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When the stakes are high and your communication counts the most, get present, know your audience, and avoid allowing perfection to get in the way of progress.
I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I am very excited and honored to speak with Jen Psaki.
Jen is an American television political analyst and former government official.
She worked in both the Obama and Biden administration and served as President Biden's press secretary.
She is the author of the recently released Say More, Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World.
And she hosts Inside with Jen Psaki at MSNBC.
Jen, I am really looking forward to our chat today.
It is always exciting for me to learn from someone who is successfully practicing the things that we teach in our strategic communication classes.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart.
Thank you for having me.
And you're quoted in my book, so it's a thrill to be here.
Excellent. Yes. Shall we get started?
Yes, let's do it. Well, you have quite the history as a communicator.
You've presented to and had conversations with world leaders, journalists, actors, and many other audiences.
Are there any fundamental principles that guide your communication, regardless of if you're answering questions, taking questions, or explaining things?
I would say two guides.
One is do your homework.
I'm not just saying that to you because you're a professor, but the more you know about the person you're interviewing or the person who is interviewing you, the better you're going to perform.
The second piece, I would say, is listen, which is an undervalued part of communicating.
And I remember when I started my job at MSNBC, one of my bosses here, Greg Cordick, said to me, no one at home knows your plan.
And what he means by that is if you're interviewing someone and they say something incredibly interesting, don't just go to question six, follow up on that.
And that is true whether you are interviewing somebody or whether you are communicating proactively yourself.
Yeah, this notion of knowing your audience and listening, I think, are super critical.
Do you invoke any skills when you're listening?
So, for example, I try to paraphrase or at least think about how I would paraphrase to help me listen.
Is there anything that helps you focus on your listening?
I note from doing this now for a while that I remember a couple of words or phrases that the person has said.
And I think of one that I might want to follow up on, either because I'm summarizing, maybe it's the end of a discussion, or because it's something someone said and I'm answering a question.
I think about it that way.
I'm listening to them, but the way I'm taking it in is two or three phrases of what might be a longer answer or a longer question.
So, you're giving yourself something to focus on and that's what helps listen more deeply.
And the same thing I think with paraphrasing.
When you listen to paraphrase and when you listen for certain words, it really helps.
So, in your book, you write and I quote, the three principles of strategic communication are identify the audience, use what you know to figure out how to engage them.
And lower barriers to that engagement.
I'd like to have you speak about what you mean by engagement and what are some ways we can lower those barriers to get engagement.
The goal of communicating is to crack the door open so somebody wants to hear more from you.
It is not actually saying the most words or saying them the loudest.
The goal of communicating is to move forward your objective, whatever that might be.
Maybe it is getting a bill passed.
Maybe it's getting a candidate elected.
Maybe it is convincing your boss that you should get a raise.
And so, with that in mind, you need to think about how you're going to get your audience to listen to you more.
So, it sounds to me that reconnaissance reflection and research is needed to be done about your audience so you can understand where those differences are.
And then what I really heard you say is you have to tailor your message to the person or people that you're speaking to so you can get them engaged.
You don't just create one presentation and go deliver it to the world or have one answer in mind and that's how you always answer.
What I'm hearing you say is you really need to tailor.
Is that right? That's right.
And one of the things that I think there's often a misunderstanding of is that you have to speak like a PhD level expert about every topic you talk about.
I talk about in my book, The Mother -in -Law Test.
And my mother -in -law is a retired teacher, incredibly well -read, very smart, pays attention to the news.
She doesn't know the vernacular of Washington.
So, when people start talking like that, she kind of tunes it out.
Now, if she started talking in the language that tenured teachers talk in, I would have no clue what she's talking about.
If she was trying to explain to me something she's experienced as a substitute or in her years of teaching, sometimes there's this view that in order to get people to listen, you need to speak in fancier words.
And in more complicated language, and actually there's research on this, I believe, but actually it's quite the opposite in my experience.
It is speaking about things in a way that's accessible, so people think, maybe this relates to me and maybe I should tune in more.
Absolutely. We had Dan Pink on as a guest and he likes to say, we should all speak like a human, right?
And we all suffer from that curse of knowledge and that curse of passion.
And having some way to remind ourselves to speak the right language, literally the words.
You refer to it as the mother -in -law test.
I refer to it as the grandmother test.
My kids like to talk technology with my mother and it just totally goes over her head.
And yet they can, when reminded, translate in a way that she understands.
So that making engaging and tailoring your messages down to the linguistics of it matter a lot.
We spend a lot of time talking about how people can feel more comfortable and confident speaking in front of others.
I'd love to get your thoughts on preparation and practice and things you do and things that you have coached others to do to feel more comfortable and confident in their communication.
You certainly come off as very comfortable and confident.
I'm curious what you do for yourself and what you coach others to do.
I would first say research and by that, I mean reading broadly, the more I know about a particular issue, people's different views on it, the way we got here, the history of the issue, whether it's political or policy, the more well informed I feel.
So to me, the time spent preparing is really informing.
It is informing yourself so that you can come to a conversation as an informed participant.
You know, anyone who is doing an interview or the White House press secretary, you don't just go on television and just start a show, right?
Just like you don't just walk out to the White House podium and just do the briefing.
There's a lot of preparation that goes in and the reason the preparation is important and I always tell people this is because in the moment, you need to be present in the moment.
And that's what gives you the agility to be flexible in the moment and be able to more effectively communicate.
The prep work is what does that for you.
I often liken it to an athlete who does lots of drills and then so in the moment, you can do whatever is needed.
So for you, the confidence comes from preparation and you certainly got lots of reps and practice as well.
Can I dig a little deeper?
Do you do any reflection and review?
A lot of people are just so relieved to have their communication done that they move on.
Do you watch your tape?
Do you reflect and get feedback?
Yes. I was not this way in my 20s or early 30s and this is a piece of advice.
I always give people is seeking feedback is embarrassing.
I didn't do it when I was younger because I was worried I would almost be found out for not being an expert on everything and by the way, I'm still not an expert on everything.
But once I got over the hurdle, which actually for me was when I was at the State Department and I was a spokesperson there and I was not possibly going to be an expert on everything and you realized even the harshest feedback.
It's like, oh, that was the harshest feedback.
Okay, I can take it and it's useful and now I'm an aggressive seeker of feedback and sometimes I can be annoying about it.
My team, we do a lot of late night programming and stuff for MSNBC.
It can be midnight 1 a .m.
2 a .m. And I'm asking the producers, what did you think of that interview?
What could we ask differently and they're like, it's 2 in the morning.
Can we please? But feedback is so important and watching yourself, you know, for people starting off in doing television interviews and I mean this on kind of the other side of it than what I'm doing now.
The best thing you can do is watch yourself in the interview.
You are the best judge of yourself.
You can take tips from anywhere.
But do you seem robotic?
You probably are then, right?
Are you speaking not in a way that people speak?
Then you may not be and you're your best judge and watching yourself is embarrassing, but it is important.
I really appreciate you sharing that because I echo those thoughts.
I have trained myself to when I watch myself, I just imagine I'm watching somebody else and what would I tell that person and that really helps.
What I'd love people to take away from me.
You just said is even though it's hard to do, take the time to record and listen and watch yourself.
And then the other thing you said that you said very quickly is you actually in seeking feedback, you're very specific about the feedback you're asking for.
It's not just how do I do, it's what can I do differently next time to make it better?
And that's a very different question that I think leads to more concise and clear feedback.
That is true. I mean, the other thing I found that I've tried to do is because now I've somehow been a boss for many, many, many years and many different iterations is it can be.
Seeking feedback from somebody who's your superior is easier in some ways, right?
They'll give you feedback and it's useful or not.
Seeking feedback from people who work for you.
You have to create an environment where it's comfortable.
So I often will say that was not the best interview I did or hey, guys, that was not the best briefing I've ever done.
Here's what I think I could have done better.
What do you guys think?
You create a forum so that people are comfortable, which I have found people are more willing to then offer it.
If you've already, you know, critiqued yourself.
That's right. You show your open and you give them some direction and actually it sounds like you anchor them to on what they can say.
I'd like to talk about question answering something you have certainly made a career of doing.
What advice do you have to help people better answer questions, especially when they might be hot and spicy questions, not the easy softballs?
Two pieces of advice I learned and they may be specific to my experience.
One, sometimes this media training advice is given and I think it's the worst media training advice ever, which is answer the question you want to answer.
I understand the idea there.
The problem is your overall objective as we've been talking about is to relate and connect with the audience.
And if somebody is asking you about what do you think about the future of our democracy and you talk about roads and bridges and the importance of infrastructure, the audience is like, what just happened?
I don't know what just happened.
Right. And so I think that's bad advice.
What I would say, though, is that you also don't have to accept the premise of every question.
And I experience this as the White House press secretary when I've experienced it since then where people will say, well, isn't it just an absolute disaster?
What's happening in this political race?
And it's like, well, let's just start here.
I don't agree with you on that front.
It's perfectly fine to say that.
And here's why. You don't have to say, well, everything's not a disaster, you know, you don't have to accept the premise.
You know, the other thing I would say is if it's a particularly spicy line of questioning, you look for a thread to pull in the question that may not make the question valid.
That sounds like a little bit of a malicious trick.
It's not right. What it's meant to do is, you know, I talk about this a little bit in the book about people who in the White House briefing room would raise questions.
From a straw man perspective, right?
Everybody's saying this.
Well, who is everybody?
It matters contextually and virtually any aspect of life.
Right? Is everybody a person you met on the street?
Well, their voice matters doesn't matter as much as 10 senators, if we're talking about a bill passing.
Is everybody your friend?
So there are also things you can learn by how people ask questions.
So you can say not in an aggressive way, but let me better understand what you're trying to get at here.
First of all, who is everybody?
Let's start there, which became a cycle of things that was often used in the White House briefing room and often could be untangled.
What I really like about that answer is we don't have to take the question at face value.
Many of us can feel like I have to answer that question, when in fact, you can interrogate the question or ask for clarification on the question.
But I do agree with your advice that it's not our job to turn the question to be the question we wanted, because that feels disingenuous and distracting.
But taking time to really reflect on the question and in some ways I think that bolsters your credibility, because you're saying I really want to answer the real question there, but I need some clarification and I want to make sure that the question is a fair and honest one.
I appreciate that. I recently had the pleasure of interviewing your friend and former colleague Susan Rice, and I shared with her that my favorite song from the musical Hamilton is The Room Where It Happens.
Like Susan, you have definitely been in many of those rooms.
So I'd like to ask you the same question I posed to her, which is, what insights can you provide into how to best negotiate in high stakes situations?
Negotiation can be really hard for people.
Regardless of events, where do we go to dinner with our partner or how do I get a raise with my boss?
How do you negotiate better?
You know, I'm going to take this question quite literally because I worked at the State Department and traveled around the world with Ben, Secretary of State John Kerry.
And Susan Rice, of course, has had many of these experiences as well.
And literal diplomacy does teach you a lot about negotiating.
And what I learned from then Secretary Kerry is one, he is an eternal optimist, meaning he always felt there was a possibility of finding common ground.
And often he would sit down with leaders who there were significant disagreements on.
You know, at the time when I was working for him, we was not quite as bad with Russia as it is today, but there were significant disagreements with Russia.
He would say, look, I know we disagree on a great deal.
Here's where I think we might have a common view.
So let's start there, right?
He was also tireless.
I mean, he would spend hours and relationship -building was also a big part of it with him.
You know, he also was somebody who never let the perfect be the enemy of the progress.
And this is the thing that's important to remember in negotiating that's often lost when you have conversations about politics.
It's compromise is actually how you make progress, whether it is legislation in Washington or it's diplomatic negotiations.
It's never perfect because perfect would mean one side gets 100 percent of what they want.
That's not how kind of negotiation works.
So you have to decide where your lines are.
But I think what I learned from him are optimism, tirelessness, seeking common ground, even when you have many areas of disagreement.
And that is applicable, even when it's not as high stakes as negotiating with Russians, for example.
But, you know, a lot of that has stuck with me.
I think going in optimistically that there is a solution or there is a way to do it and being tireless and not giving up make a lot of sense.
Don't allow perfect to be the enemy of progress.
I think that's good advice in so many communication situations.
Well, Jen, before we end, I like to ask everybody a similar set of questions.
The first one I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking across people for a long time now.
Are you up for that?
Sure. So given what you do for a living, I'm curious.
What's the question I should have asked you that I didn't ask and then answer your own question?
I guess what did I miss now when I talk about communications?
I think about who my audience is of that and my audience is the version of me 20 years ago.
So maybe what do you wish you would have known 20 years ago?
I wish I would have known about the value of feedback and I had a lot of missed opportunities in seeking feedback and probably becoming better at what I did.
I worked on the Obama campaign with some of the best communicators and strategists out there and I was so fearful of being exposed as not being up to the job.
I was doing that. I didn't ask for feedback and it's a huge loss and so I wish I would have known that earlier and probably gone to Seymour College.
Professors during office hours.
There's all sorts of ways that supplies.
Well as somebody who teaches at a university that last part is absolutely important.
But so is the first part, feedback and seeking feedback and I would agree if I reflect on myself back then getting outside of my own head and taking in what others see and think about what I'm doing in the world would have been helpful.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
There's a number of people I admire out there as communicators.
I'm going to point to one who's been on my mind lately.
Jake Sylvan who's the National Security Advisor.
I used to ask him to come to the briefing when I was the White House press secretary for a range of reasons including he was living and breathing national security issues and who could speak to it better.
What I admire about the way he communicates is he finds a way to talk about very complex issues in a way that is direct and pretty accessible for the complexity of it.
And I've been thinking about him because he got a little emotional in the briefing room the other day when he was talking about the return of the hostages who were held by the Russian government and he got a little emotional.
And you know, I think you don't always let yourself do that when you're a prominent public figure.
But I also think in particular moments that can help you connect and it's hard to communicate effectively about policy issues.
It's very it's harder than than communicating about politics or other things.
So he's on my mind of good communicators.
That notion of making complex ideas accessible I think is a really important skill and a hard one to develop and allowing yourself to be human and share emotions.
Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Well, I think it's knowing your audience and who you're talking to.
It's key. Do they agree with you?
Do they not? What's their level of knowledge about what you're about to talk to them about?
There's a couple of questions about knowing your audience and really identifying that that is pivotal.
Research is a part of that.
It's knowing your audience, but it's also becoming as much of an expert without being an expert.
I have a PhD in nothing, right?
But I try to know as much as I can about any issue I'm talking about because it makes you more agile.
And the third thing is it depends.
I say in my book Lower the Barrier for Engagement, which is very important, but I also think it is being present in the moment which makes you a better communicator because you are present, right?
In whatever people are asking you, whatever it is, you're telling them.
And in a world where people are always waiting to say the thing they want to say, right?
And they're not always listening.
It's a skill set that I think is undervalued.
Certainly, absolutely.
Being present is critical.
Doing your research so you understand the topic, the context, and most importantly, the audience in terms of their knowledge, attitudes, resistance points, really critical.
Jen, this has been a true pleasure to be able to speak with somebody who has lived in the challenging moments of communication and done so successfully.
And then to take time to help people improve their communication.
I greatly appreciate that.
And the ideas in your new book and the way you role model both on your TV show and in your past work.
Super helpful. Thank you for your time.
Thank you so much. And thanks for everything you do to make people more effective communicators.
I really appreciate being here with you today.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart the podcast.
To learn more about communication, politics, and communicating effectively under pressure.
Please listen to episode 22 with David Demarest and episode 155 with Susan Rice.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Brian Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder with thanks to podium podcast company.
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