You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.
I'm your host, Elise Hu.
Comedian Chris Duffy.
Many of you might know him as the host of one of TED's hit podcasts, How to Be a Better Human, or as the creator and host of the streaming game show Wrong Answers Only, where three comedians try to understand what a leading scientist does all day.
He wants people to know that he was both a fifth grader and a fifth grade teacher.
I know him as a great friend of mine.
He's also a writer of television and now the book.
Humor Me how laughing more can make you present creative, connected and happy.
We're living in a moment that feels more serious than ever.
So why are we talking about humor?
Chris grapples with it in life and now in his book.
I'm excited to bring you a conversation between Chris and me.
We got together virtually in front of a live audience of TED members a few weeks ago to talk about his journey to humor and why he believes it's so important even when the world feels overwhelming.
It's not like laughing in that moment.
Fixed the pain or fixed the depression or fixed the underlying issue.
It didn't.
But it released the tension.
And it was this moment of lightness amidst all the heaviness.
And that, I think, is a really important thing to not underestimate.
Through funny stories.
We'll discuss his interviews with a wide range of cool people, as Chris likes to say, and the realizations he's had along the way.
We remember the negative stuff so much easier.
So the biggest takeaway for me that I think is the easiest to apply and has the biggest effect, is to keep a list of the things that make you laugh.
This conversation is part of our book club series, where we check out new books from past TED speakers that will spark your curiosity all year long.
It's coming up right after a short break from our sponsors.
We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years.
But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone.
I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of Ted's How to Be a Better Human podcast.
Find how to be a better human wherever you're listening to this.
And now our conversation of the day.
Chris, welcome to the book club.
Thank you so much for having me.
Wow, what an honor.
Glad to be here talking with the legend, Elise Hu.
Oh, wow.
You are clearly humoring me with that one.
Let's jump right in.
You structure your book around three pillars of humor.
For those listening who haven't read it yet, could you start by talking us through the pillars and start with the first one?
Yeah.
So the first one is being present.
So noticing the strange and unusual and absurd things in the world around you.
The second one is laughing at yourself, noticing the strange and absurd in yourself as well.
And then the third one is taking social risks.
So like putting yourself out there and not being afraid to be laughed at or to look a little absurd sometimes.
So those are the three.
And the first one is is, I think, kind of the root of everything else, which is you can't laugh if you're not noticing the things that are funny.
If you're half there, you're not gonna laugh.
Okay, you urge us in order to be present to think really small.
Why?
Well, I mean look, I can't.
This is not going to be breaking news to anyone that if you look at the world outside and you go big picture, it's often overwhelming and bad and scary and not funny.
But one of the things that I love about humor in all in all seriousness, is that humor is kind of the opposite of toxic positivity, where you're like.
There's a bright side to everything.
Don't worry.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Like sometimes that's just not true at all.
And I think what I love about humor is that you can find something to laugh at without denying the overwhelming negativity or violence or frustration or pain.
Right.
You don't have to ignore that.
You can laugh in that moment.
And I think the easiest way to find that the things that are funny is to look at the small details, the things that are just a little off or a little weird or a little unexpected.
And then to think like, why is that that way?
And often that is where you'll find the ability to laugh is the typo or the weirdly arranged mannequin?
Like small things like that can be funny even when the big things are overwhelming.
Can you share an example or two of things that you have found particularly like absurd or just specifically funny?
That gets this point across.
Yeah.
So you know one of the biggest recommendations that I have on my show, How to Be a Better Human.
I'm always trying to figure out like, how do you take a big idea and make it so that a regular person can actually use it?
And now I'm interestingly on the other side of that of being like how do I convey these ideas in a way that people can use?
And I know that people who listen to TED Talks Daily are really big into that.
So the one that I'll say is the biggest takeaway for me, that I think is the easiest to apply and has the biggest effect is is to keep a list of the things that make you laugh.
So when you notice something that just genuinely makes you laugh or smile or you think is funny, to not like assume that you'll remember that, because often those things disappear and we remember the negative stuff so much easier.
So if you keep a list whether it's a physical list, or you print out the story that made you laugh, or you print out a copy of the meme, or you save a copy on a digital thing, having a list of them can be really, really funny.
Later on, when you're struggling, you'll have the things that naturally made it.
So for me, I have this list and I'm going to tell you a few things that are on my list recently.
OK, OK.
So I have a toddler.
I have a two year old.
And I was at the playground and you know I try my best to let him have a little bit of independence, like I'm still supervising.
But a lot of other parents are really close monitoring their little kids.
And so at the playground I saw a little kid was going up and going down the slide and this dad, like
Ran up there to supervise, which, you know, no judgment on that.
But the thing that really made me laugh is this very serious, like stone faced dad then had to get down from the top of the play structure.
And the way he got down was to ride down the slide, but like not having any fun at all.
So just like a very serious man going like.
Right.
And we're down.
And that to me was such a funny, silly little moment that I could have easily not noticed.
Or I tried to log into my health care provider's portal to get like a test result from my my checkup.
OK.
And it said not available right now.
Please log in after some time.
Like it didn't say an actual time.
And that also made me laugh because it was so unbelievably unhelpful and frustrating.
But the absurdity of log in after some time made me laugh.
So those are two really small ones.
What do you feel like it does for you to just list these out or take note of them, as you have not only been working on the book, but just in your life?
Yeah.
I mean, I'll give you a parallel example.
I am not a birder.
I don't know a lot about birds.
Okay.
But I watched a documentary about birding that was really fun.
That was called Listers.
Highly recommend.
Okay.
But I watched this documentary.
And then, when I walked outside after watching this documentary, all of a sudden I was hearing bird song everywhere.
Like I was seeing birds.
I was hearing bird song.
And it wasn't that all of a sudden I'd walked out into some sort of once in a century migration.
It was that...
Paying attention to the idea of birding had alerted me to these things that existed in the world all around me, that I had previously just kind of been completely numb to or were blurry and in the background.
And I think that when you pay attention to anything, you start to see more of that.
You build the muscle of seeing it, but also just rises to your awareness.
And so one thing that I love about paying attention to the funny things and the delightful things and the absurd things is you discover that the world is actually filled with them.
They are everywhere.
And it's just that you hadn't previously paid attention to them.
Today, when you are going through times where maybe you're struggling to be present and pay attention, what are some things you do to bring yourself back into that place of noticing and finding things humorous?
Yeah.
And I'm not going to lie.
This is really hard.
I think this is the hardest part.
And I think there's.
You know, this is the deep irony to in writing a book that's all about like how you can laugh more and be present and happy and creative and connected.
And then being like I'm overwhelmed and I'm on my phone and I'm so tired because the kids aren't sleeping.
And I'm trying to be more present.
Yeah.
And then people are like, aren't you the like laughing present guy?
And I'm like, not right now.
I'm not.
So I think I just will acknowledge that it's not always easy.
But I think the thing that almost everyone has had this experience is laughing really hard with a friend or a family member, where you're laughing so hard that you're crying and like your sides are hurting because you're laughing so hard.
And what I love about that experience is it's so fun, but it's also like we are 100 percent locked in with that other person.
We are so connected. present with them.
You're not half there.
You're not like half on your phone checking emails and half listening.
You are 100% there.
And so one of the biggest ways that you can like get into this present connection is to actually be laughing really hard.
And so to really embrace that and to spend time with people who make you laugh and to embrace laughing with other people, that's like.
The most joyful way is to actually just do the laughing.
This first pillar is so much about being present and aware of what you're doing and where you are, and not trying to like teleport somewhere else through your phone or through your worries about what will come next or all these other pieces.
I mean, this is a lot of like what people get through meditation.
But for me, meditation has always been a little bit challenging, like homework and broccoli.
And I think doing it through laughter and humor is. makes it so that it's fun.
It's your form of meditation.
Totally.
I mean listen, a lot of people have told me that it is both fun and very frustrating to try and move from point A to point B with me, because I'm constantly like, do you see this sign in the window?
Hey, isn't that a weird hat on that mannequin?
Oh my gosh, look at this kid's shoes.
Like I'm constantly paying attention to those things.
And it makes it so that I move slowly between places.
But as a result, I'm seeing a lot of things that are delightful.
I'm glad you brought up just like cracking up until we cry with our friends, because I was just in a moment like this yesterday at dinner with some friends of ours and They were making fun of me, which is usually why we end up laughing so hard.
It's because there are very specific jokes about me that are hilarious, and then I'm laughing and they're laughing, which leads us to the second pillar, which is about laughing at yourself, right.
Yeah.
Why is this such a pillar of humor?
Well, you know, the biggest reason why I wanted to write this book is because I think people have a really misguided idea of what it means to be funny in the first place, or what it means to have a sense of humor.
I think people think that it is about like getting the attention.
So it's like I stand in a room and I'm surrounded by a circle of people and I'm telling a story and everyone's laughing and I'm so cool.
And and.
Not to say that that's not great, but to me that's not the form of humor that I really want to encourage.
What I want to encourage is the idea that we can have a life where we are constantly delighted and finding things that are funny and we're laughing with other people.
And it doesn't have to be you that's creating the laughter.
It can be the people around you.
Kind of the seed of this book came because there was a a sociological study that looked at dating apps.
And I read this and I was like, oh okay, I gotta look more into this, because it found that basically across the board, people were really interested in finding a partner who had a great sense of humor.
But when they drilled down into what that meant, they asked heterosexual men and heterosexual women.
What does that mean to you?
And heterosexual women said a partner with a great sense of humor means someone who I can laugh with.
And heterosexual men said a partner with a great sense of humor means someone who laughs at my jokes.
And I think that is like listen to my heterosexual brothers out there.
That is, I think, a completely misguided understanding of what it actually means to have.
A sense of humor doesn't have to be you, it's how can we have more laughter all together and in the world?
And so i think one of the easiest ways to do that is to have a sense of humor about yourself, to to not make it so that it is uh, how can i be the coolest looking person?
But instead, how can we laugh and see the ridiculousness in ourselves as well?
And you are so good at this at least.
I mean, i know this is a friend.
I laugh with my friends constantly, partially because they're laughing at me.
I actually think to like tie this into a deeper, more like philosophical thing.
I think that we so often get wrong the idea that we think people want us to be perfect.
We think that, like the way to impress other people or to make them like us, or to connect with other people, is to be perfect and impressive and flawless.
And in fact-
We don't like people like that, right?
Like if you meet someone and they're like I started 10 billion companies and I have a six pack and both my kids are going to Harvard.
You're like, oh, you're so intimidating.
Or like, I hate you.
Or it feels cyborg-y, right?
It feels like an avatar of a human being.
You don't want to talk to that person.
At best, you're intimidated.
And at worst, you're like, I just hate this person.
I don't.
If you meet someone who's a little bit of a mess and acknowledges that they haven't got things all figured out, that's a person you want to talk more to.
You can connect to.
You can relate to.
And so I think laughing at yourself is an easy way to actually make people feel like you are approachable and connectable and relatable.
On the flip side of this.
I want to take this to the realm of teasing, which then can also go into the zone of bullying.
Because when I think at laughing at folks, including myself it also sometimes – can be hurtful, right.
Some of the times that we're teasing one another it, depending on how sensitive we are or what the jokes are about, people might say oh, i was just joking, or just teasing you or ribbing what are?
Where is the line between good and bad?
Laughing at yourself?
Yeah, I think it's a really good point, and I think it's an important one too, that laughing is not something that is inherently always positive, right?
If you imagine a bully, like just a quintessential bully, in your head, one thing that you might be picturing as an image is a group of people all pointing and laughing at someone.
Right, right.
So the laughter is involved there too, and that's certainly the wrong kind of humor, the wrong kind of laughter.
That's not what I'm encouraging at all.
I will say that finding where the line is is, and this is probably frustrating, but I don't think that there's some one universal line.
And I think it is subjective and it's context dependent.
But I think a way to think about it is to think like if you're making a joke about yourself, let's start there.
If you're making a joke about yourself and it's something that you are not self-conscious about, but you are aware is a foible right.
Like for me, I am not insecure about the idea that I am bad at sports.
I know that I am bad at sports.
That's fine.
So when I joke about like...
Oh, man, if you see me on the football field, something has gone horribly wrong.
Like, that isn't me bullying myself because it's not a real insecurity.
Whereas sometimes you know like oh, I can make a joke about something that I actually do have insecurities about.
Like oh, I'm actually not that helpful of a parent or I'm like not doing a good job as a partner, right?
Like if I'm making those kinds of jokes, then maybe it's like huh, am I using the laugh to try and get ahead of other people pointing out something about me?
Like, am I trying to say it first so that they can't say it first?
And that I think is not a way to talk about yourself.
And then for other people.
I think you want to err on the side of like laughing in a kind way, right?
Rather than laughing in a harsh way.
So let them take the lead is one thing.
Like if you see me and I'm laughing about my sports ineptitude, that's probably an okay thing.
But I think the other thing is whenever people say, like how do I make sure I don't say something mean or cruel when I'm laughing?
Yeah.
I say...
If you want more humor in your life but you're worried about that, maybe experiment with you not being the one making the joke.
Like maybe experiment with you laughing more.
And like when someone else makes a joke, you're laughing with them, because that is really supportive.
People love when they make a joke and someone laughs with them rather than you making a joke at them.
And I think the more you know people, you know where their fault lines are and where the insecurities and kind of dangerous sensitive areas are.
And then you can avoid those.
But there's not a black and white line.
I think that's a great point about affirming others by laughing at their jokes.
You know, like i'm a good audience, i pride myself on being a good audience and supportive, like whether i'm actually in an audience or just at lunch with you, for example.
Yes, you are, you're such, i mean, and this is one of the joys of hanging out with you, and i'm really not just saying this because we're like you know, because you're here conversation, but like you are so fun to talk to, because when we have a conversation you're, You can tell that you're having a good time and we're laughing and I'm laughing and it's just.
It makes it so joyful.
And so, you know, I got a tip once that was like a this is kind of a side thing.
But like, yeah, I was trying to, like, figure out how do you pitch a TV show?
What do you do when you're in these meetings?
And someone said as a as a professional tip that I think actually applies to literally everything, not just like the professional world of TV writing is.
They said, one small thing is like when you're not talking.
Mm hmm.
When you're listening and you're in these meetings and you're really nervous, try smiling.
Just like have smiling be your default so that, like it reminds people that you're having fun and you're enjoying being there.
And I think that the more that we can make our defaults and you know, I'm not saying you should go to like a tragic funeral and be like hello
But if you can, in a conversation with someone, be like I'm going to smile and laugh and make sure you know that I like being here and I like talking with you.
That works.
That goes well 99% of the time.
Yeah.
I can hear how all of these tips that you've talked about are actionable for how to teach our kids about humor.
Is there other advice that you can offer about how to teach our kids about humor in a way that doesn't include harming others or being cruel to others?
Yeah, I mean, I think at the core of this question right is like how do you teach someone to be empathetic?
How do you teach someone to be kind and caring?
And obviously, I'm a big fan of laughter.
I'm a big fan of humor.
But realizing that, like just because it gets a laugh doesn't mean that it is kind or caring or right.
That's an important thing.
Because this is actually something that I have really struggled with and had to learn in my life is realizing like just because people are laughing doesn't mean that that's good.
Like you could be hurting their feelings or you could be monopolizing so much of the conversation.
And if they're laughing, that's not an endorsement.
So I can think of two times that really stand out.
One is when I was first dating my wife.
We went to dinner with her friends and one of her friends' parents.
And I kind of imagined my like role was to entertain.
And so I told all my best stories and I had people laughing and we left the dinner and I thought like I crushed.
People were laughing so much.
I made everyone have a great time.
And Molly, my wife was like, that was horrible.
You didn't let anyone else talk the whole time.
And I was so surprised because I was like, but everyone was laughing.
They had a great time.
Isn't that what we wanted?
And I think that was really helpful, valuable feedback to me to realize that you actually need to give other people space and not just think it's like the Chris show all the time.
And so that's why again, I think there can be a real generosity to the right kind of humor.
That is about not you being on stage, but instead appreciating other people and paying close attention to them and to what they're saying and to what they find funny.
And then I think the other thing is for kids especially, I think that idea that we have to be perfect and that that's what other people want from us.
I think that gets taught really young.
And so I think if you want kids to understand how to care for others, one really great way is to teach them to care for themselves by embracing the things that are maybe their.
I'm going to say like quote, unquote flaws
But to show them that, like that actually is what people will connect with you on the things that are weird and strange and different about your gifts.
And in comedy, we really think about that as a gift.
Like there's no more boring comedy scene than two happy people sit and eat a normal meal where nothing weird happens, right?
Like it only starts getting fun and interesting when something goes wrong or when someone says something weird or unexpected.
And so I think that, the more that I'm trying with my own kids, to imbue them with the idea that a mistake is a gift and there's no such thing as something that's like weird and wrong if you are willing to share it and connect with other people on it.
I love that.
I love that.
You're listening to a conversation between me and comedian and writer Chris Duffy.
We're going to take a short break.
We'll be right back to our conversation.
Stick around.
Hey, it's Adam Grant, and I believe that work shouldn't suck.
On my podcast, Work Life, I dive into the latest insights and science on jobs, leadership and teams.
Spoiler alert there are some surprisingly simple solutions to making your work life better, no matter what you do.
Check out my podcast, Work Life with Adam Grant, wherever you listen.
All right, let's move to the third pillar.
What is it?
And take us through.
Yeah, so the third pillar is putting yourself out there.
It's taking social risks.
It's being willing to be laughed at a little bit.
And you know, I think, the two being present and laughing at yourself, they lead to this one, which is to say like okay, now you've.
You've seen the funny things.
You started to get a sense of what makes you laugh.
You started to have more of a sense of humor about yourself.
So what do you do with that?
And what I would say is share that with other people.
And if this makes you nervous, a lot of people have asked me, like, I'm an introvert or I'm shy.
How do I do that?
And what I'll say is I think you can do this in really low stakes ways.
So one of the most low stakes ways which you can do all alone is to take a social risk can be to do something that is out of your routine.
So maybe it's like you always spend your weekends going to the same places and they're fun and they're wonderful, but they're not exciting and different and funny.
And so maybe one day you see a sign for like a festival.
That is something completely different than you would normally do.
Like I moved to L.A.
Yeah.
And I love L.A.
And one of the things that is fun about LA is there are all sorts of weird, you know, like kind of far out new age spirituality things.
And so I thought like, you know what?
Like I see this sign that says like a past lives regression festival.
And I got a I would never go to that.
But I bet you that it will be funny and make me laugh and be exciting and different.
And so I went and it was bizarre.
And I certainly didn't end up like connecting with my 12th dimensional self, which is what one of the workshops promised.
I'm sorry but but it was.
So I spent such a such a really like memorable Sunday walking around this fair and touching all the crystals and hearing about all of how our alien selves affect our present human selves.
I didn't like none of that became real to me, but it was something I wouldn't have done.
And it was really like inspired a lot of laughter and joy and memories for me.
And so not everyone's going to be able to travel to, like the past lives regression festival, but you could go in the weird shop that you've always wondered about.
You could see a sign for a yard sale or an estate sale and go and try and find like what is the strangest, most bizarre thing to you there?
And again, you don't even have to make that public.
You don't have to tell anyone about it, but like, taking yourself a little bit out of your, your comfort zone can often lead to you finding things that are really funny and memorable.
And then the other one that's very small is.
One of the ways that we take the least social risk is in conversations with people we don't know that well.
We tend to just say like, so how are you?
What do you do? yeah, oh, weather's been crazy.
So nice, it's not raining anymore.
Or wow, it's been raining a lot.
And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's no risk involved.
And as a result, it's very unlikely that you and the other person will like laugh or connect.
So I think you can take like a low risk thing and to ask them a question that's just a little unusual but that you actually are interested in, or is a little funny.
So I'll give you an example where it was like, I just had the best soup of my entire life.
And it actually made me wonder, what's the worst soup you've ever eaten?
Now, the person might be like, this is weird.
Why are you asking me about terrible soups?
But you'll probably have a conversation that is a little bit more memorable and funny and has the potential for laughter than other things.
Yes.
Doesn't have to be that exact thing, but just something that is true to you and then opens the door to some other possibilities.
I like that.
I like that.
Okay.
Cheryl R wrote in to say, seeing the humorous side of life has always been challenging.
I've often heard lighten up.
So I enjoy laughing, and especially improv comedy.
But how can the lighter side of life come more naturally to me?
And Rebecca G, I'm just going to sandwich these or put them together.
Rebecca G asks, can you train yourself to be funny?
So this is sort of related.
I enjoy being around witty people.
I'd like to be more of one.
How do you respond to Rebecca and Cheryl?
Yeah, I think these are great questions.
And I think that my short answer is like, yes, you can learn to do it.
I really believe that humor is a muscle.
I think that it is a practice.
And I think that the more that you pay attention, the easier it gets to see things that are delightful.
But the other thing I'll say is...
I want you to be easy on yourself and not beat yourself up about this, because I think that you know there's an irony of being like I'm trying so hard to have fun.
It's not fun.
And I'm going to punish myself for not having fun.
So I think one of the things that I would do is if you do enjoy. witty remarks.
You do enjoy, like laughing at funny videos and funny TV shows and movies and plays to just again like start by noticing what makes you laugh.
Keep a list.
What's the funniest moment in that play?
What's the the line from the video that always makes you laugh?
Keep that list and kind of have that as a physical thing that you can refer back to, because then you're building up your own arsenal of what makes you laugh.
And And the second part is to practice.
That attention piece of here is something a little odd.
Huh?
That strikes me as funny.
That strikes me as unusual.
That strikes me as something I want to know a little bit more about.
And the more that you are working that muscle and then also building this bank of things that have made you laugh from the outside, I think you'll just find that it bleeds into the other parts of your life.
And the last thing I'll say is it's got to be like the social part of humor.
It depends on the right people.
I have worked professionally in comedy for more than a decade.
I laugh a lot in my life, but there's plenty of people who are they and I do not click on the laughter level.
And I just I can't laugh with them.
So it may be that you also need to find the people who are aligned with you.
OK, good advice.
All right.
We are here.
We're both authors and professional podcasters, but we're also here today as a comedian you and a journalist me.
And in your book you quote former correspondent for The Daily Show, Roy Wood Jr, who told you that comedy is journalism.
What do you think he meant by that and why is that important to you?
Yeah, well, Roy Wood Jr., I think is a... First of all, I just think he's brilliant.
I think he's one of the single greatest stand-up comedians working today.
And, you know, Roy's father, Roy Wood Sr., was a pioneering civil rights journalist.
He covered the Soweto riots in South Africa.
He was covering a lot of issues in the civil rights movement that were before they were covered by other news outlets.
So Roy grew up with this like real importance of journalism and the way that it can make a difference.
And I think what Roy means to put words in his mouth which he would do much more articulately is that we laugh because we're shown something right.
Like a joke makes you pay attention to something in a new way.
Often when we laugh, we say like, that's so true, or I never thought of it that way.
And his point is like if he's pointing out something about the way that they sell bread at the supermarket, that might not be like an investigative report on the front page of The New York Times.
But in some way, he is looking deeper into it and trying to find out what is the truth?
What is the thing about that that's going to make people laugh and connect?
You're observing with a sense of curiosity.
And that's absolutely what journalism is.
Right.
It's relentlessly observing and being curious about things.
And also, I know, you know, in the TED world there's so many people who are scientists and entrepreneurs.
And there's a long history of incredible discoveries and innovations happening after a person goes huh, that's funny and tries to figure out why.
Right.
Like we have this idea that a great discovery happens after someone goes, Eureka.
Right.
But in fact, it's so much more common that they go, huh, that's funny.
Why did that happen?
And that's the seed of all great reporting too.
I always say like great reporting starts with great questions, you know, or just one great question.
And also like in a great interview, like when you're reporting or when you're talking to someone, you shouldn't necessarily know what they're going to say next.
You should be open to being surprised.
And that element of surprise is so often what makes us laugh.
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't think you were going to say that.
Yeah.
All right.
In the book you share the story of the Museum of Bad Art, which is a real place that's based in Boston.
Their tagline is, art too bad to be ignored.
And this made me think about perspective because, as we've talked about what's good or bad, or funny or serious, that's does often seem really specific to the context or the people that you're with or the moment in place.
The TED community is a really global one, and many of our TED Talks, daily listeners listen from all over the world.
So, in this conversation around finding humor and learning to laugh more, I want to ask a question from TED member Katie B R, who wrote in how do you find humor that translates across culture and languages?
Are there any golden rules or universal truths that exist in the journey towards humor?
That's a great question.
I love that question.
I am of the opinion that the best jokes, the most fun ways to laugh with your friends and your family are actually not universal, that they're specific and that they build the relationship between you and the other person.
So I would say like to me the most satisfying humor is when it's you and a person who you've known for a long time or you feel really connected to.
And Only the two of you can understand that, or only the group of people like that to me is so fun because then you're just.
It has built this kind of community and language with between the two of you.
That being said, there's a lot of really interesting science about what makes people laugh and the evolution of humor and the ways in which humor actually can exist, not just in humans, but in other animals.
And so there's a.
University of Colorado Boulder has a lab called the Humor Research Lab and they their acronym is HU capital RL.
Hurl, which is their version of like the joke for their name.
Yes.
But a theory came out of there called the benign violation theory.
So that that is that we laugh when something is a violation.
It breaks the rules.
It does something it's not supposed to, but it's not harmful or scary or painful.
So it's a benign violation.
And the classic example of a benign violation is a tickle.
A tickle is an attack that isn't actually a painful attack.
And so a tickle or an I'm going to get you is one of the oldest and most universal forms of humor, right?
Like animals laugh at the I'm going to get you or their version of a laugh.
You can do this with a baby.
This is a cross culture.
So, you know, it doesn't it's only a benign violation if you know the person who's tickling you.
A stranger running up and tickling you is very much not a benign violation.
Yeah, and you don't, you're not gonna laugh at that.
So that's one version.
And then, look, I'm not a mature person.
I know that Ted is like ideas worth spreading.
Ted is ideas change everything.
Ted is smart people.
I gotta say, I'm not mature and I'm not one of you distinguished people of wisdom.
So I will just say, I also think that like a fart, that's always funny.
I gotta say, a fart or poop, that's universal to me.
So-
You know my two-year-old has just kind of like achieved like language and some of the things that he started saying.
The other day he pointed at his diaper and said, big fart.
And I was like, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard anyone say.
So I also think that's one version.
But then you know, I'll give you one other serious one, because that's prompting it is.
I think you can often make people laugh when we're talking about like cross-cultural or cross-language.
Saying the true and honest, genuine thing often makes people laugh.
So there's a lot of comedy to be had in how things don't translate in, how much it doesn't go universal right.
Like that is often very funny too to say this would be funny to my friends, but it's not going to make any sense to you.
Right.
Your journey to this book has been a long one, but also really beautiful to get to witness as your friend.
Oh, thank you.
You've transitioned careers.
You've become a successful comedian and writer.
You gave a TED Talk about how to find laughter anywhere.
So listeners, if you haven't seen Chris's TED Talk, be sure to find that.
And that helped lead to this book.
If you could give one piece of advice to your younger self. the young fifth grader, Chris Duffy, or did you go by Christopher back then?
Or were you Chris in fifth grade?
I've always been Chris, but people have every you know serious.
When I was in trouble, it's always Chris.
Okay, got it.
So you're giving advice to the fifth grade, the 11 year old Chris Duffy.
What would that advice be?
Man, I...
This is a hard question.
I think like in so many ways I would not give my younger self advice, because first of all I'd be like who is this tired looking bearded man?
Why is he here?
But also- This guy's 104 years old.
Yeah, like that man has surely, that man is 80 years old.
When you're coming to me from 2090?
And I'm like, no, it's only 2026.
What are you talking about, little Chris?
That's so hurtful.
And he'd be like, I'm so sorry.
And you contracted the plague?
And I'm like, no, this is how I look when I'm healthy.
I honestly think though that, like one of the big messages that I want people to take away from my book, and also that I learned in researching it, is that all of the mistakes and the things that supposedly went wrong, or the things that are imperfect or bad, those are mistakes, the ripest things to have you laugh at.
Those are the ripest things to create humor and have potentials for laughter in your life.
And you know that sometimes comedians talk about this formula of like comedy equals tragedy plus time, which is the idea that, like anything bad, is possible for you to see humor in if you have enough distance from it.
So I think that I would kind of not.
I wouldn't want to correct any of the mistakes that I've made, but maybe I'd be like you should invest heavily in Apple as soon as you have money.
That will let you own a home and it will like give you a lot more career flexibility.
So maybe I would just be like.
I would just give my 11 year old self a list of stocks and be like if you can, please invest in these stocks.
That will help me out a lot.
And I promise I'm going to look a lot younger if I can afford good skincare.
So we reached out to Chris as we were planning this to ask if there was any sort of activity that he'd be interested in doing.
And he said what if folks write in with something going on in their lives or an area of their life like dating aging grief, where they find it particularly challenging to find the humor?
But they'd be open and curious to finding laughs in, and I'll try to offer some suggestions.
This seemed like the perfect way to get at this very sticky point, an important point about humor in the world.
And so thank you to all of our members out there who have submitted.
We received so many submissions from our members.
And just to start Chris, many people submitted that they or a loved one are dealing with chronic or terminal illness.
Each of these questions asked about if and how they might be able to find humor in truly horrible and scary situations.
And if there was a way of finding their way back to humor at all after losing their sense of humor.
And you share a really beautiful moment of vulnerability in your own book when you write about the challenging time that you and your wife went through, during which she got seriously ill and no one could figure out what was wrong.
And over time, as you described it, humor really became an important tool for both of you to get through that.
So let's start there with your own story.
Can you share briefly what happened and maybe a bit about how you found your way back to humor during that time?
Yeah.
So without going too deep into the weeds, I'll say that several years ago my wife started having some injuries and some chronic pain that was really hard to go away.
And she went from kind of being fully independent and capable to being really unable to take care of herself or even like walk more than like a block or two, without really debilitating pain.
So I was her primary caretaker and it was a really tough time.
It was a tough time physically, but also it was a tough time mentally and emotionally because she was feeling really hopeless.
And the fact that there wasn't a clear medical answer, it was getting worse and worse and worse.
And it was a very dark time.
And it was really scary as she was starting to struggle with suicidal ideation.
And we were just really in a dark moment.
And it was certainly the darkest and scariest moment of my life and of our life too.
And it's really important to me to say, it's not like I was like...
But at the end of the day, it's still funny.
Like it wasn't funny at all.
It was really, really dark.
But there were these moments where I or we could find something to laugh at.
And what I found was that any time that happened, it was like this giant bursting of a balloon of tension where, all of a sudden, we could breathe again.
And so one of those moments that really stands out in my mind is Molly was like trying to figure out like what could possibly?
How could she possibly like reset things?
How could she have a change everything in her life?
And she, she had this idea of like, maybe I'll go to a silent retreat center.
I found out she had researched it and found out that there was a silent retreat center where, if you cleaned the dishes and the bathrooms, they would let you live there for free.
And so you could stay there as long as you needed to heal.
And I said like, I hear you.
And I just don't think like I'm taking care of you so much.
And I don't think you moving to a remote retreat center where you won't be able to be in phone or Internet contact.
I don't think that's a really safe decision right now.
Like I I wouldn't be able to to know if you needed help.
And she said, oh, well, you would come with me.
And I am like the biggest yapper of all time.
Like I love to.
Yeah, you've heard I can't answer anything in like less than five minutes of talking.
And the idea even she in that moment, the idea of me spending an extended period of time at a completely silent retreat center.
Both of us were just like yeah, you're not going to make it, Chris.
You would not survive that.
I would be like desperately trying to signal with my eyes like look at that funny thing over there.
So that was like a moment where we laughed.
And the thing that I want to point out is it's not like laughing in that moment fixed the pain, or fixed the depression, or fixed the underlying issue.
It didn't.
But it released the tension.
And it was this moment of relief. of lightness amidst all the heaviness.
And that, I think, is a really important thing to not underestimate that that, especially when you're dealing with something like suicidal ideation and like depression, being able to get through the day, that's not like oh kind of nice.
Like that's the whole thing, getting through the hour, getting through the day.
And so if you can find even one of these moments every once in a while, that can be a huge huge huge, And you know, for us, because that was so transformative, one thing we started trying to do is to find, like is there a way that we can end every day with just one small laugh?
And the things that we found were often there was nothing funny from our lives that day.
But like, maybe it was like watching a YouTube video of outtakes from the office, or there's a.
There's a community on Reddit called Contagious Laughter.
That's just people laughing so hard and so genuinely that it is contagious to hear them laugh.
And it was really amazing to find that not every day, not on the absolute worst days, but on a lot of really bad days, we could watch a clip or hear some of that contagious laughter and we would laugh ourselves.
And it would change the tenor of that hour.
It would change the tenor of that evening in a really positive way.
Thank you for sharing your story, first of all.
And thanks again to so many of our members who submitted questions.
Chris, why don't you take it away and read us our first submission for your Comedy Rx?
Great.
And I love that people submitted these ones.
Okay, so the first one is about job loss, and it's from Iman.
Hi Chris.
I am currently unemployed and it's been a challenging and humbling season, filled with uncertainty, stress and a few awkward.
So what are you up to these days?
Moments.
I'd love your guidance on how to find humor in this in-between phase, how to laugh without minimizing the pressure and how to use humor to stay resilient while figuring out what's next.
So first of all, I will just say like.
That is really hard.
And I think being able to find humor in a moment where you are feeling less than your best self is maybe sometimes the best way to do.
It is to acknowledge what what you're feeling.
Right.
Like, so what are you up to these days?
Oh, that's a tough question.
That's a hard question to answer is often like your genuine reaction to the thing can be a way to find laughter in it.
Also some other places, like we all know how incredibly bizarre and soul sucking going on LinkedIn can be.
There's so much humor there.
I mean, I have extended relationship with LinkedIn that led to me being permanently banned.
But.
But you can.
You can find humor in some of those moments of the absurdity which is again like.
I think the way to find resilience is is to acknowledge that it is hard.
It's not to pretend like, hey, this is fun and applying for jobs and getting rejected.
That's fun because I'm laughing about it.
It's like, oh, this is so bad and it's so brutal.
That in itself is funny.
I think like one of the things that always happens to me when I'm in those moments is I'm like desperate to clean the house.
I'm like scrubbing the toilet and I'm like, thank God I can scrub the toilet.
So it means I don't have to update my resume.
I think there's there's humor in that.
So I would acknowledge your genuine feelings.
And I think that can be a way to connect with people and also know like that's a very relatable and universal thing.
So I think anyone else who's in that position or has been in that position is probably going to laugh and be able to commiserate with you.
Yeah, it could be a connection point.
Yeah.
And you know, with this idea of connection point, I want to point out that something that has come up a lot in talking about the book is, like people who have a really hard stressful work or stressful things in their personal life, they often have great senses of humor.
And that's not coincidental.
But an important part is that if you are like an emergency room doctor.
You can really connect and laugh and have these kind of like dark jokes with other emergency room doctors.
But if I try and make that same joke with you, it is not going to be funny.
And that's because the laughter lets you know, like, we're not the only ones who feel like this.
The other person also feels like that.
So I would not try and like laugh about being unemployed and having a brutal soul sucking job search.
I wouldn't try and laugh about that with your like gainfully employed friend.
They're probably just not going to be able to make you laugh about it.
Whereas the other friend who is similarly in it and is also trying to find something to laugh about, that might be a person who is more able to find humor with you.
Really good point.
And I was just going to say the. funniest person in my life, I think, is an emergency room doctor.
So there is some correlation there between what they must see and go through and then being able to cope with humor.
Social workers teachers soldiers, people in really tough, high-stress environments are often the funniest people because you need to laugh to release that tension, to do the thing.
Do you want to read our next one?
Yeah.
So Steve, who is related to that?
Steve says I and many of my colleagues have been laid off or took early retirement from meaningful government jobs in STEM areas.
How do I stay upbeat after losing my life's work and purpose?
How do I live with fun and humor during these times where the scientific process and education are under assault and have decreasing funding?
That's hard.
I would say Steve.
My first thing is like I think there's something that is very funny and also endearing about the idea that, like we should stay upbeat after losing my life's work and purpose.
I think it's like, maybe not.
That's really bad.
It's a disaster.
The fact that you are feeling negative about that is totally reasonable.
And I think you don't have to deny that to find the humor.
We don't always have to laugh directly about the stuff.
Like, if you are feeling despair about the way that the government whatever your government is, I mean certainly in the United States but if you have despair about the way that your government is approaching scientific funding or policy, it's not necessarily the case that you have to laugh about that specific thing.
You can find laughter in other things.
Like.
The funniest video I've ever seen is of an Australian man, who's a reporter on television, holding a large chicken, and then the chicken flaps its wings and he screams and runs away.
Like that video is not...
Has nothing to do with scientific funding, but that might be a thing that makes me laugh and lets me have the humor in my life, even though the thing is bad.
So I would encourage you to not think you have to laugh just at the hard thing, but you can also laugh at the silly, ridiculous things.
And that can be a way to get humor into.
Okay.
All right.
What other submission have you chosen?
Okay.
So this is one that's interesting because it's about AI, which Sofal has written in and says I'm writing to you from the front lines of a very specific high stakes battleground colon, the intersection of higher education and the existential dread of generative AI.
Now My first question as soon as I read this was anytime someone has like an intro line like that, I'm like did you write this with AI?
But we'll find out.
As a professor at a school focused on global leadership, I recently spent an afternoon staring at a pile of 19 student essays.
My challenge isn't just the grading.
It's the Blade Runner level of paranoia that comes with it.
I find myself analyzing a student's use of a semicolon like a forensic investigator, wondering did a human heart beat while this sentence was written, or was it birthed in a server farm in Oregon?
I'm trying to teach principled innovation, but I feel like I'm actually teaching how to outsmart the robot that is currently summarizing this email.
My life has become a series of prove-you-are-human CAPTCHA tests.
But instead of clicking on traffic lights, I'm trying to convince 20-somethings that their own original thoughts are more valuable than a perfectly manicured paragraph from a machine.
How do I find the humor in this man versus machine loop?
How do I laugh at the fact that I'm using AI to help me grade essays that were likely written by AI?
Essentially letting two programs talk to each other, while I sit here in Phoenix wondering if I've become the middleman in a digital conversation.
I'd love your guidance on how to see the comedy in this academic hall of mirrors.
I would say that you have already found the comedy in this academic hall of fame.
I mean, just that email was really funny.
It is genuinely hilarious.
And OK, here is my big thing.
As far as like, what do you say to the students to find the comedy in it?
I think that what you have written here.
I'm getting so excited that I'm like rocking.
OK, I think that what you have written here. a really clear, authentic, genuine feeling.
And so often that is the thing that makes other people laugh is just saying how you actually feel, like what you genuinely are thinking.
So I would encourage you to say to your students exactly what you said.
Like it is possible for you to generate your answers with AI and me to grade them with AI,
And then the two computers have done all the work and neither you nor I have any meaning or purpose in our lives.
Like I think saying that will get them to laugh and acknowledge the absurdity of the situation.
And I think you already are framing it in such a funny way and such a humorous way that giving them the opportunity to address the elephant in the room, that is what I would prescribe for you here.
I would say give this to the people who are involved, say it out loud, hand this to them, read it in class and then see where the conversation goes.
I bet you it'll be both really funny and also allow for those genuine human connections that wouldn't have necessarily happened otherwise.
I like that.
Okay.
All right.
We have time for, I think, about two more.
Okay.
Great.
Let's do a romance one.
Okay.
I am in an affinity group, and I have been going on dates with the leader of the group.
Come to find out, he's been seeing another girl in the group the entire time.
Sad face.
I mean, that's juicy gossip, first of all.
So thank you for sharing.
Thank you for the tea.
Yes.
Thank you for that.
I'm so sorry that that has happened to you.
I will be honest that I don't know what an affinity group is.
So I assume that it's my understanding of what the word affinity means, in which case I hope that you were not in an affinity group for like polyamory, in which case this was like you could have seen this coming.
But if you were just in an unrelated affinity group.
Hiking, birding, meeting, paleontology.
In that case, I think that, like you know, there is a long and storied comedic tradition of laughing at how bad dating and relationships can be.
And I would welcome you to that proud tradition of laughing at like, what happened?
How did this just absolute trash person monster do this to me?
I think that you can find a lot of laughter in potentially laughing with the other girl in the group or the other members of the group.
Or going to a different group and voicing the situation to yourself of like I am going to make sure that that does not happen.
And then the other thing I think again is like the good kind of humor is going to happen with people who are generous and respectful of you.
And obviously the situation shows that someone was not being thoughtful or generous or respectful of you.
And that is not a person who you're going to be able to connect with on a humorous level either.
Unless, of course, this was a polyamory conversation.
Unless, of course, this was a polyamory affinity group, in which case I think you got what you signed up for.
Right.
We have time for one last comedy RX.
What is it going to be?
Okay.
How about this?
This is from Julie H.
My husband of 30 years is finding it difficult to move on to the next phase of his life retirement.
I feel for him, but would love to make him laugh about it.
And then a related one from Taraj.
I have a very strong-willed teenage daughter that refuses to listen to most things I say.
Oh.
Been there.
Okay.
Been there, Taraj.
So I think both of these are relatable, in the sense that it is a common situation to have people we love and care about, who we wish would do things differently.
We wish would be different or act differently.
And I would gently say here that...
Perhaps the best approach to humor is to not force these other people to have a different approach to humor, to laugh more, but maybe is to acknowledge your own relationship with humor around the situation.
I think this is a place where, like laughing at yourself can be a really effective way to connect with the other person and to bring them in.
I think there's something really funny about being like I so want to connect with you and you don't want to connect with me, or like I'm doing things in the most clueless way.
And I think acknowledging that and laughing about how bad you are at it or how helpless you are might create an opportunity for your daughter to actually connect with you and to actually open up.
So, rather than thinking like how do I change her is like how do I laugh at my own failure to do it?
And similarly for the husband.
I think laughing about how you so desperately want to pick the perfect activity or lay out the right book of pastimes or travel guide or the right gear that will make him have his new passion.
I think that is something that if you laugh at yourself and your desire there, it might reveal a little bit to him about how it's coming from this place of care and love.
And it might let him laugh at you, which then you are laughing together and could open it up.
So I would say like it's easier to change ourselves than it is to change other people.
And I think often creating that opportunity and space for laughter can be the space that lets us get what we want secretly anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you, Chris, for taking all of these submissions for ComedyRx.
I think this has just been an awesome exercise and a great way to describe and get at the soul of your book.
So thank you for doing that.
Thank you so much for writing them, people.
And I'm sorry to any ones we didn't get to, but really brilliant and interesting questions.
And we have just a few minutes left and we have been getting a lot of questions from our members.
So I will squeeze in this one, Diana Ace, which is how can humor be used to invite people to envision new ways of leading, both on a personal level and in ways that challenges old shared beliefs about what leadership is?
So humor in leadership.
This is interesting because my wife actually works.
She has a much more professional corporate work than I have ever had.
And she works a lot with leadership and helping people to connect and think about how they frame things.
An idea she taught me about is called selective vulnerability.
So the idea here being that if you are the CEO of a company and you get up and you go in an all-hands meeting, you'd say
We have no idea what's going to happen next.
And I'm terrified.
And I really think it could go badly.
Like that is not actually helpful.
That's being vulnerable.
But people are not going to feel safer afterwards.
Whereas if you are selectively vulnerable and you say like I just want to acknowledge that there is a lot of uncertainty and a lot that is unknown,
And I feel that as well.
But we are going to get through that together.
That's a really different way of being vulnerable and not like you don't have to share everything.
100% if it's not helpful to share 100%.
And I think the same is true with humor, right?
Like it's funny if you're able to laugh at yourself in a way that makes people feel like you're human.
And it's not funny if you are laughing in a way that is making other people feel like they can't trust you or that you're cruel or putting them down.
So I would think about where's that selective vulnerability and how can the humor be a piece of that?
Chris, we are at the end of our hour already.
It's just flown by.
Thank you for this incredibly fun and funny and inspiring conversation.
Thanks for having me.
That was Chris Duffy in conversation with me, Elise Hugh, for the TED Talks Daily Book Club hosted in partnership with our TED membership team.
To watch the conversation on video, visit TED.com.
And finally, if you want to be part of the next Live Book Club event, sign up for a TED membership at gotedcom slash membership.
You'll get live access to virtual podcast recordings and the chance to ask authors like Chris your burning questions.
If you're curious about TED's curation, find out more at TED.com slash curation guidelines.
And that's it for today.
This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar and engineered by Xander Adams.
TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective.
Our team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, Emma Taubner and Tansika Sangmarnivon.
Additional support from Christopher Fazi Bogan, Daniela Balarezo, Valentina Bohannini and Banban Chang.
I'm Elise Hu.
I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.
Thanks for listening.
Singapore is one of the busiest cities in the world, but biologist Philip Johns is fascinated by a different inhabitant on the island.
At rush hour downtown, the otters would swim toward each other and there are literally tens of thousands of people who are on their way to work.
How ideas, emotions, and creatures coexist.
That's next time on the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
Listen and subscribe to the TED Radio Hour wherever you get your podcasts.
