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This is Fresh Air.
I'm David Bianculli.
Now here's a group which has only experienced moderate success here in Britain but which has had several big hits in the States.
Singing For You, we present The Zombies.
For you, my love.
Americans were right about the zombies whose first record, the still spooky She's Not There, made it all the way to number two on the Billboard pop chart in 1964.
In England, the same single topped out at number 12.
Five years later.
By the time the group scored its biggest hit with She's Not There, the zombies already had broken up.
But they left their mark.
The zombies were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2019, and they're now the subject of a new documentary titled Hung Up on a Dream, directed by Robert Schwartzman.
Terry Gross spoke with the lead singer of the zombies, Colin Blundstone, in 1998, when a box set also titled Hung Up on a Dream had just been released.
It contains singles, rare and unreleased tracks, and appearances on BBC Radio.
Here's the Zombies' first single.
Well, no one told me about the way she lied.
Well, no one told me about how many people cried.
But it's too late to say you're sorry.
How would I know?
Why should I care?
Please don't bother trying to find her.
She's not there.
Well, let me tell you about the way she looked, the way she had tanned, the color of her hair.
Her voice was soft and cool.
Her eyes were clear and bright.
But she's not there.
Told me about her.
What could i do?
Well, no one told me about her, though they all knew.
But it's too late to say you're sorry.
How would i know?
Why should i care?
Please don't bother trying to find her.
She's not there.
Colin Blenstone, welcome to Fresh Air.
Terry, thank you very much.
You got to record this song after the Zombies won a contest in, I guess, St.
Albans, where you were from.
And you won first prize, and the first prize was an audition with Decca Records.
Tell me about the contest.
The competition was held in Watford Town Hall, which is about eight miles away from St.
Albans, where we all went to school.
And Watford Town Hall was quite a big venue for us.
It held about 2,000 people.
And because there were 10 bands on every night, they all had their supporters.
And it was absolutely packed.
And it was a bit like a football crowd.
You know, everybody had banners and bells and rattles.
And it was quite a sort of a wild place to play.
And we won our heat.
I think there were sort of 10 weeks of 10 bands.
And the winner got through to the final.
And then we won the final.
It was a magical evening.
I'll never forget it.
What did you sing in the final competition?
Oh, I was hoping you weren't going to ask me that.
We sang a Beatles song, You Can't Do That.
Oh.
You know?
I've got something to say that might cause you pain.
Do you remember that one?
Absolutely.
I like that song a lot.
Yeah, I do too.
And we sang Summertime, which went on our first album.
And we did it as a sort of a jazz waltz.
It was very jazzy.
And we sang a couple of other songs, and I can't remember what they were.
Why was the group named The Zombies?
Well, quite simply, because we'd been for the first few weeks of our career together.
This was just when we were at school.
I think to start off with, we were the Mustangs.
And we found that there are a million bands called the Mustangs.
And then we were the Sundowners and we had the same problem.
And Paul Arnold, who was our original bass player.
There was only one change in the band, and this is while we were still at school.
He came up with the idea of The Zombies and I think we all thought that no one else would be crazy enough to call a band The Zombies.
And so it really, I think that in a way it was an act of desperation.
We were just trying to find something that no one else would have thought of.
So we ended up as The Zombies.
What do you think defined The Zombies' sound?
Well, I think a lot of the sound really comes from the writers.
We had two unique writers in the band and very prolific writers as well.
And I think possibly, especially Rod Argent, his songs were, I think...
Well, truly wonderful.
I think they were brilliant songs.
And he also was a brilliant keyboard player.
So you've got these great keyboard breaks that he would keep putting into songs.
Also, he was a very accomplished musician, even at an early age.
He understood a lot about music, which certainly he was in a different league to me.
So a lot of our chord progressions and The bass notes we put on the bottom of chords were quite unusual and he also understood vocal harmonies because he was in the cathedral choir until he was about 17 or 18 and if we played a gig on a Sunday night we'd have to go and pick him up at the back of the cathedral where he'd been singing in whatever the thing had been at the cathedral and he'd have to be taking off all his church clothes and getting into his rock and roll gear and then we'd go off to the rock and roll gig.
So I think our harmonies helped to make things a bit different as well.
I think there were lots of things that contributed towards it.
But the songwriting and the vocal harmonies.
And then maybe there's a little bit of the interplay between Rod's writing and my voice.
I mean, both of them, Chris White and Rod Argent, used to write songs for my voice.
What were the qualities of your voice that you think they wrote for?
Well, especially for those days, I sang in quite a high key, you know, compared with lots of other singers.
Nowadays, lots of people do that.
But I think that was one of the things.
I think I tend to sing sad songs better than happy-go-lucky songs.
So often songs would have a sort of a haunting quality about them.
She's Not There is probably a good example.
I think they would look for that.
Songs in minor keys perhaps would be another thing they would look for.
So lots of little things all added up to the zombie sound.
Yeah, a lot of the songs you sang had more to do with vulnerability than showing how strong you were.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, that's me.
Let's hear another one of the zombies' big hits.
And this is Tell Her No.
Tell us something about the song or the session.
I think as I remember, we'd been touring with Dionne Warwick, who you would call Dionne Warwick.
And through that, we'd got very interested in Burt Bacharach songs.
And I have a feeling that Rod Argent, who wrote this song, was going through a period of being influenced a lot by Burt Bacharach.
With regards to the session...
We would record probably three or four, maybe five backing tracks in an evening at Decca recording studios.
And then we would put vocals on and it would probably be 12 o'clock or one o'clock at night before I got around to singing.
And I always remember this session because I was fast asleep when they finished and they woke me up to sing.
Tell Her No.
And in fact there's a mumbled line in the middle of Teller.
No, because I was half asleep when I was singing it.
And I said, listen, guys, I better just do that again because there's this mumbled line.
And they said, oh, no, no, that's fine.
Don't worry about that.
And I've heard stories of people in bands who have been trying to copy our version of Teller No, and they've been desperately trying to work out what the lyric is.
And after 15 or 30 years or whatever it is, I have to tell them well, you shouldn't have bothered, because it's just a mumble.
So there is no lyric there, really.
Where is the mumble in the song?
I'll leave it to you to find out, because I can't remember off the top of my head.
Oh, come on.
No, really, I can't remember.
It's something like, you play the song, and then I'll have a think about it while you're playing.
Okay, why don't we play it, you listen in, and then you tell us which the line was.
Okay.
It's funny to hear this all the way from America.
And if she should tell you, come closer.
And if she tempts you with a charm.
Okay, that's all right.
That's fine.
Tell her no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Don't hurt me now, for her love belongs to me.
And if she should tell you I love you And if she tempts you with her charms Here it is.
That's it.
Did you hear it?
Yeah, so it's the part I was sort of... Yeah, go ahead.
It sort of sounds like don't love her love from your arms or something, but really it's... I always heard it as don't hurt me now from her arms, and I figured, well, I don't know what that means, but it's all right.
I get the gist of it.
Well, what it means is it was a rather sleepy zombie who was trying to do his best but was a little bit not with it.
He was amongst those not present.
I always loved your chorus of you know the tell her no's, with your whoa whoa, whoa's in it and all that.
Did you sing it the same way for each take or did it always come out different?
Well, it wasn't something that was specifically written.
It was, okay, Colin, now do a little bit of something here.
It probably would have been similar, but it wouldn't have been exactly the same.
What was it like to be in the United States and build as a British invasion band?
What did that mean to you?
Well, the surprise for me was the reaction.
I mean, I wasn't particularly aware of the fact that we were part of the British invasion.
I'm not sure if that term was used certainly to me at the time.
I mean, I know the expression now.
So I can't really say I reacted to that phrase when I was there.
But what was interesting to me was the enthusiasm and the huge numbers of the fans in America for all music.
I mean, things were a little bit more basic back here in the UK.
We would be traveling in the back of an old van There were very few freeways in this country.
We call them motorways.
So we would be travelling on country lanes, vast distances in a broken-down old van.
It wasn't terribly glamorous, really, except we were having fun.
We were 18 years old.
What did we care?
But then when we went to America, we were playing to huge audiences and very, very enthusiastic audiences that were screaming and screaming and uh, rushing the stage and tearing our clothes off, and it was all um, pretty exciting stuff, really very exciting.
Do your best to be honest with me about this.
What's it like when you're 19?
You're a young man, you're just getting started, you know, as as a man in the world and sexually and all that.
And here there's like you go from city to city and women are screaming and screaming over you.
I mean, this must really give you a sense of being something else, you know.
Very lucky, is the expression I was thinking of.
Well, I enjoyed it very much.
Definitely, it was wonderful.
I mean, how much did it go to your head?
Sometimes that type of stuff really informs people's personalities.
I don't think it did too much in our band but again, probably better if someone else judged it, because we sort of had periods of success and we had periods of not being so successful and we were brought down to earth with a big bump.
And also in the band, no one was allowed to get too carried away.
I mean we'd grown up together and anybody who got too carried away would be slapped into place pretty quickly.
It was very exciting and it was great fun, but we all still lived at home with our parents and we still lived in the little area that we'd grown up in and we weren't really allowed to get too carried away.
When you started performing, particularly when you came over to the States and started performing, did you get a lot of advice or guidance on what to wear, what kind of haircuts you should have, what kind of eyeglasses the guys in the band should wear, all that image type of stuff?
No, we didn't, actually.
And I think that image-wise, I think it was a weakness in the band.
I think we were together professionally for three years, although we were together for four years at school.
Towards the end of the three years I think we were getting the image thing a bit more sorted out, but it had just been a natural progression for us.
And I think that we needed help, I think, earlier on.
How could it be any different?
Our first record had been a huge hit record around the world and some of the guys had just left school and I don't know how much other bands thought about Image but we certainly didn't and I wish that some shrewd character had given us a bit of help there and then you just mentioned spectacles two of the guys wore very heavy rim spectacles and at a time when if you're in a teenage band of course you want to look fairly attractive for people and it wasn't very fashionable at the time for young men in rock bands to wear glasses.
And towards the middle or the end of our professional career, Paul Atkinson stopped wearing those heavy-rimmed glasses and wore contact lenses and he was a very good-looking lad and I think it might have helped us a little bit if he'd wore contact lenses from the beginning.
But just little things like that I think we could have looked into.
And I think also She's Not There is a very charismatic song.
It's eerie... almost could be a little bit sinister, and I think we could have worked on that.
Instead of which we came with a very jolly little tell-her-no number for our second record, which didn't seem to me to follow.
She's Not There very well, really.
In one article that I think was written in an American newspaper or magazine, an article that's quoted in the liner notes to the new Zombies box set.
The band was described as clean-cut quiet well-mannered, intelligent.
They behave like gentlemen.
Was that considered good or a liability at the time?
Well, it's funny.
To be so clean-cut in your image, yeah.
When you met people in the media, I think they quite liked it because we turned up on time.
You didn't insult them.
We didn't insult them.
We didn't spit.
But when you actually put that into an article, I think it can put people off.
People want rascals and rogues and naughty boys, you know.
Then do you know what he did?
Do you know what this guy did?
People love that you know.
But then they're not having to face it first hand.
So in a way, I think that it went against us a bit.
Mind you, I'm saying all this with hindsight.
I didn't realise it at the time.
We were just making it up as we went along.
Let's pause here and play something from the new Zombies box set.
And this is a previously unissued recording that you made, I think, at the BBC.
And it's a cover of Burt Bacharach's The Look of Love.
You had mentioned before that the band had toured with Dionne Warwick.
That's right.
The very first tour we ever did.
And we were fantastic Burt Bacharach fans.
I still am a big Burt Bacharach fan.
He just writes the most wonderful songs.
Were you thinking of Dionne Warwick when you sang this yourself?
No, because the version I'd heard was by Dusty Springfield and I think she had a hit in America with that version, but she didn't have a hit in the UK.
It's funny how that happens.
People can have hits with a wonderful version of a song in one country and it doesn't mean anything in another country.
Very strange.
And now you're hearing the sweet and swinging sound of the zombies one more time in The Look of Love written by Bert Bacharach.
The look of love is in your eyes, The look your heart can disguise.
The look Is saying so much more Than just words could ever say, And what my heart has heard When it takes my breath away.
I can hardly wait to hold you, Feel my arms around you.
How long I have waited, Waited just to love you.
Now that I have found you, You've got the look Of love is on your face, A look that time can't erase.
You're mine tonight.
Could this be just the start of so many nights like this?
Let's make a love that's fond and sealed with a kiss.
I can hardly wait to hold you.
Feel my arms around you.
How long I have waited.
I love you so.
Colin Blundstone spoke to Terry Gross in 1998.
After a break we'll continue their conversation and we'll remember director James Foley, who died last week at age 71.
His films include At Close Range, After Dark, My Sweet, and Glengarry Glen Ross.
I'm David Bianculli, and this is Fresh Air.
When she loved me, nothing in the world could touch her love.
And now the light of love has gone, can I return the joy she's dreaming of?
I don't know, I don't know.
But if it don't work out, if it don't work out, if it don't work out, If it don't work out, Will she still care for me the way she did before?
Will she turn around and tell me she don't love me anymore?
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Deadline puts it, there won't be a dry eye in the house.
Eleanor the Great, only in theaters September 26th.
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The very last hit that the Zombies had Time of the Season was from an album called Odyssey and Oracle.
It's an album that didn't sell well at all in the United States.
And the hit single Time of the Season, I think, was released long after the album had already kind of bombed.
What is the story behind why this record came out in the way that it did?
Well, I mean, it really intrigues me, because I sometimes think that records have a life of their own, because everything was against this record.
We recorded it for CBS Records in London.
They'd only just started up.
They were quite a small company in London.
They gave us a very limited budget.
I think it was £1,000, which even in those days was a very small budget for doing an album.
And there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm.
We'd had quite a few flop singles.
We'd just come back from a disastrous tour of the Far East.
And we went into the studio recorded this album and there really wasn't a great response in the UK.
I don't think in America they didn't want to release it at all.
But Al Cooper from Blood, Sweat and Tears was in London and he just bought a lot of albums, took them back to America and he wrote the sleeve notes on this album in America and he just felt that this album stood out from everything that he brought back from the UK.
So he alone is responsible for what happened with Time of the Season, because I think CBS had given up on this album.
But he said, listen...
This is a wonderful album.
You must release it.
When you think of how major record companies get behind some records or some acts and they put lots of money into promotion and marketing and probably the band have just come off a huge hit as well.
And so you know that something's going to happen with this record.
Time of the Season had no right to be a hit, but I'm very, very glad that it was a hit.
And even in the studio I tell this as a story against myself.
I didn't really like the song and I didn't want to sing it.
And it had been written more or less in the morning before we recorded it and I wasn't too sure of the exact melody.
And it's a Rod Argent song and he's very emphatic that when he writes a melody he wants it exactly as he wrote it.
And quite so.
I mean, I agree with him.
It should be like that.
And Rod and I had a set, too, in the studio.
It was in Studio 3 at Abbey Road.
And he wanted this song absolutely as he wrote it, and I kept making little mistakes.
And I said to him, Rod, listen, if you know how to sing it, you come in here and you sing it.
And he said to me, mind you, the language was a little bit richer, I hasten to add.
He said to me, Colin, you're the singer, you sing it.
And it went on from there.
It was quite a fiery moment.
But I mean, I'm really glad that he made me stand there and sing it.
I would be very upset if I hadn't done it.
Well, let's hear it.
This is The Zombies' Time of the Season.
It's the time of the season when love runs high.
In this time.
Give it to me easy and let me try, with pleasured hands, to take you in.
It's the time of the season for loving.
What's your name?
Who's your daddy?
Tell it to me slowly Tell you why I really want to know Is that time of the season for love?
So what was the condition of the band by the time this record became a big hit?
Well, Rod Argent and Chris White had been very successful as songwriters for the Zombies and for other artists as well.
And I think that had fired their enthusiasm and they knew they wanted to stay in the music business.
But for the other three, I mean, we were really struggling just financially because concerts were few and far between, our records weren't selling and we were, quite frankly, going broke.
And so it was getting more and more difficult for us.
On top of that, we had worked absolutely solidly for three years.
There were no sort of three weeks touring here and then six months off or something like that.
We worked solidly.
And just speaking personally, I think I was very, very tired and just a little bit disappointed with the way things had gone.
Remembering that we started off with a number one hit record, a gold record.
She's Not There and from there on in, we seemed to have gradually slipped down the hill of success, or however one explains it.
And so I think personally I was feeling very disappointed.
And I remember we were having a rehearsal Rod Argent and Chris White were sharing a flat and we were having a rehearsal there And Paul Atkinson said listen guys, I just think that's enough for me.
I think I need to move on and do something else.
And Rod said well listen, if one guy is going to leave, I think we should all perhaps get out and try new things.
And I said nothing.
I just kept my head down and thought, oh, my God, what's happening?
And I just went out for a long walk.
When Time of the Season came out, did everybody in the band think well, maybe we should actually stick together after all.
Well, unfortunately, the band had finished at least an hour, at least a year before Time of the Season was a hit.
And in that time, everybody was doing very different things.
And really, at the time, it felt impractical for us to get back together again.
Again, with the benefit of hindsight, I think it could have been done if everybody had wanted to do it.
Colin Blundstone, it's really just been a pleasure to talk with you.
I thank you very much for being with us.
Well, thank you, Terry.
Yeah, it's been fun.
Colin Blundstone speaking to Terry Gross in 1998.
He led the original zombie invasion as lead singer of the British group The Zombies, which had several hits in the 1960s.
A new documentary about the group, titled Hung Up on a Dream, has just been released.
Coming up, we remember filmmaker James Foley, who died last week at age 71.
His films include Glengarry Glen Ross, a David Mamet play currently being revived on Broadway.
This is Fresh Air.
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This is Fresh Air.
We're going to remember film director James Foley, who died last week at the age of 71 after a years-long struggle with brain cancer.
Foley started his career with the 1984 film Reckless, starring Aidan Quinn and Daryl Hannah.
He followed that with a 1986 film At Close Range, a moody neo-noir drama based on a true story about a murderous rural crime gang.
The film has gained a dedicated following since its release.
Christopher Walken plays Brad Whitewood Sr, the leader of the gang which specializes in the theft of expensive farm equipment.
He pulls his son Brad Jr., played by Sean Penn, into the gang.
But as he learns of an FBI investigation, Brad Sr begins murdering members of the gang he fears will cooperate with the police.
He kills his other son Tommy, and orders the murder of Brad Jr, who is wounded but survives the shooting.
In this scene, Brad Jr. is holding a gun and confronts his father.
A note to listeners, you will hear gunshots.
Is this the gun you used?
That's a nice looking gun.
Is this the gun you used to kill Tommy?
Tommy's dead, isn't he?
Don't talk to me about Tommy.
Is this the gun you used to kill Terry?
I never did nothing to Terry.
Whoa!
Whoa, wait!
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait!
Is this the gun you used on everybody, on me?
Is this the family gun, Dad?
Jesus.
Put that down.
I've seen you.
You're gonna die.
Come on.
I know one thing clearer than I've ever known anything in my entire life, except that I loved Terry before you killed her.
And that is that you're going to die.
You got the guts to kill me.
The soundtrack of At Close Range included the Madonna song Live to Tell.
The music video of that song, as well as two other of her videos, was directed by James Foley.
He also directed Madonna in the 1987 movie Who's That Girl?
Foley's other works include the film After Dark, My Sweet, adapted from a Jim Thompson novel, and The Chamber, adapted from a John Grisham novel.
For television.
Foley later directed 12 episodes of the first three seasons of the Netflix series House of Cards and also directed episodes of Twin Peaks, Hannibal and Billions.
In 1992, Terry Gross spoke with James Foley live on stage after a screening of his then-latest film, an adaptation of David Mamet's Pulitzer Prize-winning play Glengarry Glen Ross.
Mamet wrote the screenplay.
The play currently is being revived on Broadway, starring Bob Odenkirk, Kieran Culkin and Bill Burr.
But in Foley's 1992 movie the cast included Al Pacino, Jack Lemmon, Ed Harris, Alan Arkin and Alec Baldwin.
Here's a scene written for the film which doesn't appear in the stage play.
Baldwin plays a corporate man who has come down to the real estate office for a pep talk of sorts with a salesman.
You call yourself a salesman, you son of a bitch?
I don't gotta listen to this shit.
You certainly don't, pal.
Because the good news is, you're fired.
The bad news is, you've got all you've got just one week to regain your job, starting with tonight.
Starting with tonight's sit.
Oh.
Have I got your attention now?
Because we're adding a little something to this month's sales contest.
As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado.
Anybody want to see second prize?
Second prize is a set of steak knives.
Third prize is you're fired.
You get the picture?
You laughing now?
You got leads.
Mitch and Murray paid good money.
Get their names to sell them.
You can't close the leads you're given.
You can't close s***.
You are s***.
Hit the bricks, pal, and beat it because you are going out.
Before we hear Terry's interview with James Foley, let's listen to one more scene from the film.
It features actors Ed Harris and Alan Arkin talking about what they could do if they had good leads.
The leads are the suckers to whom they hope to sell real estate.
Are you just talking about this or are we just talking about it?
Yeah, we're just speaking about it.
Speaking about it as an idea.
Yes.
We're not actually talking about it.
No.
Talking about it as a robbery.
As a robbery?
No.
Wow.
Hey.
So all this, you didn't actually call Graff?
You didn't talk to him?
Not actually, no.
You didn't?
No, not actually.
Did you?
What did I say?
What did you say?
I said not actually.
F*** you, George.
We're just talking.
We are?
Yes.
Because, uh, because it's a crime.
Robbery.
That's right.
It is a crime.
It's also very safe.
You're actually talking about this.
That's right.
You're gonna steal the leads.
Have I said that?
Are you?
Did I say that?
Did you talk to Graham?
What did I say?
What did he say?
What did he say?
We buy them.
The language, as we all heard, is not exactly naturalistic.
It's a really kind of stylized, like hyper-realist form of colloquial language.
When you're reading the script and figuring out what you want to get out of it as the director, how does a Mamet script read different from what you're used to seeing as a script?
Mm-hmm.
Well, it's good, which is very different.
And, I think, the most important thing.
When I read this screenplay, I certainly was aware of what it was and I really began to read it with some trepidation, like why do I want to make a film out of this Pulitzer Prize-winning play?
It was not something I ever saw myself doing.
And so I read it with, yeah, well, you know, not likely.
But what really surprised me was that the reading of it seemed much more emotionally accessible than my memory of the play.
I had thought when I saw the play that it really appealed to me sort of from the neck up and was an interesting intellectual philosophical, black humorous sort of experience.
But reading the screenplay, for some reasons that I later analyzed for myself, it really opened up a whole nother level of an emotional accessibility to the characters that had not been evident for me on stage.
Did you want people to read the lines naturalistically or were you looking for something else?
No, that was very important because I became aware early on that there was a real danger that actors could get into with language like this, where they get seduced by the superficial level of gratification that comes from just saying good dialogue.
That's written in a rhythmic way.
Because if you just memorize the lines and say them fast, they sound good.
And so one could get convinced that it actually meant something.
And That actually happened a lot when we had actors come in to read and some really heavyweight actors had come in and read.
And they made a big mistake by sort of having prepared in that superficial way.
And so it was flashy and entertaining but totally boring to me.
What i was much more interested in was getting actors who had an interior emotional life that was easily accessible, and i felt as if the technical aspects of being able to fire off this rapid, rapid dialogue with something that would come later.
But it was secondary to me to to this internal life and an internal life specific to cinema actors.
The casting is terrific in the film, but it seems to me you've brought together actors with really different kinds of acting styles.
You have Jack Lemmon, who's a kind of naturalistic actor.
And Al Pacino's Al Pacino.
I was going to sit and wait to hear you get an adjective for each guy.
Ed Harris is kind of chameleon-like in a way.
He can really blend into a role.
Lemons have a different generation than a lot of actors in.
They're both in terms of his age, but also in terms of his style.
I was wondering if you consciously picked people with different acting styles and what it was like to work with people who, it seems to me, probably take really different approaches to their characters.
Yeah, there was certainly no intention to deliberately pick people with different styles.
It was really.
I mean, Al and I literally sat down and made a list of who we thought were the best living actors.
Without even regards to what parts they could play, how old they were, who do we think is great?
And the list isn't that long, you know, when you sit down and just say who's the best.
And we started from that idea and wound up with these guys.
And it's very true that they all have very different styles of acting, and it was a great fun for me when, particularly when they were all in the scene together and you know you say cut, and then you need to go out and speak to each one of them, and you would I'd find myself instinctually sort of speaking an entirely different language to each one, which was nice because it made me sort of really expand my own idea of what it means to be a director, and for me, the most important thing is to do what needs to be done rather than what you want to do.
So you needed to speak a different language to each of the actors?
Totally, yes.
Okay, so what would you tell Jack Lemmon as opposed to Al Pacino as opposed to Ed Harris?
Jack Lemmon is very... will speak very clearly about the thing quite literally.
The thing being what's going on at the moment that...
And perhaps the most telling thing is that when Jack would talk about the character, he would say um he.
He would say I think he's feeling this because of this, and blah blah, blah and say whole articulate sentences.
Al would never speak like that.
Because first of all he would say I referring to something, but he would never talk about any kind of singular idea or notion.
And it's something that I understand very much, because if you articulate a single idea that's happening, then you might sort of glom onto that in too much of a specific way rather than letting all the contradictions and ambivalences that might naturally come out.
So he's very reluctant to identify any one particular feeling and even reluctant to finish a sentence.
But I began to understand very well what he was talking about, and I agreed with him.
So our communication was more like him saying I think you know, maybe you know, and I'd say yeah right, more so blah blah, blah.
And we somehow did it.
And even to the point where it got to you know where, once we had done enough takes where we both felt like we really had it, we would always do one crazy one.
And we just call it a crazy one because to try something just that was a stupid idea.
But it's amazing how many of the crazy ones are in there.
James Foley speaking to Terry Gross live on stage in 1992 after a screening of his then new movie Glengarry Glen Ross.
More after a break.
This is Fresh Air.
It's interesting.
People put money into their retirement accounts for years, but they have no idea what's supposed to happen when they have to start taking money out.
When I'm speaking to a prospective client for the first time, one of the ways that I work to establish trust is to listen to them.
Is there anything we should know about their spouse or their children, or plans to move or their health?
Our job is to get the full picture.
Then we can take a look at their resources and see if we can improve their situation.
It's far more comprehensive than just managing the money.
When clients realize that we have the resources and the competence to be able to handle a wide array of financial questions, they know they're in good hands.
Let's return to Terry's 1992 live-on-stage conversation with director James Foley after a screening of his then-new film version of the David Mamet play Glengarry, Glen Ross.
Foley died last week at age 71.
In the movie, all the actors have to sell really crummy real estate.
They have really bad leads.
The real estate isn't good and the people who they're supposed to be selling it to don't have the money and they don't have the interest.
I wonder if getting assigned to or volunteering to make a movie that you don't really believe in would be the equivalent of what these guys are up against selling stuff that isn't good.
That's very interesting.
I think exactly that.
I have thought about that because I had one experience where I... did that and it was hell.
I directed an episode of Twin Peaks and it was in the second season and I had they asked me in the first season and I couldn't do it.
So they asked me at the beginning of the second season and I said yes and I made this commitment and thinking it would be like the first season.
By the time I got there, David Lynch had totally abandoned the thing.
The scripts, he was not putting input into the writing of the script.
He was off in Tokyo selling his art and, And there I was stuck with this script that had nothing.
That was like faux Lynch.
It was like a bunch of people sitting around sort of making believe they were David Lynch.
And I'm stuck with this script and it was horrifying.
Nothing was more terrible in my life. because you don't know what to do.
I don't know where to put the camera.
I don't know what to say to the actors.
I just want to go home.
And it was really, really an awful experience.
Luckily, it was only four or five days, you know, one episode.
But it gave me a lesson about that very thing, that there's no way I could get through making a film that I didn't, even if delusional, didn't think had the potential to be good.
When you're directing a movie in which all the actors in it are playing the part of somebody who's very aggressive and in selling.
Are they that way when you're trying to direct them?
Was it intimidating at all?
Because they're all playing these really manipulative people who have their raps and they have their ways.
No, it was which has been my experience really on every film that actors really, really want to be directed and they want interaction.
Even the big stars?
Well, that's what's great, is that it doesn't matter who it is.
And I really think the best actors like Alan and the rest of the guys are so interested in trying anything that they very much want a reaction.
And what was interesting, as you said before, is that each person wants that reaction in a different way.
I mean, some people don't want you to say certain things and other people do want you to say certain things.
And that's the fun part is this instinctual idea of figuring out what it is that they need, at what time, including sometimes being a little bit pushing, a little bit more than they might want at the time.
But there's a mutual understanding of what you're doing.
Who did you push?
I push them all at different times in different ways, but it's all different how you push them.
Because sometimes pushing just means, let's do another take right now really fast.
And they go, well, wait.
And you say no, it has to be really fast because we're really in, and you sort of discombobulate them on purpose because you feel like perhaps we're getting into a kind of rut and it's getting too precious and people are getting too conscious of what they're saying.
And you want to.
And I've taken to do weird things.
Like you know, I demand silence all the time from everybody on the crew and everything.
I'm always barking about that.
And then I get total silence.
And then when it's ready to go, I scream, not cut.
What do I scream?
Action.
One of those two things.
And just scream, action!
Like as loud as I can, which is like really startling.
And then the actor's got to start saying his line.
But it's sort of like sometimes you see them standing there and they're getting too much into a plan of what they're going to do.
And you want them to forget their plan and let whatever happens going to happen.
And so it's all different things of doing.
I actually threw a fit once, a fake fit yelling at somebody on the crew, just to get the actors out of their lethargy and change the mood.
The electricity on the set.
Was the crew member in on the fact that this was a fake fit?
Yes.
Yes, I made sure I did that.
So what were you throwing the fit about?
I was throwing the fit about people talking, because I'm famous for throwing fits, real fits because people will not shut up.
So I asked this one guy to talk, right, so then I could turn around and scream at him.
It worked.
Did it get what you wanted?
Oh, yeah, definitely.
So what did it get you doing it?
It got me, the actors, being more immediate.
The thing you always have to fight on take 11 is that people are doing the exact same thing, and it begins to become, they begin to remember that they just did it before, and so there's a repetition, an inevitable repetition.
So it's almost like this feeling you have when all of a sudden in the middle of the day the weather changes dramatically and it goes from being sunny and calm and then wind is coming and you feel your whole mood and everything change and you've got to sort of change the weather on the set sometimes.
Listen, it's been wonderful to have you here and it's been wonderful to get the kind of insights that you could give us into this film and into filmmaking in general.
So thank you very, very much for being here.
Thank you.
Thank you.
James Foley speaking to Terry Gross in 1992, live on stage after a screening of his then-new film Glengarry Glen Ross.
Foley died last week at age 71.
On Monday's show, Cola Scola, the writer and star of the Broadway play Oh Mary, a crazy comic reimagining of First Lady Mary Todd Lincoln in the days leading up to her husband's assassination.
The New York Times calls it one of the best comedies in years.
I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Sam Brigger is our managing producer.
Our senior producer today is Roberta Sharma.
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Diana Martinez.
For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.
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