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Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything.
This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and, with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world.
Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute.
Here at ANI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home.
Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings, both virtually and in person, all around the world.
Our focus is in three main areas.
First, negotiation and conflict resolution.
Second, leadership.
And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team.
And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.
Jamie, thank you for coming back to the Negotiate Anything podcast.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, it's great to have you again.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
So my name is Jamie Lieberman.
I am the owner and founder of a law firm called Hashtag Legal.
And we specialize in working with entrepreneurs, small business owners, particularly in the online space.
And I like to think of my clients as creators.
So they are often creating something new, doing something different.
And so we offer legal services that are a little bit more accessible, don't feel quite as stuffy or scary,
And we work with clients in all areas from trademarks and copyright and contracts and privacy.
But negotiation is one of my happy places because I really love coaching clients on better negotiation tactics and helping them negotiate or just negotiating on their behalf.
Fantastic.
And you teach negotiation too, right?
I used to.
I was an adjunct professor at Seton Hall Law School and I taught lawyering and advocacy, legal writing, negotiation and I loved doing it.
It's just my practice got so...
Busy that unfortunately I had to take a pause.
But I do do workshops and I do go in house to companies or speak about negotiation a lot.
In fact, that's how we met at podcast movement.
I was giving a talk about negotiation.
So it is a very is an area that I love to talk about.
Fantastic.
Yes, we are excited to have you back.
And listeners.
You might remember Jamie from an episode in January of 2020 how to manage transitions in tough negotiations, and our sparring session, which is epic.
She put me in my place.
It was so much fun.
So we'll link to that in the description too.
And so we're going to kind of talk on, speak about a similar topic here.
So dealing with hostile negotiators, those tough negotiators.
First, sell us on this.
Why is this so important to know?
I love that you always have me on to talk about the difficult people.
I just want to laugh about that.
I think it's really important to talk about, because when you come across a difficult negotiator, it's like alarming.
We have, I think, often not just an emotional reaction, but almost like a physical reaction, when someone becomes really hostile and someone becomes very difficult.
It becomes personal.
So learning how to prep yourself for that and how to handle that and how to maintain a level of calm, I think, is one of the most critical but most difficult skills a negotiator can have.
Exactly.
No, I agree.
I agree.
And I think we've all fallen victim to a bully here and there.
And it's just almost overwhelming.
And so I'm excited to get into this, because a number of listeners have expressed interest in learning about this.
And so that's why we brought in the expert.
So the three things we're going to talk about today first, how to build rapport in these tough negotiations.
And second, how to gather and use information strategically for these particular types of negotiations.
And then lastly, how to change the game from hostile to collaborative.
And now when we talk about building rapport Jamie, this is interesting because hey, aren't these jerks.
We don't want to build rapport with them.
They don't want to be nice.
So Can you tell us a bit more about rapport building in these tough negotiations?
Yeah, this is really about being the better person.
We have to step back and remember, particularly in business negotiations, that this is business.
And so the minute we stop taking somebody's bullying as personal, it's a lot easier to try to bridge that gap.
So I try to remind myself, of the motivations behind the person I'm negotiating with.
And I try to think to myself, you know, let me give them the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe they've had a really bad day.
Maybe they had a fight with their child or you know they have an ill relative or something that is causing them added stress.
I certainly know that when I'm home with my family and I'm having a than when I've had a smooth day.
So I try to go in with the idea that there is a reason that a person may be a little bit shorter.
They actually might have a lot of internal pressures at their job on them around this negotiation.
So I think stepping back and instead of snapping to an assumption, a negative assumption which is very easy to do when someone's saying really rude things or being very difficult And instead trying to get to the heart of why they're being so difficult, it really helps take the emotional aspect out and helps you kind of bridge that gap to try to understand where that other person is coming from.
And also reminding yourself you're not doing it because you're trying to make this other person feel better, or even apologize or allow rude behavior.
You're doing it for the end goal, which is to get the deal done in the most painless way possible.
So if you continually remind yourself, I'm not giving this person a pass.
I'm not saying it's okay when my child throws a fit because he's frustrated.
I'm not giving him a pass for throwing a fit, but I'm also trying to realize he's frustrated.
He may not have the words to tell me why he's frustrated.
So I have to maintain... the patience.
And frankly, it gives me a little bit of pride to be the bigger person.
Absolutely.
And I love this.
And for the listeners, not surprisingly, this reminds me of chess.
I'm a chess nerd.
13,000 plus games on chess.com type of nerd.
And one of the things I like to do is play timed games.
And what you recognize is that you will make mistakes that you otherwise wouldn't make under the pressure of time.
And so in these negotiations, we're going to make mistakes under emotional pressure.
And the tip that you gave is really powerful because when we stop taking these things personally, it eliminates a little bit or a substantial portion of the emotional duress that we're feeling.
Because not only is it that what they're doing is aggressive and it makes us a little bit scared or flustered, but then you take it personally.
So is this about me?
Is it something that I did, right?
And it makes it so much worse, which makes us more likely to make more mistakes in the future.
Totally agree.
Yeah.
When you can take that out, because I've certainly had the experiences, if I'm negotiating with a male counterpart, where I've used to think to myself oh, he wouldn't talk to another man that way.
And that was really emotional for me.
And honestly, oftentimes I was right, right?
And there were those instances because my husband is an attorney and I would talk to him about some of these things that would happen.
And I would say, would anyone ever say that to you?
And he's like, not even a chance, like not at all.
So there's biases that many people have to deal with.
And so once I was able to take the emotion out of it which is painful and it isn't to say that I shouldn't feel it or be angry, upset about it, but knowing what my end goal is and be able to take away from that and then bridge that gap it just, it sort of takes the power away from the hostile negotiator.
Because if someone's screaming at you and you're just looking at them and being like please don't yell at me and maintaining a calm and saying to them, like we did in our last sparring session if you're not able to stop interrupting me, we're going to need to move this to another time when you can, and all of a sudden, that person's like oh, and you suddenly take back that power that you feel like you've lost.
Exactly.
And let's let's actually use that last sparring session as an example, because the thing is, when you're dealing with bullies, a lot of times the negotiation tactics that they're using are very simplistic, very simplistic.
I'm going to bully you.
I'm going to put you under pressure.
I'm going to make this uncomfortable.
And then what we do is that we start making decisions to alleviate the emotional pressure, instead of making decisions that are focused on our end goal.
And once you recognize oh, I'm just not going to make a mistake, I'm not going to allow myself to be put in that emotional duress, then it becomes really, really simple.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Particularly because I find that the loudest negotiators, the most hostiles, are the ones that, when you dig deeper and get information like we're going to talk about their positions, are weak.
And I found that the individuals, particularly in the legal space, which is where, when things tend to get more adversarial say, I have a conflict and they become hostile and hold on to a position.
And when you really try to dig and say help, because what I often say is like help me understand your position.
Like.
This is how I view the law, but I'd love to know how you view it, because I want to understand.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly.
Maybe there's a hole you've seen.
And so if somebody, they're just like, I'm not explaining it.
Yeah. someone say, I don't need to explain this to you.
If you don't understand what it is, it's your problem.
I'm like okay, if you don't want to give me more information, then I'm going to go with my instincts, which is that I'm right.
And I'm going to continue to advise my client in that way.
If you want to have a dialogue where we talk about what the law actually says, then I'm happy to do that.
But that's when I know they don't have anything.
So you're able to take that and dig a But even so, I do miss things.
I'm human and I'm open to understanding that maybe there is a little bit like a dent in the armor, I don't realize, or there's a position that the other side is taking for a legitimate purpose.
And once I can understand that and really feel confident that there isn't one, then the negotiation sort of changes because you realize oh, they're bullying me, because they have nothing else.
Exactly.
Exactly.
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And now let's talk about the rapport, like specifically because when I think about rapport I think about the niceties at the beginning of the conversation building trust, building familiarity, those type of things.
Does it operate in the same way?
And if not, what are the differences when we're dealing with somebody who's tough like this?
Yeah.
I mean it's definitely maintaining a calm voice so that they ultimately will dial back any aggressive tone that they may have.
That right there can change an entire conversation once somebody's voice goes from like yelling and very angry to just like okay, let's talk.
You suddenly are like, oh, I can take a breath.
And also I really find effective, help me understand, I want to hear what your client's position is.
I want to hear what your position is.
I'm here to listen.
That can often allow people the space to talk, even if what they say is nonsense.
But still just saying, like how I say it all the time, like help me understand where you guys are coming from.
We really want to make this work, but I'm just struggling to sell it to my client.
I cannot begin to explain to them why we should agree to this, because I we're not seeing it.
So help me understand it.
And if I can, then maybe we can come to a place.
And once you get somebody who's angry actually talking about substantive things, they tend to calm down a little bit if there's substance behind it.
And, like I said, if I can't get them to say that, then I already know and I can advise my client accordingly.
So it really is just a matter of being able to get the person to stop being so defensive and stop being so rude or aggressive or whatever the case may be, and just let you hear their position.
So you can actually have a real conversation.
And sometimes you just have to be sort of the bigger person to do that.
Absolutely.
And for the listeners, you've heard me say this a ton of times, prepare, prepare, prepare.
And so if you go to the website AmericanNegotiationInstitutecom slash guide, you can get access to all of our negotiation guides salary negotiation, business negotiation, conflict resolution.
All of those different guides you can download.
And when you practice and prepare and think ahead of what you're going to ask, what you're going to say, those type of things, then you're going to be less caught off guard when you're attacked in this way in these difficult conversations.
And so, speaking of preparation, let's talk more about the second point, which is gathering and using information strategically.
So what are some things we need to consider there?
I love this question because research is everything in negotiation.
And I know you and I have talked about this before.
I mean I will spend lots of time before I go into a negotiation just getting background information.
I have a current issue going on where there's two companies that are currently fighting over a name, a trademark.
And I didn't understand why the fight was happening.
I didn't understand why one company did what they did.
And then I saw some marketing materials from one of those and it clicked.
I was like, that's why they picked it because I understood now their larger marketing strategy.
It sounds so silly because it has nothing to do with the law.
It has nothing to do with whether or not one should be able to use it or not.
But I understood now the other side's motivation for wanting to hold it so tight.
And so now I'm not arguing or negotiating or even talking about the legal issues.
But now I understand, oh, this is part of a bigger picture now.
So I want to be able to go back and say to them let's see how we can keep your bigger picture while still maintaining my client's rights.
Completely different.
But it was just me doing some Google search and asking around and signing up for their mailing list and all of those things.
It sounds so sort of universal.
But I don't just need to understand the legal aspects of whether or not somebody can use a name or not use a name, but I need to understand what's going to motivate them to walk away from having that fight, when the fight may not be black and white for either side.
Or maybe it is.
Sometimes it's completely black and white in a company.
He is still holding on tight.
Happens all the time where I'm like, you're dead wrong on the law.
They're like, that's okay.
We'll fight about it.
We don't care.
Yeah so, knowing those motivations um, and those didn't even come from conversations.
This is just me looking at how a company's presenting something um, what it seems like their values are, who they are as a company.
Other people's experiences, like i had.
I knew somebody who had some other dealings with another.
I was in another issue and i on the other side i knew one of my clients had had some other dealings, so i just called her and generally said hey, Can you tell me a little bit about this company?
And she's like, oh, here's X, Y, and Z. And she was happy to do the favor.
And I got a whole bunch of information that I wouldn't have ever known ahead of time.
So I knew going in what they were going to be like when I spoke to them.
That's great.
Yeah.
And again, it shows the power of doing your homework, just doing your homework.
And I think a lot of times as professionals we get so caught up in the cult of busyness and wearing busyness as a badge of honor, where we talk to our friends and we're like oh, how busy are you.
Oh, I'm so busy.
I didn't, I barely slept last night.
It's like, oh, you slept?
I didn't even sleep.
Oh, then when you say, well, did you prepare for the negotiation?
I simply don't have time to prepare.
Yeah, you make time.
And I suggest people actually calendar it.
Put it in your calendar, set a date with yourself and take the time to do the research, because simply doing the research puts you in a significantly better position to be successful in the negotiations.
Yeah, because most likely the other side hasn't.
Exactly.
And think about this too.
Again, let's dig deeper into it because we often focus so much on the substance.
So for us as lawyers, we focus on the law.
And then for people in the business world or just day to day, we focus on the facts.
We love facts.
And that's not enough.
We have to take a second and think just psychologically, what are they seeing?
What do they want?
Why do they want it?
And dig deeply beneath the surface.
And then you can find those types of emotional levers that you can pull in order to really find success in the difficult conversation.
Yeah, I think negotiation is all about motivations.
It's what a person or a company is looking.
It's not the results.
It's not the currencies.
It's really just what is going to make me feel like I'm valuing myself, what my goals are, where I'm trying to go.
And so once you have an understanding of what those goals are, you can work creatively to figure out a way to make both sides feel okay.
Sometimes great, sometimes you can't.
And I think that's another thing that I'm sure we're going to touch on later is sometimes difficult.
People are just difficult because they're just not good people.
And so knowing when you have to walk away from that or when you may not be able to strike a negotiation, because sometimes somebody is just so dug in there's nothing else you can do and you have to think of some creative alternatives.
But nine times out of 10, most people are not that bad.
I have to have faith in my fellow human that really our motivations are a little bit different.
And so understanding motivations and values and where...
What is going to make that other person feel like they have a win?
That's where I think negotiations rise and fall.
Absolutely.
And I think that's a perfect time to segue into the third point changing the game from hostility to something that is more collaborative.
So let's say we're in a situation where we're up against that classic bully.
They're pushing really hard.
They're not listening.
They're interrupting in those types of situations.
What can we do to begin to change the game?
Yeah, I think it really comes down to maintaining your calm, maintaining your respect, no matter how angry or frustrated you feel, not rising to that level.
And sometimes it means shutting down the conversation and saying, look, this isn't productive.
I want to have a productive conversation.
Do we need to do it at another time?
That other time works so well.
People are like, no, I don't have another time.
I'm very busy.
I'm like, well, then pull it together and let's get this done.
Yeah.
So I think just really being calm, not rising, not continuing a fight.
I made that mistake really early on.
I had a situation with... a client who had received a cease and desist and it was baseless.
I mean, it was pure bullying tactics and we knew that and they were really messing with my client for no reason.
And I got on the call with the attorney and he knew it.
So he was really awful.
And this was one of my biggest lessons.
I rose to it.
I fought back at him and I snapped back and we ended up in this screaming match at each other.
And then halfway through, I'm like, what?
This is not who I am.
I can't believe I did this.
And I was off my game.
It was the same thing, right?
The time pressure is like, we're human.
We all make mistakes.
It happens to every one of us.
So if it happens to you, don't be mad about it.
Just don't beat yourself up.
Learn about it.
But from that moment, I realized I finally, I was the one to stop it.
And I'm like, I don't want to do this.
This is crazy.
I was like, I just really want to get somewhere for our clients.
So I think we just need to get on the phone at another time.
And I will make the commitment to you that I won't raise my voice.
So if you can make that same commitment to me, I think that we can move along.
And I apologize for the part that I played in that, because I shouldn't have answered you in that way.
And the guy was like so taken aback that I just apologized because I was wrong and I was part of it.
I mean, he started it, but I finished it like, you know, that it helped us a little.
He was still very unpleasant to deal with.
But at the end of the day his client ended up dropping it because I think they just I sent.
I knew at that point I had to just send a letter that said hey, you've made it really difficult to communicate, because I knew he had to share it with his client.
These are some of the things that lawyers do.
And this can also happen if you're dealing with a gatekeeper instead of a decision maker.
And you know the gatekeeper is going to have to pass things along.
If you really truly have a difficult person.
Sometimes you can almost plead your way through them to get to the right person making the decision, but I did it in a really respectful way.
So sometimes just taking a step back and apologizing if you've had a part of it, or asking them to stop nicely, or just saying let's change the topic to something else, or finding a place where we can bridge that calmness.
Eventually, it's true that People will not continue to scream at you if you're not screaming back.
It just really does take the sails out of them.
You just have to sort of take those punches in the beginning, which I think is really more of a mindset that it stinks and you shouldn't have to.
But if you want to continue the negotiation, sometimes you do, particularly if they're difficult.
Exactly.
And it makes me think back to my psychology undergrad degree and the word heuristics.
So with heuristics, these are essentially scripts that we follow day to day, like the mental models that we have in our minds.
And so humans were really great at pattern recognition.
So there's a pattern.
Okay, I'm going to follow this pattern.
We know what we're supposed to do.
If somebody yells at me, pattern is I yell back at them.
Oh, they're yelling at me.
Fantastic.
It's a shouting mask.
Yeah.
We know what to do.
And so what you did?
The thing that caught him the most off guard is the fact that you were following that script and you said oh, changing the game.
We're not doing that anymore.
And so it's almost like a record scratch where they're like whoa, that's not the way it's supposed to go.
And it makes them stop and think and recalibrate.
Yeah, I really think that.
And I also think that it's really important that, as the person who is always sometimes feeling like being the bigger person, it's okay for you to feel frustrated about that.
It's okay.
There are days I come home and I'll just be like, man, that was exhausting.
I don't want to have to keep doing this.
But as negotiators, sometimes that's just part of our jobs.
And hopefully, if the more that I do that, the less the people who I'm dealing with maybe will not do it to somebody else.
I have to have that hope.
But I will say that with some of the more difficult initial conversations, when I have sort of held my ground, stayed really calm, asked people to stop yelling, the subsequent conversations have been a lot easier.
Yeah. and they tend to sort of come in a different way.
Their positions may be the same, and they may be taking really tough positions.
And that's, I think, another thing that we also need to separate.
Just because somebody is taking a tough position you don't like doesn't necessarily make them a difficult negotiator.
That just may be their position.
And so there's a difference between someone who's like, I can't give on that.
And if you're like, I can't give on that either.
That's different than someone who's yelling at you or whatever the case may be.
So sometimes there are positions that just, they're non-starters, they're your deal breakers.
And that's not necessarily a difficult negotiator.
That's someone who can't change that for whatever reason.
And so those are two different things as well that I think you also have to remind yourself.
When someone comes back and says, that's a position that we just cannot take, that's not personal.
That's just business.
That's just the way it And sometimes that's where it is.
I mean, I have clients who license intellectual property, and ownership of the intellectual property is very often the thing we're negotiating the most.
And there are some clients who they must be the sole owners of the intellectual property.
And they're like, we won't do business if we're not.
And so if that's the case, they're not being difficult.
That's just their policy.
And that's just the way they do things.
So we have to find other ways to make up for the fact that that may not be what we want in the deal.
And so now we got to make up for it.
Either we walk away or we find other things to make that more palatable.
That's different.
Absolutely.
And to the two major points that you made, one of the things that you mentioned earlier was the fact that, even though you have to stand your ground early and let people know that this isn't the way that you want to comport yourself, and they should adjust as well,
It might be tough at the beginning, but then people adjust.
And so really, what you're doing is you're training people as to how they should treat you, and they're going to keep on encroaching encroaching, encroaching as long as you make it clear that you're not going to defend your territory, your self-respect, how you should be treated as a person, and so it's going.
There's going to be a bit of a clash there, but you have to stand your ground and advocate for yourself.
And then to the other point.
When we talk about the difference between somebody being difficult in terms of being hostile, being mean uh, Being aggressive, versus saying I just can't move on.
That
I think that's a really important distinction to make.
And it helps us to be more strategic in the way that we approach people and not again take it personally.
And really what we have to do in our preparation is be mindful of our BATNA.
So best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
If I can't get what I need in this conversation with you, what is my alternative?
How can I meet my needs?
And once you're clearer on that and you can have a clear vision of your survivability in this, where you say oh, if I can't get a deal with you, I have other options, then it allows you to not take that as so much of a threat, because you know that you will still survive, because you have other alternatives.
Exactly.
Yep.
I agree.
And also I think that in those instances where and I'll use my intellectual property ownership as an example, you know a lot of times, I'll go back to my client and say well, we'll just ask for more money because if they want to truly own your intellectual property, they should pay for it.
And my clients are sometimes like, oh, they're never going to pay more money.
I was like, just watch.
And nine times out of 10, we'll come back.
And the other side is like, yeah, of course, we totally have the budget for that.
So you'd be surprised at what you can get when you ask for it.
Particularly if there's one area that one party really can't give on, you might be able to get something else somewhere.
Absolutely.
Well, this is fantastic.
I always love having you on the show, Jamie.
This is great.
I know you have some cool things coming up.
First of all, make sure you let people know about the podcast obviously, and then let them know about the courses and how they can get in touch with you for legal work.
Yeah.
So I also host a podcast called the Fearless Business Podcast, and it's geared towards small business owners and entrepreneurs.
And we talk about topics in your business that you are often afraid of or feel intimidating, but shouldn't be.
So sometimes we talk about negotiation, but we talk about lots of other things.
Sometimes they are legal topics.
We talk about sales and marketing.
We talk about just all those topics that people accounting.
Nobody wants to talk about that, but you gotta.
Things like that.
So that's the fearless business podcast.
My law firm again is hashtag legal and you can find us at hashtag spelled out dash legal.com and we have recently launched launched courses and our course offerings are called the unbusiness school because we try to make our I love that name.
And in the Unbusiness School, we have mini courses for legal foundations.
So if you are like, what is a trademark or what is copyright?
Why do I even care about it?
Or what are some really important clauses and contracts?
I need to at least know what they are and what they mean.
That's what we've created them for so that you stop being afraid and avoiding legal and know when you need to ask for help or when you can do it yourself.
That's fantastic.
Jamie, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you.
It's always so much fun.
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