and to some extent Yeah, yeah, and and you know again that leads to finding other people that want to be part of that as well um, so I don't know if it's necessarily uncommon um To have those things go together, but it is definitely Less
common. Um And I think you know, there's there's plenty of incredible chefs that I know Um that really you know, they want the front house experience to be great, but they're not really that concerned about um What what's the overall package?
And I think as you you know, you go back to attrition I think as you watch there's less and less of those around I think more and more people are saying I I do want to be part of the whole package and I want to find a partner front of the house or Front of the house guy finding a partner in a in a chef
um that again has those same sort of wants and needs of full creation and being involved and and You know full creation doesn't mean it's it's narrow -minded.
It can still be a team Um, but being able to say like really want to Do all this stuff.
I don't want to just Work for somebody else.
I want to do all this what goes into When when I come into a restaurant and I sit down I start reading a menu and You know these dishes look amazing, but what goes into the creation of a dish that I see on a menu I think it's I think it's different for Everybody what's your creative process for for me?
There's um There's a few different ways to a few different things that kind of come together and sometimes, you know We're very seasonally driven and we use a lot of local farmers use square farmers market and and um all sorts of other farmers that deliver to us, but um as things are coming in season walking
through the farmers market and You know having this tactile experience of picking up something and then picking up something else and smelling aromas in the air And kind of like I mean literally it could be you can pick something up and you can have a flashback of something you ate 10 years ago um So
so that can start the process um, that's one one portion of it and again, I mean I can think of examples of walking through the farmers market and um picking up some tomatoes And then pick up some peaches and I I love the combination of peach tomato and then picking up um some fennel and some onions
and think about like doing some with all those things together and Coming back and working on something and making it a dish.
So that's obviously, you know one way and it's again very tactile It's very much um in the moment of of the inspiration Um, I also think sometimes it's It's driven by a need um, you know, we we know that um I don't know.
We know that english peas are coming to an end and that tomatoes are about to happen And strawberries are at the market And have to work on something and so then it's kind of like either going to the market or going downstairs and And sort of like just forcing yourself to again have this tactile experience
of touching and looking and thinking about things and sometimes it's literally like walking down the Somebody station and picking up a tomato and then going to the next station eating a piece of cheese and then going to the next station Like taking a little piece of ginger and thinking oh wait All those
have kind of like created something interesting in my mouth right now and I wasn't planning on A dish, but it became something um and then I think the other one that that Sometimes happens and again, it really spawns off of there's a need to change something um But I could literally be Looking at a magazine
and see a picture of something not even read the Caption no idea what i'm looking at but for whatever reason something sparks And close the magazine kind of like never think about that again But that made me think I really want to do something with lamb.
I haven't done anything with lamb in a while and then pull from either childhood memories or pull from a dish that You know i've done years before and that becomes something and for this restaurant There was a lot of all of those things coming together I wanted this restaurant to sort of be a little
bit of a exploration a little bit of a Celebration so to speak of restaurants.
I worked out in the city, you know, i've only worked in the city Um, I don't have a cultural background Like like, uh danielle or jean george um marcus samuelson Et cetera, like I didn't have This This cultural background that I saw you know, floyd carot's who was a mentor of mine I saw him pull from this every
day every day. We cooked he pulled from his indian background and And was able to talk about something he had as a child growing up And so I I said, okay I am not going to rip off dishes from the past but I need to borrow from them I need to be inspired by them and I think a you know, great example
of that Is we have a crispy cauliflower dish on the menu which was really inspired by something we did at obla and something I I did later on somewhere else and It's coated in indian spices that um, we used to make this Dish, I think it was scallops with like this cauliflower puree with tomatoes And
I mean nothing to do with what we're doing But just that again thinking about some of these combinations made me say all right Well, I don't want to use x y and z but the cumin was amazing with that cauliflower and the turmeric was great So what if you make a spice paste of that now?
We add some chilies in and now we're gonna batter it and fry it and now we have something that's amazing.
It tastes great But needs something else and then thinking about okay.
What are some what are some like more american things?
how do I get away from the spice now and pull back and we liked a lot we like to use a lot of Sweet sour spicy salty crunchy like all these things that create these Peaks and valleys as you eat, you know, one bite is one thing one bites another so In that one specific dish was like, okay.
Well now what are the other components?
How do we make? Something sweet and sour and so we made a lemon jam And then we added some pickled chilies and then we had some cilantro for this, you know Strong herb flavor and so all these things kind of became a dish, but they're all inspired by something else I mean that's kind of happened throughout
the menu and then a lot of the desserts have taken shape From from childhood favorite things of mine hostess cupcake the blizzard And cookies and some other things like that and then I think same for for our pastry chef diana It's or things that that she's excited about that.
She remembers eating or something that seems kind of mundane like a Bread pudding.
How do we make it really exciting?
And so again, these little twists that make it really exciting is every day different Every day is different But mainly because of who's coming in We don't change what we're doing.
We're not a restaurant that As much as we do change the menu We don't change change the menu daily and especially create menus just because of who's coming in Um, but for me, you know, I think I think for the majority of the staff every day is fairly similar.
There's Definitely ups and downs who called out sick.
What did we not get today?
You know, did we do we sell a ton of ducks yesterday?
And so now, you know, we're really behind today and that's a big project Um, but for me, you know every day is very different because a my task list can be because I enjoy the customer interaction I find that you know I can have a night where I know half the dining room and it just the night just flies
by you know between Spending time with people and then just making sure that those experiences are amazing and then I'll have another night where I don't know anybody And so now i'm challenged to Really push.
I don't have anybody to to really connect with so how do I go out and connect with them?
And how do we how do we make that experience?
How do I put? Coins in the meter for somebody, you know, I can't do that So what do I do and allow that is finding a way to connect through food and see that you know Uh again, you know two boys are sitting at a table I have a feeling they probably wouldn't mind some ice cream And so, you know, how
do we get ahead and do something kind of special for them or?
um overhearing somebody talking about Bacon and thinking about okay, they didn't order bacon, but we make an incredible bacon in -house How do we send them a little bacon so that all those things kind of make my day more exciting?
One of the things that stuck out for me I think it was sort of a month ago that I ate here for the first time we were kind of introduced Was how visible you were in the dining room and that was an experience that i'm not used to as a customer Yeah, I think again that goes back to um a my love for The
interactions I love for the Essentially the instant gratification of talking to someone about the food But certainly my experience of spending time in the front of the house and experiencing That that first impression of somebody walking in the door and how That greeting at the host end to getting them
to a table how Many factors there are in that and how easy it is to really screw that up or blow somebody's mind and again, I can think about Times at union square cafe.
I remember walking people to a table and creating a Very quick relationship.
I mean one time I remember Quickly like literally, I mean in in 30 steps Having a discussion and realizing that they were from london and I was going to london the next month and We connected quickly and I ended up going and spending a night with them and cooking with them That's awesome at their house,
you know so that that all those little things have always made it very exciting for me to be part of The front of the house and be part of that experience Take me behind the scenes in the kitchen.
What does it look like when the kitchen's working?
Exceptional and what does it look like when it's a struggle and what are those differences?
um A lot of it comes down to being prepared um and then communication Ultimately if we are prepared, it's Kind of use the analogy of going into battle if we're prepared for battle Right there You know, what's it saying?
It's like half the battle, right?
I mean Being prepared sets us up for success and from there um, the the next part of the struggle is the communication and it's it's literally like Somebody's having a bad day.
They they have a cold.
They can't hear you properly The dining room is just really boisterous and loud tonight and it's seeping into the kitchen and it's interfering um, all those little things can play a factor in how we're communicating with each other, but Um, you know assuming everybody's prepared Which is as simple as
having all the herbs you need and and having all the lettuce you need and having the ducks ready And all those things or not And and then basically just Having constant communication.
It's it's a rhythm.
I mean you talk about the peaks and valleys of the food that the The rhythm of the kitchen is very much Same thing it's up and down.
It's up and down. And so again, there's so many factors It's how how's it going in the front of the house?
Did you show up on time for your reservation?
Were you late for your reservation?
Were you supposed to be four people and you're six people were you supposed to be six people and you're four people?
You know, you'd think that those things don't really matter, but they actually have a huge impact on what we're doing And so, you know again, there's so many factors But assuming that things are falling into place We're really just kind of going up and down and up and down and you know, you call out
a ticket Then you you fire, you know four things and everybody says great Eight minutes will be in the window and now assuming that they're communicating communicating properly eight minutes later Everything goes in the window and somewhere in between that eight minutes You're firing the next group
and literally it's just up and down up and down up and down But it doesn't it doesn't take much to throw a wrench in things, you know You burn something you run out of something again something happens to the table You know, we're really I think the industry is in an interesting space right now in terms
of that sort of thing like just People kind of losing sight of as we talked about earlier.
It's a transaction, you know, if you have tickets to hamilton You're gonna go and if you have strep throat and you don't feel well You're gonna find a way to either go or sell the tickets off.
Yeah, and I certainly don't advocate, you know selling a reservation and I don't advocate coming in sick but No, but it is hard to get a reservation here, right?
It's hard to get a reservation and it really is.
I mean we're seeing more than ever I think um a huge shift in tables just not showing up canceling five minutes before people showing up late and then wondering why they can't be sat um, you know what happened last night and I So tempted to just say When's the last time you were late for a flight?
Yeah, never. I mean you didn't get on that flight if you were But yet i'm gonna hold the seat for you.
I'm gonna i'm gonna lose a transaction to somebody who's actually waiting In the hopes that you're going to show up.
So again, all those things are to say that um we've had nights, uh Where it's slow and it is just It is a haul all night long, you know You can never get out from underneath it and then we've had nights where it seems incredibly busy And you look at the number at the end and you turn around and say
I I would have thought this was like a hundred less covers It was so easy And a lot of that is just if the rhythm just keeps working and working and working And the prep is there beforehand to make the night So some nights you actually know you're probably going to have a slog right before dinner service
because you're not In the place that you want to be.
Yeah, which you know again going back to that.
No day is every same We we have a lot of systems in place and we have an amazing team that then looks and says, okay It's 5 30 and we still need x y and z.
Okay. I'm gonna keep this person to do this I'm gonna do this myself and i'm gonna give these three things up to these other people Because we know that you know, especially on a on a Friday or Saturday whatever night of the week Really if at 5 30 you're not ready.
It's gonna be downhill for not just that one person but for everybody around them Talk to me about dan the boss in terms of like how you the end of the night Something didn't go well You got a deeper if you got to fix it because you don't want it to be a repetitive problem.
How do you handle that?
Um, we do a couple different things.
I mean for for one um For one we try and uh communicate Um through a lineup at the end of the night, you know, hey these things didn't go right um Whether it becomes one on one with one specific person, but most of the time it's a team thing um And then we do a lot, um sort of on the back end With all
the managers with recaps so that the next morning whoever's opening that wasn't here knows that the three things that were Significant problems are all picked up first thing in the morning.
So 7 30 8 o 'clock in the morning Those things are going to be addressed.
So hopefully come five o 'clock the next day Whatever that issue was is not an issue again today.
You know, we really are trying to do a lot of that Ultimately, you know, we we want to get better.
We want to smooth things out but I can tell you that there there is a lot less today of the You know kicking and screaming and and throwing things because something didn't go right Nothing's really worth it.
I don't know because the team's stable across years or I I think I think certainly i've matured.
I think the people around me have matured.
I think um I have more on the line today than I ever have but uh, so you'd think that it'd be the opposite I'd be even more high strung about it.
Um, I think ultimately, you know, we've all started to realize that um It's it's just not the way to go Uh, and you know that that adage of you get more bees with honey than vinegar.
It's really the same sort of thing.
I mean Um being being in a pissy mood is not going to say get anybody anywhere Do a lot of coaching.
We spend a lot of time coaching people and sitting people down and and talking about performance and I think that sends a serious message that uh, you know, this isn't just a We're not we're not just gonna yell at you and and throw some at you we're gonna take the time We're gonna sit down.
We're gonna tell you what's going on Here are things you need to improve on here are things that i'm, sorry Like i'm i'm not even gonna mention again that you just need to figure this out yourself Um, it seems like some cases the performance would be black and white like you burn this you didn't cook
it properly And in some cases it'd be totally subjective.
Yeah, how do you handle that?
uh, I mean I think it's Same thing with you know Everything else in life, right?
I mean think about your kids Certain things that your expectations are very black and white you brush your teeth in the morning You get dressed in the morning you clean up your room in the morning You eat dinner at night you go to bed at night That's black and white, but there's always things in between that that make
it a little bit gray Um, so I think we kind of look at it the same way, you know that If you burn something That's pretty black and white again We have to look at why is there any reason behind it before we react?
um You're brand new on the station I I have to expect that you're going to burn some things And so then that means that we got to do a better job training you A lot of it comes down to training as well, you know trying to take a step back We're just talking about this five minutes ago that you know
somebody that we're we're looking to hire and where do we put them what do we do with them and my whole thing now is being really cautious about not setting somebody up for failure and I mean obviously that that should be Plain and simple.
Nobody wants to do that, but Um, it's harder and harder to find Really great staff.
So I'd rather struggle a little bit taking a step back Than to just think that we have this amazing new band -aid and the reality is it's gonna, you know bite us in the ass later on What would you say is the biggest misconception people have about chefs?
I don't know. I I think uh There's probably a bunch out there today obviously one is that that we all eat very well I think uh, most of us on our days off don't really want to do too much cooking.
Um I think because of the um Top chef gordon ramsey all those kind of things.
I think the perceptions that we all Scream and curse and throw things.
I mean do I curse? Yes I try not to curse in general.
I try not to curse around my kids But once a while I call my smart ass and and you know that sends a message to them It's sort of the same thing here.
Yeah, again fairly black and white in terms of expectation.
And so when we have to Look in between the lines It's it's somewhat acceptable in my book to Tacked a little differently if that makes sense um I I think the other I don't know if it's a misperception, but again, I think those those books and um That sort of like mentality is that you know, we're all
partying rock stars and again I don't think that's not necessarily the case.
I think there's plenty of people that are doing that But I think there's plenty of us that you know After work We're not going out and drinking until four o 'clock in the morning and we're just going home and going to bed and waking up and Doing all of them again the next day but um, what is your typical
day like like what time does it Start here and then what time do you kind of get out of here and then do you have to wind down when you get home?
Or is it? Um Yeah, I mean my days have changed a little bit.
Uh, I now live in the suburbs So the commute has kind of helped with the winding down Um, i'm a lot better today at kind of turning off Um, I start somewhere between 11 and 12 depending on what's going on Um work all day and then again depending on how crazy it is i'll be here Typically to about 11
sometimes on the weekends a little bit later Um, I try and take two days off And typically I try and take saturday sunday off but um sort of find myself uh in between a five day and a six day and then you know working saturday's and then Uh the next week taking the two days off um So I finish here typically
around 11 12 and then it's about 45 minutes hour commute home, so I wind down And then get home do some emails kind of review things from the day Uh go to bed wake up around 6 30 and Do some more emails go to the gym and then come here.
What's your favorite thing on the menu?
I don't have any I I love all of them equally just like my children.
Um I don't know. I it really depends on what mood i'm in.
Um I certainly can never pass on a piece of pizza Um, I can almost never pass on a french fry.
Is that your go -to when you're at home?
No, no, not at all.
It's just I mean I guess to do my own horn the pizzas are pretty damn good.
It is it's amazing and the french fries are pretty damn good But um, I mean pretty much every day.
I do like a piece of fish and some vegetables um And uh, is that part of the family meal beforehand or yeah, yeah, and and you know, again, I I Pack my day kind of snacking and non -stop.
So I I try and take Um, I try and take about 10 minutes at some point just to do one thing for myself.
That's healthy and smart Um in that respect, what are some of the strange requests that?
customers have um I don't know.
I don't I don't think I don't feel like we get that many, um and I think in part because the menu is so vast and So easily flexible.
I mean, you know gluten free dairy free Uh, you know so many things on the menu that that you can choose from so a little variation is no big deal um Which I think the the weirdest thing i've been asked Is the gluten free dairy free thing a steady or is it yeah?
I mean there's there's a few every night um and It it's a challenge but it's actually um I don't mind it by any means.
I mean we we do a veggie burger at lunch that um over the year i've kind of done a veggie burger for Years and years now and every restaurant's obviously a little bit different in this last version Um, we've made it gluten free and now we've done a dairy -free bun um and a vegan mayo So you know thinking
about how to how do you cater to those needs and how do we make it?
Even better than it was before.
Uh, you know, my my whole thing is I don't have a problem sort of catering to the needs but if i'm going to do it then I got to do it my way and just make it better than What the perception would have been and this goes back from even uh, I guess as far back as the court club when We kind of were adamant
that this wasn't going to be country club food and and um, tom clique was the consulting chef He hired me for it.
And so and we said it's not gonna be country club food We're gonna do a real restaurant and we did and and then because of demand we started to see the need for the entree salads and Turkey club and all those kind of things.
I said fine. I have no problem doing it, but you know the chickens for the salad are going to be uh Organic chickens from a small farmer that we roast and we pick it and we marinate it and it's gonna be amazing greens and all these different things and the turkey club is going to be like the best turkey
club using Turkey that we roast every day and I think it pays off in the long run Again, that's that's not groundbreaking people are doing that everywhere now But I think at that point in time it was it was a little bit of a challenge and people kind of they they wanted their Their more, uh, you know
deli meat version of the turkey club and they didn't really care about freshly roasted organic Chickens, they just wanted a chopped salad that was Chopped really small It seems like different cultures have different relationships with food New york, uh is super busy and you have almost two extremes,
right? There's this sit down social Let's celebrate and connect or let's grab this fast food and take out and walk and eat as we go Whereas french culture seems way more.
It's only on one end of that which is sit down and Let's have this food together and let's bond over the food.
Talk to me about what you want people to experience I think I want them to experience Essentially, whatever they want.
Um I just want to eat and get out I I want to feed us all I want to have something that I am excited that I spent the money on I had a great bottle of wine.
I had wonderful service They understood that I was with two kids that were not going to have a long attention span They helped me make something special for them But I got great food real restaurant food Um in in the setting that I wanted so I see the need for that I also You know the odd occasion that I
do date night I don't want to screw with that.
I want to be able to take my time and relax and so We try and read that as well and understand, you know, is this a business meeting?
Is it is it an occasion and how do we alter the experience for that?
Do we go fast? Do we go slow?
so ultimately I think especially in new york, you know, you you have to be flexible with that and You have to understand that people are going to want different things out of that experience and and Essentially, I have no problem giving that to them One of the things I noticed that you guys do differently
that i've never seen done anywhere else before But it's probably more common than than this but talk to me about what goes into I noticed when you open a When somebody orders a bottle of wine you actually open it and taste it before it goes to the table Yeah, how did that come about?
they I mean, I I think that is common but um Maybe because the wine station is sort of front and center you see it Um, I think it's important.
I mean it's you know with the kitchen sort of the same thing we have um Check points or what we would call lines of defense, you know when it's made it's it's tasted.
It's checked. It's signed off on When it comes up to station its taste is checked.
It's signed off on when it's in the window It's checked and it's signed off on it So you kind of do the same thing with with the beverages the wine, uh, you know You'll see the bartenders mix up a cocktail and then put a straw on and take the straw Obviously not sipping off the cocktail but sipping
it from from the side um To see that it's made right because you know if there's nothing worse than if you are excited about this bottle of wine and it comes to your table and it's corked That transaction now of saying I don't like it makes an uncomfortable experience for the guest So we should try
and catch that beforehand and you know, sometimes maybe we don't or sometimes we might not agree with With your perception, but ultimately if you're not happy, then we want you to be happy and we take it away um, but I do think it's really important to try and capture that ahead of time because again,
you know, these are all parts of the transaction and Just like the first impression of when you walk in the door How you're greeted all those things then how do you get to the bar?
Then how do you get to your table all those parts of of the experience are a part of the transaction.
So I mean, it's certainly not beneficial if the steak comes out or the burger comes out improperly cooked or the the Pizza doesn't have on it what's supposed to have on it or the salad doesn't have what's supposed to have right all those things would be Detrimental to the experience same thing with the with the wine
I was talking to somebody about it and they were blown away They were like, I don't know why every restaurant doesn't do this But I hate it when they open a bottle of wine and they pour it in my glass And then I have to be the one that decides for the table if this that's good to know Yeah, I will certainly
start paying more attention when I go out to eat.
That's for sure What are the things that you wish customers?
Uh knew more about Obviously your attention to detail but yeah, I mean I think you know, some of that attention detail is taken for granted I think the sourcing Everything that goes into Everything we do Um, I think it's often not understood or maybe taken for granted.
I mean the the pizzas The bread The pastas we mill almost all the flour in -house using grains from local farmers Um, why does that matter?
Because to me it was part of sourcing the right product and making the best thing that I could um, and I think By doing that it has, you know a slightly nicer flavor.
I think there's a there's an overall benefit to it And so to me that was one of those attention details was one of those steps that we would take as part of the business Um, and so I think you know if you just try and compare apples to apples Well, I had a pizza at another restaurant and it was you
know, two dollars less You can't necessarily do that.
Um, you know using Using so many products from local farmers sending a guy to the farmer's market And and paying him to walk around the farmer's market for two hours collecting vegetables and the the best strawberries he can get and the best herbs and then paying for An uber to bring it over here and then
unpack everything I mean it'd be so much easier to have everything just shipped to the door, but that's not what we want to do and again I think you know That that can be taken for granted people don't realize how much goes into it um And you know, I think in in general restaurants work very hard at um
Trying to create good experiences and try and source profit and all those things and I think There's a lot of restaurants that don't and not in a negative way.
It's just again means to an end It's not what they want to do and I think I think It's very easy to To try and group apples to apples and it's not so easy in the restaurant business I mean if you think about your wine experience here That's an extra step.
It costs some money in some form or other it it slows things down um It's it's somebody's time That's something we want to do that's something we believe in but you know, you you won't see that on most Occasions you're not going to pay attention to that.
And so again, so those little things that get taken for granted It's interesting because in some cases I mean there's a story about what you're consuming in terms of like where it came from and what went into it and the Craftsmanship, which is amazing.
And in some cases it's the absence of air or awkwardness That's really interesting, but those are hard to kind of I would imagine Educate customers on because it's the lack of a feeling not the feeling itself.
Yeah Yeah, I mean I would I would say if somebody doesn't like something I'd rather them not like it because it's not their taste them for them to not like it because You know didn't meet the expectation of Another restaurant they went to or something they'd heard or they think it's too expensive you
know again It's really hard to say that these restaurants are apples to apples.
I look at prices of other restaurants and I'll say oh well their their duck is the same price of ours or their duck is three dollars more or wherever It's not fair for me to even judge that because I don't know what goes into it I have an idea of what they're buying but I don't know what goes into it.
They could have you know, a process that raises the price 200 percent So again, I think it's very easy for us to to just say well To just try and compare just like how subjective are the prices like is it a cost plus pricing or is it?
Yeah, I mean pretty much everything is some kind of you know, cost plus Um, which you know calculates in your labor and your rent and all those things again I think you talk about what the customers realize or don't realize.
I mean restaurants in general.
It's a it's a very costly business and It's getting even harder and harder and harder.
What's making it harder?
Everything from the costs of goods to the cost of labor um to Insurance.
I mean this year alone, you know, the cost of labor went up drastically cost of insurance went up drastically um Cost of goods have gone up, you know a marginal amount but it's We're not we're not doing We're not doing a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in in purchases we do substantial amounts
So you had 10 on to it.
It's a very big number you add in the the Increase in minimum wage, which I totally respect and understand Um, but it is a it is a substantial difference You know if if I was driving around in a Lamborghini, I could understand Saying that this is an unfair Variance and and that's not the case.
I think all these things are important for us to look at and understand um and and the right cost of living is valid and fair but There's a lot of again sort of trying to compare apples to apples So it's a probably a whole other podcast, but you know if you if you think about a worker at a local diner
A server at a local diner and what they make versus a server here.
That's not apples to apples You can't just group them as servers if you think of a cook at mcdonald's and a cook here They they can't be grouped as apples to apples and we're kind of forcing ourselves to do that I mean a cook at a restaurant like this has I don't know $50 ,000 in school loans to pay
off between college and culinary school on average.
Yeah, a cook at mcdonald's does not necessarily Have the same thing um So there's a lot of things I think in in this industry that that are getting harder and harder and um, I I think we'll see more shifts in some form or another um either, you know more restaurants closing than we want or Uh prices
going up even more and people eating out less.
I'm not sure what it's going to be yet, but um You sense the Changing kind of landscape.
Yeah I mean costs costs are different and This isn't a non -profit You know not doing this to get rich, but i'm also not doing it to be non -profit.
I have investors to pay back.
I have You know friends and family to pay back and so do my fellow chefs restaurateurs managers, you know Who've gone out to do the same thing and we were all griping about the same thing In some form or another we're in the same boat What was the scariest moment that you've had since opening?
Waring place The moment when you thought you were going to fail or the world seemed to be just pushing it on you And how did you recover from that?
I mean, I don't know if anything I would say was scary or felt failure.
I think um The hardest thing is the review process Because parview wants you to say i'm doing what I believe in and screw everybody else Then the other part of you says, okay.
Well these guys unfortunately matter right people are paying attention to them And it becomes kind of This struggle of well, we're always trying to be perfect whether you're a viewer or not because we don't necessarily know who it is We're always trying to be perfect and we always want the service to
be right and the food to be right So it doesn't matter and and then at that same token this feeling of Okay, you know you're getting judged it would be like it would be like, um going to take your sats and and Your scores only based on five questions that you don't know about Like you take a test with I
don't know 200 questions in it and only five of them mattered But you don't know which five they are So for years like, you know, we worked so hard through this process of reviews I mean, I think almost five months changed the menu multiple times.
I mean really we're working hard at fine tuning everything and ultimately The reviews were based on a handful of dishes and You know, we've we've gotten good reviews and I can't complain about that But there's a feeling of well, why do we work so hard to have, you know, an amazing broccoli?
Nobody talked about the broccoli.
Why do we work so hard to have?
Uh, an amazing halibut nobody talked about the halibut or whatever the case was Um, you know, you're sort of just judged on again when you're a restaurant that has 40 something items You're judged on like 10 of them It can be hard to stomach those opinions And I think ultimately again, we were very
happy and I think the staff was happy um, but I I Think it was certainly the hardest time In my life in terms of really trying to stay focused and again go back to Like I care about them, but I don't care about them.
I'm doing what I believe in i'm cooking from the heart and i'm Building something that the team that's here wants to be part of And wherever the chips fall, they fall So trying to have that mentality, but then also say Yeah, but they still matter so, you know got to got to always keep that in mind And
and it's just a it's a struggle Been madder because they drive traffic or they determine outcomes in a way.
I I think both. I mean, I think you know We had plenty of chatter and we had plenty of press Um, but you know the reviews that theoretically matter and i'm not even sure how much they matter today given the the new landscape of social media and blogs and and so many other things out there, I mean you
have a social media influencer with a million followers I would be interested to see the difference between that and the The amount of subscriber subscribers that looked at xyz magazines review, right?
Um, I mean it just it again hard to balance But I do think they they help to drive traffic.
They help to give a little bit a sense of not meaning but sort of recognition like You worked really hard and here's a stamp of approval or in some cases a stamp of disapproval on Ultimately, it's one person's opinion, but it it does make a difference.
And so I think that was the hardest thing for this I think just getting getting the doors open that whole struggle of I mean the construction was a beast It just felt like we would never never get open You know couldn't couldn't get inspections couldn't get gas couldn't get construction finished up
You name it and all the while I like to literally just see that, you know proverbial bank account going lower and lower and lower and it's like negative balance every day Meanwhile, you can't you can't stop what you're doing you have to keep pushing forward spending money to to train and recipe test
and to get ready to open and when you open you open and at that point it's Again, now the focus is like I got to move away from all that negative I go back to being positive and I gotta Worry about the reviews, but I can't worry too much about the reviews.
It's it's all like a I think a big head game When are you happiest?
When am I happiest?
Um When i'm here i'm happiest when um I've Created a great experience for for a guest or an employee An employee that you know will say Thank you for cooking next to me Or i'm really excited.
I got to work on that today or that was a great event Whatever it is, like getting getting that interaction Or server coming over and saying so I love waiting on your friends or I loved waiting on that table.
Um I think those things certainly make me happy and I think obviously the instant gratification of somebody saying wow, that was the best Blah, blah, blah or I gotta tell you, you know, this is my fourth visit here and each time it gets better I mean something something like that uh, and then I think
when i'm not here it's when i'm Able to kind of just turn off and Be with my family and and not Have this constant hamster wheel running in the back of my mind I think that's a great place to leave it.
Thank you so much. Thank you taking the time.
My pleasure. Thank you Hey guys, this is uh shane again just a few more things before we wrap up You can find show notes at fernumstreetblog .com slash podcast.
That's f -a -r n -a -m s -t -r -e -e -t B -l -o -g dot com slash podcast You can also find information there on how to get a transcript And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food Go to fernumstreetblog .com slash newsletter This is all the good stuff.
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