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Michiel, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you, Kwame. It's nice to be here.
Yes, it's great to have you, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, of course. So I'm Michiel, and from my name you can hear, I am super Dutch living in the Netherlands and I work at Google, where I'm the head of trading and commercialization for the Northern Europe region, so Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries.
Basically the countries where it always rains, that's my territory and my experience is before that I've always worked at media agencies negotiating deals there, so that's basically who I am and my experience.
I love it. So when you say head of trading and commercialization, what does that entail?
So it means that I look after basically the commercial interests of our business planning, making sure that we close deals with advertisers and with agencies, bringing the best value to Google, obviously, and I do that for that Northern Europe region.
And that commercialization part is a more strategic way just to see that, you know, how can we bring value to the table whenever we negotiate or whenever the people in my sales organization negotiate that goes beyond that kind of financial transaction?
So what's all that non -financial value?
And it's not always easy to identify and that's why I'm really trying to focus on packaging it, helping them to bring it to clients.
Yeah, that's kind of what my role deals and it's really exciting to do.
Yeah, and we have to say too, because I think a lot of times people would say, all right, the reason why we had him on the podcast is because he works at Google and he has this really fancy title and he's negotiating deals all the time.
But you have a really interesting background, your military background.
Can you tell the listeners about that too?
Yeah, sure. No, I mean, the longer the title, the the fancy.
Right. So I went for the really long one.
It's that's actually true.
It's one my first real job was in the in the Dutch, the Royal Dutch Army when I was 17, didn't have much of education, didn't really know what to do.
And I was also not the best student, to be honest.
And so I needed a little bit of authority in my life, basically.
Now, and I joined the Army because it seemed like a great opportunity, you know, a lot of adventure.
And I mean, I was 17.
So, you know, little did I know.
And I stayed there, did it for over three and a half years.
And yeah, I went on a mission to a peacekeeping mission to Bosnia.
And so that was in 2004 already a long long time.
Yeah, that is great.
All right, everybody, this is great.
So now we know, Michiel, this is great because we're going to touch on a little bit of each of the identities that he shared.
So we're going to talk about the traditional business negotiation with this time at Google and before, but we're also going to talk about a really unique negotiation that he is doing within Google that that touches on his military background, too.
And so the theme for today is why deals fail.
And when we think about why negotiations fail as we go through that and learn more about it, we'll also be able to kind of reverse engineer this and figure out what makes deals succeed.
So this is cool because after what 600 episodes now, I've never had an episode on this, which is insane.
So I'm glad you're here to write the ship here.
So when you think about the reasons why deals fail, what comes to mind for you?
Yeah, there are a few things come to mind.
And I think for me, the biggest learning in my experience is empathy.
So, you know, not leading with empathy.
And as I explained, it's what I mean by that with leading with empathy, you know, trying to understand the other's interests.
And a lot of people are really good at summing up the value they bring or whatever.
You know, they think they can bring to the table, but they forget sometimes also with all the noise and all the stuff that's happening during the workday or whatever is trying to understand the other's interest.
And the only way to achieve it is, you know, to show genuine interest as questions be open.
And so for me, that was a big change whenever I started working in the kind of the corporate world, because whenever I was 17 in the army, leading with empathy is not the thing that they learned, you know, it's the thing that they and I, you know, I can quote one of my sergeants back then he literally said,
you know, going through the kind of boot camp period, he said, we are here to break you down so we can rebuild you the way we like it.
And that was the goal.
But I mean, it's understandable, right?
I mean, it's you train, you know, you're being trained to fight, you're being trained to go to war.
So it's a different thing.
So they need to have, you know, all everybody pointing into the same direction.
Basically, don't ask too many questions if you're being sent on a mission and stuff like that.
And it's you know, it's good for the army to work.
But for me, because after the army, I went back to university studied and then switched to working at a media agency.
And the other thing was then then I learned like, you know, it's a very, very different type of hierarchy within a company than when in when in the army, obviously.
So that was for me, that was the one of the biggest transitions.
And now I'm, you know, I'm more comfortable.
Obviously, I'm a lot more comfortable with it.
And also understanding the value and because especially with negotiation, one of the counter sort of counterparts of empathy is that some people think negotiating is arm wrestling.
It's you know, it's there's a winner.
So there's a loser.
And and I also see it, I thought it in the beginning when I when I just started negotiating, but I also see with some junior salespeople in my organization and it's it's it's always that picture.
And I think if you even kind of Google negotiating, you're you're you'll probably see something, a picture like that.
So I had to switch to more of an empathy thing.
It's you know, it's not being weak.
It's still you're still a strong negotiator.
But you dare to to really understand your counterparts value so you can use it.
This is great. There are so many things to dig into here.
I think one of the things that's really fascinating to look into is the fact that given your training, it was in many ways building you up to be a professional where empathy was not a core skill.
I think that's that's fair to say.
And so for a substantial period of your life, that empathetic aspect that would make you a great negotiator was really not only not put into practice, but probably in many ways almost discouraged to a certain extent.
And I think it's really cool to see that even though that was your basis of where you came from, you were able to make that switch because empathy is a skill.
You can learn to do it.
And then also there's a mindset that goes along with it because you need to want to do it.
You need to see value in doing it and see value in the other person.
So how did you make that switch?
Yeah, I mean, it's not something you can fake, right?
With empathy. So I mean, the switch, there was not just this instant moment.
It's kind of, you know, running, falling down, getting up.
And, you know, but it's I think the most important thing is just maybe thinking that they're close to a good deal and then kind of the longer term relationship thing.
It wasn't happening or I didn't, you know, in hindsight, maybe didn't get the best deal possible or even the negotiation failed because it didn't hit the end line just because I was not aware of what the other's interest was.
And sometimes the interest is because we're always focused on, for example, with price negotiations, you know, the other person wants to get the best price possible, for example.
But there's also this human aspect.
I mean, maybe if that person your counterpart, if he gets the deal signed, there's maybe even more important for him at that point because, you know, it gives him a podium internally or, you know, there are so many different aspects that are important.
And, you know, and who knows what the best result in the end is, right?
So that's and the way I learned, it's learning, learning, learning by doing.
And but I do think that's one of the most important things.
And that's the thing that I see.
Yeah, some negotiations kind of not hitting their end goal just because people don't understand each other.
Yeah, I agree. I agree 100 percent.
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And one thing that you mentioned a number of times is the concept of interests.
So when we think about it from a negotiation type of perspective, like an academic perspective of negotiation, you have interest -based negotiation versus positional negotiation.
So going back to the Harvard program on negotiation methodology here.
With positional -based negotiation, we're focusing on what do you want versus what do I want.
And then it kind of turns into a haggling battle type of thing.
But if we're focused on interest -based negotiations, we're focusing on interests.
What are your interests?
Not just what you're asking for, but understanding why you're asking for it.
So I want to dig deeper into that concept of interests because I think it's something that people often think that they know.
But as soon as they go a little bit deeper, they say, oh, there's a whole bunch, a lot more nuance to it.
So when you think about somebody's interests, what comes to mind for you?
It's a really good topic because I think, as you mentioned, determining your position, it's something you can basically even do without really having that conversation.
And it's still important because you need to know, are you in a stronger position than the other person, short -term, longer -term as well?
But I think that is one of the key elements, why interest is a bit more difficult.
You need to talk, you need to investigate, you need to be out there.
And to be really honest, my role changed as well.
I got promoted, so that also meant that my role was more be more strategic within Google, but also a little bit more internal.
So now I'm, sometimes I'm negotiating myself, but sometimes I'm also letting some of the salespeople do the negotiations themselves.
But it also means that I'm not out there as much.
So I'm missing some kind of market understanding, but also understanding what is the basically also the position of the other party.
I sometimes really need to force myself to go out there to meet people, to talk to them.
And that's also, I mean, we had three reasons.
So kind of reason number two is also not taking relationship building seriously.
It's a people business, it's a human business.
Even in a high tech company like where I work, it's still very, very much the culture is still very, very much focused on the personal aspect.
But I understand your question.
And I think, and it's I think also the difficulties.
There's not a straightforward answer on it.
You need to really investigate and dig deep and that takes time and effort.
Yes. Oh, I love this.
I love this. You're spot on, right?
Because once you start thinking about what is an interest and what does it and what does it mean in this context, it gets really deep, really fast.
And that's what's so fascinating about it.
One of the things that you said that was really interesting was that the interest -based negotiation approach is more difficult, right?
And you're so right.
Another thing you said was sometimes you have to force yourself to meet people and then have the conversation and dig deeper.
Because here's the thing, especially, you know, let me just give a blanket assumption, which from time to time may or may not be true.
Google is a pretty big company.
There are few companies that are bigger than Google.
And so a lot of times you have a pretty strong position with probably a good amount of leverage.
And so you might be in that position where you have the luxury of being able to negotiate poorly and still get a good deal.
But what you're doing is you're saying, I want to get the best deal possible.
Because like you said, you might have gotten the deal in the past, but then you realize that the relationship broke down the road.
Or then you realize, no, I could have gotten a better deal because I did not take the time to empathize.
I did not take the time to learn and dig deeply within the interest and truly try to understand.
But it takes effort and that's what makes it so tough.
I think that's really, really insightful.
Yeah, no, it's definitely.
And I think the interesting thing of Google is it is an enormous company.
And one of the things they really constantly repeat is also the responsibility that it brings.
And it's exactly to your point.
It's the things that you do, even though it's a big company.
So we shouldn't make ourselves bigger than we are.
So we're all just an employee within a big company.
But still everything has a responsibility.
It's still one of the things that impresses me is that even though it is a huge company, it still has the ability to really change direction and still change course.
That's why employees are always asked, be flexible, don't be married to your current position.
It can change because we need to adapt the business.
And that's something that's why it still interests me to work there.
Things constantly change.
But it's a really good point.
It's a different position that we are in in the market.
But when I think about deals and the deals that I do, all the almost all the relationships are longer term.
So that's one of the important things because you never know how the market goes.
You never know where it ends up.
And personally for myself as well, I meet people and then suddenly, so for example, one of the things that I didn't do that well, maybe in the past, is I was short on time, being pushy, trying to get my way, especially when I worked at media agencies.
People who work in that field of area will definitely recognize this.
It's a high pressure business.
You're kind of in the middleman.
You're working for an advertiser, negotiating with big TV broadcasters.
So there's a lot of things at stake, but also a lot of different interests.
If your client who wants things, you have your own boss who wants things, you have the broadcasters who wants things, and everything is under high time pressure.
So to my point, I have been, especially in the beginning, pushing people to get a result.
Winner, basically arm wrestling competition.
Well, maybe I won, but in the end, that person, I bumped into and that person was a client and it was not a good meeting.
I can tell you when the first time we met.
And that's the things that you learn when you become more professional throughout your career.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense.
And again, going back to what we talked about before, it's all about development because there's going to be something that you learn from going to school.
Sometimes you learn from your experience in the army.
Sometimes it's from trainings, those types of things, but it all pales in comparison to the actual on the job experience of having those negotiations, having those wins, having those losses, and then learning from it and improving.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think, again, so let's recap really quickly for the audience, right?
Right now, we're talking about the reasons why deals fail.
First reason, lack of empathy, and then we started to touch on the next one, which is failing to consider or not taking relationship building seriously.
And this is, again, something that's critical, but often overlooked for some of the reasons that you described too, because you were talking about how earlier, before you joined Google, with the media agencies, you were pushier, you weren't taking the time.
So what are some other things that kind of get in the way for other professionals when it comes to not taking the relationship seriously?
I think culture is also an important one.
And especially in the media agency business, it's pretty common.
So culture within a company, but also culturally within different countries, for example.
So where I'm from in the Netherlands, it's not super common to kind of wine and dine always with clients.
I mean, we do it, and in media agencies, we did it more than is generally there.
But when I talk to my colleagues further down south, it's way more common to build that relation and invest in that.
And but I mean, independently of that, I mean, obviously, you need to do stuff that's appropriate within the situation.
And when you have an international role, that's an interesting thing you need to adapt to as well, because the culture in a different country, it's different than where you are.
It's different in the US, where you are based, obviously.
But you also talk to a lot of international people, I think, also on the course.
So I think I find that an interesting aspect of it.
And is it something you also, you know, bump into regularly?
Oh, absolutely. You're spot on.
And I love that you articulated this really well, because culture, people often think about it in terms of nationality.
Where are you from your location, geographic culture.
But culture also exists within companies, too.
And so I know when we do negotiation training, sometimes we have a cultural intelligence training, usually led by Mark Davis, one of our trainers.
And he describes culture really in a really interesting way.
He says culture is just the general way that we do things, whoever we happen to be.
And I thought that was so cool.
So he says, if you play sports, your little sports league, like, that's a culture, right?
Within your family, you have your own little culture, too.
And so then you have a neighborhood culture, a city culture, an organizational culture.
And then even within an organization, different parts of the organizations have their cultures, too.
And I think it's really cool to see that.
To see and start to take a moment and go do a little bit of introspection to see where you end and the culture begins and vice versa.
How much of it is me doing this or them doing this as an individual versus the influence of the culture leading to that behavior?
And so if you can start to think a little bit more critically about that, then it helps you when you're going through the process of building relationships, too.
And that's super interesting.
And I like how you build a kind of a training exercise around that, because it's, you know, it's always these are also kind of the softer skills that we're talking about, right?
Not not not kind of the hardcore sort of academic side.
But it's these things for me, it's always it's always kind of eye -opener or from, yeah, it makes sense, but not really doing it or not structurally doing it.
And that's kind of the trick to, you know, to go to the back to your to your notes or whatever you you know, you get your litter from and then, you know, properly structure that that and prepare that conversation.
I really like that one.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating.
Once you start to to think really strategically about culture, it can be it can be mind blowing and overwhelming at the same time.
But it's a lot of fun because it's it's something that I would rather know.
It's something that you can obsess over, though, because sometimes you think too much about cultures.
And then you make the mistake of thinking that somebody is constrained by their culture.
So, for instance, it's like, okay, Michiel is from the Netherlands.
All Dutch people are like this.
Okay, but no, that's that's we only we only cheese and exactly like, no, no, no, no, you went too far, went too far.
Right. It's just something you keep in mind that helps you to filter the interaction in a different way.
You know, what are some other mistakes that you've seen people make when it comes to not taking the relationship seriously and investing in the right way in the relationship?
Yeah when when it becomes a little bit fake.
So when it's when it's only there when the transaction is is kind of happening that is not long term.
And I mean, obviously, you know, we're running a business.
So and we're not trying to become friends.
So that's also an important distinction, I guess.
But but, you know, also checking in on people whenever, you know, whenever it's not sort of deal season, you know, whenever, you know, after after the negotiation, just checking in quickly, but but only genuine don't force anything.
And I mean, not everybody's super compatible.
I think that's also an important thing to figure out, especially when you whenever you work in a team.
Sometimes it just doesn't match personalities doesn't really match.
Try to understand why it doesn't match and then maybe just you know, put you know, put away your ego and put maybe a colleague forward who has a better connection with that person.
Because in the end, it's not it's not about you.
It's about getting getting the getting the job done or you know, getting the deal done.
So and that was secretly my third reason is getting your ego kind of your ego in in in check.
Um, that's not really having it in check.
It's basically recognizing your ego, like we all have egos.
We all want to you know, we want to be important.
We want to be appreciated.
But it's not always your role to play at that point.
So, you know, you need and business life, you need to understand your mandate.
Can you actually say yes, at that point at the table?
And whenever you work in a big organization, you're never the only one who decides and I mean, you're CEO.
So maybe you are you are the are the are one of the few people who can actually decide or there are still other people who kind of have a say.
Listen, when things go well, other people have a say.
When things are going poorly, Kwame has has lost his mind that he's doing things by himself.
His ego needs to be in check.
So, so, yes. So it could be that way, but I prefer it not to be.
Now, this is this is really great.
And and I I love the way that you articulated this to Michelle, because this is the way that you said it is not the way that most people say it because you said you need to recognize your ego, recognize your ego.
So when you when you phrased it that way, why did why did you choose to phrase it that way?
And because you always hear the kind of the phrase, you know, get get your ego in check.
And then I think the first thing is kind of understanding what it is, like, what are you what are kind of the boundaries?
What are you good at?
What is really the position that you should be?
What is the role? You know, we in the beginning, we talked about fancy titles.
I mean, what does your title really mean?
What is it? You know, whether it does it extend and whether you have to, you know, be fair about, you know, your decision making powers, but also your responsibility.
And I think, you know, one of the great one of the books that I read was from Joko Willing.
I don't know if you you recognize the book.
Yeah, obviously, extreme, extreme ownership.
And that will make me really see, you know, how important it is to, you know, what he emphasizes is, you know, you need to take responsibility also beyond what's in your scope, for example, and especially with big organizations, people tend to because of all the systems that are in place, tend to focus
on what is in my scope, what's not in my scope.
And what I like that he's saying is, you know, he you need to be responsible also for the things out there outside of that.
But it doesn't mean you need to be constantly involved.
Doesn't mean you need to be at the forefront to to run things, just understanding.
And that's kind of what I mean with ego, understanding what you're good at and what you're not good at.
And I'm putting other people forward whenever it's not your, your, your play or not your role to play.
And that's difficult.
Because and sometimes you need you need to have.
So in the army, it's interesting in the army, there's a really close body system.
So, you know, you start and then you get appointed a buddy.
And he's kind of your best friend for life for the next few years.
If you want it or not, you don't want it.
And it even means, you know, you need to be with that person every minute of the day.
But if it goes needs.
Sorry about this, but if he needs to go to the bathroom, you need to be follow him and stay stay there because the two of you, you're together.
You need to take care of each other.
And whenever you have like a body within your organization, you need to have someone who trusts you and basically tells you, you know, this is not your role to play.
Right. It's, you know, get you get your ego, recognize your ego.
So that's why I framed it like that.
Yeah, I love it. I love it.
And I love the book reference as well.
This is this is great because you're absolutely right.
When we think about getting your ego in check and how many people say that it misses the first step.
The person you might be saying that to doesn't even realize their ego is in the way.
And so when you think about emotion management, when you think about emotional intelligence, all of those types of things, it starts with self awareness.
You have to be aware of your current emotional state.
Ego is essentially tantamount to a to an emotion.
It has an impact. It doesn't it doesn't lead to clear thinking.
But if you are fueled by ego, you think your thinking is clear.
I know the times when I am most certain are often the times where I am most incorrect because I'm not thinking with like my logical mind.
I'm thinking with my emotions fueled by that ego.
So awareness is key.
And it takes a lot of humility.
It takes a lot of humility to say, you know what?
Right now, I am not at my best.
I'm not thinking clearly.
And so for me, I just kind of own it in that moment.
And sometimes I tell people, like I need some time to to process this in order to to make sure that I'm making the right decision.
And sometimes you want to be you want to show off and be that quick decisive decision maker.
But often quick thinking is just, you know, bias.
So this is obviously don't like overthink all this stuff, right?
I mean, sometimes you just need to try and and fail or win.
And otherwise you won't get anywhere.
So it's yeah, it's it's interesting.
And I think it's I mean, it goes also to towards the other the other side, like what we talked about in the beginning with, you know, understanding the other person's interest.
I actually I had a negotiation failing because I we all thought the other person could sign the deal.
And we thought the deal was in.
We thought everything was in place.
But then, you know, we kind of understood that there are other people in the background making the decision who we hadn't properly aligned with had not done no time and had no visibility with.
So it landed somewhere at someone's desk who couldn't just see the things that just didn't see the value that we brought there.
So the deal failed because we and that was kind of the other person's ego.
And which is also understandable.
I mean, I also made those mistakes are not nothing there.
But it showed me that and I really need to better understand the position the other person is in.
And so one of the things that I in many negotiations now do is right up front, I asked them, you know, who can sign this deal?
Who is able to sign it?
And a lot of times, then suddenly, you know, new stakeholders pop up, even though you think you did the whole stakeholder mapping, you thought, you know, you had everybody inside.
And then there's always the some person somewhere with a lot of power and authority.
Yeah, who ideally you want to bring into the conversation, but obviously, it's not always appropriate to do.
But it's good to know that.
And it also, what I noticed as well is, it gets your counterpart or, you know, your partner thinking about, oh, who can actually sign this deal, especially when it's kind of first time deals that they're doing.
And, you know, a lot of these deals have high visibility.
And, you know, in the end, everybody, you know, and then, you know, you also sometimes need to use your ego, because whenever celebrations are there, yes, you need to be the one to kind of shine right to show to show what the work you did.
But that was a big learning for me as well.
Ask them in the beginning, who can sign the deal whenever we are, whenever we are there.
This is great. I love it.
And listen, we are we're coming up on time.
This is a longer episode because I'm enjoying myself so much.
I have another podcast coming up in 10.
So I have a hard stop.
So but I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to talk about the cool internal negotiations you're having within Google about the Veterans Network.
So can you set the stage, tell the listeners what you're trying to accomplish and then some of the negotiations you're having to try to make it happen?
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
No, it's for me, it's a super important thing, two worlds basically coming together, my former military background as army veteran.
And now at Google and Google has this great initiative internally, you know, talking about culture, setting up a in veterans network.
And what I did, I didn't have we didn't have a network in Northern Europe of army veterans.
So what it is, it's an internal community where people chat, have a good time, share experiences and what you have also talking about that buddy system doesn't quite kind of an immediate connection whenever you talk to someone who you know, even though it was not even not the same army in the same country,
but you went through the same thing.
So there's like an instant connection.
And that's really cool about the network that I set up.
And yeah, internal negotiations, it's I spend a lot of my time negotiating internally.
And for my specific part, I'm, you know, I'm responsible for, you know, with my team responsible for the Northern Europe region, which is is a different region compared to America's within EMEA, even APEC.
And everybody's kind of battling trying to get the best, the best value for their teams for that region.
So whenever it's kind of deal season with us, my first step is internally try to, you know, get the best options possible.
And then, you know, we go externally.
So and that's where the big company.
Yeah, exactly. No, this is great.
This is great. Yeah.
Because I always want to remind the listeners that the negotiations that we have, especially if you're somebody whose negotiations could be seen as transactional, somebody in your position who's, who's negotiating deals, some somebody like me, who's a lawyer, those type of things.
It's so easy for us to think about the other side as like somebody who was not on our team, but we're still going to use these exact same negotiation techniques internally with our own team.
Like, for instance, we, we train procurement teams a lot and they say the toughest negotiated negotiations are with our business clients.
Like the why, why are they ruining my negotiation?
Right. And so a lot of our trainees are geared towards those types of negotiations as well.
So yeah, it's always important to take the time to realize that you need to take these negotiation skills wherever you happen to be.
If you're a person who happens to interact with people, you're negotiating all the time.
You know, so this is really great, Michelle.
I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Before you go, can you let the listeners know how they can get in touch with you?
Yes, definitely. Look me up at LinkedIn.
Yeah, my name still is very difficult so maybe we can put it in the show notes.
So just try to find Michael Goldman and you'll find me at LinkedIn.
Feel free to connect and reach out because I'm always happy to meet new people.
Love it. Thank you so much, my friend.
Really appreciate you coming on the show.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
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I'll catch you later.
