From the heart of Beijing to the edges of the global stage, you are at Roundtable.
I'm Niu Henlin.
Have you ever heard of micro-shifting?
Now, some people describe it as the future of work, but not everyone is invited to that future.
While digital professionals push for the reshaping of their days into flexible bursts, millions of workers remain tied to fixed locations, fixed hours and fixed pay structures.
How do you envision the future of work?
What are the pros and cons in your opinion about microshifting?
Stay tuned and find out.
For today's show, I'm joined by Xinyu and Steve Hatherly.
Pull up a chair and now join the conversation.
Let's be honest the old 9-to-5 is starting to look like a leftover from the Industrial Revolution, while everyone is trying to figure out a new way to arrange their shifts.
So now the most popular one is called micro-shifting.
Instead of one long, continuous workday, people are breaking work into short, non-continuous bursts, usually 45 to 90 minutes, then stepping away for errands, workouts or childcare before jumping back in.
From fraternity-friendly posts in Shanghai to Gen Z workers juggling multiple side hustles, the message is very clear.
Time autonomy is becoming non-negotiable for employees and it's reshaping labor markets worldwide.
As companies move toward this nonlinear future, the professional contract itself is being rewritten.
So what does this mean for our everyday working lives?
And does micro-shifting really improve work-life balance?
Or maybe to some people does it blur the line between work and life until there's no boundary left at all?
To answer all these really hard to answer questions, let's first take a look at micro-shifting the concept itself and exactly what it is.
And if you are following a micro-shifting kind of schedule, what are you supposed to arrange your workday?
Yeah, so this is basically an extreme form of hybrid working.
And, as you said, it cuts your day into these short, non-continuous bursts, if you could use that word.
Sprint.
Yeah, of focused, really focused labor.
And that's a point that I want to come back to in just a sec.
But it's very unique and it's a concept that I don't think we've heard about before.
So what a microburst of work looks like is...
45 to 90 minutes of work before you leave and go do something.
We'll leave that something for just a few minutes.
But your working time is 45 to 90 minutes.
This is a real move away from your traditional office hours.
And this is a move toward a schedule that is structured entirely around the life of the employees.
So I guess micro-shifting is bringing that kind of flexibility to the next level to adjust your work according to your lifestyle.
Like for these early births, they might like to work between like 7 to 9 am.
Then they can go to run some of their errands and do some maybe shopping, and then come back in the afternoon and work for another one and a half hours.
And then maybe after dinner, You can also work at night.
So that kind of like cuts the workday into different blocks.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is just in recognition that these days, employees are number one looking for a different style of work and number two people have their own lives that they need to take care of.
I don't think it's about you know.
You bring up the example of going shopping, which is fair, but at the same time I think it's more about you know, if you have kids and you need to drop them off at school in the morning and then maybe you forgot, i don't know, to bring them their lunch box, so you have to go home and get that, and then you have to go to the bank to pay the bills and then you have to do other things, then you come back to work for another now hour and a half, and i think when you say that, the key word to me is have to.
You have a lot of things that you have to do, that that have to cut your life or cut your working hours into little pieces.
It's not that working in these little fragmented time slot is beneficial necessarily to everybody.
It's just Like Steve has said, the design of it is centering the life of the employee, rather the work itself.
And I think that is partly why it's kind of popular among people.
Yeah.
And again, it's a completely different style.
So you might first arrive at the office at 9 am in the morning and then leave the office for the last time during that day at 10 pm 11 pm at night.
It's just allowing people to do their work as they see fit.
And of course, they still have to take care of their work responsibilities.
It's not like this is a vacation.
You still have to do all the things that you do, but you can mix in your own life into that work day.
Now you said have to is an important term, but I would say have to is a relative term, because have to doesn't just mean going to the bank regularly or doing whatever responsibilities you have during that day.
But have to can apply to your own personal needs too.
Maybe going to the gym is impossible for you at nighttime with your schedule because of the kids at home, or something like that.
And being able to fit that into maybe a 1 pm to 2 pm slot is much better for your life.
That would apply to the have-to aspect as well.
It's just more personal.
So it's basically stretching your workday by fitting your personal errands or personal needs into it.
And I've looked at some of the extreme cases.
So one CEO describes working 24-7 for two months straight, And it was followed by two weeks in a lower gear to recover and train for triathlons.
And others might work from 7 am so that's very early in the morning until midnight, but pepper the day with long breaks for sports or personal errands.
Before we get to whether we would enjoy this or not, let's see what the general consensus is.
There was an Owl Labs study done in 2025.
It was called the State of Hybrid Work Report.
This is what they found.
65% of office workers want more schedule flexibility.
They asked 2,000 full-time workers in America, by the way.
So that's what they found from one study.
Then in another survey called the Big Shift Index, U.S.
2025.
It showed that micro-shifting is gaining traction beyond knowledge work.
Knowledge work would be jobs that involve thinking or analyzing or creating or communicating things like that.
So it's moving beyond those jobs with Gen Z employees in service industries and they're really embracing this idea of shorter shifts to balance their education needs.
They might take a class in the evening, something like that.
They might have multiple jobs right because of the side hustle yeah, because of the state of the economy.
So if you can squeeze in a part-time shift in the middle of the afternoon which is kind of um, sandwiched in between the other job that you're doing, if you have the flexibility to do that, that helps a lot of people out.
To be honest, I have a lot of questions from the employees perspective, from the company's perspective and also from those clients perspective.
When we talk about clients.
Yes, if you work in service industry, your client would be those who are shopping in the center or who are coming here and taking a haircut, only to find that oh, it's not that.
45 to 90 minutes for my hairdresser, just yet.
Anyways, that's a joke.
But I was trying to say that there are many.
It might turn out for different people in different ways, but it definitely is a worthwhile trying.
In the era of multiple tasks, multiple roles for people.
You have to be the mom at home.
You have to be the employee at your company.
You also might have to be the volunteer in the community because of certain tasks and this is not the first time we try something.
We try the hybrid working schedule, for example.
The four-day work day has been popular for quite a long time in a lot of four-day work week.
Yes, thank you in in different places in the world.
Yes,
And actually some scholars who are studying global four-day workweek trials say that it's not only possible, but productivity can actually be higher than usual nine-to-five schedules.
So according to the data released by Four-Day Week Global, it says the trials of the four-day workweek have already taken place across six continents, in 20 countries and in more than 500 companies.
So it covers almost like every industry.
And the largest trial was conducted in the UK.
And the survey says that after six months, 92 of participating companies chose to keep the four-day workweek.
And during the trial, the average company revenue rose by 35% year-on-year.
So I think we are not seeing just the revenue gained during these trials, but also, I think, productivity has also risen.
Here's another important stat from that particular experiment.
So yeah, it increased revenue by 35%, but employee turnover decreased by...
57%.
Ooh.
57%.
That's significant.
And that was in the UK, but they saw similar trends in America and Canada and Ireland and Portugal, where companies also reported revenue growth.
Now, if we take that information, what can we take away from this?
Well, obviously, it's going to be beneficial for the companies.
They got more money coming into their pockets and lower turnover of employees.
Turnover rate.
They're saving money there too because of employee training and things like that.
Obviously beneficial for the companies then.
At least the ones in those particular experiments.
There was a lot of countries around the world and a lot of different people involved.
That one from the UK, that was 61 companies with 3,000 employees.
That's not a little tiny... study, that's a significant number.
You're right, but I keep thinking that it is possible that the companies are adopting this because they are already observing problems in the running of the company, in the operating, in the managing of their employees, and this is their way to solve those problems.
We cannot really say it's a one-way-fits-all kind of solution for all companies to go to.
But we do see possibilities or we do see reasons why people are doing this.
Xinyu has already mentioned that for the younger generation they would want a relatively more flexible schedule for their side hustles.
And there are also evidence showing that it's Better for work-life balance.
Questioning that?
Because if I have to take care of my kid all day long while working all day long, just do them.
In my opinion, I'm not doing them separately for 45 minutes to 90 minutes a session and having multiple sessions a day.
I'm doing those things simultaneously almost.
And it's not good for my work-life balance.
But I understand how people would have different understanding of this lifestyle.
What are some other reasons we're looking at for those who are very firmly opting for this relatively more flexible working hour?
From the company's point of view or from the employee's point of view?
Well, you can do, I think this applies to both.
You can do just as much in less time.
What they found.
There was another study and I apologize, I forgot to write down these numbers, but I think I remember.
When compared to a 40-hour work week and the amount of work that employees do, meaning the tasks that you give those employees.
If you give them 40 hours, they will take 40 hours to complete those tasks.
If you give them 32 hours, a reduced work week, they will complete those tasks.
But they don't complete them faster if they have to be in the office for all those 40 hours.
Did I explain that well?
Yes.
If you give them 40 hours, they will take 40 hours to complete the tasks.
If you only give them 32, they'll complete them in 32.
Meaning employees work with the amount of time that's given to them.
Here's my final kind of stamp on that point.
We work as a society roughly nine to ten hours a day, right?
Now, how many hours a day at the office?
Do you think you're actually being productive and really focused on your work?
Eight.
You think eight hours?
It really, really depends.
Yeah, it depends on the work.
On the missions you have during that period of time, on the productivity of the people in the same meeting that you're in, on the level of interest you really have to the specific mission.
So there are too many factors.
I kind of get what you're saying here.
Yeah, but that's the tricky part, actually.
Exactly.
I think many office workers, sometimes they're pretending to be busy to be seen by the employers.
Oh, productivity theaters.
Yes.
Sometimes.
I don't know the exact numbers, but The idea of micro-shifting is and it does sound a little bit ridiculous on the surface coming to work for 45 minutes to an hour and a half and then coming back to work for an hour and a half and then coming back to work again for another hour and a half, and doing this all day.
A lot of commute.
Yeah.
It means while you're there, you're actually focused.
And I said, I wanted to come back to this word.
You're actually focused on the work that you're doing and you're actually working.
I worked in an office in Korea.
I was writing an English textbook and a really big office.
There were probably like 200, 300 employees on one floor.
It was huge.
One day in the I turned around to say something to my coworker in the office.
The image that I saw when I turned around was I could see his head above his chair.
His arm was on his computer mouse and he was looking at his computer screen.
I said his name.
He didn't respond.
I said it again.
He didn't respond.
I stood up.
I walked around to the front of his desk.
He was sleeping in the working position.
With his hand on his mouse, genius, looking at his screen.
I'm not saying anything about, you know, employees in Korea or anything like that.
I'm just saying that as a point, nobody is focused work all day while they're at the office.
Microshifting allows people to do that.
That's true.
And that kind of again is why people are exploring different ways to.
By saying people now I mean companies.
The employers are trying to figure out what would be the best way or What would be the best choice for their employee to perform better.
Because ultimately, we're not paying the employers and are paying for employees to stay in the office for eight hours a day.
They're paying for the outcome of work, the wisdom and energy and their time pouring into the mission.
And it's the outcome of the mission that matters.
And at the same time, the benefit of employees are also to be considered.
And that is partly I think that is one reason that many places here in China are adopting flexible hours, but for specific reasons, not just to improve work efficiency, performance or to try to find out whether or not they will benefit the company, but for other reasons, like in Shanghai, I think, there is a parent post kind of thing arranging or allowing parents to take flexible hours.
Yeah, it's called fertility friendly posts.
So this concept was first introduced and piloted by Shanghai in late 2024.
So it's like two years ago.
But Shanghai's pilot was the first to break away from gender-based limits.
So it's just not only benefiting these female workers, but also all members of family involved in childcare.
So in roles like new media operations or video production.
This post is designed for parents with children under 12, allowing them to flex their hours and work environments to balance care and their child care and career.
So, for example, if for a working parent, she or he has to pick up his kid at the hour of four like 430pm.
So probably she can arrive at the office a little bit earlier than nine, like like 8 30 am, and start working till 4 30 pm and then go to the school to pick up her kid.
So that's basically how the post works in shanghai and other cities as well.
Yeah um, do you want to talk about the other side of this coin, the negative side?
Yeah yeah okay, so what i just argued for is for a very responsible employee who will not try to take advantage.
Oh, let me cut you right there.
For a very responsible employee, there is an upside for a very responsible employee as well.
That is, if the employee mind or cares about the work too much, they will end up in a position that they're in a 24-7 kind of working state.
Because whenever their boss calls them, they will reply instantly, even when it's not within the 45 minute to 90 minute period.
Maybe you finished your little session and then you pick up your kid on the way you started to reply and take care of your work on your cell phone.
And when you get your kid, you started to walk your kid hand in hand while having a phone meeting in your ear with your earbuds.
So that is already the downside of the employee.
Which is, this is basically just that always on culture in disguise.
Because now you're still responsible for your work duties, but yeah, you're not in the office, but you're responsible.
So you're just stretching out, you're delaying the inevitable from 8 am in the morning to 10 pm in the evening, if you're lucky yeah, and from a company's point of view, if you have.
Can you imagine if you have all of your employees coming and going all day long times right chaotic yes, Like it's a shopping mall bathroom or something?
Then how are you supposed to coordinate meetings?
Oh, are they here?
Oh, no, they're not here right now.
Okay, well, are you here?
No, they're not here either.
Okay, right?
This is a nightmare trying to organize things.
Yeah, this would be very, very difficult from an organizational point of view.
And that's why micro-shifting is now only really popular in the high-tech industry.
Which is another argument against, because this is only for privileged workers.
This isn't for people who are overnight shift workers.
No.
This isn't for... Team members who need to work in a team with others.
What about police officers?
Ooh, they cannot take shifts like that.
I don't need my neighborhood cops micro-shifting while there's a crime taking place somewhere right.
Nurses, emergency ER nurses.
So the argument is this only applies to some.
So we can't apply this to everyone.
But that argument does not mean we are for or against this way of ranging.
We're only providing this new possibility because we observe this new trend.
And the new trend is another option out there, so that different companies with different managing culture, with different types of managers and different types of employees can can know that oh, there is the possibility.
Maybe this possibility is the exact cure to the problems that I am currently experiencing.
And maybe that 57% turnout rate can happen to my company because I found this new way.
Question, and we didn't discuss this yet.
If your coworker were permitted to be a micro shifter, Yeah.
And they would show up to the office in the morning and then after an hour and a half, they're gone.
And then they come back later and then they're gone again.
But you are not permitted to do this.
They are permitted because they have children.
They have elderly parents.
They have responsibilities they need to take care of.
This actually works for them.
And they still do their job very, very well.
Are you annoyed or are you not?
I think everyone in the workplace.
For example, if you are giving some of the working parents the opportunity to micro shift, then I should have the same opportunity.
I can choose whether or not.
See, there's another organizational issue, right?
Yes.
You have a little society living inside your company.
You have to ensure the equity.
And, according to interview, we talked to someone who's working in a Chinese company who's experiencing this kind of flexible working hours, only that they're working from home, so remote working.
And it turns out, even the remote worker's Work performance as well as KPI everything is slightly higher than those who are working in the office.
The chances that they got promoted is slightly lower than those who are in the office.
So I think if you really want to adopt this, you really have to think about all the factors.
Would you do it?
I would not.
For me, it will be 24 hours working and taking care of my kid.
And also I'm not those kind of people who just not really need longer time to really be immersed in the task.
I would need half an hour to really start the mission and then be really in the flow and to really think deeply about be 100 in the mission to perform it well, so 90 minute might not be enough for me.
Yeah, i'd like to have one more option though, but i guess um, what is that option?
Micro shifting?
Yeah, i would like, i would like to have one more option, but for me probably i'd also choose this night of five schedule.
Maybe after five i can just enjoy myself really, really everything.
Yeah, really refresh yourself, steve.
Some days i feel like i do micro shift and i don't leave the building.
What?
That's micro-shifting?
If I'm having a tiring day.
No, I don't think it would apply to my life.
I think I prefer just the block schedule.
But that's just proof that old habits are hard to break.
Yeah, so for those of you who are listening, please let us know what would be your choice.
And remember someday I want a micro-shifting, someday I want a 905 and also want a promotion, is not the choice you can make.
Let us know what you think about the topic.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, Niu Henlin, Steve Hatherly, and Xin Yu.
