Hi, Allie. Hi. So nice to meet you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
So let's just jump right in.
Tell me a little bit, what's going on, kind of what's top of mind for you right now.
Okay. So I have five kids.
My oldest is six and my youngest are one.
They just turned one out of twins who are one.
And then I have a five year old and a two and a half year old.
So life is really busy and trying to cultivate really kind, thoughtful people is really important to me.
And my oldest, she is six and she is in grade one.
She just happened to make friends who when they spend time together and they're friends, they're lovely, but she's kind of a mean girl.
And my daughter never knows that when she is going to go to school, if she's going to be friends with her friend, like she's always just waiting to know if she's going to be friends with her or not.
And waiting mode is never good for anybody.
But waiting to know if you're going to be liked that day is like a really, it's hard.
And so on the days where they're good, my daughter comes home really happy.
And on the days that they're not good, there's big emotions everywhere and just like not knowing how to navigate that.
And we're also friends with the family as well, which makes it a bit tricky.
So just trying to encourage my daughter, like how do I encourage her other than what I have been saying, like you should make friends with people who make you feel like your best self rather than just waiting to be loved.
I know that feeling I had that as a kid.
Even if that my friend from when I was a kid talks to me now, I'm like, yes, you know, like I get it, I get it.
Ruined through, but how do you change the narrative?
And how do you encourage making friends who make you feel like your best self all the time?
Like healthy relationships.
A healthy relationship?
Yeah. How do we encourage healthy relationships for a six year old?
Oh boy, does today's episode resonate with me?
What do you do when you see your kid engaging in a type of relationship pattern that makes you cringe or that reminds you of yourself or makes you think, oh no, this is not a healthy relationship pattern for them to be in when they're older.
How do we differentiate what's going on today from our anxiety about the future?
And what does our kid need today to develop healthy relationship patterns?
I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside.
We'll be right back.
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First of all, Allie, I mean this.
I'm bowled over by your thoughtfulness and just the way that you're thinking through this.
I think you're able to see what's going on.
And one of the things I think thoughtful parents do is they say, oh, what is the actual dynamic underneath?
And I think you're even saying, oh no, I see the adult dynamic version of this.
Right. And oh, I've been there.
I've seen that. I don't want that for her.
I know the early years.
In fact, the later years, what do I do?
And I just want to start by saying, I'm so glad in your mind, you're thinking, hey, this is going on.
Okay, what can I do about this?
And maybe there are resources about this.
Maybe I feel a little stuck and maybe what I'm doing, I'm not sure.
And I just think it's amazing you turned that into calling in with a question as opposed to so many of us when we're struggling, we just spiral into an abyss and we feel stuck and worse and worse.
So I think that's amazing, especially I just have to say five children, six and under.
It's wild. That's yeah.
And so you're a warrior for even like remembering your child's name.
So there's that. Okay, next step.
I want to know a little bit and you started to allude to it.
What comes up for you?
What comes up for you when you hear about this, when she's talking about it?
If I just had a kind of camera into your internal world, what are some of the worries coming up or the feelings or like you said, your own history, our body connects our kids to our own memories?
So just let me in to that whole world inside of you.
Okay, so inside my head it's like freaking out normally.
I'm like, oh, I don't want this for you.
I know how debilitating it can be, just like friends are your world, right?
When people see me, I feel like a million bucks.
You just feel like you can do all things.
And when I'm not seeing, when people aren't seeing, it's like, you just shut down and you just like, you feel lonely and loneliness is never good.
And so I don't want that for her at six to feel like she's not worth it, to feel that she is valuable for who she is and not just on the off day, like every day.
And I can tell her until like I'm blue in the face, but I don't know how to get into her head that it's not just mom saying another thing.
It's that it's actually, like, I wish I had someone say it to me when I was little, that you don't have to wait around for someone to love you back.
Like make your friends, your friends come and go, and that's okay.
But I want her to, like I want to know how to like build her up inside that life doesn't need to just be what other people sing about you.
And she's an affirmations girl, I know that.
And I'm an affirmations girl, I know that.
And so trying to like affirm all the time and not just on the good days when they're in good graces.
And it seems, Ally, like you see yourself in her, you feel like maybe she maybe sees herself in you, like you have a lot of similarities here.
So I just want to jump in and say a couple things about what you just shared with me.
Number one, I just think it's helpful for us to not limit ourselves at all to being like one type of girl or person, right?
So even to say, like, yeah, I noticed like I like affirmations and anything that works for us in life also works against us in life.
And I think this is what you're saying.
Wow, when I get affirmations, I have really good feelings in my body.
When I don't get affirmations, there's a big swing and I struggle to have those good feelings in my body.
And after that, Ally, I think there's almost two roads that we could think about.
One is, well, how can I surround myself with people who are more likely to give me those affirmations?
It's actually not the road I'd recommend us going down, because I think there's a more resilient conference building road, which is how can I start to generate good feelings inside myself so I can feel good even in the absence of affirmations?
Does that make sense as like a kind of different road?
And I like the sound of this road.
Great, great. We're going to walk down it.
It's a good road. I like it, too.
It's a harder road.
Well, it's actually not harder long term, but it's harder short term, like everything in life.
If something's easy, short term, it's probably not great long term.
And the opposite is true, too, because I could go around now and saying, what friend can I find who could always tell me I'm amazing?
OK, I found one. I found one.
I found a one. Short term networks.
But it's also kind of exhausting.
I'm like on a treadmill finding these people versus what's a little harder short term.
But boy, will it help me in the long run is, wait, what is it like for me when I'm around people who aren't giving me positive attention?
What is it like for me when I want someone's attention and they don't give it to me?
OK, that is hard. I have to dig deep.
But what would I say to myself in those situations?
To generate worth and value as opposed to do I need in the situation then to kind of spin around my head and say, well, who will give me those feelings?
Where are that person?
Because that actually can be really frenetic and actually kind of gets us away from the core thing, which is how amazing it is to feel pretty good about yourself, even when other people aren't reflecting that back to you.
And so here is where I think we have this amazing opportunity.
Guess what? And this is always how it happens, at least at Good Inside.
You and your daughter are going to work on this together.
And I actually think that's so powerful to even share with her as you're going through this.
Oh, you know, to say to again, I actually have a hard time with this too.
Isn't that amazing?
You do. I do. We're going to try some things together.
Hey, I tried this today.
What do you think? Hey, I did this right now, all of a sudden, instead of it being her issue, it's ours.
Yeah. And the issue maybe is even too harsh.
It's like we all have things we're working on.
We all have roads we're walking down and it's lonely to walk down a kind of bumpy road.
By yourself. It's also kind of scary.
Right. So I hope that framework makes sense.
And then actually, I think you'll say, wow, maybe I even grew from this even more than my daughter, like, and she really grew.
So that's saying something about me.
Right. So number one, I think even just acknowledging that framework is helpful.
My job isn't to find people who tell me I'm great.
My job is to talk to myself when no one is giving me that affirmation and start to slowly build up the muscle of feeling great.
And I want to say slowly because it's kind of cheaper and easier to get that affirmation from someone else.
And let's say we feel like a zero.
If I can go to someone else and they say something amazing, I'm going to feel like a 10.
If I try to do it myself, as I'm working on this muscle, the best I'm going to get is like a two at the beginning.
I just want to be honest.
OK, it's just not the same.
But when you know that it doesn't bum you out so much.
Right. So I think mantras are actually a really good place to start.
So I'm going to throw out a couple just to get us started.
And if you say, Becky, all those are horrible, I don't like any of them.
That's actually a win in my book.
So I'm just going to throw things out there because sometimes it helps, you know, get it going.
My job isn't to get people to like me.
That's one. Throw out another one.
My value and worth live inside of me.
Another one. I am lovable and good inside always.
Any of those hit you?
And if not, that's I like number two.
OK, yeah, like the other one, the third.
Yeah, it would go two, three, one.
Love it. Love the ranking system.
Perfect. You know yourself and even that all I think actually is an amazing moment to take something in like, wow, Becky said a couple of things.
I noticed inside of me what really struck me.
I noticed how that felt like that's pretty cool of me that I know that she didn't tell me she wasn't like this is the one.
Right. She didn't give me the answer.
Like I noticed that that's already building what I call interiority.
I think about a lot with this concept with adults and kids interiority.
I think it's the idea that like I have valuable worthy things.
I have ideas, I have instincts, I have feelings, I have interests that live inside of me.
No one put them there.
No one can give them to me.
I have that as part of my interior self.
Versus kind of people have bold, light, beautiful things and I kind of want them to like give them to me.
Through affirmations, through praise and then, oh, I have those feelings inside myself versus the idea of interiority as well.
There's actually, some of that lives inside me.
I just kind of gotta like search and find it.
We're switching our gaze from being primarily out to primarily in.
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So let's even talk about how you could talk about this with your daughter.
I want to make this link.
I think it'll be really cool to find your daughter today, tomorrow, and just say, I want to share something with you, okay?
It's not something I've told any of the other kids, okay?
So I feel like you're old enough, you're going to get it.
You can kind of build up some specialness there, right?
Anytime someone tells us, I just want to tell you specifically this thing.
We're like, ooh, okay, perked up.
And I'd say, you know, sometimes, even for me as an adult, it's like, ooh, who wants to have lunch with me?
Who texted me? Who liked my photo on Instagram?
I'm like kind of with my eyes like looking all around me and hoping people say good things.
And you know what I realized?
I'm a pretty cool person on the inside.
Like it's nice when people do those things, don't get me wrong, but it's not like everything, and I'm going to do this thing with my hands, Allie.
Like, like here's how I am as like a cool person.
And I guess people sometimes make me feel a little better.
But the truth is I don't want to give them the power anymore to either make me feel amazing or horrible or here.
Cause like, I'm already pretty up there.
I'm really working on that.
Now your kid, just to be clear, is not going to say, that's so profound.
I'm going through that as well.
Like she will not say that.
Okay? Cause the only thing she'll say is she'll look up at you.
And she'll say something like, can I have my pretzels now?
And you'll be like, Oh my God, I like prepared the whole day for this like amazing moment.
You just want pretzels, but it's fine.
It's like truly, truly impactful to our kids.
Even if they don't produce something back.
Right? Okay. So then let's kind of move to, how do I actually help my child?
I want to share something that might sound a little counterintuitive, but those are actually my favorite interventions.
Cause I think it helps us see something differently.
I'll make the point generally, and then move to specific about the friendship stuff.
When we want our kids to stop doing any behavior, we actually have to double down on trying to understand what's compelling about that behavior first.
So my kid is always saying poopy peepee at the table.
If you're like me, you're like, stop saying that, stop saying that, stop saying that.
Cause I want them to stop.
But if I realize this counterintuitive idea, I'd actually say, Hey, before we go to dinner, what is, like, what's so fun about saying that?
I, I'm not asking that because I think it's not fun.
Like what's the best part?
Oh, it's funny. Oh, it's funny.
It's fun to say funny things at the table.
Oh, okay. Um, is it funnier than saying la la Lulu?
Oh, it is. Why? Oh, you know, oh, I get upset.
Oh, so it's kind of fun to make me upset, right?
What, whatever it is.
I'm actually getting to know the behavior.
Because before any of us can stop doing something, we all have to kind of understand what's in this for me.
There must be something in it for your daughter.
Because if there wasn't, she's a smart girl.
She would say, you know what?
The bad feelings I get from this friend aren't worth the effort.
So she really would.
That's what we do, but there must be something compelling.
And the more we ever try to convince a kid to stop doing something that clearly has some compelling motivation.
We actually only make them more attached to that behavior because they stick to it more.
And so what I would actually say to her, I'm going to call, you know, this other girl, Mary, for now, okay?
I'd say, you know what I'm thinking about?
There's something about the times you're playing with Mary where she really wants to play with you, where like there's the days at school where she's like, Oh, yay, I'm so glad you're here.
Let's hold hands. Let's sit next to each other.
You're the one I want to be with on the soccer field.
Whatever it is. I wonder if that feels good.
Like, I'm going to do my hands again, like this good, this good, or like this good.
And I have a feeling she's going to say, no, mom, it's this good or something.
And I don't know, my heart like feels that it's like, you're just kind of trying to get, Oh, it feels so big and amazing.
I get that. Then I might say, what about the days?
And you're like, Oh, Mary, Mary.
And she's just like, pretend she doesn't even know you.
Does it feel this bad?
This bad? Right. And I guess already, I don't know.
What do you think she would say?
Pretty bad. Yeah. Like maybe this bad.
Oh, I would just reflect back.
Oh, that's so interesting.
She's the type of friend that can either make you feel this good, which is amazing.
Or this bad. And then I could see myself using my favorite word in the world.
That's really tricky.
That's really tricky.
To have a friend who does have the power to make those good feelings feel like as big as they've ever been or make good feelings kind of be a small as they've ever been.
That's a tricky kind of friend to have.
So as opposed to lecturing my kid, as opposed to trying to teach them a life lesson, interestingly enough, through my words, we try to teach our kids life lessons through our words.
You know, sweetie, it's nice to have friends who are kind to you and generous to you all the time.
I just don't know about you.
Like they're just words.
They're just logic.
They register in my brain.
Like my experience in life is probably being driven by all the feelings in the rest of my body, except for my brain.
This is why we all do stuff.
That's not good for us because logic is always saying no, but our bodies like, yeah, yeah, I'm searching for something.
And our body just always wins.
So when we tell our kids different things or life lessons, that's kind of pure logic, I always say when we're telling our kid what to think, it doesn't register.
But what I just modeled is actually starting the process of helping your kid learn how to think, because I know Ally, if your daughter comes to you and she's 16 and she says, mom, this is so tricky.
I have a friend who can make me feel like the most amazing person in the world.
Like sunlight is just all over me.
But mom, the same friend on different days can make me feel as low as anything.
Like it's literally a dark rain cloud over me all the time.
Isn't that tricky to figure out?
I mean, if my kid ever said that to me, I could be like, you just kind of figured it out more than anyone else now to figure out what to do, but actually your ability to notice that is the foundation for good decisions, right?
So what you're doing is you're really, I always think about, you're setting the circuitry for noticing, for putting language to things, for reflecting, for how we process things around us, which probably won't lead to the next day.
She's not going to say, you know what, thank you for this.
I don't want to invite Mary to my birthday party.
She's probably not going to say that.
She's probably going to be like, okay, yeah, yeah.
Could I self -applate it with Mary?
And you'll be like, oh my God, did that not register?
But it did. Okay. So I've been talking a lot, and I'm going to pause.
Tell me, tell me what you think about that.
Is that different from what you've been doing?
What resonates? What doesn't?
Do you want to throw it all away?
We'll start again. Nope.
I think it is helpful because she is very emotionally intelligent.
People were always her toys, so people are what she gets.
And so I do like that she's actually home today, so I might have this conversation later, but, and then she'll honor her pencils.
But I think using the visual would be helpful.
Like the size of the bat or the size of the dead.
The size. I think it would be very helpful, just even for her to get a picture in her mind.
Yes, it makes it concrete.
Yeah. And I think, not that I have been doing bad things to try and get her to, you know, see the bigger picture, but it is helpful having a tangible thing for her, like a picture in her mind and go.
Like she was at this friend's house a few weeks ago and the friend didn't even acknowledge her the whole time.
And she did go up to the mom and express that she was like really disappointed.
And I got a text from the mom being like she, her emotional intelligence is just but they sat down and chatted about it.
And she's like, maybe she needs food to be enjoying me more.
Like maybe let's try and problem solve.
So she is a problem solver in her mind.
And so just even for her to take a step back and go to what you said, like it's giving her tangible things to think about for herself and not just for her friend.
That's exactly right.
Because I just, have you, have you done my mini friendship workshop?
No. Okay. It's one of the, the many things I think will help.
I also think you're going to be obsessed with the confidence workshop because it's all about long -term how we build this inside first inside out confidence, which is kind of at the core because this thing you're noticing your daughter, which is amazing.
Well, it'll pop up in different ways.
So if we can help just build that type of confidence, it'll like be 20 fold the impact.
But one of the things I also talk about in there is going from how do I solve this problem to just what's going on for me right now, because a lot of us, and I think a lot of us women are like this thing isn't going well, or this person isn't liking me, how can I fix that problem?
The truth is that's not really the core problem.
The bigger thing is, wait, what's going on for me?
Why do I feel like I need to fix this problem?
Maybe it's not about coming up with a more fun activity.
Maybe it's saying, Hey, I'd like my mom to pick me up.
Like if I'm going to go to someone's house doesn't want to talk to me like no bueno, like I'm just going to move on.
You know? So I think that starts though with reflecting.
I'm like, wait, how do I feel right now?
Moving from kind of, again, our gazes, this person doesn't like me.
What do I do to wait, I don't, I'm not really having such a fun time.
What should I do? And so I think again, that takes time.
It's not going to happen overnight, but one more idea that I think would help kind of, kind of accelerate that.
The more we speak to kind of these same processes in our own life around our kids, the more able they will be to kind of mimic that in their own life.
So I'll give you an example.
I could see saying around your daughter, maybe just saying to her, or actually maybe I would just be like pontificating out loud when she just quote, happens to be next to me.
Obviously this whole thing is planted because it's, I want her to hear it.
I could hear saying, Oh, his friend like didn't invite me to lunch today.
And like, I invited like all these other moms in the grade and I don't know.
I think I'm going to call her and be like, what did I do to not get invited?
Wait a second. Wait a second.
Wait a second. Wait a second.
My worth and value are inside of me.
I'm worthy. I'm valuable.
Just as I am. I probably didn't do anything.
Wait, I think I'm saying I want to go to lunch with someone.
Wait, why do I want to go to lunch with someone who didn't want to have me there?
Wait, I actually really like friend X and Y.
You know what? I'm going to text X and Y and see if they can have lunch this week.
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm going to do.
Right? Now, I wouldn't turn to your daughter after.
And say, just like you can do with Mary.
Like we do stuff like that and then we just take away all of the magic of the moment, just trust that the things we say around our kids that they have a magnet for, which they inherently know they do, because this is what she's struggling with, it clicks.
It just does. And the power is how it clicks and will impact them after.
And you're also kind of modeling something realistic.
She's not going to come to you one day and say, mom, I don't care about Mary anymore because my worth and value are inside of me.
And so I'm only around, no, she's just not going to say that.
It's like, none of us say that.
Okay. The best it gets is we watch ourself do something that's like probably not the healthiest for us.
We pause, we kind of notice it.
We question it. And then we maybe consider a different route.
Like all the years I've worked with adults in therapy, the best it gets is that when we have patterns, the idea that we are just going to click in naturally and easily to some totally different pattern.
I'm like, why do we set ourselves up to think that's successful?
How about success is noticing an old pattern, pausing.
That's so powerful.
That's so cool to be able to do that.
Wait, there's that thing.
It's not a bad pattern, but it's not always useful.
Wait, maybe I want to do something else.
Yeah, let me try that.
That is so amazing as a human to be able to do that.
And I think for you to model it, it really takes the shame out of it also.
It doesn't set her up to think she's all of a sudden going to do something.
That's kind of far from where she is.
And like I was saying, that is something that I bet would be helpful to you period.
Those people are doing so without me.
Like, wait, that's where that first mantra comes in.
My worth, my value live inside of me.
Okay. You're only going to have to believe it when we start to say new things to ourselves.
That's fine. Okay. What would be a different action?
Okay. Yeah, maybe I do want to, who would I want to have lunch with?
Maybe like, do I even want to have lunch with those people?
Sometimes we forget to ask ourselves that it's like, I don't even like what they usually talk about.
Okay. I'm going to reach out to this person.
And I think that is something that would really be helpful to you, probably as a grownup and such a powerful thing to model for your daughter.
I think you're right.
My brain is like, um, and that is why truly I want you to have the workshop too, because parents tell me like the things I'm working on, like it's just helpful to watch a five minute snippet because I have it.
It's a new idea. It goes to the bottom of my list because logistics and laundry and kid soccer schedules goes to the top.
And I'm like, what was that thing?
Okay. Little refresher, it activates in my body.
It's back there. I always say, I really feel like good inside is a language.
Right. And most of us were raised in a different language and it would be like if you said to me, I was raised in English and I want to speak Mandarin to my kids.
Is that possible? And I'd be like, that's of course possible.
But I'd also say, you probably have to like, do something to like practice Mandarin.
And guess what? In high stress moments, you're going to go back to English.
You just will. It doesn't mean all your lessons are lost, but it probably means, wait, let me get that Mandarin refresher.
Do I have that in my back pocket?
Okay. Moving on. So you will kind of quote, forget a lot of this.
It's great to have something.
You do a little refresh.
You do one, one thing.
And that's again, kind of that pattern of noticing old patterns.
It's funny, we're back here pausing, doing a refresh and kind of trying something a little bit new.
So you're doing this exactly right.
No one is meant to absorb everything.
And I'm excited for you to take a step, lose focus, realize that do a refresher.
And take another step.
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Well, thank you. I just know also, Allie, like this is something so many of us struggle with with our kids, we see it again.
I just want to commend you on being so aware of it and saying, okay, like what are some little things here and there that I could do, not just for now, but to build this longer term confidence and kind of focus on healthy relationships, I think it's such a gift to our kids when we think that way.
And so she's, she's lucky to have you.
Thank you very much.
So if this conversation resonated and it makes you think, I really would like to help my kid build the type of confidence that helps them develop healthy relationship patterns.
I want to make sure you check out those two workshops that I mentioned to Allie.
The tricky friendship moments workshop, as well as the workshop on building lasting confidence, which is truly one of my favorites.
All of that can be found within Good Inside membership.
Check out the link in the show notes for more.
Thank you for listening to share a story or ask me a question.
Go to goodinside .com slash podcast, or you could write me at podcast at goodinside .com.
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world.
And you deserve resources and support.
So you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold.
I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership.
It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents.
It's game -changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have.
Good Inside with Dr.
Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristen Muller.
I would also like to thank Eric Abelski, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the Good Inside team.
And one last thing before I let you go.
Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.
