Thank you so much for having me.
What is the deeper question that sits behind this yearly cycle of planning?
For journalist and psychologist Emily Esfahani-Smith, it's what truly gives our lives meaning and how we stay grounded in what matters most.
In a conversation from January, Emily joins TED curator Whitney Pennington-Rogers to explore questions around how to cultivate purpose, belonging and a deeper sense of fulfillment as we continue into this year and beyond.
New year's resolution is a thing that many of us at least know about and maybe participate in some way, thinking about how we want to resolve to do things for the year.
How do you make the distinction between chasing achievement and cultivating a meaningful life?
So i think so yeah, the idea of resolutions.
I, you know i, i personally, i like the idea of resolutions.
If they're done, you know, I think the right way.
I guess you could say
A lot of times we do resolutions that are focused on these really discrete goals like lose 10 pounds by such and such a date, or things like this.
And I think that if we, especially tying it into meaning, if we can think about what it is that we value that's underneath that resolution, like health or connection.
And then maybe framing the resolution in more broad terms than that specific discrete goal.
I think it'll be.
It'll make it more consistent with living a meaningful life and and less kind of frustrating.
Well, let's say more kind of expansive to to pursue.
If You know, if one of your goals is to say, be better at responding to your friend's text messages well, underneath that maybe, is a yearning to be more connected to the people that you love.
And so you know, if you think of it that way, then there are a lot of different ways that you can achieve that particular goal or value to be connected.
It doesn't just have to be about responding to text messages.
So I like to kind of think about, you know, what's the value?
What is it really that you're yearning for underneath?
And can you frame the resolution in that sense?
In terms of kind of thinking about, you know, achievement and goals.
Goals are things that we can, you know, accomplish.
They're, you know, discrete, they're measurable, and it's really important to have goals, obviously.
But when it comes to meaning, you know we're thinking about more like, in terms of principles and values and purpose, something that we're always working towards, not something that we just accomplish.
And then once we've accomplished it, that the meaning goes away.
We want something that we're kind of constantly working towards.
I mean, and I think so much of this idea of resolutions also feels connected to the idea of happiness that if we do these things right, then ultimately we'll lead a happier life, we'll be happier people.
At least that feels like that's sort of the underlying goal for all of us in setting these resolutions.
And I know in your work, this is a big part of how you think about meaning of life.
It's sort of making this distinction between happiness and meaning.
And so for those of us who you know might be hearing some of this for the first time, can you talk a little bit about how you define living a life of meaning?
What does that, what does that look like, and why do you think that matters more than than happiness?
Well, i remember, you know, when i was first kind of engaging with these topics that I think it was actually around the new year several years ago now, but there was so much kind of in the media and social in the press on social media about, you know, resolutions and happiness, like five ways to have a happier new year.
And I just remember at the time that those messages really didn't resonate with me because, you know, reflecting on my own life I, you know I was I wasn't, you know miserable, but I wasn't kind of happy, you know, all the time.
And, and so i began to think oh, is there something wrong with me that i'm not happy all the time?
And so i started to look more deeply into the research in psychology, and i saw that there was this distinction between living, you know, building your life around happiness, and then building your life around meaning and happiness.
You know, if we think about happiness, especially the way that it's sold to us in our culture it's um, it's defined, you know, within psychology research in this way too.
It's a positive mental and emotional state.
If you feel good, you're happy.
If you feel bad, you're unhappy.
And it comes and goes.
So maybe you're having a good day and you're feeling good, and then you get a phone call with some bad news.
Well, that happiness can evaporate.
Meaning, though, is more of a stabilizing force.
So the defining feature of a meaningful life is connecting and contributing to something beyond yourself.
So that could be.
You know your family, the work that you do, you know for people who are, you know, have spiritual, religious commitments.
You know to God or something larger, you know the universe.
So meaning is all about kind of stepping beyond yourself.
It's not just about how you feel, but it's stepping beyond yourself to connect something bigger.
And for a lot of us, that, like I said, is a stabilizing force.
If happiness can kind of come and go, if it's more ephemeral meaning, you know, is there, no matter what our kind of emotional state is.
We're always.
You know, if your family is a source of meaning, your family, you know, will continue to be that source of meaning, even if you're having a bad day.
Yeah, I mean, it feels so important.
And I guess, if you look at it from the other lens, like I know that you in your work are spending lots of time talking to people who are sort of contemplating these big questions about what is the meaning of their own lives.
And then also what does happiness look like for them in that moment?
And when you find that people are coming to you and they say that they're feeling stuck or unhappy or dissatisfied in some way.
I guess, what are you noticing that they're most often missing?
Is it purpose and connection or is it something else entirely?
I think that, yes.
So you know when people come to you, you know for me, you know as a therapist or even just you know your friends or people you love and they feel stuck, that they feel unhappy.
I think there's this really natural tendency to want to cheer them up, to make them happy.
Hey, look on the bright side.
Or hey, let's go do this fun thing and you'll feel better.
But what we actually know we know this from the research and I know this from my own clinical experience is that happiness kind of lives on the surface.
It doesn't penetrate deeply.
And so when people are feeling depressed or hopeless, lonely or anxious.
And we know that all of those markers of suffering have been rising in recent years.
When people are feeling those ways, what they need is something kind of more than happiness.
They need something deeper.
So the research shows that people who pursue and value happiness the way that our culture wants us to do, they actually end up feeling less happy.
But when they pursue meaning, when they search for meaning and seek it out, there is this deeper kind of well-being that follows as a result.
And so a lot of times yes, when I'm seeing people who feel stuck, there's this kind of unmoored feeling.
They don't feel like they have a sense of purpose.
They're kind of drifting from this to that, don't really have a sense of who they are.
And once you are able to kind of help them recognize what their purpose is, then things start to fall in line a little bit more.
The classic example of this is Viktor Frankl, the Jewish Holocaust survivor from Vienna, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning a beautiful book.
And it's about his experiences in the concentration camps during the Holocaust.
And he writes about how the inmates in the camps had lost everything.
They'd lost their families.
They'd lost their homes, their freedom.
And so understandably, a lot of them decided that there was nothing else left to live for.
But there were some people who continued to believe that there was some purpose or meaning driving their lives, like being reunited with their children who were living, you know, elsewhere in safety.
And those who were able to hold on to meaning were more resilient in the face of suffering and even more Frankel writes apt to survive given the general degradations of camp life.
And we know this.
You know from the research as well that you know when researchers look at what's predicting this rising tide of despair.
You know all through the world rises in depression loneliness, et cetera.
It's not a lack of happiness in people's lives.
It's a lack of meaning.
And people who have a sense of meaning in life are more resilient to suffering, do experience greater longevity.
So there's something really powerful about meaning that kind of goes deeper for us.
And it's so interesting that you You note that, because I think one question that I have for you is around the time that sort of elapsed since your talk and since you wrote your book.
So it was 2017 and now we're now in 2026, nine years later.
And since that time, we've experienced so many things culturally, right?
This pandemic, there's sort of this rising political polarization which, of course, existed in 2017.
But I think in much greater degrees, we're seeing it today.
You know, growing existential threats like climate change and you name it, the list goes on and on.
Right.
How do you feel, like when you especially think of Viktor Frankl, like how do you think these collective experiences have sort of reshaped the way you think about, the way you give your life meaning, or the way you think about the meaning of life and if they have at all,
Yes.
I'll take the example of the pandemic, because that is something obviously that we all went through.
It was several years long.
We saw a lot of people in major transitions losing their jobs, deciding to leave work or suddenly being plunged into an environment where they were around their children all the time and tried to do work, just navigating a lot.
Or maybe the work that they did was not possible anymore because of what was happening.
And so that source of meaning was gone.
And, you know, so what the pandemic was basically for a lot of people was a life transition.
And we all experience life transitions.
Personally, ever since I wrote my book in 2017, I've become a parent.
That was a major life transition for me.
But the pandemic, the political atmosphere, things have changed.
And I think that in these moments of transition what can happen is our sense of self kind of gets shaken up a bit.
And definitely whatever happiness we may have been feeling, whatever comforts that we had may not be in place as much as they were before.
I remember seeing a statistic during the pandemic saying that Americans were the unhappiest that they've been in decades.
And, of course, all those indicators of suffering that I talked about a moment ago.
They had been rising.
But during the pandemic, that rise became even steeper.
And so transitions don't feel good all the time, but they can be these opportunities to reflect, to kind of pause, kind of like the way the new year is, to pause and think about okay, what do I really want?
What do I value?
And I saw a lot of people doing that during the pandemic.
They were kind of foisted into this situation, not by choice, And they took it as an opportunity to kind of reflect a little bit more deeply on their lives and what they wanted.
And they came out of the pandemic with a new sense of direction.
So I think, with transitions, we have to recognize that it's totally normal for them to feel bad and for us to feel unmoored, both in terms of our happiness and our meaning, because things are changing.
And yet, if we kind of continue the search, use that time, as uncomfortable as it may be, as an opportunity to reflect on what we want, where we want our lives to go, what our purpose is, it can lead to these opportunities, these new directions in our lives that can feel really, you know, life affirming once we come out of it.
Well, you know, I guess, speaking to sort of this transition and you keep coming back to, of course, this moment being the new year sort of feeling like this transitional moment for all of us.
And in your book you sort of you talk about the four pillars of meaning as belonging purpose, transcendence and storytelling.
You talk about that in the talk as well.
I guess in this moment, are there one or two that feel especially important to nurture right now?
I think, you know, for every person, you know, different people will feel resonate with different pillars to more or less of a degree.
And you don't have to have all four of the pillars necessarily in your life in order to feel like your life is meaningful.
But for some people, belonging is really important, those connections we have to others.
For others, it's gonna be transcendence, this connectedness to the beauty around us, to nature, to the spiritual world.
But I think if I had to single out one more than any for right now, given this moment in time that we're in, I would focus on belonging because, as you mentioned earlier Whitney, there is this kind of growing divisiveness and this is obviously kind of impairing and getting in the way of us having the kind of relationships that we want to have with people.
There's kind of that cliche now about the Thanksgiving table and, you know, family members who have become estranged from one another as a result of political beliefs.
And I think if we kind of step back and think about belonging and connectedness in kind of a broader way than our allegiance to a political party or to a particular group, it could maybe help us, you know, rekindle those connections.
So in my book, The Power of Meaning, I
I talk about belonging, as you know, this ability to kind of value the other person for who they are intrinsically and to feel valued in turn for who you are intrinsically.
So, you know, we're not valued.
We don't belong.
You know when we're just, you know, part of a political tribe, or even you know, if you think, in more problematic cases, part of a gang or a cult.
We have true belonging when we're valued for who we are intrinsically.
Kind of deep down, you know, being recognized as a human being.
You know, I think political parties and groupishness, you know sports team affiliations, another example can offer this kind of cheap sense of belonging.
Um, but true belonging springs from this place of, of love.
I would say, you know, like smaller case love in some cases where you actually just kind of connect with another person.
It could be the person at the grocery store or, you know, your, your child at home.
And so kind of stripping away some of these myths of belonging, that it has to come from being affiliated with a group um, or for believing a certain thing, I think can help us in this new year forge better connections.
And I'll say too, just kind of referring back to the data as well, so much of what's driving rising rates of depression, suicide, self-harm is loneliness and a sense of isolation.
And again, the antidote to that is belonging and feeling connected to others.
I think that makes so much sense that it feels like being able to sort of see yourself as part of this bigger fabric and make those connections really will be able to feed your purpose in a lot of ways.
And I imagine There are questions in the chat about some of the other pillars and it seems like maybe belonging is a funnel to helping you realize some of those other pillars as well.
Is that accurate?
I think so.
And I said a second ago too oh, you don't necessarily have to have all the pillars in your life for your life to feel meaningful, but I'll make an exception to that.
Whereas I do think you have to have a sense of belonging, kind of connections to others that feel rich and meaningful to you.
Human beings are social creatures.
We thrive on the relationships that we have.
And when you ask people, okay, what are your most important sources of meaning in life?
They will say, my relationships, my family, my community.
So belonging is really important.
And yes, I think it can fuel these other pillars of meaning as well.
I mean, if you think about purpose, a lot of us will find a sense of purpose in being a part of a community, in playing a particular role in a community.
I think about caretakers, for example.
Caretaking is kind of an ultimate example of loving and devoting your life to something beyond yourself.
And so it's belonging there, but it's also this sense of purpose as well.
So I do think that belonging is kind of underneath many of the pillars and really important for all of us to have in our lives.
And I'll just say too, We hear a lot about how relationships are important to well-being.
Relationships are important for our sense of happiness, our sense of meaning.
And I just want to say, of course, that's what I'm saying.
But when I talk about belonging, what I'm really talking about is a specific type of relationship a relationship again, where you're valued for who you are, intrinsically.
We're all in many relationships.
And in some of those relationships, belonging exists.
In some of those relationships, even even close ones, like to family members or friends, belonging might not exist.
And so I'm really talking about a specific feature of a relationship.
Emily, we have lots of questions coming in from members that I think will add something great to this conversation.
So I want to bring some of those in.
We have one from Antoinette where they ask in periods of transition, especially when we feel called to leave a familiar but misaligned path, how can we distinguish between pursuing meaningful growth and chasing an idealized version of the quote?
Unquote right fit.
What does it look like to move toward purpose without forcing outcomes?
Yes.
Antoinette, that's such a great question.
So yes, a lot of us could find ourselves in situations that I think, like you said, feel misaligned, are comfortable but don't necessarily fit with our values or how we saw our life going.
And there's that kind of grass is always greener effect, right?
Oh, if I just left my job or left this relationship, moved here, then things would be better.
Of course, that's not always the case.
Sometimes it might be the case, but it's not always the case.
I think what I'd recommend in a case like that is to think about the situation that you're in right now.
In what sense is it misaligned?
Is it misaligned in the sense that it is running in the opposite direction of your values?
Are you working for a company, for example, that's not doing the sort of good in the world that you would like to be doing with your life?
Or is it something different?
Is it that the tasks that you're doing, the life that you're in, feel boring or feel unstimulating, unsatisfying?
Because In that case, I think that there are ways to replenish, meaning to reconnect whatever it is that you're doing that might seem tedious, that might not seem glamorous to whatever that bigger picture is that you see your life being a part of.
So for example, if you're a teacher, let's say, and you are you know, in meetings, you know, committee meetings or this and that, and it just feels like a waste of time.
Well, what you're doing is in the service of this larger mission of serving of, you know, of educating young people.
And so sometimes small tweaks can help, but sometimes we do need a bigger change, a more radical change.
And again, I think that The signal for that, the hint that that's what's needed, is if you are living a life that does not feel at all aligned with your values and aligned with what's important to you.
So I think that's that's one way I would think about it.
And you know, I think that there's also an element here for a lot of us of things happening outside of our control, right.
That there are so many factors that affect how we think about ourselves, that are going on around us, that we don't particularly have any ability to sway in one way or the other.
And so I wonder how you think we can build lives of meaning when the future maybe feels uncertain, or when progress feels slow or things feel beyond your ability to actually move influence in some way.
Yes.
Yes.
So, you know, the future is, is uncertain and that's always true.
You know, you know, it's, it was true, you know, a hundred years ago, it's true today.
And it may be even more true than ever today.
Cause there's, you know, the world is changing at such a fast rate.
And I think here, um, again, meaning can be a stabilizing force.
Um, if we, if we know, if we're committed to you know connecting and contributing to something beyond ourself, whether that's our family or the work that we do, you know something, you know more spiritually inclined, perhaps then that can be an anchor for us, even as things change all around us.
I think you know saying at the beginning of the episode of the show here with you Whitney, that you know, when it comes to meaning and happiness, that things can feel uncertain and that when we're setting resolutions for ourselves goals, are these kind of discrete things that we can accomplish.
Happiness is something that we may want, but it comes and goes.
But meaning is something that we can always work towards, not just you know yes, we can frame our New Year's resolutions in terms of meaning, but also our life more generally in terms of meaning.
And that can be a stabilizing force to kind of get us, you know, give us something to anchor us, to move us through.
You know all of the uncertainty.
And again, you know I come back to examples of people who have, who have experienced uncertainty and calamity.
If you think about again, like World War II, Viktor Frankl, the Holocaust, finding meaning in a situation like that can be this source of hope, something to live for.
And that's maybe an extreme example, but there are people around the world who are going through really horrific things right now.
But there's also those of us who are privileged to live in peaceful societies.
And even for us, maybe you have chronic disease.
Maybe there's something else really hard going on in your life that makes the future uncertain.
I still think that having that meaning, that purpose, does give that sense of hope.
It's that forward-pointing arrow that leads you into the future, helps you move through the bumps of life.
And so let's talk a little bit about what that looks like then.
So Deja?
A member of Deja has a question about how you can integrate big goals into an everyday schedule, routine or plan.
What are some of the small everyday practices you think can help us stay oriented towards meaning?
Yeah, that's a great idea.
I mean, that's a great question.
I think that there are a lot of small things that we can do.
So for example, I think, I'll give an example that's personal to me.
So there's, like I said, I've had children since I wrote my book.
One is four years old, the other is two, the other is 12 weeks old.
And so a lot of my time these days is spent doing things like laundry and washing bottles and, you know preparing, you know meals, and trying to coax my kids to eat those meals.
And you know it can feel like I don't know it's hard.
You know it's hard being a parent sometimes.
It's wonderful, it's joyful, it's beautiful as well, but it can also feel hard.
And I think that know, i'm constantly trying to remind myself that all of these things that you know my husband and i are doing um for our kids, even though they can seem frustrating or, you know, tedious or boring.
You know folding laundry, whatever um that they're all part of.
You know caring for and loving um these children, and so you know cooking the meals, folding the laundry, washing the bottles those can turn into acts of love.
And so that then endows those things with a greater sense of meaning and kind of just brings a little bit more peace and comfort when things feel chaotic and uncertain at home.
So I think.
So reframing what we're doing, I think, can be a really powerful way to align, you know, our everyday tasks with those broader goals, reframing them to connect them to something meaningful.
The other thing is, I mean, I would say like finding micro moments in your day to cultivate, meaning you know, if you're working, for example, in the office like, can you have a You know a brief, maybe conversation with someone where you're really tuned into them and connected with them?
And and that can be a moment of belonging.
In my talk I tell the story of a friend of mine Jonathan, and this sense of connectedness that he has every morning buying a newspaper from the street vendor in New York.
And the two of them kind of getting to know each other and walking away from that moment feeling lifted up, feeling like they'd been really seen by the other person.
So these little moments of meaning that we can build into our lives as well.
If you think about transcendence, for example, maybe you create a playlist for yourself on Spotify or Apple Music, whatever that is your transcendence playlist, your beauty playlist, and you listen to that in the morning or at night, whenever.
So these little ways to bake meaning into our lives, I think we just have to think about what is it that's meaningful to us and how can I bring it into that playlist or bring it into that interaction that I'm having with that person at work or on the street or whatever?
I love that.
And we have other questions about how you can use other tools to help you more thoughtfully consider meaning in your life.
And member Shoshana has a question about whether practicing or pondering and reflection on your own mortality can help you build a life of meaning.
Do you feel like that's something that's also useful?
Yes, absolutely.
Our own mortality can be the greatest kind of instigator towards getting us to think about meaning and what really matters to us.
In my book, I write about something that psychologists call the deathbed thought experiment.
And so if you're sitting on your deathbed reflecting back on your life, Are you going to be happy with what you see there?
Are you going to be satisfied, I should say, with what you see reflecting back?
Are you going to feel like you did the things that were important to you, that you did your best to kind of live out your values, to love and be loved, those kinds of things?
Or are you going to feel despair that you didn't?
What regrets might you have?
And that can be a way that we can determine OK, if I'm dying right now and sitting on my deathbed, maybe these are the changes that I need to make.
Mortality is one way that we can really kind of get into thinking about what makes our lives meaningful.
And then regret.
I think actually is another way.
Regret can speak to us too, because it tells us what's important to us, what we want our lives to be about.
So nobody feels comfortable.
Well, I shouldn't say nobody.
Maybe some people do.
But a lot of people don't feel comfortable thinking about their own deaths.
A lot of people don't feel comfortable thinking about the things they regret.
These are really painful topics to sit with.
And yet they can be these, you know.
They can give us hints and clues about how we can make our lives more meaningful.
In my book I write specifically about something called meaning-centered education psychotherapy, developed by a psychiatrist, Dr William Breitbart, at Sloan Kettering in New York City.
And that's a therapy for people who have a terminal cancer.
And the whole idea behind the therapy is okay, like your life.
You know your life is going to end sooner than you thought it would.
And so you know, with this time that you have left, how can we help you find meaning in your life?
Reflect back on the sources of meaning in your life, on what right now still gives you meaning.
And what the researchers find is that that intervention does increase the sense of meaning that people have in the face of death.
And so that tells us that there is something about mortality which kind of forces us to come to terms with our lives in a way that feels very pressing and can bring that sense of meaning.
I think one thing I find really striking in what you've just shared now, and what you've shared throughout the conversation, is that there's really many unexpected places where you can find meaning.
And if you're really thoughtful about this, then things that you think you know regrets and mortality and you know crises like that, they could also bring about a great opportunity for personal growth and understanding of yourself right, which is wonderful.
So we have other questions from members, sort of about how we think, about the way we can engage with meaning in the people around us.
So Miriam asks how do we confront those who do not take into account their emotions and feelings in the name of individualism and do not want to feel connected?
I guess, if we're trying to create a sense of belonging and connection for ourselves, how can we do that if other people don't want to engage in that way?
Yeah, that's a great question, Miriam.
I think so.
I think, you know, in Western cultures especially, or just you know, in cultures that are the wealthier culture becomes, the more individualistic it becomes.
And there is this pull then between, you know, individualism and community.
You know, if you look across the world like different, you know different parts of the world have different emphasis on which one they think is more important.
You know the individual or the community?
You know, in a lot of kind of Asian cultures there's a greater sense of community, a sense of emphasis placed on community and community-oriented values like honor and serving other people, than in places like the United States, where there's greater emphasis obviously, on individualism.
You know, do your own thing, follow your own path, kind of thing.
And so I think that, for people who are living in individualistic cultures, you're always negotiating that tension between the self and other and how to cultivate that sense of belonging.
And I think that one of the things that we're seeing as a result of this rising individualism is that people are lonelier.
And so that leads to rising rates of mental illness more broadly.
And what can we do about that?
We can't necessarily force people to engage with us, but we can create opportunities in the, in the kind of cultures and organizations that we're a part of, to cultivate belonging.
I talk about cultures of meaning in my book, The Power of Meaning, and it's your family could be a culture of meaning.
Your school, your organization, whatever communities that you're involved with you, can turn it into a culture of meaning by creating the conditions that facilitate belonging.
So, for example, I remember, I know, years ago I was at a dinner, you know, a group of 15 people.
None of us knew each other, or some of us did, but we were not close.
It was you know very much on the professional level, and the person hosting the dinner had us go around and talk about, you know, something that feels really challenging right now and something that we're really hopeful for.
And also the best moment of our life, you know, something like that.
So we all went around and did that as an icebreaker.
And it really, you know, made the group feel connected.
So, yeah.
So what's the takeaway from that?
I think creating spaces where we can have genuine, meaningful conversations with one another can be a way to cultivate belonging.
And maybe, if there's that person who doesn't want to engage, maybe one way to get them to engage is to ask them about their own life.
What are they hopeful for?
What is challenging right now?
And then that can be a portal to belonging.
Well, I mean, as we look to the future and there's so many things that you know I feel like AI, of course, is the thing that all of us are talking about how that will change maybe what our day-to-day meaning of our lives is, but maybe collectively, you know how we think about human life.
When you look to the future, what gives you hope about our collective search for meanings?
Well, I think that you know, even though things feel like they're, you know, falling apart and they're all you know, all these existential threats and whatnot, you know, if you do take the long view of history it's, you know, things are improving.
You know the people are living longer.
People live in societies, you know, with more.
You know living with more freedom.
You know things are getting better overall.
And I think that that gives me a sense of hope.
And the more that people, The more that the conditions around us exist that allow people to live good lives, the more people can turn to this question of meaning.
So I think that that gives me a lot of hope.
Well, Emily, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here.
I think this is the perfect way to begin our membership year and for all of us to contemplate these things as we're starting to think about the year we have ahead.
So thank you for taking the time to join us and share this.
Well, thank you so much, Whitney.
And thank you for all the questions.
It was great to be with you all.
That was Emily Esfahani-Smith in conversation with Whitney Pennington-Rogers for a TED membership event in 2026.
If you're curious about TED's curation, find out more at TED.com slash curation guidelines.
And that's it for today.
TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective.
This talk was fact-checked by the TED Research Team and produced and edited by our team Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little and Tansika Sungmarnivong.
This episode was mixed by Christopher Fasey-Bogan.
Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezo.
I'm Elise Hugh.
I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.
Thanks for listening.
