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Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live.
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Sarah, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, it is our pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so my name is Sarah Hearn.
I am a partner at PATH.
We are a strategic marketing and business management company.
We do market research across the US and Canada and we help organizations understand what's most important to what we believe is the center of their decision or the center of their business, which is people.
In fact our name stands for.
People are the how, because our core belief is and what we've seen with our clients, is that organizations that bring people to that center part of their decision making process are the ones that grow long term organically and sustainably outperform the market and are able to manage these times of uncertainty, which right now is a big competitive differentiator.
And so we do that through data.
We use data to help companies understand their customers employees, the market and competitors.
This is great and so listeners, that's what we're going to focus on today.
We're going to focus on the data and how we can use high level data to be a differentiator in your negotiations, and a lot of times we focus so much on the persuasive aspect, the relationship, those type of things.
Those are very, very important, but when it comes to building your case, understanding how to use data and when to use it appropriately is going to be really important.
And I want you to know something about Sarah that she did not mention.
She is very humble.
I have a question for you, Sarah.
Have you won any awards recently?
I don't know.
Have you won any awards recently?
I think you won yours first because your name starts with A.
Yes, we are both alumni of the class of 2022 40 under 40 for Columbus.
So congratulations.
Yes, to you as well.
Thank you.
Thank you.
No, this is great.
And I'm pumped about this episode because, like I said, we need to get deeper into the data.
And especially when the markets are getting a bit tougher.
Being able to substantiate your claims is going to be important, because people are going to be feeling a lot of things.
But there's a difference between facts and feelings.
But in the heat of the moment, it might feel the exact same way, right? into data.
So, when you're in your world, when you're having these conversations, what type of data are we talking about?
Really all kinds of data.
Typically, it's people data, like customers, employees, market competition.
And we're typically talking about perception as well.
That's kind of the main piece of the data we look at.
We bring in all kinds of secondary data, how the market's performing supply and demand analysis.
But at the end of the day, our goal is to help organizations understand their people better.
OK, so you dropped a bomb in there.
That is really important to to address, because when we're talking about data, I think a lot of people think about like hard numbers, irrefutable data, those type of things.
But you also mentioned a term in passing when you talk about perception, and perception is very subjective.
And so, when you're talking about data and also perception, how do we reconcile these two things?
Seemingly completely different concepts.
Yeah, you'd think they'd be completely different, wouldn't you?
But when we talk to our clients, what we tell them is perception is reality.
At the end of the day, if your customers think something or your employees think something happened a certain way, then to them that's their reality.
And so that's why perception data is so important when we think about organizations being able to grow or to manage times of big change.
Yeah oh, this is good, okay.
So when you think about the discrepancy sometimes that could exist between the data and perception, are there any stories that come to mind that that highlight this really well for you?
Oh, my gosh.
So we we, we manage long-term, large-scale customer research programs for many of our clients.
So that means If you have an experience with a customer, if we're their partner, we'll call you, sometimes in the same week that you had that experience.
So we're making 16000 calls annually for some of our customers to their customers just to see how things went, what the situation was.
Is there anything else this company can do for you and if there were any problems in your experience,
And I emphasize that because that's what we hear almost every time we go back to our clients and say hey, this particular customer had a problem in their experience.
They go back to their team.
And I would say 99% of the time that team member says, no, no, no, that's not the way it happened.
I gave them great customer service.
I called them every time I said I would call them.
When in fact, that's not how the customer felt.
So who's right in that situation?
It's not about right or wrong.
It's about being aware that there's a problem and managing that problem.
And that's really the crux of it.
That's why we look at perception data.
It's not to penalize team members every single opportunity you have.
It's to say, OK, there's a perception gap here.
How can we manage that and make sure this customer had a great experience and help our team members learn more to deliver better in the future?
Oh, this is great okay, so i.
So this morning i was uh, doing my, my headspace meditation yeah, and one one of the things that they said was um, the when, when humans are interacting, a lot of times we focus on blaming and praising.
Yeah, so it's either somebody did something really great okay, we'll praise them they, we perceive them to have done something wrong, we blame them, and so humans are just wired for judgment in some type of way, and then, when it comes to conflict resolution, problem solving collaboration, Blaming people is going to be one of our natural tendencies.
And at the same time, it's probably going to be one of the main reasons why we don't solve problems.
Because once you start blaming people, like in the example that you gave, people get defensive.
And so when you're working with these organizations and you provide them with this data of perception, it's so interesting.
It's data of something subjective.
How do you break through to help them to understand what they actually need to do, rather than blaming the customer for not getting it?
It's so interesting that you brought up your mindfulness practice, because I would say so.
I've been building my own mindfulness practice now for probably five years.
And I would say that's where one of my biggest unlocks about how, why these processes are powerful came from, which is the idea that we all are just trying our best.
You know really, that's the place that we as organizations, just as we are people, you know, if we can show up from that place understanding hey, our customers, our employees, they're all doing their best.
Let's find that central point where we can come to an agreement so that in the future, like I said, we can do better right.
We can understand each other better and create better experiences.
And so the way we do that is by making sure that people in the organization are involved.
We're not the kind of company that comes in, implements a survey, drops a report on your desk.
Here's all the things you're doing wrong.
You better fix them or you're not going to grow.
We take a cross-functional approach upfront, not because it's just a best practice, but what we know is that when people in the organization that represent the organization horizontally and vertically from frontline employees all the way up to leadership, across all the functions of your company when they're all involved, it feels like their tool.
They know the words that were included, the questions that were included, why they were included.
So by the time the data gets there, we've all aligned that, hey, this is important to measure.
And we may get some hard truths in this process, but it's important for us to be aware of it so we can manage it better in the future.
And the thing, the quote that I like to mention that it sounds kind of rude, but I do think it's really powerful is that being listened to feels like being loved.
And that's really what we're trying to do, both internally at the organization and externally with any number of stakeholders.
Oh, this is great.
This is great.
And you know, what I love about this episode is that we started off talking about hard data and then it didn't take very long for us to talk about perception mindfulness, meditation and love.
It's crazy, but it makes so much sense.
And one of the things that you talked about with having that conversation cross-functional approach where you're involving a lot of people in the process.
This is a classic persuasion technique that is called the IKEA effect.
And so what they found is that people who go and purchase furniture whole they don't have the same emotional attachment as people who buy it from IKEA and they actually have to build the furniture themselves.
And so the more you involve people in the process, the more committed they will be at the final outcome.
And so, again going back to something that you said, a lot of times people focus on right and wrong.
But if you bring them along on this process, they're less likely to say this is the wrong way, because they feel as though they can see a part of themselves in the process.
Now let's say you don't bring them along on the process and then you just end the process by giving them the right answer.
Then they'll say, no, that's wrong because I feel bad.
Yeah, the situation.
Yeah, I mean, it's understandable, right?
If you address people like that, you push them into survival mode.
And so it is all about protection and trying to bring down risk, making sure that I come out of this unscathed.
But if you involve them in the process, know that this is really just a tool for us all to grow, for us all to do better then hey, there's a lot more space in there to find partnership and to move forward.
Definitely.
Oh, this is great.
This is great.
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Now, when you think about data, we all understand that it's important, but it's easy to become overwhelmed.
And so when you think about focus, focus is not just about understanding what to pay attention to.
It's also about understanding what you need to ignore.
And so when you're thinking about the data that you collect and when you're using this persuasively in conversations, how do you know what doesn't matter?
That's such a great question.
I mean, I have my own bias that I come into it into, because I know the power of standing on the shoulder of statistical giants and using advanced analysis to come up with really what's driving behavior.
But in the same respect.
I think at the end of the day, it's just about the act of trying to better understand if you're not going to use a market research firm like us.
And you're going to go to your customers or your employees or look at the market and try to better understand what they're doing.
The act of doing that can be a relationship building tool in and of itself, because you're saying hey, I want to do better.
I know that there's always opportunity for me to grow.
Let's have a dialogue about that.
And in that it just gives you the opportunity to do a little better each time, to hear something, to test it, to see how that works.
To go back to the start
And that's really especially in times of uncertainty, like we've been in for a number of years now, and it looks like we're gonna be entering into the idea of being agile and testing whether you're a 5 million organization or a 2 billion organization is a really important concept for us to navigate change.
Yeah, well said, well said.
And when we're thinking about change and navigating these changes, we understand that there are people who are resistant to change.
And so again, we, over the past few years, we've gone through an incredible amount of change.
And I think People understand that change needs to happen.
And especially as we're going into times of uncertainty, there are going to be some surprises.
But still that resistance is going to be there, because people will cling to what they're familiar with, even if what they're familiar with is objectively not working.
And so now...
When you have the data that substantiates the decision that you're making and you run into somebody who says hey Sarah, thanks for that data.
I don't care.
I'm not going to change.
How do you approach that?
You know, I let the data tell the story.
That's really you know.
I think as a consultant, it's easy to get into the groove of saying you know my expertise and what I've done in the past based on this.
At the end of the day, I'm just the delivery person.
I'm just the messenger.
So I let the data sit in the middle and it's really not up to me to implement in these organizations, or up to my team.
It has so much to do with the strategic focus that organization has the timing, the buy-in all of the challenges and opportunities they're facing.
So I think, letting the data tell the story and then it's up to the opportunities for the organization to move forward from there.
And that happens a lot, right?
There are a lot of times where things just don't hit right in that moment.
Like, for example, we work with a lot of manufacturers doing new product innovation and we go out and test in the market.
And this particular company had built a product It was almost ready to go to market.
They came to us, said, how do we launch it?
Where?
How much?
Which customers?
We ran a process and it came back and said, listen, nobody is interested in this product.
In fact, people are going to pay 10% less than your current products for this new product.
So our recommendation is you not launch this.
And I'll say that was one of the more painful presentations I had to deliver, because there were a lot of people who had invested years of time, energy resources in this organization to build this product.
But after it digested, because we've been fortunate enough to continue to do work with this organization.
After it digested it took a few months, but they were able to save upwards of 5 million that they saved from having to make capital investments into things to manufacture this product.
And what came out of the research was another option.
Not this friction point, but this friction point.
And that even took longer for the organization to really internalize.
But this is where we're looking at five years from when this project happened.
And it has transformed the way that they look at the market.
And I think sometimes it just takes some time, right?
We're humans.
It takes a little bit of time for us to digest, to understand, to grieve to kind of keep on using these terms that we don't typically apply to business but to grieve all of the investment we made and then to move forward from that point.
So much good stuff in here, Sarah.
Okay, so where do I start?
So let's analyze that story and think about the unique barriers that your clients were feeling.
So I've honed in on two big ones here have ego and sunk cost.
And so when you come to the um, like ideas somebody has and as an idea person i feel this in my soul sometimes you don't realize that there is a difference between who you are as a person and the ideas that you have.
Sometimes you spend so much time with this idea that it becomes a part of you and a rejection of your idea feels like a rejection of yourself.
And when you're so attached to that, that's when people cling on, regardless of what the data is saying.
And the other thing is sunk cost fallacy.
Talk about that a lot in behavioral economics, and so the more you invest in something, the harder it is for you to let it go.
That's why people stay in bad relationships, that's why people stay with bad investments.
All of those things because you become attached and you don't want that work that you put in and that effort that you put in to be in vain.
And so these are emotional things, even though you're presenting them with data.
Their emotions are going to get into play.
And now what you've presented with uh, with this situation, is the fact that you are intentional about not leading with your ego, and you said it really, really well.
You said i let the data tell the story.
The data is right.
I sarah, i'm not right, i'm just telling you what the data says.
But there's a, there's a different way that you could approach it.
You said listen, i am the person with the expert here, the expertise here.
I've done this for years.
I did all this work that is very that's less persuasive, because now their barrier is ego, and you've brought your ego into this, and now we turn this into a war of attrition.
And so the simple solution that you said Again, a persuasive strategy that is not talked about enough time, and the grieving process.
Reading a great book right now by George Kohlschreiber, Hostage at the Table.
He's a former hostage negotiator.
One of the things that he talks about is the fact that sometimes with hostage situations, you just need to take a lot of time.
No special negotiation tactic.
Just take some time and let them process what you're telling them.
The other thing is that When somebody becomes attached to something, whenever they lose that thing, whatever it happens to be a person or an idea or a perception of what the future could be, There's a grieving process.
And a lot of times as persuaders and people in the workplace just friends, family members colleagues, whatever it is.
We don't honor that grieving process.
We just say, hey, you're wrong.
Get over it.
That's not how brains work.
Yeah.
I love that you brought up identity and connected it to the grieving process because, you know, a number that's always resonated with me being in the data field is that 45 of executives make decisions based on their gut feeling.
And there's a lot of identity in that, right?
Like this idea and I think it was an HBR article talking about a number of Fortune 500 executives talking about their gut decision-making as part of their leadership superpower.
And so when you interact with leaders, there is a lot of identity in the fact that hey, I've made these strategic decisions based on my experience, all of my years of honing and growth and expertise and all of that kind of stuff.
That, To your point, if you come head to head at the table and say well, based on my experience and my expertise, I'm telling you something different.
It's not a productive conversation.
And I think that identity piece is so important, especially living at the strategic level with this data conversation.
It really does inform big picture decisions.
Understanding and empathizing with that identity across the table is so important.
Oh, this is so good.
Sarah, I thought I brought you here to talk about data.
And here we are talking about all this touchy-feely stuff.
What happened?
I can't help it.
I love people data.
I really do.
And I feel like this is really what it's all about.
It's so much like negotiation, at least in what I've heard listening to your podcast.
It really, at the end of the day, is all about better understanding people.
Exactly.
And I think this is a great place to land it too because again, sometimes we get so honestly, let me, let me, Let me say it in maybe a controversial type of way
But I think that we've become a little bit intellectually lazy now, living in the information age, because we have access to all sorts of data at our fingertips like we've never had before.
And so when we try to make a point, instead of creating a connection with somebody and building a relationship, creating trust, gathering information, being curious, we send them an article.
Right.
We send them a piece of data and we want the data or the article to do the persuasive work for us.
And what we realized here, with this brilliantly articulated episode from you?
What we realized is that hey okay, the data is something that you can use to frame the conversation.
And it's something that you can use to remove yourself from the points that you're making, to make what you're saying more persuasive.
But the data alone is not enough.
You still need those relationships.
100%.
I think that's why rightfully so market research kind of gets a bad rap, right?
Like I'd, I don't need somebody to slam a report on my desk, a hundred page report with all the facts and figures.
What am I supposed to do with that?
How am I supposed to use that?
But to your point.
If you approach it from an intellectually curious standpoint and really truly want to understand people better, they can feel that.
And that's why I said even if you're not using a market research firm, even if you're just going out and trying to kind of cut through the noise and the uncertainty of what's going on by having conversations with, with people who are your best clients or your best employees, just that act is powerful enough to move you to that next step.
Because that partnership is really where we find all of the value in this conversation.
Oh, this is great, Sarah.
I really appreciate this.
And I know there are listeners out there who are saying, wow, I need more Sarah in my life.
I know we have a lot of procurement and supply chain leaders out there listening too.
So for those folks who might want to work with you, how can they get in touch?
Yeah, so you can visit our website, www.pathgrowth.com.
We have a lot of information.
We just released an article that we love the top five ways to lose a customer.
If you're trying to do that,
And so you can find hopefully enjoyable stuff like that on our website or certainly reach out directly to me on LinkedIn or via our website.
Perfect.
Sarah, thanks again for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
This has been such a pleasure.
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