First I was gutted and then I felt more frustrated like I can't believe I did that.
I'm so dumb. I am Angela Duckworth.
I'm Mike Mon. And you're listening to those stupid questions.
Today on the show, is it better to regret something you've done or something you haven't done?
Mike, if it's a cry for help, let us know.
Otherwise, cool. Angela, we have a fascinating question today and I think it's even more memorable because of how the listener frames the question.
I'm all ears. So Eric wrote in asking about regret and he did so by invoking a song called Sweatloaf.
Which is sung by a group called the Butthole Surfers.
I've heard of the Butthole Surfers but I haven't heard of Sweatloaf.
No, I think they're famous, aren't they?
Okay, well, I'd never heard of that.
They were kind of before my time.
Anyway, I listened to this song in preparation for this podcast and let me just say it is not the music that is what I'm most interested in putting into my life.
I regret having listened to the song.
That said, it led to a great question.
So let me read Eric's question.
He says in the song Sweatloaf by the Butthole Surfers, it is positive that it's better to regret something you've done than something that you haven't done.
Is there evidence to support this claim?
So let me ask you, before we begin, if you were forced to make a binary choice, which side would you side on?
Better to regret something you've done or something you haven't done?
I personally feel more regret over things that I have done and I felt turned out badly than things that I haven't done and coulda woulda shoulda made the world or my life better.
Really? That is shocking to me.
What, you're the opposite?
I feel like most people regret the things that they didn't do more than the things that they did.
Especially because there's no counterfactual.
You can't go back and fix it.
There's always a counterfactual.
The counterfactual, in a sense, is the road not taken or the road's not taken?
I think there is an interesting question about whether they're easier to dream up for regrets of inaction versus grettes of action.
I think for sure. If I did something, then I just dream of maybe not having yelled that thing or said that whatever thing that I regret or gone to that place.
If I didn't do it, then I think of the 4,000 scenarios.
I guess what I would say, I think it's probably a matter of scale because if you did something so egregious, then of course you're going to regret that more than things that you didn't do.
But if it's outside of something incredibly egregious and I'm thinking the order of felonies, I think that most people...
Federal crimes. Yes. Not local and state crimes.
High crimes and misdemeanors, as they say.
Outside of something like that, I would imagine that most people fall on the side of a really regret not having done that, not having been there for this person, not having said this thing before it was too late, something like that.
I mean, I answered the question as an end of one human being, but I do want to say, you're right.
Actually, the data are pretty clear.
When you survey people and you just pose the simple straightforward question, then I'm going to steal the phrasing for the way I asked this question from a 1998 psychological review paper by Tom Gillovich Danny Coniman and Victoria Houston Medvek.
The paper is called Variety's Vagrette, a debate and partial resolution.
It's on this very topic.
And the way they studied it is as straightforward as can be.
They asked people, and I quote, half of the people in study one were asked to think of their single biggest regret of action and in action from the past week.
And half in this study were asked to do the same for the biggest regrets of their entire lives.
But in other words, the way to study a threat is usually just to ask people, hey, tell me about something that you did that you regretted something you didn't do.
That's enough to just depress you.
What's your biggest regret of your entire life?
Okay, have a great day. I know.
I'm glad it wasn't in this study.
Okay, so do you want to answer it?
Do you want to share? No, I want you to go first.
Okay. But I'm going to be kind and I'm going to let you either choose a regret of action or in action.
And I'm also going to let you choose last week, Mike, or the outlet your whole life.
So pick your poison. Good.
Gracious. As much as I feel a kinship with all of our listeners, maybe I'm not quite to the point of sharing my biggest regret of my entire life on this show.
I also don't even know how I would define that.
I think if I could talk about a regret, a reason regret I have, which is funny because you and I recently did a podcast episode on why people fall for scams fast forward a few weeks and I fell for a scam.
Oh, do tell. And I'm so dumb and I do regret, but I don't regret what led to it.
So I'm on Instagram and I get a message from this individual who I don't know well.
And now they know exactly who they are because they message you on Instagram.
You're going to regret saying this, Mike.
I think I'm okay with it.
There's no animosity, but no love loss.
Oh, wow. Okay. It's a somewhat, you know, older person who we had but it has in a variety of situations, but have a cordial, but standoffish relationship.
This person sent me a DM and it wasn't actually them, but they sent a DM saying, hey, lost my job starting this clothing business.
Can I add you to my whatever clothing brand?
And I don't really write back and then they message me again and again and again.
So just sort of like a child, you know, child just pecs you to death.
Yeah. I felt like I was being pecked to death.
So finally I write back and I said, hey, you know, I'm happy to be helpful.
Please be respectful and don't message me every few hours and how can I help?
And then say, well, I need to send you this link and I'll sign you up to follow the clothing brand data.
And it's also tracking that this guy didn't know how social media works.
And I broke back and I said, listen, like I can follow your brand or your brand can follow me and I can comment and I can even share it.
But that's not how social media works.
And this is the other thing when I say things I didn't mean to when I treat people poorly, which I try never to do.
It's always because I'm in a rush.
Yes. I'm trying to do something that I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to do something that I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to do something that I'm trying to do.
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They post these amazing things.
I am a crypto influencer and they post this yellow Lamborghini.
Oh, God. With things saying like 2023 has been faithful to me.
And early congratulations to me.
And I just made all this money on my fifth one in a roll.
Not fifth in a row. So all these grammatical errors.
Everyone knows this not me.
So I have this major regret.
I'm dumb. I follow this thing.
I fell into this scam. How do they benefit?
How do they make money off of this?
I have no idea what they get out of this other than wreaking havoc in my life.
But here's what I learned through this bad decision.
Is I had over 300 phone calls and text messages immediately.
I mean, it's nine at night.
And I am getting blasted by all these people who are just immediately.
You got hacked. You got hacked.
How can I help? Oh, they all knew because they were like this is no.
No, not they all. Oh. I have these 300 people who know me and are like, this is not you.
Then I have a much broader group.
Long story short, I finally get the Instagram account back through heroic efforts of Simpty or highly placed friends.
And I post like, hey, that wasn't me.
I'm so sorry. Then I find out there's this large middle group who's like, yeah, it didn't seem like you.
But I was like, okay. I mean, maybe that's weird.
Not his style. But perhaps he's on drugs all of a sudden.
And I thought, okay, come on guys.
Like be a little. Anyway, not that I was offended by that group.
But I thought you don't know me.
Right. It was like a touring test.
They didn't know the real mic.
Well, and here's what I found out though.
There was a group of about 75 people who I now know are my ride or dies.
They were there no matter what.
They're like, you know what, if you just bought a yellow Lamborghini and you want to throw it in everybody's face and talk about 2023 has been faithful to you.
They're good for you, man.
We're here for you no matter what.
I'm in the Lamborghini with you, Mike.
Yeah. And I just thought, wow.
And thank you also what?
Do you not know me at all?
But also what a beautiful thing to know.
Loyalty. You have some ride or dies.
These are your loyal friends who don't know you.
Yeah. No, don't know me at all.
It was fun. Even my aunt, my aunt who's, you know, mid 70s and the sweetest human on the lover dearly, she says to me after.
It didn't seem like you, but I thought, well, if Mike suddenly made all this money on crypto and body yellow Lamborghini, then I'm very happy for you.
I just want you to be happy, Mike.
Still to come on, no stupid questions.
Angela and Mike talk about how to avoid regret.
I think you've got it more than you would imagine.
Now, back to Angela and Mike's conversation about regressive action and regressive inaction.
I will say this about regret of inaction.
Those take time. I don't know how to talk about a regret of inaction within a week because I feel like, and you'll have to tell me where the research lands on this, but I feel like unless something immediately just happened.
So, you know, I missed out on this opportunity to tell someone I loved them or to apologize for something in the last week.
Most regressive inaction, I feel like, build over time.
And it's not until looking back that I can say, wow, I wish I had treated my body differently because now I can't walk.
I wish that I had spent more time with my children because now we're estranged.
And therefore, it was harder for me to think of anything, oh, I regret not doing that in the last week.
Am I off? This is exactly what Tom Gilevich and Victoria Houston Medvek and Danny Coniman were talking about in this 1998 paper.
This now is called an adversarial collaboration.
So, Danny Coniman later coined the term of adversarial collaboration when two scientists are head to head in complete disagreement about an issue like, you know, which is more painful or a regret of action versus regret of inaction.
And so, what they did, now again, decades ago, is they collaborated on some research studies to settle the debate.
And often what happens in these adversarial collaborations is actually what they found in 1998, which is in a sense both were right and both were wrong.
It's such a nice way to handle it.
Oh, we're all right. We're all wrong.
Look at us. It's all good.
So, here is what Gilevich and Medvek on one side were arguing.
They argued that, quote, people regret actions more in the short term and in actions more in the long run because the sting of regrettable action diminishes relatively quickly.
Whereas the pain of regrettable inaction lingers longer.
And that's what you said.
See, I think this is why I was so surprised when you said that you regret action more because, I mean, in their words, that tends to diminish over time.
Well, okay, but let me give you the coniman side.
Oh, okay, okay. Because of course you're going to side with Danny.
And by the way, I wasn't talking about like all of humanity.
Whenever scientists say things like people generally regret actions more here, the thing to remember is that that never applies to everyone.
Yes. Okay, but here's what Danny Coniman said.
Coniman disagreed arguing that people's long-term regrets of inaction are largely wistful and therefore not terribly troublesome.
So on one side of the debate, the idea is that you've got this thing that you didn't do or a threat of inaction or a threat of omission, like what it could have should have.
And then you've got coniman on the other side that says, like, yeah, you know, these are just wistful.
They're not the strong regrets that we have.
And so what they did was the simplest possible set of studies.
You know, I asked you about a regret you told me about for simplicity, say the regret of clicking on this link and making an impulsive decision that upon reflection, maybe you wouldn't have made.
If that's true, let me just ask you some of the questions that in this 1998 paper, they had actually a checklist.
When you realize that your account had been hacked and you had made a stupid decision, to what extent do you feel angry, ashamed, disgusted, embarrassed, frustrated, guilty, and irritated.
I'll just give you the whole list at once.
But, you know, how much do those emotions feel like, yeah, that's how I felt.
So overall, I think my first reaction was just I felt sort of gutted because I was mostly worried, what if I lose my journal for the last decade.
Right. Right. Panic. Which I realized I probably should have printed out or had some, I don't know how to have a backup.
I'm sure there's a way. But first I was gutted and then I felt on the level of like angry.
I wasn't a 10 at all, but I was just more frustrated.
Like I can't believe I did that.
I'm so dumb. I mean, I immediately called my sister and she is younger and smarter in technology in terms of how to use social media.
So she's talking me through it.
And while I'm on the phone with her, I am getting all of these text messages and phone calls and every new one that comes in.
I'm sort of laughing, but in a very embarrassed state, like, gosh darn it.
Every single person knows.
Almost blushing, right?
Were you blushing? Yes.
It was sort of this anger frustration embarrassment.
And I need to immediately go into action to fix this.
I think often when we do something, we regret it's, okay, how do I fix this immediately?
And then when I realized I couldn't, it was sort of this.
I realized we're talking about an Instagram account.
So let's just put this in context with the word, but a bit of despair where you just kind of sit back and say, okay, I made a mistake.
I tried to fix it. Everything I'm doing isn't working.
And so I now need to accept the consequences.
I need to give this some time.
And I need to call in some other people to help fix this.
And weirdly, as we're talking through this, it feels like this is actually how most regressive action happened.
And if it's not fixable in the moment, then you just kind of sit back and say, okay, sometimes regressive action take time to heal.
Okay, so let me before you make general statements about, you know, the nature of regret for all human beings.
Let me. I have just defined it.
Yeah, but you haven't even finished the experiment.
Oh, Danny Convin would not be happy if you only answered the questions that Gilevich and Medvek put into the study.
So he gets his say, he wants you, Mike, thinking about that moment when you clicked on the erroneous link to what extent did you feel the following wistful emotions?
So did you feel contemplative?
Did you feel nostalgic?
Did you feel sentimental?
Did you feel literally wistful?
Any of those ring true? Sometimes you talk about your first response and second response.
I think the emotions Danny talks about came in my second response, which is one side sort of given way to the fact that maybe I had lost this thing.
Yeah, maybe my actions had resulted in a permanent loss of what I'll just call my journal.
Then I did become somewhat nostalgic and contemplative because I was thinking through.
Okay, there are all these memories, all these things that I've written, all these moments in my life that I've documented.
But then you probably regretted the inaction of saving your Instagram account, not the action of clicking on the fraud link.
Right, I regretted the inaction of not having put on two factor authentication.
Oh, everybody everybody just stop what you're doing and put two factor authentication on all the things you have been too lazy to put two factor authentication on.
I know and you know what the hackers did what they immediately put on two factor authentication and they had the investigator.
So I can't give that again.
God, so they did a great job.
So look, this is what the conclusion of this adversarial collaboration on regret of action and inaction was I quote from their joint paper.
The adverse consequences of inaction often take longer to manifest themselves than the adverse consequences of actions.
Unquote and that matches your experience Mike, right?
So first you had this this kind of suite of hot emotions from what you did and then you know maybe the consequences of the inaction of never saving your Instagram in the first place that you know has a different time course.
So right there you've got some of the greatest minds and social science nodding and agreement to you, but let me continue to the very crux of what they were really in debate about.
So again, to quote, Gilevich and Medvek, and this is them writing about themselves in the third person, Gilevich and Medvek agree that like ice cream.
Regret comes in different flavors and that many regrets of inaction are more wistful and therefore less bothersome than their original research on the subject implied.
That's them conceding the point by the way they're like, yeah, Kahneman sort of showed us something right that many regrets of inaction are more wistful and less bothersome than say regrets of action.
But they continue they still believe however that long term regrets of inaction are truly painful for many individuals and that the pain centers around the feelings of despair documented in the research reported here and just one more thing before I stopped quoting them like the Bible here to use a combat metaphor in action regrets are more troublesome in the long
term because they tend to be the last ones still standing.
Yeah, does that ring true to you the idea that you know you have these like hot emotions and by the way, as you know Mike, I feel like emotions are always signals and like a smoke alarm, you know, it can sometimes be.
Oh, don't worry there isn't actually a fire, but like a smoke alarm, you know, it has a purpose so when you experience the emotion of regret, I think you should ask yourself what is the signal what did I do wrong and what did I maybe not do that I should have done and so the whole underlying theme of regret is it's a signal that you should maybe correct things in some way
you either need to kind of fix a mistake you made or take an action that you omitted.
I think that rings true and I kind of want to answer the question for myself, but let me just say the thing that leaps to mine right I mean, I think it's only fair that you also have to share your regrets.
The reason I was hesitating is like it's like not too hard to follow, but the anticipated regret of it has actually changed my life in a way that I think is good so that's massively complicated.
Let me just tell you that I read a short story by Raymond Carver and it was called a small good thing have you heard of Rayma he's way cooler than the but whole surfers by the way.
Do you know who I'm talking about I'm so sorry I'm very excited to learn.
Okay so Raymond Carver died at age 50 but before he died he was one of the truly great American fiction writers and his genre was the short story I think he died of maybe lung cancer but he was a raging alcoholic he had actually a very tumultuous life but let me just tell you about the cautionary tale that a small good thing was for me.
In brief a small good thing is the story of a little boy who dies on his birthday gets hit by a hit and run driver I read this story I think I was in my I want to say my early 20s like I had a license to drive a car but I you know was was little insecure about my driving ability I read that story Mike and in that moment I said as soon as I don't have to drive a car.
I'm going to stop driving because I never want to be the driver who kills a small child who steps off a curb on their birthday and you know I couldn't have anticipated but then Uber was invented and whenever Uber came to Philadelphia I whatever that day was I should Google it that was the day I stopped driving I have not driven a car since it's got to be at least I think a decade
so here is a story that is a story of regret but it was the regret that I avoid.
I guess it was regret of action that I avoided by reading a Raymond Carver short story I actually have read that story and now remember I regret that you made me feel bad but I didn't know the Raymond car was so you didn't either do anything or not do anything you have just placed yourself in a point of total application of responsibility and that you will never have to
be in that situation I really seriously like I think about it more than you would imagine I really really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like
that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really like that I really really never want to have the regret that's
why I don't drive yeah I've never I knew you didn't drive you know I don't drive I have driven you many places you have we have ubered together.
All right so I want to ask listeners the question that I just asked you Mike tell me something you regret something you did something you didn't do tell us your name and where you're from record a voice memo and a quiet place yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada y
Right Fortune 100 CEOs.
I get a call from my boss and he said hey are you blonde and I said yes, yes, I am blonde anyway So I'm driving up to Park City meeting with my family in this park and they have not seen it and so we park I get out of my car My brother and his family get out of their car my brother mark turns around and just looks at me and then he says Mike If it's a cry for help let us know otherwise
cool Oh my gosh, this is the best thing to say and that was his whole reaction and I thought you know It's not a cry for help.
I do think it's absolutely a quarantine crisis, but I'll tell you what I learned would you learn nothing bad happened Yeah, it was so fun.
It was stupid. I look back at the pictures and I look ridiculous But I ended up moving to California that summer I did a house swap so I'm in Southern California.
I'm on the beach I have blonde hair and I think sometimes we also tend to Catastrophize what will happen if we do X or Y thing and so I guess what I would say an ending is take a little risk Try something bleach your hair bleach your hair platinum.
No failure is ever final click on that link click on the damn link No, okay, well don't whatever it is it'll be fine.
Oh gosh don't click on the link But take a risk if you've been wanting to do something.
You know what you're gonna regret if you don't try so go ahead and take a chance This episode of no stupid questions was produced by me Catherine Moncure with help from our production associate lyric about it And now here's a fact check of today's conversation Early in the conversation Angela says she can't remember the day Uber came to Philadelphia Uber launched
in Philadelphia on June 6th 2012 That's it for the fact check before we wrap today's show let's hear some of your thoughts about last week's episode on high expectations Hi, and it's QCrup as someone who wore then aggressively shed the label of gifted child I Subscribe to the philosophy that's absolutely okay to be average I'm currently a stand-up comic.
I'm good at what I do and somehow still blissfully happy not being kept at heart or mark Marin and the heavy heavy weight of the expectation that comes with that.
I don't have a fandom If you have ever heard of me in advance of my shows it's better that way so I can form my own relationship with audiences and Pleasantly surprised them with my material I'm just a firm believer that if everybody's extraordinary nobody's extraordinary But you can be unique in your own way and happy with that Hi there.
This is Betsy from the Netherlands my wife and I moved Over here about seven years ago and one of the things that we noticed almost immediately was the Dutch don't glorify Busy like we used to do in America and I feel like some of the is it okay to be mediocre Has a lot to do with the company you keep so we work hard and we have a nice life But there is not that drive to constantly
achieve and to excel and we're not seeing as lazy We're seen as enjoying life That was respectively Dante Hale and Betsy Laskowski Thanks so much to them and to everyone who sent us their thoughts and remember we'd still have to hear about something you regret Send a voice memo to NSQ at Freakonomics.com Let us know your name and whether you'd like to remain anonymous
you might hear your voice on the show Coming up next week on those stupid questions Angela and Mike discussed why we find beauty in nature People are always like oh go toward the mountains and I just want to punch them in the face a little bit That's next week on those stupid questions No stupid questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network Which also includes
Freakonomics Radio people I mostly admire and the economics of everyday things all our shows are Produced by Stitcher and Redbud Radio this episode was mixed by Elnora Osborne and we had research helped from Daniel Morth Rabson our senior producers Rebecca Lee Douglas our theme song was composed by Luis Guerra You can follow us on Twitter at NSQ underscore show
and on Facebook at NSQ show if you have a question for a future episode Please email it to NSQ at Freakonomics.com to learn more or to read episode transcripts visit Freakonomics.com slash NSQ thanks for listening sweat loaf or meatloaf The Freakonomics Radio Network the hidden side of everything Stitcher
