This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself He Young.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Ding Hung in the studio.
Coming up, ever feel like you're paying for your job?
It's a trend called Dao Tia Shang Ban in Chinese.
This trend is where workers cover their own work expenses for things such as software, courses, or even client -related expenses.
Is this the cost of career growth?
Or should employers be picking up the tab?
And whether it's the world of pop culture, technology, or something that touches your heart, we're here to discuss in our Heart to Heart segment.
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Now let's switch gears.
Here is a question that's been buzzing around the web lately.
Should workers have to cover their own work -related expenses?
The term Dao Tia Shang Ban in Chinese, or paying for your job, has become a hot topic in discussions about the modern workplace, especially among younger generations.
From paying for online courses, to covering software costs, or even buying new business attire, what's the right balance between personal investment and fair compensation?
So guys, what constitutes as paying for or subsidizing your own job?
How thought here are we talking about?
Yeah, even the term, the term doesn't sound good, right?
Paying for your own job.
Well, I think it would encompass various practices or scenarios where employees incur expenses related to their daily jobs.
We're talking about, for example, direct financial outflows like purchasing software subscriptions, office supplies, the so -called professional way of addressing yourself, client entertainment.
If you are working in a company, I think that's important.
If you have to deal with your clients, with your partners, that's a very important issue.
Of course, travel expenses, software and technology.
Basically workers need to subscribe to paid software services or even providing their own computers in some cases.
For example, training and development, the career development, in the sense that many people or some people are paying for these professional training courses or certification to enhance their professional skills.
And also don't forget this level, it tends to be neglected in some circumstances.
Emotional labor, in the sense that you need to manage difficult colleagues or superiors, suppressing your personal feelings to help maintain a so -called positive work environment and engaging in those kind of unpaid working overtime, et cetera, et cetera.
That's an interesting one.
Everything you said up until that point about software subscriptions and office supplies and how to dress for work, buying your own clothes and getting extra certificates to help your career, all of that made sense.
This one I had never heard of before, emotional labor, where you have to emotionally support your coworkers.
I'm not sure if that comes under subsidizing your own job or not.
But yeah, when we talk about this is a really divisive issue.
And I think that the reason it's a divisive issue is because, as you mentioned, Dinkum, there's just so many different areas where this becomes a question, right?
If you want to have a really nice pen for your desk, well, whose responsibility is that?
Is it the company's responsibility to get you a really nice pen, or does that fall on you because you want a really nice pen, not just any old run -of -the -mill pen?
There's lots of different ways to talk about this.
Okay, let me give you an example.
Because for most office workers these days, you have to use the computer.
But if your office computer just is so slow, and like Dinkum mentioned, you have to read these international publications.
You feel like you would do a better job if you do that, but if your company isn't really providing that, and also for an average office worker, if my chair, the one that's provided by the company, doesn't offer any limber support, and you're just struggling sitting in that wooden chair, then would you
get your own one? And Steve, you're from Canada, and you've been around the world.
Like how would you or your fellow peers at home feel about this?
Would they succumb and buy their own stuff, pay this money?
Well, I looked this up.
My gut reaction before I looked up anything was the Canadian...
It's hard to talk about the whole country because...
Of course. But just for generalization's sake, I think the Canadian response to this would be, no.
I'm not going to use my own money for work, that's ridiculous.
If you want me to work slowly on a bad computer, then I'm going to work slowly on a bad computer.
If you want me to do better, then buy me a new computer.
I think that would be the general response.
But I did. I wanted to go deeper than my own personal opinion, so I looked it up.
I found a Canadian HR human resources website called HRReporter .com.
And I thought this was interesting.
They say, on average, Canadians spend $26 per day or $6 ,760 per year to go to the office full time.
That was according to a report that was released in 2022.
I've never thought about doing math like that.
The cost of going to work.
It's quite interesting to think about.
Yes, and what does that comprise of?
Well, if you think about...
Well, if we just think about our own daily lives, right?
The commute to work.
And again, those were for people who go to the office full time every day.
Gas to put in your car or public transportation costs or getting your lunch if it's not provided by the company.
And in Canada, as far as I know, a lot of companies don't provide lunch for their employees.
Just all the dollars you spend throughout the day just to go to and from work and the time in between as well.
Well, that's... Many of these issues are...
There is really a blurred line between these things.
Are we talking about our daily life or our daily drop?
Yeah. For example, if you want to park your car in a parking lot and somehow your company does not provide a free parking lot for your car.
Okay. So, I'll get to how Canada kind of defines this whole thing.
So this is from a Canadian government website.
Reimbursement of work...
And I'm going to read to you exactly what it said on the website.
Reimbursement of work -related expenses requires employers to reimburse employees for reasonable work -related expenses paid out of pocket by the employee, and they have to pay that back within specific time limits.
An expense must be reimbursed by the employer when it meets all eligibility criteria.
Okay, so you're thinking, what's the eligibility criteria?
Here it is. To be eligible to be reimbursed by your company, an expense must meet the following four criteria.
The employee does not have to pay for the expense because it was agreed upon between the employee and the company.
The employee has to have had the paid expense out of pocket.
It has to be related to work, and it has to be reasonable.
As long as those four criteria are met, it is within reason to request...
Not only request that your company pay for that, but it's Canadian law that they have to.
It's good to have that law.
And don't you feel that you might see it a little differently?
Like if I'm paying for the bus ride or taxi fare to come to work, then it's like, all right, maybe I'll pay for my monthly income.
That seems to be maybe okay.
But sometimes it's tacitly asked you to pay for the computer or the chair, the software, those kind of things.
And then that becomes a major discussion point for people.
And some feel like, okay, I'll pay for it.
And others feel, no, hell no.
Am I going to pay for that in China?
So how do you see this?
Yeah. Yeah, I guess there is really a shift here in the sense that it is really reflecting a kind of transformation in terms of how work is perceived with the younger generation increasingly viewing their work as a sort of transactional exchange of time and skill for fair compensation.
I guess the younger generation of professionals are increasingly unwilling to shoulder the costs associated with their jobs, like all those things we have mentioned.
And this is really reflecting a heightened awareness of personal finances and a desire to avoid, say, financial burden, financial strain caused by all those work -related expenditures.
Let's go through a few of these expenditures to see what we think is reasonable and what we think isn't reasonable.
Software subscription.
Do you think that's a reasonable request?
I don't think at all.
Yeah, it should be provided by your employees.
I need to pay for the latest edition of Word so I can process your documents for work.
Hell no. Okay, so we agree that's a company expense.
Office supplies, pens, pencils, stick -it notes, things like that.
Well, I like some fancy stationery.
Oh, okay. Well, then that's on you.
I can bring my own for that.
I'm okay. As long as the pencil works, I'm fine with it.
And also, the A for paper.
Yeah, right. For the script, no.
No. No. Okay, so we're divided on that one.
Client entertainment.
What is it? Like, paying to take clients out?
To lunch or dinner or something like that.
That's a tough one.
Yeah, that's a tough one.
In our industry, radio, if you want to invite someone to come to the studio to join our show, you pay him the money.
Sometimes we go. For his contribution.
Sometimes it's like ...
because to be on the platform is something that the guest willingly wants to do, so therefore, sometimes it's not transactional, monetary -wise.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Here's a big example of that.
You know the National Football League?
Have you ever heard of the Super Bowl?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, the performers that perform there, like Beyonce or Bruno Mars, they don't get paid.
They don't get paid.
They don't get paid for that.
Because the exposure is so much for them.
It's like 40, 50 million people watch that.
But for a lot of people who work in sales, for example, why does this client come to you and not some other company, right?
And then you have to build connection, Guamsi, and that's ...
yeah. Yeah, on that, I think it really ...
at least it should be subsidized by your company.
I think 100 % should be paid by the company.
But what if the company's being really anal in saying ...
well, in not saying anything and just go like, oh, Steve, if you want to boost your sales and be employee of the year, you have to work it out and you have to be devoted to your job.
You got to be going the extra mile than your other colleague.
You figure that out.
And this is the problem, and this is why this is such a hot topic, is because if you say, no, I am not going to pay for my client's coffee or something like that, or my client's lunch, to use that as an example, if the company doesn't provide that money, you, in my opinion, you are in total ...
it's totally fair for you to say no.
But here's the problem.
If your co -worker who is also eligible for the next promotion says, oh yeah, I'll cover that.
Don't worry about it.
Well, who's going to get the next promotion?
Maybe. Maybe. No, I know.
I know. That's how we all sink.
Yeah. That's how you ruin it for everyone.
So in a vacuum, it's easy to answer this question.
But in reality, it's not so easy.
And also for client entertainment, I guess it's pretty difficult to set a standard, like if you take this client, go out for some entertainment, how much money you should be spending on this very occasion?
Like, if you can use a 300 yuan for a dinner, but somehow you ended up spending 800 yuan?
Yeah. Yeah, and see, it is really complicated, actually.
I've recently talked to a friend who works in, OK, he works in the legal business, but you need to get clients.
And then apparently he told me like recently, let's say for only, quote unquote, only 30 ,000 yuan was the amount of total payment he was going to get from this case, this client.
And it's not a lot of money in the legal business, but he had to take his clients out for like a thank you dinner or something afterwards.
And he said he spent like more, definitely more than a thousand.
So that's quite an amount.
And I was like, that doesn't make any sense in business numbers wise.
And he's like, hey, you don't understand.
I mean, it's tough out there.
And I really need to get this client because this time, maybe this is only this amount of money that I can actually earn.
Or maybe I'm operating in red.
But if this client can come back to me in the future, maybe with a bigger case, then that's how I make my big bucks.
And but don't you feel as you know, you're the inferior one in this business transaction and you just feel to keep my job, to keep my position, to forward, to advance, then you're kind of you're kind of kidnapped in a way that you feel you're compelled, you're coerced without anybody actually shackling
you down. But you're doing it.
What about the professional attire, the clothing side of things?
What do you think about that?
I have so much to say about this, but you go first please.
I feel like it should be provided or at least you.
You think the company should pay for your clothes?
We should wear uniforms.
If it's a work uniform, of course.
I mean, work uniform.
Yeah, work uniform.
And if you are if you are a TV host and your regular appearance on TV screens, all those suits, ties, yeah, it should be subsidized, financially subsidized, like your company give you some money and you buy them on your own.
If you're a TV show host, that clothing, does that stay in the department at the company or are those clothes that you can take home with you and wear on your own time?
No, that's an important distinction.
Okay, yes. Well, yeah, again, that's a difficult question, huh?
Because if you need to sign a contract with the company, if it stays at the station, right, then it belongs to the company, then they should pay for it.
But if you're going to be out at your friend's birthday party in the expense of TV show host suit, I'm not so sure that falls on the company or not.
But I think in a bigger picture sense, there was a time that workers here in China used to be more tolerant of shuttering these extra costs, like my parents' generation, maybe, because back then they were facing a totally different, not totally different, but very much different economic context, maybe.
Like previous generations might have experienced different economic realities with lower wages, for example, and a great emphasis on collectivity, collective benefits versus your personal benefits.
Company loyalty. Job security, those kinds of stuff.
So but nowadays, the younger generation, this kind of mindset mentality is, I'm not saying it's fading away, but we have more thoughts.
And also, we aren't placing blames whatsoever here, but the employers have a role to play here as well in the sense that we don't have the kind of job security that Chinese people used to enjoy in the planned economy era, for example, or 20 years ago.
And then if you're not feeling that security, then no wonder younger workers are feeling otherwise.
Yeah. So if you don't have that sense of security in your position, then you probably feel like, why would I bother investing in my career with this particular company when I'm not so investing yourself?
But that could mean, OK, pay out of your own pocket and join those online courses.
Anyway, I think it's really interesting, like there are just different ways of looking at this.
But also at the back of my mind, I just think for the companies to have the audacity or the expectation to think that, oh, a fair number of your employees are going to cave in in shouldering this cost.
That is like a major no -no in my world.
What about the the clothing?
You said you had a lot to say about that.
What's your opinion?
How much longer do we have for this show?
How much longer? I've been subsidizing myself from beginning to end.
I know because I refuse to wear a uniform to work.
Where's the room for creativity and expression?
And yeah, so for me, see, who cares more loses?
Yes, yes, that's the golden rule.
In a relationship and for work as well.
And I just care that much.
Coming up, let's have a moment of heart to heart.
You ask. We answer.
Roundtable, heart to heart.
For today's heart to heart segment, we will start with a voice memo from our listener, Winter.
Hello, Hui Yang, Yoo Hong -Ling, Steve Haggly, Yuxuan, Lai Ming and all of the hosts from Roundtable China.
I'm Winter from Jiangxi Province.
I just started to listen to Roundtable China since July this year.
You must have no idea how much your podcast has helped me.
I work in the foreign affairs office of my provincial government, and the English speaking for me is not a better to have skill, but a must -have one.
You may already know that spoken English is the weakest part for most Chinese students, though I majored in English at university.
I still lack of confidence to speak out and don't know how to express myself correctly and precisely.
Do you know how I learned from you?
I just repeat what you said simultaneously, word by word, when I was driving to work and back home every day.
Through this process, I think I have cultivated a sense of speaking English as well as built my confidence.
And you not only helped me in improving my spoken English, but also broadening my horizon.
Your podcast almost covers all industries, from technology to medicine to education to gaming to shopping and to everything.
There are some trends or niche fields that I have never heard of before.
I've really learned a lot from you guys.
And I'll keep listening as long as you keep hosting Roundtable China.
Thank you so much for having such a wonderful program.
Thank you so much, winter from Jiangxi Province.
I was laughing when I was listening to winter's message.
Thank you, winter, for it, by the way.
But I was laughing because she says that she repeats everything we said.
And about two minutes ago, who said, I have been subsidizing myself.
So I just imagine winter driving in her car.
It makes me blush so much, you know?
I hope you're not repeating a lot of the things I'm saying.
You have to get the tone, too.
The tone is important.
Just quickly, winter, sorry to interrupt, quickly, winter, on your comment about how you feel a little shy to express yourself in English.
Winter, I can promise you that native English speakers don't care at all if you make a grammar, your vocabulary.
Nobody cares. Just be yourself and be confident.
And nobody's judging you.
I promise you on that.
And it's really heartwarming to hear this message from this winter listener.
I mean, if you are a frequent listener to a certain show or a certain channel, it can really indeed really have a huge influence on you.
Somehow, this message from winter reminds me of my days as a student, as a college student, especially the early years of my college, as somebody who came to Beijing from a small city.
I turned on the radio in my dorm and I heard English language radio shows on air, which is us, CRI at the time, right?
It was really an amazing experience because at the time, back in my hometown, I had no access, no way to access English language radio shows.
So somehow that amazement motivated me to study hard.
And after I graduated, I was able to join what was then China Radio International and somehow make my voice become part of the channel here.
And it's really a great sense of pride and fulfillment.
And that's really a personal experience I'd like to share in response.
Very cool. Yeah. And this could be motivational Monday content, you know, and it's just so great to hear that from you.
And what a journey, but, you know, so inspiring for others at the same time.
Thank you, Dinghong.
Yeah. And we also have dipped into our mailbag.
And here's an email from our listener, David Kwon.
Here's the email. Hi, roundtable team.
I've been daydreaming about our roundtable discussions lately, envisioning them as cozy video chats where we're all sipping tea and chatting away.
I'm curious to know if you've ever thought about transforming your sessions into such a warm and intimate video chat format.
Well, thank you, David, for writing in.
And I think that's a brilliant idea.
Can somebody please reimburse the costs of buying a new makeup set and also fancy clothes?
So I think she's talking to you, David.
And also nice clothes.
So I do I do no shame for the roundtable show to have nice clothing to match the show's standard.
I know what you mean, David.
I think it's a great idea as well.
So if you're listening to the show and you agree with David, then get in touch with Roundtable and share your support for that idea.
I really like it. I have shows that I listen to as well through podcast, but they also do video formats, too.
And sometimes I like to watch the video format because I like to see the faces of the people that of the show that I enjoy.
So yeah, I like your idea, David.
So video content is definitely more costly in terms of budget, manpower and the preparation you need it for the show.
So I guess it's not easy to transform our daily shows into video products, but I guess for some special occasions, for some special episodes, we are already doing that in terms of rolling out the content on multimedia platforms.
And also, in fact, in 2017 and 2018, we used to do livestreams of this show, but due to limited budgets and stuff.
Yeah, and also, I mean, our listeners, our viewers, you need to come and watch, you know, if the numbers aren't like fantastic, then, you know, it's like any business, you need to justify to your superiors or whatnot and get the support you need.
But yeah, that's a really that's a great email.
And thank you for reaching out, David.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
You guys have a beautiful day.
We will see you next time.
