China's biggest annual political event.
The two sessions has just wrapped up, but its impact is only starting to unfold.
At this year's session of the National People's Congress, lawmakers passed three major pieces of legislation the Ecological and Environmental Code, the Ethnic Unity and Progress Promotion Law and the National Development Planning Law.
Three laws in a single session, each significant in scope, weight and policy innovation have quickly drawn widespread attention.
So why now?
Why move forward with this landmark loss at the very start of China's 15th five-year plan period?
Welcome to Road Today, the panel discussion with Miike Anna in Beijing.
Joining us today are Mohammed Ali Nasir, professor of economics at the University of Leeds, currently a visiting professor at Peking University.
Einar Tengen, Senior Fellow of the Center for International Governance Innovation, a Canadian think tank.
Dr Joe Mi, Senior Research Fellow with the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Cooperation.
Gentlemen, I'd like to begin our discussion with a very symbolic piece of legislation, the Ecological and Environmental Code, which is China's second law, formally titled a code.
China already has more than 30 effective laws in the field of ecological and environmental protection.
Why do we still need a comprehensive code?
Einar, would you like to start?
Sure.
Well, the code is about integrating all of the and not replacing all the existing laws, but bringing them to a unified legal framework.
And what do I mean by that?
Well, you remember a few years ago, there was a move to create a civil code.
And what this did is it took all the laws that affected individual rights in society and it put them into a formal code.
Why?
Because there are many different pieces of legislation that are passed over the years, but they wanted to get them complete, to harmonize them, to make sure that they all work together.
And now you see them doing that with the environmental code.
But what's really important about this is the idea that there is an environmental code, because there really isn't one anywhere else in the world.
This is China's idea of establishing that there is a link between man and nature, that we live in places where we breathe the air, The soil is where we grow our food and the water is what we drink, and they have to be clean.
We want to have a longer life.
We want to have a better life.
We have to pay attention to the environment and we're inextricably linked.
So they're putting all these you know what 30 different laws that have been passed at different times and they're compiling into one code and harmonizing them.
So it's very clear.
So you won't have different standards, especially on this issue about in different provinces.
There can be a kind of one some pollution does not obey the boundary lines, that goes to other places.
And this creates a uniform way of treating them.
A very clear and easy to understand explanation.
Dr. Zhou, what's your take?
Why was the ecological and environmental field chosen for China's second comprehensive legal code?
Well, yeah, as you mentioned, the second, first one is the civil code.
So we have so many different kinds of laws, as Anna has mentioned, that you know we're in the progress of developing from our own experiment from the start.
After you know, we opened our market.
We are keeping the ways of learning from others and, at the same times, It is not just what we have been doing for many decades that we only learn something from others and we copy what other people are doing and we just try to follow their suit.
Well, in the recent decade, I would say that China has moved into our new area.
This area, when we are saying that there's no very successful economy experiments, that we can just learn or copy everything from.
We have to try to accumulate piece by piece, by what we are able to do from the village, from the ocean to the air, even to the earth's protection.
So we need to deal with this new situation.
So in the past decade we are seeing that China has proposed some very important ideas of protecting the environment as a same value as we are earning from the manufacturings.
So, in this regard, I would say this time it's a really important time for us to try to conclude what we have been doing and trying to make them more integrated by the different pieces of the environment-related practices.
And second, I will say that China is a very firm publisher to the international community, that we want to protect the environment while at the same time, we want to provide more new and very important products and services to the world, like the new energy and also something better to deal with the environment while at the same time, to deal with the poverty reduction problem.
So many countries want to learn the practices of China.
They ask us what they can do, what they can learn from China.
Do we have some very special experiences they can learn from?
In this regard, we are considering about the past decade and also even earlier, and trying to make all these things to be better, to fit for the environment, for the new environment of the international community community.
And this time I think that we are trying to make some modification in certain part and trying to give all the different practices in a better way and a more systematic way.
Very insightful.
Professor Ali Nasir, based on your observation on China, how do you see the necessity of creating China's second legal code, the Eco-Environment Code?
Yes, I think that fits very well with the, the direction China has taken and the way it is going, specifically in context of the next five year plan.
So this codification puts a lot of emphasis on the systematic protection and it in a way preserve the core provisions of the existing laws.
But in a way it also makes a shift away from the legislation that, instead of protecting a single ecological element, it takes more systematic approach.
So it is more inclusive.
And it's not only that the code compiles the existing law.
The code also elevates the certain reform measures into formal legislation, for instance the ecological and environmental protection inspection system or the ecological environment damage compensation mechanism.
It also elevates them, enforce them in a more effective way.
And it also introduces, in a way, forward-looking provisions in areas, for instance climate change, where we have dedicated legislation now.
So it fills the gap, of course, in the existing legal framework, but it also elevates the status of authority.
Environmental laws.
It makes the enforcement easy and compliance more convenient and more effective.
And it covers a spectrum of areas.
I mean it focuses on the pollution prevention control, ecological protection, green and low carbon development, which is an area China is focusing.
And then it also pin down certain aspects, for instance legal liability and issues around damage compensation.
So I think the code was needed and in a way it also represents Xi's thought on ecological civilization and advancing, but at the same time keeping the humanity and nature in harmony.
All those aspects, I think the code was needed and I think it can't be more timely.
Indeed, that gives everyone a better picture.
Putting together a legal code isn't just merging laws.
It's really a systemic upgrade of the legal framework.
So, Einar, once the eco-environment code comes into force, what key problems will it help solve?
Well, I mean, the issue here is when you have a bunch of laws and you don't have the clarity that a My colleague has pointed out in terms of how you enforce them across different boundaries, you know you get slip ups.
The reason China is doing this is they've adopted these goals of carbon neutrality and carbon peak before 2030, carbon neutrality before 2060.
So climate governance is a structural priority.
They said, look, we're part of the environment.
As I was saying before, you can't have one without the other.
You can't say I want something but not work towards it.
And this is also, I think, something that many countries are going to be looking at and studying, because it's completely new.
And it's this idea, yes, we are in a lifeboat.
It's called the world.
And we have to take responsibility for not only in our own countries, but what China is doing is leading by example.
They're saying this is important enough that we're going to put this on the same level as our civil code.
So it strikes to the very heart of what they see as humanity.
Dr Zhou.
What are some of the most pressing environmental challenges it's mean to address right now?
Well yeah, I agree with Ina that you know when we're talking about the 10 laws will be abolished because of this COVID-19.
There's something to do with the environment evaluation, something with clean manufacturing, promotion and specific requirement about the ocean protection, the atmosphere protection and the water.
There's some of the solid waste. and even some of these noises.
So I think that we are still facing so many challenges.
The challenges are coming from several areas.
The first one is that the challenges that we have experienced in the industrialization process.
So in the traditional ways of industrialization we have to have enough ability to produce the raw materials to process the steel, the aluminum, copper and other raw materials, trying to supply the manufacturing for the equipment building factories with those raw materials.
And how can we continue to deal with that?
We have to have better abilities to meet the demand from the industrialization, not only in China, but also in other countries.
We have to export to other countries.
Those auto parts and the electronics are really important for them.
I think the second challenge come from the new errors, the new energy errors.
Some of these very emerging errors like how can we deal with lithium batteries?
How can we recycle them?
And can we do more to deal with the solar panels and other new issues?
So we are in the position to try to make all these resources in a better way for better use, and not just trying to destroy our environment or other countries' environment.
The third challenges come from what we have to deal with about the balance between the privilege and obligations.
We know that the world is facing so many uncertainties.
Some of these trade turbulence are really impacting people who really want to have a better way of our green development.
So when we're talking about the code of China, I don't think it's only something we have to protect for ourselves.
We are in the phase of moving on for the green development.
We also want to build the green belt and the road.
That is what we have to do to also to share our experiences with our trading partners.
So all these challenges are really what we need to deal with in the coming future.
Dr. Zhou, speaking of challenges, earlier Einar mentioned China's dual carbon goals.
One interesting feature of this code is that green and low carbon development has been established as a standalone section.
What considerations led to this design?
In my understanding, although I'm not an expert in that area, but I would say that China has some promises in the international community about climate change.
We promised that we will fulfill our promises as always.
So if we are going to talk about that, I would say that it's really a challenge for us, because China is the number one manufacturing country in the world.
We are depending on the development of the industries, but we need to increase the output at the same time to reduce the carbon emission.
So it's not just our task that can be fulfilled in one province or one region in China, or even one sector or industry.
We have to make that integrated development.
So, as a separate chapter, it puts it in a very important position for all the government, all the private sectors, to follow the idea, follow the principles of sustainable development in a better way to reduce the carbon emission.
And second, I think that it has showed the efforts for the coordination between different parties in China, from the law enforcement, from the government.
Even for some of the observations and the institution or research, I would say the law has made it clear that if we need to fulfill that, it can be done by just one party.
We have to do it together.
And the third one.
I think that when we put it in a separate chapter, it means that when we are having some evaluation based on the result, it's possible based on that kind of practices.
So with the enforcement mechanism of the law.
Anything who are violating this requirement will be published.
That is very clear.
So it has set some red line for the development.
We need to consider about a better way for coordinating the development of the GDP and, at the same time, of protecting the environment.
Professor Alina Seer.
The code also includes guiding principles on climate change and China's carbon peaking and carbon neutrality goals.
Does that mean we may see more detailed laws in the future in the dual carbon area?
How much room does this code leave for the future legislation?
I mean, all the code is very comprehensive.
But as we move forward, change is the only thing which is constant.
So we could expect that in the coming years there might be further improvement or changes in the code or in the law.
But I think as a starting point, it's quite comprehensive.
I mean, China's journey on environmental law is very old.
I mean, we can go back to late 1970s when China introduced its first environmental law.
So the Chinese history of providing laws and legal framework for environment is older than me, is more than well over 40 year old.
And over time, we see that whenever there is need, new laws are introduced.
It would be cogent to expect that in the coming years there could be more legislation or more laws as the new challenges, new technologies emerge.
And this is also quite healthy in a sense that in some parts of the world now There is not much emphasis or focus on the environment objectives, environmental goals or environmental laws.
I mean in the case of, for instance, US.
They had joined, they have committed themselves and they promised the international community that they will reduce the carbon emissions under COP 21.
And then under Mr. Trump in his first dinner, US withdrew from COP 21's commitment.
Then they rejoined and then withdrew again.
So in that global environment, if China is providing certainty by bringing in some good legal framework, I think that's something quite nice to see.
Einar, you've already mentioned part of this, actually.
China has pledged to reach peak carbon emissions before 2030, and now we are less than five years away and we are now in the critical window of the 15th five-year plan period.
So, given this sense of urgency, how will the code's guiding principles actually turn into concrete constraints that push local governments and companies to reduce emissions?
Well, so to recap a little bit in terms of what my colleagues have been talking about, China has signaled that its climate policy is embedded within the broader environmental legal system.
It's not a separate issue.
So it's a structural priority.
So they're talking about that.
There's also this, the code is acting as a framework law.
It leaves room for detailed legislation and regulatory mechanisms to evolve.
For instance, China has already launched the world's largest national carbon market covering the power generation sector.
These are elements that you have to have if you're codifying this.
How does this actually work?
And then to your point.
The code allows principles to translate into binding targets through planning carbon markets and performance assessments for local governments.
What they're doing is they're saying, okay, this is the guiding principle.
It's kind of like the 15th five-year plan, but we're codifying it.
This is where we want to go.
And then the legislation is going to follow that.
There will be more of that.
They got rid of the 10 laws, my colleague said, and they put in something that's more comprehensive.
You know, an example of that is local officials are being evaluated based on their economic performance, not just in economic performance, on their environmental performance.
So their ability to rise is based on their ability to fulfill these goals.
So this is how China is pushing this kind of idea forward because it's very complex.
You have to introduce the idea and then how we're going to do it, what effects we'll have and how we will measure those effects.
Dr. Zhou, one last question on the Eco-Environment Code.
Interestingly, the code also talks about issues people deal with every day, things like cooking fumes or unpleasant odors in neighborhoods.
Why does such a high-level law pay so much attention to these very down-to-earth concerns?
Well, that is really interesting because that law is not just for the enterprises and the government to follow.
Actually, it's also an important guideline for us, for the people, for the common people to live with.
So I think that when we're talking about that, I think these are really some of the examples that we can show that the laws are really caring about what the people really feel from they are having a better demand for the higher quality life.
Not just like before.
We are not just satisfied with the normal life, with enough products and services.
We are pursuing a better and healthier life.
So the life may be.
You know, it's something about the relations between the neighbors, between the different people's, individuals in different environment.
I think that the law is not just trying to to forbid all these things.
It's trying to remind us that when we're talking about the environment, it's not just about the industries, not only about the manufacturing.
It's also about the people's relations.
So these kind of examples are giving us more consideration space for the future on what we can do to deal with the relations between the human and the environment and the nature.
That is just some examples in my understanding.
Then gentlemen, let's now shift the gear to another law that has attracted significant attention from foreign media the Ethnic Unity and Progress Promotion Law.
Before we take a deeper look at the law itself, I'd like to ask a broader question.
China is home to 56 ethnic groups, 55 ethnic minority ones, with a population of about 125 million, according to the 2021 census, roughly equivalent to the population of a major country like Japan, Ethiopia or Mexico.
So Einar, in your view, what's the biggest misunderstanding in the Western world regarding China's ethnic policies?
People look at China and they see it as a kind of through these binary glasses.
They say majority, minority.
You know, in many countries around the world, that is the case.
But in China, it's an old country.
These aren't minorities that arrived yesterday or 60 years ago.
These are minorities who are endemic to the society.
China's framework for its sense of unity is this shared national community as diverse cultures.
You saw at the NPC and the CPCC, year after year, people shook, come.
Ethnic minorities show up in their regular ethnic dress.
And why?
Because they're showing their pride.
They're not showing their, we're hiding ourselves or we're trying to be more like you.
But it's necessary for a nation to have unity so that even before I mean China had many, many different languages.
People couldn't understand each other, even if they were five miles apart from different villages.
They would use a third language.
Simplified Chinese, Pudongwa, standardizes the language.
Why?
It's an economic necessity.
And it's also, it's something that glues society together.
If I can't communicate with you, I'm not going to understand you.
So that was a huge priority to unite China under a spoken language.
It also has economic ramifications because I can't work in another area.
I'm limited if I can't speak the language.
So language is an area where they say, OK, that has to be unified.
But in terms of ethnicity, the cultures, the different beliefs, that is unto each one of those minorities and they are protected.
Professor Alina Sear, what's the biggest misunderstanding in the West about China's ethnic policies?
Based on your experience,
Yeah, I mean, in terms of misunderstanding, I think there are two aspects.
One is the role of the Western media which I think has not educated the Western world well about China and the Chinese ethnic minorities and Chinese society.
And there's also a geopolitical dimension to it, where some media or some countries or some political leaders, for political purposes, They have spread in a way, kind of fake news about China and the opportunities that ethnic minorities have in China.
So I think not many people know that there are 56 ethnic groups in China.
They see it's like there's maybe a majority and minority, as my colleague earlier said.
And these ethnic minority groups, they are living in China.
They are part of Chinese society and they've been living for a very long time.
But until I visited China and interacted myself, I did not know that much about them.
So I think the lack of information, that is the cause of misinformation or misunderstanding.
And of course, then there's a role of media and demonizing China in a ways, or spreading rumors or spreading fake news.
I think that has also played the part and that has a geopolitical dimension.
I think the ethnic minorities.
If we look at the statistics in the last few years in areas where they have a bigger population, those parts of China, they've been growing at a faster rate than the average economic growth of China.
And they are part of the society and they've been playing their part very well.
Thanks, gentlemen, for in-depth perspectives.
Let's have a short break.
Coming back, we'll continue our discussion.
Hello, my name is Alessandro Golombievs Teixeira.
I'm a professor of public policy management at Tsinghua University in Beijing.
I am a great listener of the world today.
In my opinion, The World Today is one of the best China radio programs.
In The World Today, we can get the best news and analysis in what is happening now in the world.
So please, come to join us!
Welcome back.
You're listening to Road Today, the panel discussion with me, Ge'anna.
We've been talking about the three new laws China adopted at this year's two sessions.
Let's continue our discussion.
Dr. Zhou, again, the backdrop of such misunderstandings.
How do you interpret the significance of introducing this new law?
Well yeah, as the professors have mentioned that there are many of this misunderstanding about the relations between the minorities and the majorities.
It's not only about the ethnic problems.
It's also some combination between the ethnic, the religions and also the region.
Problems like what we know, that Uyghur is one of the kind of regions where we talk about Xinjiang.
There are a lot of issues about forced labor or other issues, and the United States even put that in the law to try to forbid it the import of the products coming from Xinjiang.
They think that is a support for those people but actually it is really violating their abilities who are living in this region.
So we know that China is a very large country and we are the only country we have sustainable development for the 5000 years.
So in the past 5000 years.
It is no wonder that we have so many interactions between the people living in the land and the people around us or even far away.
So many people just come here to settle there, to reside here in China and become part of Chinese people.
So, in my understanding that when we're putting that law, it means that we really want to show the world that what we are trying to provide for all these 56 ethnics about their rights, about the religions, beliefs and their rights about the development.
I have been to many places in China.
When the people are living very far away from the main cities, they are still provided with enough infrastructure connections.
Sometimes they are provided even better those kinds of services and the products, compared with the people living in the urban areas.
So I would say that it's not just from a code.
It is really our kind of practices to show our attitudes towards the ways of developing.
I have been interviewed by some of these people from South Africa.
And we talked about, you know, how can we have better abilities to deal with the poverty?
We talk about the people who are living in the ocean areas, who are not so advanced compared with many countries manufacturing cities or regions.
I think that is a kind of attitudes to do with this development.
So in China, no matter which ethnics you belong to, you'll have a similar rise in the development.
And sometimes I want to use the word similar, because that if you are from the minor ethnics, you can even have a better treatment.
Like if you are apply for the college.
In the examinations, you will have some additional points.
That shows that we want to give the people equal or even better rights for their development.
And we have to point out that in China, it's not just about one ethnic to ruling others.
We are coping with each other.
So we have this system to let all these people to speak for themselves.
Like Anna has just mentioned, in the NPC, every represent are just talking about what they are dreaming of.
We have a Chinese dream.
I think it's not about from one ethnic.
So the law is very important to show that attitudes and try to make that stable and fixed in the coming future.
Einar, one major highlight of the law is its emphasis on upholding a correct historical perspective of the Chinese nation.
It places priority on whether policies help strengthen the commonality of the Chinese nation and enhance the sense of a shared national community.
But some Western media have deliberately simplified this as an attempt to so-called assimilate ethnic minorities into Han culture, suggesting that it could threaten minority rights and lifestyle.
What's your response to that interpretation?
Well, there's a lot of anti-China rhetoric.
The third largest budget in the world in terms of military or aggressive budget is the United States.
And we spend a tremendous amount of money on Homeland Security, the CIA, FBI and all these groups who are supposed to be going around the world destabilizing other countries because we don't like them.
It's not surprising that you're going to run across all this stuff.
Ironically, you know, you look at the United States.
That's not exactly what I would call a land of milk and honey and welcoming people and valuing for who they are, as opposed to their ethnicity and their skin color.
So they always say assimilation, but what it really is, is promotion.
What China is doing here is protecting the rights of minorities.
So it's a national law.
It goes across the five autonomous prefectures that are minority governed.
And remember, 60% of China's landmass is actually in areas that are part of national minorities.
They're part of the fabric of China and China is moving to protect them.
So when you hear about all this stuff about oh, they're trying to assimilate or they're trying to get rid of the culture, nothing could be further from the truth.
And, you know, you don't have to believe me.
You should go to these different places and you'll see people proudly wear their ethnic dress.
They speak their local languages and they live a life which is according to their expectations, but it's still part of the fabric of China.
What China is interested in, as I said before, is economic equality.
You can't have that if you don't know the same history, if you don't understand how the government works, if you can't speak the same language, if you haven't gotten an education, if you don't have skills.
And these are things that the Chinese government did in Xinjiang.
And the press around the world went wild and they said, oh, it's ethnic cleansing.
Giving people opportunity is not ethnic cleansing.
Ethnic cleansing is what's happening in Gaza, where you're taking people's lives and livelihoods in their lands.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You're talking about China.
They're actually protecting these homelands.
They're making sure that people enjoy their full rights as Chinese.
Remember, there's no distinction.
You have minorities, but they're all Chinese.
Very insightful.
Professor Ali Nasir, how do you respond to the misinterpretation that this law could threaten minority rights and lifestyles?
Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, and part of it is the lack of information and ignorance about China, about ethnic minorities in China, how they are flourishing, how they are part of Chinese daily life and they are as Chinese as anybody else who is Chinese.
So this law is really to encourage, guide and support the ethnic minorities and codify, which has been already followed.
And, as my colleague earlier mentioned, that the ethnic minorities, in some cases they get certain advantages which maybe the majority may not have.
So they get good treatment.
And if we look at socioeconomic progress in those areas where there are ethnic minorities, they've been doing quite well.
Part of it could be addressed by just informing those people who are not informed, who don't know much about it.
I think once there's more information available to people in the West about the China, they may then question their own media and it may become a bit more difficult for the media in the West to spread the fake news.
As my colleague mentioned earlier, some parts of the world where, to say, like the treatment of Muslims in Gaza or Palestine, there is no comparison with that anywhere in the world.
But the Western media is focused less on that than creating fake news or stories about China or other countries where The ethnic minorities are flourishing actually, and living a very good life.
Dr. Zhou, one more question before we move to the next section.
Reports on the legislation note that the law focuses on encouragement, guidance and support and is defined as a promotion law.
What does that actually mean in practice?
Well, as we can find from this law, I think that there are several kinds of areas we are expected to have.
The first one is that the law has mentioned it's very important for us to build our home for the spirit.
I mean when we are communicating with each other in the different ethnics.
I think that we are trying to unite the people in China, no matter from which ethnics, to have the common understanding about the Chinese people.
I think that is our first very important symbol to provide equal opportunities for all the people from China.
And second, I think that we are able to try to protect or preserve the cultural heritage of all the ethnics.
I think it's really important because that's when we know that world is changing so fast.
We have to protect those ethnics, maybe coming from the people to people, from generation to another generation.
Maybe sometimes there are even no written languages.
We have to record that and try to put it in a better way, to protect that, because that is the diversity, that is the history.
We have to protect that.
And the third one I think that this law has ordered all the government, over the quality levels, to trying to organize the public resources and trying to make a better development of the community.
I mean, the community should be suitable for the people from all the ethnics.
It's not just trying to block the people from different ethnic.
It's trying to have a better environment or they call it an embodied community to try to build that.
I think it's a really good practice.
We can also find those practices which are really successful in Singapore.
So that is a better way for the people to communicate with each other and try to understand each other.
So there are still more practices.
And I believe that after the law has been published, there will be more details about the plans and the different kind of details.
Finally, let's talk about the national development planning law.
We know that many Western countries also have industrial policies or long term strategies.
But they are usually decided within the cabinet rather than written into law.
Einar, how do you interpret the differences between this law and similar planning in other or Western countries, for example?
The three laws that we're taking a look at today are all about establishing direction, making sure that there's a process involved to protect everybody.
The National Reform and Development Commission, which is a very powerful entity, has been leading China in terms of creating new opportunities, looking at different models and things like that.
I think this is an attempt to make sure that what they're doing is part of the regular process.
You don't want one committee above all other committees.
And I'm not saying they haven't done a terrific job.
But, you know, there's some uneasiness.
And if you go back to Zhu Rongji, previous vice premier of China, he talked about this issue that once you have a policy, it's got to be reliable.
Even if you have to change it later.
Don't put a policy in today and then change it tomorrow, because it confuses people.
People, especially business people, rely on that and it can confuse your message.
And it can sap people's feeling of confidence that they can act comfortably on what the government is saying.
This is an attempt to say, look, when we are doing a national policy, you can rely on it.
If there's a change needed, there's going to be a process that is there so that everyone can see it.
Because what people don't understand outside China is that China has a very developed process for changing laws.
And it requires comment and input both by the CPPCC delegates, also the NPC, all of the provinces, everything.
Everybody has to be involved.
And this assures that there are different perspectives being brought to bear.
And this is absolutely essential, as I said, to creating this predictability that is essential for businesses especially.
But also when you have 14 billion people in a country the size of China.
You want to keep your message very clear.
You want to keep your processes very clear and transparent.
And that's what this is.
Indeed.
Professor Alina Cyr, to some extent that China is now turning the 15th five-year plan and the future five-year plans into a dedicated law, which is quite unusual internationally.
What's the institutional significance of putting national development planning on a legal footing?
Yes, indeed.
I mean, the long-term planning in China has, it will be the 15th five-year plan.
That has been very effective since early 50s.
China has adopted this long-term planning.
And in this process, there's an input from the grassroot.
And so far, it's been delivering very well.
And China has done, really shown the world a miracle in terms of the socio-economic development.
Now this law, of course, strengthens this from the legal point of view, but it also provides the direction and it also shows that the economic goals and the objectives, they are under a legal umbrella.
So in that regard, it aim to reinforce the strategic, guiding role of national development plans in terms of the investor, in terms of businesses.
Of course, this provides more certainty when you have certainty from the legal perspective.
So the key goals indicator, the major strategic task, the policy measures, they all are now in a way under the law or in a legal framework.
So I think that regard, it is a very positive thing.
And, of course, the direction China is taking looking forward in the next five years.
This law would be very effective for that to achieve the goal it has set for itself.
Dr. Zhou, how do you understand this?
With the introduction of this law, what might it mean for China's future development trajectory?
Well, I agree with the gentleman's ideas and opinions about the law.
We are talking about the law.
Well, we have several other laws, including the laws of the urban and the rural areas planning.
That is also our kind of law to try to have more requirement about how can we coordinate the development of the urbanization and also the development of the rural areas.
So there are some more details in those laws.
But for this law, in my understanding it is more kind of very potent functions coming from the National People's Congress, because the National People's Congress are the highest power branch in China, who should be able to decide what the society would develop to.
So this is kind of a very detailed law, have many requirements.
Like you know, when the government is trying to have the national development plans, they have to provide the NTC with research reports to prove that all these targets or the goals are in the scientific research basis.
These kind of requirements and other requirements are really giving more pressure for the department who are involved in the planning compile.
So in my understanding, it's not just our important law to make it a very important position for the national planning system, but also to give more details about what the government should do.
I think that in the past many decades that China has had development on the society, on the economies, from five years to another five years and sometimes we are not able to fulfill our target.
I think that there are so many new challenges, new situations, but with this system it is very important for the investors to understand what they will face in the coming five years, so that law is really are putting the national planning systems in a higher and better way and have a more requirement about what the government should do, what the society can expect from the national planning.
So it's really a good choice for China to make the legal position of the national planning.
And it is able for the governments to allocate and use the resources even across ministries level.
Dr Zhou.
To be more precise, The supplementary provisions of this planning law say that local development plans should align with the national plan and that Hong Kong and Macau are encouraged to connect with the national development strategies.
What does this mean and how might this influence the future development planning of Hong Kong and Macau, for example?
As to the supplement, I think that has two levels.
The first levels of aligning, I mean that is based on the top-down methodologies about all the provinces should accord their development plans to do with the national levels.
But I don't think that is required them to do the same thing, like they put the investment in the same sector.
It's not like that.
The national development planning is trying to give our target with some principles, but all the provinces should do these things based on these principles, but use the different ways.
So as for the second level of Hong Kong and Macau, I think they are really special in China.
They are very important areas of the practices in the past decades and all the positions of both regions are not changed.
So in this law we can find that it's not just a requirement to align with the national plans, but trying to make the strategies to meet with the national plans.
So that means that when they are integrated in the mainland in a better way, like what we have observed in the Guangdong, Hong Kong and Macau Great Bay areas, they do need some more coordination in the development directions and the infrastructure connections or even some of the laws and the regulations.
I think that is our kind of important voice, not only for Hong Kong and Macao but for the world, that we are very integrated parts together.
The Chinese people as a whole will try to do a better coordination and we will try to have better development abilities, while at the same time leave Hong Kong and Macau their space for their special positions in the development of the society and the economy.
Gentlemen, one last set of questions.
These three pieces of legislation reportedly underwent extensive consultation with various stakeholders.
Einer, how are public perspectives and collective wisdom reflected in the final text of these laws as part of the practice of whole process?
People's democracy?
Well, that's actually in the process itself.
I mean, you have the representatives who are much more representative in terms of their backgrounds and what they represent, everything from business to housewives, trash collectors.
And they're part of this process.
You know, the mistake people make when they look at the two sessions is they say well, they only meet for a week or so.
But the fact is they're working all year round, not paid. but they're supervising.
They're making sure that the laws that are being passed are, in fact, acceptable to their different constituencies, which they're part of.
It's not like the US, where some lawyer is a US representative and doesn't really know his people.
He just does polls and things like that.
These are people who are integrated.
Now one way of thinking about the uh this, uh this uh national development planning law is that China has said that they want to have a unified market.
What people don't understand is that all the provinces have also a lawmaking authority under the national authority.
And they, you know, they do different things.
Now there are different tax structures and things like this, different incentives policies.
Uh, China signaling says okay, we're going to have a law that applies to everybody.
And, uh, that will unify the market by process.
And this is something that many people throughout China have said, yeah, we need to do this.
It's more efficient, if you're moving between provinces and cities, to be able to rely on the same set of laws, on the same set of planning initiatives and things like this.
So very, very practical stuff.
It's been vetted very thoroughly.
This plan had to be taken down literally to the village level, to what they call the work unit level.
And people have to look at it and say, okay, can this be done?
Do you have any comments?
And then it goes all the way up through the cities, provinces, up to the national level.
And then these ideas, the good ones, make it in and they're harmonized, they're reviewed again.
I always stress to people you're talking about millions and millions of work hours that are put into this kind of planning, and then you get this finished piece of legislation.
But that's not the end of it.
They anticipate that there are things you don't know at the time as Professor Chomi was talking about.
Life is dynamic, and you have to be changing it.
And you know, the only thing you know is that you will make changes.
So, They leave room for that and that, but they make it all part of one process.
So it's going to be a lot easier for people to understand.
You don't need to know the national and your provincial and your city processes.
You just have laws.
You can just rely on one that makes business a lot easier.
A very clear take on this.
Professor Alina.
Sir, you've been following China for quite some time and I'm sure you've observed the two sessions up close this year.
So how do you understand China's whole process, people's democracy?
Yes, it's a democracy which is really, I mean, a bottom-up, and it's a grassroots democracy.
It's a democracy which with the Chinese characteristics in which there is a participation.
I mean, just I was reading just of this development plan, there were more than 3 million responses.
And from the very grassroots level, there is a participation into the plan and the planning process.
And in that sense, I see it's very democratic.
And as compared to some other models where you have representatives, democracy and you have voted and then for five years or so, you don't have any say in the decision making and the decision making is done at a very narrow scale, if it is ever done.
So I think in that regard there's a lot to learn from China and the Chinese planning process and policymaking.
And also, one thing is quite amazing is the not only the depth but the breadth of the legislation.
As we just discussed today.
We started with the environmental code and in environmental respect, so that is one scope.
Then we there is also legislation about the protection and promotion and the well-being and the development of minorities, so that area is also looked after.
And then those areas of china which we could say are very well developed, like hong kong or macau region, is that it's not that the eyes are off from those that region, whatever are the needs of those areas, are that regions and what challenge those areas are people living in those areas they are facing or they may face.
They are also looked after and catered for.
So that's quite interesting that nobody's really left behind in this process or the policy making.
Policy is made by the people, for the people, and it is implemented also by the people.
So that is quite interesting.
I think the whole process from legislation to implementation.
There's a lot to learn, I think, for many other countries, from this model, which has been very successful.
We can look at various matrices.
We can look at poverty.
We can look at inequality, education, economic development and growth.
It has delivered.
So that is, I think, quite interesting for me to learn.
And I think the rest of the world has also a lot to learn from China.
Very observant.
Dr Zhou, anything to add on China's whole process, people's democracy and how public views and suggestions actually reflected in the final loss?
Well yeah, I agree with both gentlemen's opinions that China's democracy is not just from certain process.
It's not just a depends on the money that you have.
In the whole process, people's opinions are always being observed and listened.
I think that is the reason why we see all these three laws being published.
They are trying to meet the very stable targets, to meet the demand of the people and trying to guarantee their lives could be better in the future, instead of just getting some very extreme directions based on certain kind of peoples who are just elected in a certain process and who have not been even tested in the past.
Thanks to all of our panelists for those insightful analysis.
That were Muhammad Ali Nasir, professor of economics at the University of Leeds, currently a visiting professor at Peking University.
Einar Tengen, Senior Fellow at the Center for International Governance Innovation, a Canadian think tank.
Dr Zhou Mi, Senior Research Fellow with the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Cooperation.
That's all the time for this edition of World Today.
To listen to this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.
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I'm Guiana.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye for now.
