From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Today on the show, I'm talking to Joan Price.
Joan is 82 years old, and I gotta tell you, she is the sexiest 82-year-old I have ever met.
When she sat down to talk to me, she had bottles of lube lined up in the background.
This is Joan's whole thing.
She's a senior sex educator.
She teaches people how to stay in touch with their desire as they get older.
But a while back, Joan lost touch with her own sexuality.
When her husband died, she felt alienated from her body.
She was numb.
She couldn't have orgasms.
She couldn't feel the things she wanted to feel.
And she knew she had to do something.
She ended up writing a book about sex and grief.
And that's why I wanted to talk to her to learn more about this connection between two things that feel so opposite.
But as we talked I realized what Joan has to say can apply to anybody, even if you haven't lost someone.
Because most of us have had moments where we've lost touch with our desire.
And according to Joan, we can find our way back.
Joan Price, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you, Anna.
I'm so honored to be here.
I'm so excited to be talking to you.
So, Joan, you are a senior sex educator.
This is your job.
What kinds of questions do you get from seniors about sex?
Very often it is what I call under the umbrella of the old ways don't work the way they did before.
And it's that I always used to reach orgasm this way, but now I can't even do this way.
Interesting, like physically I can't even do this way.
Yes, yes.
This is what I liked the best and now my joints won't let me even do that again.
You know, it's never just about sex.
But it is about sex.
And so often doctors and even therapists will avoid the subject of sex if it is an aging person.
Hmm. think they're scared of?
I mean, and this is of course you know, I am not a doctor, nor are you, but what are you sensing, either in your own experience or from readers?
Why is sex like a topic to stay away from when someone gets older?
Oh boy, it's what I call the ick factor often, which is, ew, people having sex, that's disgusting.
I would want you anyway.
And I get that.
I mean, I don't personally get that anymore, because I have a real response to that, which is at what age do you plan to retire your genitals?
Old people are not the other.
They are you, if you're lucky enough not to die first.
And if your sexuality is valuable to you now...
Why do you think there's this arbitrary date when, okay, I don't care about that anymore?
I want to sort of let that sink in because it is, I mean, it's hitting me.
Old people are not the other.
They're you, right?
If you're lucky.
If you're lucky.
I mean, talking to you, it's clear that you are affirmed in your sexuality.
You want to help people also get in touch with their bodies, with their sexuality.
Have you always been a sex positive person?
I went through a lot of phases in my life, Anna.
And I was in long-term relationships sometimes.
I was in monogamous relationships often until...
I was in my late 30s, early 40s.
I had had a very serious relationship dump me and I felt I just needed to go wild for a while and I kind of liked it.
What did going wild look like to you?
Going wild looked like I had three friends with benefits at the same time.
Yes, you did.
There were times in that period, over a few years, that I had a few – I got to tell you about this part –
Please.
I was dating two cousins who lived together.
And one time I had a date, and they knew about each other.
I mean, they'd had me to dinner.
I was going to say, how did you?
I don't remember how I met them.
Probably dancing.
That's how I met everybody in those days.
But one time...
I had a date with one and then the other a little later.
Never both at the same time.
And so I had just had a lovely interlude with one.
And then I watched him leave my, I watched out the window.
He left my house, went to the parking lot where his cousin had just arrived.
They shook hands, Anna.
They shook hands.
And then the second one came in.
That was kind of the high point of my wild child at early 40s.
What did you learn about yourself in this phase of experimentation?
Well, for one thing, I learned that Every man is different in what he gives, what he wants, what he likes, how he sounds his utterances.
I mean, I just, it was almost like a research study.
It wasn't random.
You know, I chose these guys.
It wasn't just hookups, but there were also hookups.
Yeah.
And what I learned was I can adapt to these different styles.
I also learned what I didn't want.
There was one time I brought someone home after an evening of dancing and we'd focused on each other and it just felt very erotic.
And he came home with me and then I didn't like it at all.
I didn't like what he wanted to do, what he wanted me to do, how selfish he was.
And so I sent him home.
That also feels like you've perhaps reached a level of self-assurance.
You're like, if I'm not enjoying this, I'm not going to gut it out.
I'm going to say, all right, this was cool.
See you at the dance studio.
Like, bye-bye.
Which it sounds like is what you did.
And it was a tough learning.
It didn't come automatic at all.
You know, I was one of these people.
You can't talk during sex.
It breaks the mood or, you know, I don't know how to talk during sex.
I don't know how.
And I realized along my journey that that mind reading is vastly overrated.
And that's one of the lessons I try to teach people.
Say it.
What's the worst that can happen?
He might say no.
But if you don't ask, the answer's always no.
Huh.
You know, this wild phase you said started maybe late 30s, early 40s.
And then I guess I wonder, like, as you got older...
We spoke about readers writing in and asking you like hey, things don't work the way they used to anymore.
Did you have your own moment, maybe as you were getting older, of realizing like huh, things are looking or feeling or working differently for me when it comes to sex?
What happened was a bit later.
It was probably in my late 40s.
When I was going through perimenopause and then menopause and I realized that I had become invisible as a sexual being.
It was really devastating because here I was and I thought look, I'm the best I've ever been in all ways, in terms of self-knowledge, in terms of what I have to give, in terms of what I've lived, what I understand, what I welcome, what I offer.
And now, why are the very men that I'm interested in just looking over my head when they talk to me?
Now, that's easy to do because I'm only 4'10", but that wasn't...
That wasn't the reason.
They were just, you know, looking for someone.
They're hardwired to seek fertility.
They don't know it.
They don't intentionally do it.
But they are.
And that was pretty devastating.
And I had to kind of pull back and say, well, oh, what do I do with this?
I think this is probably a good time to ask you about meeting Robert.
Oh, yes.
Thank you.
You can see from my face that's what I love to talk about.
I met Robert at age 57 after a long period of being unpartnered.
And I was teaching my line dance class.
And this beautiful, beautiful man walked in.
He was, I learned later, 64 years old, remarkably fit, remarkably handsome, with ocean blue eyes and snow white hair, and his shirt was open a few inches and I could see the tufts of his white chest hair and I wanted to pull open his shirt.
I'm signing him in for a new line dance class.
I am welcoming him, and all I could do is stare in his eyes or at his chest.
I thought, oh, my God, what's happening to me here?
I was so totally in lust that I kept losing my place in the dance I was teaching.
And do you sense, is he looking at you in this first class or what can you sense about his vibe?
At the time, all I could sense is he was a very dedicated dancer and his hips, his hips.
I couldn't take my eyes off him.
Everybody kept staring at him.
And I learned later he had been dancing since the age of two tap dancing ballet, modern dance, musical theater and I just couldn't.
It was like there was a spotlight on him the whole evening.
And I thought, oh, may he please come back?
Because I wasn't in a position to proposition the guy from his first attending the dance floor.
Well, he did keep coming back.
And he would take walks with me after class.
At my invitation, I'd say, you know, I'd love to know you better.
Do you feel like taking a walk after class tonight?
Yeah, I can do that for a while.
And we'd talk, but never very personally.
He would tell me about the English gardens he'd seen and all that.
And I said, well, okay.
I don't know.
I don't know.
He could be gay.
He might have a partner.
He might not be attracted to me.
He might not see me in that way.
He might not be aware of these lust arrows I'm sending at him.
And flash forward to nine months after one of our walks, I came home and I emailed him.
Okay.
I love it.
This is my best email of all time.
Robert, I'm really enjoying getting to know you.
I love you as a dancer.
I love you as an emerging friend.
And I got to tell you I can't help imagining what it would be like to dance with you without footwork.
Oh, my God.
Oh my, I mean, and... So you're, I mean, let's just be clear for those who need to decode it.
You're saying basically, I can't stop thinking about wanting to sleep with you.
Yes.
And... All right, you're going to be surprised at this.
He responded oh, before that I have to say, at the end of the email I said if you're not interested please, we'll just continue our friendship.
Forget.
I said this.
It won't damage my ego at all which, with that part, was a lie, but I had to say it.
And then he responded with, thank you.
I'm flattered.
I am attracted to you too.
Patter, patter, patter goes my heart.
You'll probably hear it.
Patter, patter, patter.
He said, but I see you as my dance teacher.
Those are lines I never thought I'd cross.
And can we just get to know each other a little better first?
I don't rush into sex quickly.
Quickly?
Nine months later?
And I am this person whose motto is the only problem with instant gratification is it takes too long.
So I said, of course.
You got it.
No problem.
This man is worth whatever it takes.
If later it doesn't work, okay, but I've got to give it.
I've got to meet him where he is.
And then after an hour or two, I got another email.
I've changed my mind.
No, what?
Maybe it's time for these old parts.
And we made a date for two days later to go for another walk.
And after that walk, we sat at a park bench and we kissed and kissed.
How was the kiss?
Oh, it was glorious.
I was dizzy. with exhilaration from this kiss.
I cannot stop kissing this man ever.
And two days after that, we had our first sex date at his house.
Stay with us.
Stay with us.
Thank you.
You'd mentioned that you were in this experimental phase before Robert.
You were having sex with a bunch of different people.
And then you find Robert and you make this connection.
I love the repeat email.
Him being like, we need to wait.
Two hours later being like, I'm done waiting.
Let's do this.
I mean, it's just like it could not be more fabulous and wonder.
It just really could not.
But in any case...
Being intimate with Robert, did anything surprise you about that sexual connection?
Like, were there things you liked as a 50... You were what at this time when you met him?
57, you said?
57.
57?
57-year-old that you wouldn't have liked when you were younger?
Like, did anything surprise you about the sex you were having with Robert?
Oh, yes.
What was really different...
Part of it was just because he was new and a real powerful, powerful lust object for nine months is that every part of it was a discovery.
Every part of it was a discovery, from finally getting to see the chest hair and finally getting to touch it.
It still remains one of my favorite things in our whole relationship is that chest hair.
And then little by little, discovering how each other's bodies worked.
There was no goal.
There was no rush to the finish.
We didn't know if there'd be a finish or what it would look like.
It was just, wow, this feels good.
Does this feel good?
One of the things that I discovered about myself now being in a new relationship and being 57 instead of 42 is that my body responded so much more slowly.
My brain was excited, was tingling, was sending fireworks, but my body was really slow to catch up.
And finally, at one point, I realized I'm embarrassed about this and it's delaying me even more.
And so I said Robert, I'm fretting that you are getting tired or bored, or this is just taking too long.
And he said oh, I don't care if it takes three weeks, as long as I can take breaks to change positions and get something to eat.
It sounds like you're so in love with each other and you're so sexually in touch with each other.
When you were locked in to an intimate moment with Robert, what was going through your mind?
Everything in me was saying this is where I'm meant to be.
This is what I'm meant to be doing.
This is the person's eyes I'm meant to be gazing into.
How special to feel that, Joan, really.
I know from your book, you and Robert got married and then, two years after you got married, Robert passed.
That must have been incredibly difficult.
It was the hardest thing that's ever happened to me.
He had been diagnosed with cancer and it was under control for a time and then it wasn't.
And we got married, knowing that we had limited time together, and it was the right thing to do, because our relationship deepened after that.
You know, it's just, it's like you trace this beautiful intimate deep, sexy love story, the love of your life.
You know, meeting him, learning about him, learning about yourself.
Yeah.
And then, I mean, you lose him, you lose him too soon.
What was that time like for you?
You said it was the hardest time in your life.
If you can bring me into, bring me into that time.
The night he died, we knew it was imminent.
We had a caregiver in the other room so that I could go in and out.
And Robert started making throaty noises.
And the caregiver said, it's almost time.
If you have something to say to him, say it now.
So I stood and held his hand and told him everything, probably way too much, because there were times he'd been in and out of consciousness and I'd talk to him and he'd come out of it saying boy, you talk a lot.
I mean, it was really sweet, though.
He would also say things like Remember when we walked and walked and I knew the name of every flower.
And so that night I told him all I could think of.
And then I went, got into my bed, which was next.
He had a hospital bed at that point in the bedroom.
And so I went to bed.
And then, when I realized he'd stopped breathing And we called hospice, which we were supposed to do,
They'll come over and take care of things.
We'd made arrangements and all.
And they arrived.
They said, you can have some time with him if you need it.
And I said, I do.
And I got in bed with Robert's dead body.
And I put my hand on the chest hair that I loved so much, and it became warm under my head.
And I thought, is this the power of love, that it can warm a dead body?
I still can't explain it, and if anyone can, I don't want to hear it.
I want my version.
And then finally it was time to take him away.
And...
And then I went into an absolute profound, profound depression where I could barely function.
I would cry all day and then pick myself together an hour before I had to go to line dancing and go teach the class, because that's where he was.
He was on the dance floor.
He was kind of floating above it a little, but I could see him.
And no matter what direction I turned, there he was in front of me.
So I needed that.
And then after, I totally lost track of time here, but I was just in drastic state and I
I finally realized one day I could not stop crying in time to teach the class.
And I called my HMO and I said, I can't stop crying.
And they said, are you suicidal?
And I said, oh, no, no.
Will you hurt yourself?
No, no.
And they gave me an appointment with a psychiatrist quickly who prescribed an antidepressant.
I can't remember now which one.
Everything's foggy.
But that was very helpful.
I still could barely do basic functions.
It is totally a privilege to hear about that and to in some way just share in your experience of that, even though it is I mean, it's devastating, but I appreciate you letting me in.
I really do.
I'm grateful for the opportunity because, even though you see I'm crying, it's important for other people to realize oh, I am normal.
This happens.
And look, look at her now.
So obviously there's hope for me too.
How did your body feel as you were grieving?
Numb.
It shut down.
You know, I was aware I'm a sex educator and know this stuff of how much of a release sex can be or an orgasm can be.
I didn't need another person for that.
I was aware of how it's a stress reliever, how it will kind of ground you, how it'll help you sleep.
And I just thought, no, no.
Wouldn't work.
That numbness, did it start to fade?
And if so, when and how did that happen?
It didn't start to fade until my third grief counselor, who was a remarkable older woman who I just felt so comfortable with.
And I said to her, I know I should Bring back solo sex into my life here.
I know it would help me.
Because you hadn't been masturbating or self-pleasuring at all since?
I had not.
And I told her, I just, I feel so numb.
I don't even know if it would work.
And she said, if you have a vibrator, it'll work.
And I tell people that all the time.
I was just going to say, the grief counselor says that to the sex educator.
I tell everybody that.
Hello, Joan.
Open your ears to what you know.
And she was right.
That did work.
And then I started a regular practice and got myself back into having regular orgasms and all that that brings.
It made me cry because I couldn't help but picture it was Robert who wasn't there, who was there but wasn't there.
Can you tell me, I mean, that feels extremely intense to me, like reigniting your body and your desire, but at the same time, in that you know reigniting, getting so much closer to grief.
This is a feeling you felt with Robert.
Just tell me about that experience.
Well, in my fantasies, when I was pleasuring myself, I could only clear my mind, and just.
Our minds are always interfering with everything, including sex.
And the only way I could just make my mind go vacant and receive is if I imagined it was Robert pleasuring me.
And that made me cry, but I also would just keep going with that.
Here he is.
Here he is.
You can enjoy him again.
You can enjoy him again.
Anytime.
Yes, it's different.
Yes.
Oh, okay.
Of course you're screaming please Robert, don't be dead anymore, which I actually screamed aloud over and over again, many times.
You can't have that.
But what can you have?
While you're here with this circumstance, what can you do about it?
And that's what I figured out.
You're existing in this space where, like, everything hurts, right?
Everything, you can't stop crying.
It's just, it's like wall-to-wall pain.
And then to reintroduce pleasure into that space must be quite complicated.
I wonder, did you?
I don't know this might be a projection, but like, did you feel guilty for feeling pleasure?
I mean, what were the emotions that were coming up as you began to, as you began to engage with whole sex again?
I was relieved.
Relieved.
I was relieved.
I said, oh, my body isn't dead.
And, in fact, what really brought me to life at one point and this was sometime in where I had continued to use vibrators but not the least bit interested in inviting another person into my body.
And then I had this dream that I was walking with a man that I didn't in real life recognize.
He was walking behind me and holding me.
I don't know how dreams make it possible, but I could feel his erection through his clothes behind me.
And I started getting aroused.
Aroused.
And then I woke up and I sat up and I said, I'm alive.
What did this dream, what did it signal to you?
What did it mean?
That I can be aroused by another person.
That I want that to happen when I might be ready.
Because he was arousing me.
I didn't do it on my own there.
And I really was aroused when I woke up.
Your body was awake.
Your body was awake.
My body was awake.
And it was as if there was a life force that I tapped into that I'd tamped down before.
I'd said, no, I don't want to hear from you.
I'm too busy being devastated.
Don't even try.
And I realized that we have this inner resilience that will emerge eventually.
You know, it's like this seed that's been planted in there and it's struggling to make its way out of the dirt.
You keep piling more dirt on, it's going to have even more trouble getting through it.
And then finally say, okay, I'll stop piling and just see what happens if I watch this spot.
And oh, hello.
We'll be right back.
Thank you.
You know, masturbation is one thing, but being ready for a new partner having sex, that's not just all sex.
Having sex with someone else is a totally different thing.
How did you begin to navigate that?
Very, very slowly, with a lot of starts and stops.
What I realized along this process which took years— is that there is a timeline for getting back into sex.
But no one knows what it is.
And it's different for everyone.
And this is one of the main things I teach in Sex After Grief and otherwise that don't let anyone tell you you should be dating by now.
Don't let anyone tell you it's too soon to date.
I mean, we get all these horrible messages that clamp us down again.
Only you can tell when you're ready.
And when you think you're ready, maybe you are and maybe you're not.
So when you think you're ready, try something tentative and check in with yourself.
What I realized along this is that it isn't just going from no sex to everything goes.
It's step by step.
I didn't want a new partner.
I was firm on that.
There's no way because Robert was my great love.
Nothing can surpass that.
Everything else would just be compared to him.
It turned out that I wasn't telling the truth to myself, but I didn't know that.
But that's the next story.
But first – and so I try things.
I try – just having first dates with people.
Nah, nothing there.
I said well, maybe I better just choose widowers, because then I will get someone who really understands.
And that turned out to be true.
However, being widowed was the only thing we had in common, the people I met.
And And so, well, you know, I wouldn't be interested in this person had we not had this in common.
So, all right, we can rule that out.
And then I tried having sex with another old friend.
He had, during my wild time...
I had had a regular ongoing relationship with him and then he had moved away and he was going to be back close to me for an event.
And did I want to meet?
This is the way I'm going to get back into sex.
This will work.
And so I showed up at the hotel and we talked a lot and everything.
And we got into bed, and he started gently caressing me, not rushing anything, and I just froze.
I froze.
This is not Robert's body.
This is not Robert's hands.
I told him, I'm sorry, I can't go through with it.
I...
I just can't do it.
I had prepared for this.
I thought I could.
I chose my underwear with care.
And I just can't go through with it.
And he said the best thing he could have, he said, tell me about Robert.
Wow.
It is, I mean...
There's a couple of things I'm gleaning from this.
And one is, you know, you're talking about these fits and starts.
You were sort of giving yourself permission to try something and giving yourself permission to say this is not going to work for me, when it wasn't.
So it was like kind of riding the wave of your grief, which of course is not linear.
I'm hearing that.
Then also I love, I really love that response from this partner.
Yeah.
Instead of, okay, well, you know, have a good day or whatever.
Tell me, like, invite me in.
Tell me about this person that you love so much.
I mean, it makes it connective.
And also, I would say, though, it brings, of course, another person in.
Into the space, I mean, which is interesting.
It's like then Robert is in the room, you know, not physically, of course, but he's there.
And did you enjoy having him there?
Did you enjoy telling this man about, you know, about Robert?
It was just what I needed.
And I realize how self-indulgent all these stories are, but it's what we can do when we're in really bad grief, especially in the beginning, before we've figured out a process for getting to the next step.
You know, at this point, you are experimenting with different partners.
You've gotten back into solo pleasuring.
But you're so not looking for another partner.
And then?
And then, almost nine years ago, a person appeared in OkCupid responding to my profile.
His name is Mac.
And he was everything I would have been looking for if I'd been looking for someone.
Tell me.
He was smart.
He was...
He was communicative.
He was accomplished.
He had his own life that was rich.
And he also was a widower.
And he had lost his wife recently after long caregiving while she was ill.
And he needed to find out how to live again.
And he'd written a really good profile.
He was a retired anthropology professor.
He was fit, a hiker.
He was all the things.
He wasn't a dancer and he didn't have chest hair, but otherwise he was kind of perfect.
He liked to cook.
Ooh, he liked to cook.
I know.
So we arranged to meet at a coffee shop in my town and we arrived to find it's closed.
And so I said, well, do you want to go for a walk?
There's a walking path just across the street.
And he said, yeah, I love to walk.
And so we walked and we talked for well over an hour and getting more and more excited about each other with every revelation, every revelation, and how easily it was to talk to each other honestly.
He could talk about Marjorie.
I could talk about Robert.
Marjorie is his wife who passed.
Yes.
And yet we didn't have to talk about those things all the time.
We could also talk about, well, he thought my work was fascinating.
And so many men were intimidated by it.
They'd say, oh, I don't dare date you.
Well, if I'm going to intimidate you, it's a good screening test.
That's fine.
And then we went home and we then started emailing again immediately.
We just had this, I don't know how many emails we exchanged over and over.
In one email, I said, are there any questions you haven't asked that are really important to you?
And he said, yes, can you imagine having sex with me?
Okay, I'm like, you've met your match.
And I replied, I'm imagining it now.
Did someone turn up the heat in my studio?
I mean, it's just, I mean, you are the queen of sexy emails.
You are the queen.
Don't ask me to text.
I need my keyboard.
Okay.
Can you tell me about the process of being intimate with Mac?
What was that like?
I mean, you're both widows.
I imagine that adds a dimension.
Tell me about that.
We made a date, I think two days after that email, to meet at his house.
And pretty quickly I said, can I see your bedroom?
And I had brought lube, I had brought condoms, I was ready.
And he was so eager, so eager after a very long celibacy, that it just happened kind of the bodies took over and we didn't really have to negotiate anything at that point.
Later we thought okay, now there are some things I want you to understand about how my body works, and I want to understand more about yours.
And so we kind of stepped back and went into the exploration of what works best for us now.
And then modified what good sex is for us right now.
And we've continued to do that.
And it's really helped us.
We've been together almost nine years now.
Wow.
I know.
Who knew this could happen again?
And one of the things I learned along the way is we don't need to have the goal of penetrative sex for it to be real sex or good sex.
Let's see what we can do now, given the buffet of sexual choices, of things to do That will arouse us, bring us to orgasm, keep our old bodies comfortable and work.
Mac had never experienced a sex toy other than a very old magic wand that Marjorie used solo, not with him.
Hmm.
And I've introduced him, it would be fair to say, to dozens of sex toys now.
We bring it into our sex play.
He enjoys the penis sex toys.
As much as I enjoy clitoris sex toys, and it's never that or us.
It's all of us, you know.
We're a threesome all the time with these sex toys.
Or a foursome if he's using a different one.
We have this game we play.
We really believe in keeping sex fun with surprises and games.
And one of it is that we each have a sex basket.
This is at his house.
We don't live together, and we're very happy that way.
We each have a sex basket.
It's filled with the lube.
Each of us needs a wash-up cloth, the sex toy we want to incorporate and anything else that might be fun, a blindfold or something.
And he will come into my room.
I have my own room at his house for when I stay over, which I highly recommend.
He will come into my room and he will look at the basket and he'll see what's in it and he'll know what I want.
Before that though, in preparation, I have a shelf in that room that I call the vibrator charging station, which has multiple connectors connected.
And each time we make sure that what we need to use is plugged in.
And even if we might use it, we're not sure.
We plug it in and make sure.
And when I'm preparing for our sex date, I will look in the basket and find oh, he sneaked in here and oh, he wants to use this.
Oh, that's exciting.
Wow.
I know.
It's all a matter of buildup in a really interactive and fun way.
And so then I put the two sex baskets on the bedside table.
I have a bell there too.
And the bell is used to summon him when I'm ready.
And so when I'm ready, freshly showered and got everything settled, and phones are off and I'll ring the bell.
He does not come in until I ring the bell.
I'm basically speechless, in the sense of everything you're saying is adding a layer of erotic on top of the erotic.
And I mean, I'm hearing the tingling of the bell, tinkling, whatever, in my mind's ear.
And I'm like, it's on.
What a fun series of practices and rituals or like structures you have in place to keep it exciting.
I mean, it sounds thrilling.
Yeah.
And some of these things.
I'd say maybe all of these things we had to figure out, being old and having body parts that were wonky or hurting, but they're applicable to any age relationship.
You know, if young people started doing this now...
They'd have a whole lot more fun and less stress and fear when their bodies started aging and said wait, we have to change some things.
You go, I don't know how.
What do you mean I have to change things?
You're so right.
This is applicable advice to anyone, regardless of age.
And when I return to this idea that both you and Mac have lost people you know, Robert and Marjorie I guess I wonder, like sort of invoking them in these spaces.
How do you go about that?
What's your insight into that part of sex after grief?
Part of our intimate conversation, not while we're in bed necessarily in fact, usually not in bed but when we're having normal conversation is nothing's off limits about Marjorie and Robert.
And very often we'll ask each other questions or something will remind one of us of a story and I'll tell the story.
And it's so welcome.
In a way, I joke that there are four of us in this relationship.
And it's just so open.
It's not, so many people don't understand the grief process thing.
You have to rid your house of everything that reminds you of your previous relationship and so on.
And it isn't that at all.
We can love two people. at the same time, the person we lost and the person we have.
What I came to understand through my process is that loving someone that deeply doesn't close your heart.
It expands it so that you can bring in someone new.
I wonder if someone listening has lost someone and wants to connect with their sexuality again.
What are some first steps you recommend they take?
Some first steps are to decide exactly what it is you need at this moment.
In your life.
It's not what you needed before you lost your person.
It's not what you'll need from now on.
It's right now, right now.
What does your body need?
What do your emotions need?
And what don't you want yet?
And to then go looking for that and to explain to a potential partner and by potential partner it needs to be someone well chosen.
It needs to be someone that you get along with, you're getting to know.
The chemistry is there and the easy communication is there.
And you feel that you are connecting well enough to say, I am very vulnerable.
This is my first time.
And I honestly don't know how much I'll be able to do.
So I want us to agree that we'll just maybe hold each other and kiss for a while and see how that feels.
And maybe we'll do some exploratory touching next.
We'll see how that feels.
And then we'll stop for today to see how that feels later.
And if this is good with you, I want to go on this journey with you.
If it's not, just tell me now.
No hard feelings.
I know this is not what you signed on for.
Even before you know you do lose your partner.
You recommend in your book some steps people can take to make this sort of transition easier.
Can you talk about what you recommend folks do?
Well, one thing that we did and I recommend that everyone do, whether your partner is ill, on the verge of death or perfectly healthy at the moment is to sit down and have this really important conversation.
And first let me tell you why.
So many grievers are consumed with guilt when they start thinking of inviting another person into themselves.
They feel I'm betraying my husband.
I promised fidelity.
It would be betrayal of everything we stand for, And what I want to have everybody do with a partner that they're lucky enough to have with them is to say I love you and I want you to know this.
If I predecease you or I am unable to be a complete partner to you, I want you please to feel you can seek joy and comfort with someone new and to get that message back from your partner.
So many people don't, even when someone is close to death, the partner will want to ward it off.
I say, no, no, no, don't talk about that.
No, talk about it.
This is the chance you have.
And if you do it before you need it.
You'll have it.
You can keep checking in over the years.
Is this still true?
I just want to remind you.
But people feel they're just consumed with guilt.
Even if the partner hasn't died but perhaps has Alzheimer's or is confined to a residential home.
Hmm.
I mean, it makes so much sense to have this conversation.
And yet, I understand, I'm sure you do too, why that conversation would be so hard.
Because the death of the person we're the closest to is not something...
We want to think about, let alone speak about in specific terms.
But it does.
It seems incredibly important as an act of love to remove that guilt.
You know, if you do feel that way, to remove that guilt.
Yes.
Can I ask you, I mean, have you and Mac had this conversation?
Oh, absolutely.
And we continue to revisit it, even though it's gotten to the point of yeah, I know, I know, I know.
But we just keep saying it because we just want to confirm it's still true.
It's still true.
We understand this.
And we want this.
And one of us may say, oh, I can't imagine.
I mean, look at my age.
I can't imagine.
It doesn't matter if I can imagine it or not.
Just if you do, go without guilt.
This is a bit of a.
It's a tough one because this is your work, but if I asked you for one thing that you want people to know and remember about sex and grief, what would that thing be?
Get to know yourself first.
The self you are now without your partner.
Don't be judgmental.
Don't think, oh, no, no, I'd never do that.
It's a time to be selfish.
And it's not selfish, it's self-protective.
It will seem like, oh, I'm being selfish.
No, you're being self-protective and there is a new you here.
And you don't even know who that is, until you take the time and the patience and the compassion the compassion to connect and learn and take that forward and realize that, as I learned from one grief counselor, losing your beloved isn't a sign that you will be empty and filled with loss for the rest of your life.
Losing your beloved can mean that you learned how to love fully, and you take that with you on your path.
Joan Price, what a conversation.
Thank you so much.
It has been more than my pleasure.
It has been my absolute delight.
Thank you, Anna.
Joan Price's book.
The one we talked about in this episode is called Sex After Grief Navigating Your Sexuality After Losing Your Beloved.
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we had studio support from Nick Pittman.
Original music in this episode by Sonia Herrero, Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, and Rowan Nemisto.
Dan Powell composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
