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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
let's have a conversation i think that sounds great well thank you all for coming back um how have you been enjoying the the session thus far yeah yeah so i do conferences like this all around the country the vibes here are really really really great the lighting is amazing too he actually took a little video clip of the lights in the background moving me?
So kudos to Emily's team for putting that together.
Absolutely. Yeah. So let's give her a round of applause here.
Yeah. So with this fireside chat slash podcast, it's going to be an open conversation with me and Melanie.
So we're going to kind of debrief the first session that we did.
And then there were so many leftover questions that we're going to get to some of those leftover questions.
We're going to use the same app.
And so if you want to add more questions, You can do it the exact same way, so we'll walk you through how to do that.
And so now, Melanie, so for you, I'd love to get your perspective on that first session that we did, but give you the opportunity to just ask me any lingering questions that you had so we can go deeper in certain areas that you think are more pertinent or relevant.
Who's that? It's a loud phone.
That's loud. I don't know that I really have any lingering questions.
I know that people enjoyed the session and they have a lot of lingering questions.
They caught me out in the foyer.
They're like, oh, I want to ask more questions.
I said, then come back.
So I really think that it's them that I would like to have the opportunity to ask questions.
Well, yeah, let's put up the slides.
Let's put up the lingering questions there.
there. And I think you all will probably be able to...
How do we negotiate with somebody who has a huge ego?
Do people have egos in California?
Is that a thing? Yeah, it's a thing.
Yeah. So I'll give you a little snippet.
The next book I'm thinking about writing is Negotiating the Ego.
Because when we think about what is required to be effective in these difficult conversations, yeah, we have the tactics.
Yeah, we have the strategies.
But your ego is going to be one of those things that consistently gets in your way from putting things into practice when it matters the most. Because we have our substantive goals in these difficult conversations.
So from a leadership perspective, we might be giving feedback to somebody and then we want them to change their behavior.
In a relationship setting, we have different things that we're trying to negotiate there too.
But then what ends up happening is when our ego gets inflamed in these difficult conversations, our goals shift subconsciously.
And then we turn this conversation into more of a portal for our expression of our ego.
And that leads us in negative directions too.
And so I think the first thing that we have to do is recognize, yes, when we're thinking about somebody who has a big ego, we have to think about ourselves and understand how our ego is coming into play.
Because if we're recognizing somebody else's ego, It is very likely that your ego is at play as well, and it's becoming a war of wills in this conversation.
And we're looking at them saying, man, this person's got a massive ego.
How arrogant are they?
And then they're saying, man, this person's got a huge ego, right?
And so we have two people that are emoting, using this conversation to assert their dominance in the relationship.
And so when it comes to addressing somebody else's ego, let's get to the heart of the question now.
we have to recognize that the ego will operate tantamount to an emotion in the conversation.
So when we talk about frustration, we talked about acknowledging and validating the emotion.
It sounds like you're frustrated right now.
We're not going to say, hey, it sounds like you're an egomaniac.
That's not what we're going to say.
But what we can say is, hey, it sounds like you put a lot of thought into this position.
Oh, it sounds like based on your experience, you have a a really informed perspective here.
Am I sensing this right?
Or it sounds like this is something that you really care about.
So I'm going to touch on it.
I'm going to make sure that they feel seen in that interaction.
Because if they don't feel seen, then they're going to make me feel them in the interaction.
They're going to say, hmm, Kwame doesn't get it.
He doesn't know who I am.
So let me make sure he knows who I am in this conversation.
And then it becomes really counterproductive.
So understanding the role that the ego will play in these conversations is going to be critical.
But I think also we have to step back and operate with a little bit of humility because our ego will come into play as well.
well what's a trigger follow -on question to that what would be a trigger to watch out for in ourselves if we're in that dynamic right like i mean is there certain i mean i guess our own keywords are always different but i mean there's got to be like an the feeling or something that we can like sense to make take a deep breath and step back from it for a second absolutely so new word for me this year so i'm not just trying to shoot out cool words okay but it's called called interoception and so it is your ability it's like your sixth sense but not in an eerie type of mystical type of way it is your
ability to understand what's happening in your body and so this is a a tool that we need to develop and cultivate in ourselves so we can understand our emotional responses because different emotions will manifest themselves very differently in difficult conversations and the way it will manifest for me is going to be different from way it manifests for you and so we have to be able to really look back and be um open enough and vulnerable enough with ourselves to recognize hmm i deviated from the strategy at this point of the conversation what happened what was i feeling so now that feeling becomes
familiar and i can say you know what what i'm about to say doesn't have any legitimate strategic purpose i'm just trying to put myself over somebody and then put them down in the process and i know for me if i'm being completely honest it's when lawyer kwame shows up and so i remember i had i did something that i was afraid of doing um in on uh in february of this year on the podcast something people have been asking for that i never let happen and it was allowing whitney my wife to come on the podcast and she did exactly what i was afraid she was going to do She told the truth.
And so I asked folks on LinkedIn, hey, what's one question you want Whitney to ask me or you want me to ask Whitney?
And so I had to put on my interview mode hat.
It's like, Kwame, you're a podcaster.
And they said, what's it like to be married to a negotiation expert?
Her word, awful. She's like, awful.
Because you're needlessly combative and things like that.
I just said, all right, I will say that I do demonstrate those behaviors, but let's not conflate these identities.
That's Kwame the lawyer that you're mad at, not Kwame the negotiator, because when I'm having these effective conversations, then, you know, there's an approach. I'm going to be listening.
But when Kwame the litigator, the lawyer comes out, that's my ego.
And I will try to mask that in terms of like intellectual superiority in the the forms of arguments that are difficult to overcome despite the fact that I'm flagrantly wrong.
You know, so I think it's just important to have that level of self -awareness to recognize, oh yeah, what you're about to say is not legit.
So being able to just calm down and slow it down a bit is really important.
Awesome. Yeah. Cool.
What do you do when the other side goes back on their negotiated deal?
So first of all, any type of deal that you have, you should get it and writing number one and I'm talking any type of deal even if this is just a conversation between friends just send a follow -up text message that's it it doesn't need to be in legalese or anything but just make sure that you have something written down because when it comes to psychology we have to understand how memory works there is one thing three words I'll give you everything you need to know about memory in three words all right right we have paper there so write this down okay memory Memory is bad.
Memory is really bad.
Pops will tell you that all the time.
Witnesses, yeah. Exactly, like comically bad.
So my undergrad degree is in psychology.
And there, if you want to look up, yeah, exactly, right?
And so if you want to look up a really interesting study, look up the studies from Elizabeth Loftus.
There's actually a formula to create false memories in people.
like memory is very pliable and so when you think about just the reality that sometimes people have convenient memories where they don't remember things that don't serve them in the moment but then also the reality we all have biased memories every time we go back and try to recover that memory it becomes more warped and more biased in our favor and so a lot of times when people go back on their negotiated deal we might think this is a bad person they're lying they're being manipulative or underhanded or it might just be somebody genuinely trying to remember and remembering incorrectly, you know?
So I think what we have to do is gently assume positive intent and just say, hey, based on that text message I sent you or that email, this is what I'm, this is what we agreed upon.
I'm a little bit confused because right now you're saying this, and in the past you're saying that.
Can you help me to understand it?
And that's a more humble approach that allows somebody to still be vulnerable because think about the way that this phrase, what do you do when the other side goes back on their negotiated deal that assumes some negative intent.
So we bring that attitude to the conversation.
It's like, you said this, and now you're saying that you're a liar.
Now the person has no choice but to defend themselves.
And we can't really hash this out in a meaningful type of way.
Right. So seeking to understand.
Bingo. Hello, my friends.
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position, most likely you did something wrong.
Think about it. Because most likely you had some kind of sense of the personalities that are going to be in the room.
And then you put all of these personalities together and said, let me hope for the best. No, that's on you.
Okay. So let's take some ownership.
Because if you find yourself in this situation, I don't know what you want me to do with it.
This is a horrible situation, right?
And as a lawyer, sometimes people would go in and and they start their negotiation, they try to save some money.
They're like, let me try to negotiate this myself.
Oop, broke the relationship.
Kwame, come in and save this.
I'm like, listen, I'm not a magician.
So, in this situation, what we need to do, the best strategy is to make sure you don't find yourself in this situation.
So, let's go back to what I talked about during the presentation with coalition building.
You have to have these one -on -one negotiations with each individual person before, and then you also not just negotiate for the specific substantive outcome you're trying to go for, in this situation, you have to be negotiating first and foremost for the process.
This process that's described up here does not work.
And it's not going to be surprising when it doesn't work.
And so you have to figure out what is the process, the procedure that we need to follow that puts us in a position, not just to get what we want, but puts us in a position to be able to actually have a productive conversation.
Because if you put people who are stubborn in a room who just trigger each other.
It's going to be hard for anybody, regardless of their level of skill, to have a productive conversation out of that situation.
Makes sense. What else have we got?
Where's that return button?
Yeah, let's press enter and see what we got.
Do you like that? I said the return button.
Return. I mean, was that like typing class in my senior year of high school?
I think I just dated myself.
Awesome. okay we got another good one how do we negotiate with somebody who is irrational you we are stressed out real talkers okay i can tell we have a lot of human issues we need an intervention are you all okay okay goodness okay so let's go back to my mediation days so for me as a mediator it was really fun because i got to be in the middle of the conflict so people would talk to me and i would do these mediations where i would talk to one side just independently solo and then i would talk to the other side because believe it or not when you put people who hate each other together other in a room,
bad things tend to happen.
Kind of like the previous question.
Exactly. Wild, right?
So my favorite mediations were the ones who would end up like this.
They would be very frustrated.
They'll tell the story.
They'd give me all the facts and why they believe that they're right.
And then they would end it by saying, and the other side is being completely irrational.
Great. Cool. Got it.
So I'll go to the other side and have the conversation.
They would lay out all the facts and why they're right.
And then they would end it by saying, and the other side is being completely irrational, right?
I was like, oh, this is going to be fun.
This is going to be a fun one, right?
And so I think a lot of times when it comes to that feeling of irrationality, what I've determined in the heat of the moment, a lot of times, whether or not we believe somebody is irrational is whether or not they really agree with us on this sensitive issue.
And if they come to a different conclusion, the only way that they could have come to that conclusion is because they they are irrational.
And so what I would implore you to try to do is turn this into a game.
And so for me, I'm very competitive, which can be really bad in a conflict.
But if you can orient that competitiveness to a productive outcome, it can be really beneficial.
So I say to myself, if I have that thought, this person is being irrational, I say, man, I bet I can listen to this person well enough to understand where they're coming from.
I doubt that I'll agree with them, but I can understand how this logical progression makes sense to them.
And that's the beginning of empathy, right?
And so if you turn this into a game, you're like, hey, it's irrational to me.
It's appearing to be irrational.
And that must mean that I need to do some work to understand where the person is coming from, because it makes complete sense to them.
So I need to figure out how it makes sense to them.
And I think that changes the way that you listen to because a lot of times we listen from our perspective rooted in our own bias but instead if you try to listen from their own perspective, their perspective.
So even going as far as what do I look like to them?
What do they think about me?
Because everybody comes into these conversations with a story and usually it's a hero -villain arc.
I'm the hero, you're the villain.
They have a story too and sometimes we're the villain.
So we have to figure out what that means to them.
Right. This may take a little longer.
Exactly. And that's where patience comes in too.
Yeah. I got to borrow some.
Me too. Me too. Okay.
What else do we have?
We've like, we're going to do one more.
I know it says we only have a few seconds, but I'm going to ignore the clock for a little bit.
And we're going to answer two more questions.
What if somebody is yelling at you.
What do you do to calm them down?
I thought Callie was chill.
Yes. Tell them to calm down.
Listen. I remember one question I got.
Somebody said, what can we do to get somebody to calm down other than saying calm down?
Because never in the history of calming down has saying and calm down worked, right?
You know, but so what do you do?
So here's the thing.
We think about if you're having a conversation with somebody who speaks English as a second language and we're trying to communicate to them.
What do we often do?
We speak louder. Oh, you don't understand me?
You must be far away.
Doesn't make sense, right?
And so if somebody's yelling at me, the way that I interpret that is for whatever reason in this moment, this person does not feel heard, right?
And so they're trying to yell in order to get me to understand.
So that's where listening becomes a massive skill.
And sometimes I'll be completely vulnerable with them and say, listen, it sounds, I can tell that you're frustrated.
And I'm going to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what is leading to your frustration.
Can you please help me to understand?
And that just like, can you help me, help me to understand this?
Because a lot of times, we try to seem like we have it all together, like we know what we're talking about, and we're just flying blind to our own detriment and the detriment of the entire conversation.
And so, when I really don't understand, I'll let them know.
And when I can tell that they want to be heard, and I might say something, like, it seems like there's something that's being left unsaid.
What is it that you think that I need to know?
And I just want to be very open with them and let them know, hey, this is a safe place you can tell me, but a lot of times there's this inner toddler inside of people.
I love my inner three -year -old.
I know her very well.
The three -year -old thinks she's always right.
Right? And so they veil that inner toddler that's having a tantrum in professionalism, and that makes it really hard to read, but if you let them know, hey, you're safe, you can open up, you can talk to me, it's all good, and it takes time to invest in the relationship and the conversation to get to that point but again it goes back to patience because again when somebody yells at you we want to reciprocate right absolutely yeah so this is a tough one but it's really important too that's good okay one last question yes yes one more cool what is the degree of difficulty in negotiating with cultural
and politically conservative countries okay man man, I was like, oh, there's no, you know, irrational talk there.
And then this is, this is challenging.
So let's talk about this.
So let's talk about culture, what culture is and what it isn't.
A lot of times we have a very narrow perspective on what culture is.
We think about it in geographic terms, ethnicity, those types of things.
But let's talk about big C culture versus little C culture.
So big C culture that's nationalities, ethnicities, those types of things.
But little C culture is really just the way that we do things.
So your neighborhood has a culture.
Your school system has a culture.
If you go to a gym, the gym has a culture.
If you go to a yoga studio in the same city, that has a culture too.
And so you have to figure out the general way that we do things.
And a lot of times when we run into conflicts, they're really cross -cultural conflicts.
And when you think about little C culture and recognizing that they're are everywhere a lot of the the conflicts that we have even though they might be with people who look like us think like us and live in the same city it's still an intercultural conflict that we have to work out this is the way you do things this is the way i do things and so again you know i don't want to be a broken record here but it goes down to understanding but we have to understand the difference between cultural intelligence which is an actual skill that can be developed just like IQ.
There's EQ and CQ. And so, we have cultural intelligence and we have emotional intelligence.
Leave IQ aside. A lot of times we think that we could just bully people with our intellect and it doesn't work, right?
So, leave IQ aside.
EQ gives us the understanding and CQ gives us the cultural lens through which to understand the person.
We recognize that this person is an individual that will be impacted by the cultural lens that they're focused on and they come from too.
So the more I can understand that individual and at the same time the more I can understand their culture, then I can get a greater depth of understanding that can lead to mutual understanding between us too and then figure out what this situation means to them through that lens.
Because the way that they are perceiving the situation, even though we might be looking at the exact same thing, we have very different perspectives about that thing.
So it it has to start with understanding and then we have to recognize that we're not just negotiating for the substance we're negotiating to get um an overlap of our own little culture so i think really when it comes to cross -cultural negotiations and uh cultural conflict what we're negotiating for is the creation of our own little micro culture that works with our little relationship here and so i'm going to bring my authentic self me as a person with that cultural reference you're going to do the exact same thing and as part of this negotiation we're going to be negotiating to see what is a healthy
cultural that we can both share in this relationship too i like that i like that little c yeah because it's true we have them all everywhere we have a big c here which is not the car part and uh and we have a little c and we have our we have our overarching organization we have the so national then we have us at state then we have our locals and then all of that is based even on geography we're a really big state right and we were talking about that um this morning with my logo that it was the geography of california making sure that it's all seen and all represented because it's important as
a my mind anyways as a state association that we're keeping that all in mind in context as we make board decisions and negotiate at a board level right so um so that's a really awesome way to end on on that note yes my pleasure thanks for having me back this was fun oh look at that it's a little bit after five so the line for the booze is gonna be really long sorry guys all right so what oh yeah sorry all the presidents already drinking they didn't come back in here with us they're like forget it well this concludes day one of our conference and i hope y 'all had a wonderful time and i will see
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
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