Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Round Table.
You're listening to Round Table with myself, Hyang.
I'm joined by Goyen and Steve Hatherly in the studio.
Coming up, birds aren't just for the wild.
They're spreading their wings in app design too.
Yup, just take a look at your smartphone interface and you'll see them everywhere.
Owls, penguins, magpies, bird -themed icons are making our devices look like a digital zoo.
But why? Oh, why? We are going to talk about app design.
And coming up after that is our happy place.
We share with you what's brought us joy so far in the day.
You can always find us on Apple Podcasts at Round Table China or on any podcast platform of your choice.
And if you like to participate in the show, have your voice heard by the world, feel free to send us a voice memo to Round Table Podcast at qq .com.
Now, let's move on to the next topic of discussion today.
The interface on your smartphone is becoming a digital zoo with particularly bird -themed app icons everywhere, from wise owls to playful penguins.
These icons aren't just cute, they may carry deep cultural and historic meaning as well.
So what's up with all the birdy icons?
Have you noticed this?
Well, in recent years, a notable trend has emerged in mobile application design, the prevalence of bird -themed icons.
Popular apps such as Xuèxiòng which is an online platform for Chinese students to check their educational background, and Yu Dao Translate, which is a popular translation app for Chinese young people, young students, and some other social media apps.
They all prominently feature birds as their primary visual elements.
This has led to humorous observations that smartphones are beginning to resemble bird cages.
I just opened up my phone as you were starting the story just to see if I could find any bird logo apps.
I found two, and one is for a language translation application as a matter of fact.
And looking at the bird itself, you know I never noticed this before.
I don't even know what kind of bird it is as a matter of fact.
I've never paid attention to this logo before when opening up the app.
But yeah, it's some sort of bird.
And there's got to be something behind this, isn't it?
Because we can find examples all over the world.
The former version of it.
Yes, when Twitter existed, it was a little bird.
That's the first one that comes to mind for me.
Yeah, and there are just so many.
There are restaurant recommendations and reviews.
There's one app that has an owl on it, I believe.
And then also for booking sort of like Airbnb type of services, one of those companies definitely has a birdie app icon and also a whole bunch of these tech companies who have apps obviously that focus on.
And logistic companies.
Oh, logistic companies as well.
And all kinds of like singing or speaking that involves verbal communication, bring in the bird, I suppose.
But can I also just mention please, it's not just birds as well, but maybe there's just a lot of birds.
On top of that, I just searched, I just had a look at my smartphone and I realized that there's the famous dolphin in China.
That's Sea Trip. Ah, Sea Trip.
The popular travel platform.
Yes, indeed. And also there's the movie ticketing platform, Mo Yan.
So I saw, oh, cute, cute.
The face of a cat. Yeah, so the direct translation would be a cat eye that's for that app.
So yeah, a lot of animals are...
There's dogs too. Oh, dogs?
I've not noticed that before.
Well, the food delivery, I think the food delivery app.
I'm trying to be careful not to say of company names or anything, but there's a food delivery app.
I think that's a dog.
It's kind of nondescript, I suppose.
Isn't that a hippo?
Oh, is that a kangaroo?
It's a hippo. Oh, it's got a kangaroo.
Oh, there's a hippo.
You have the hippo.
You've got the hippo one.
That's for online shopping.
Is that a kangaroo, the one I'm talking about?
Maybe. I haven't checked the details.
Well, anyway, it still falls into the animal kingdom.
Yeah, indeed. Yeah, so it's just animals everywhere, it seems like, right?
Yeah. For birds themselves, there's kind of a cultural reference for birds, which I think is kind of interesting, and it's all around the world, and it seems to transcend culture too.
I mean, even in literature, I remember when I was a young student learning that in literature and in film, do you have this in China too, where if you're watching a movie and you see a crow, a black crow?
Black crow? That's really bad fortune.
Yeah, so in literature and film, it's foreshadowing that something bad is going to happen in the near future, Edgar Allan Poe, right?
The Raven. There's another example.
So there's lots of examples overseas.
What are the cultural significant examples from here in China, I wonder, for birds?
Well, in China, the reference in China, both the Book of Songs, very classic Chinese book, and the records of the grand historian reference birds as symbols of divinity and good fortune.
During the Ming dynasty, which is hundreds of years ago, and Qing dynasty's birds' motives were prevalent in official attire signifying their importance in Chinese culture.
For instance, the magpie, which denotes the smartness and it's used for core selection and grid checking, is named after the magpie, which symbolizes good fortune in Chinese culture.
The design of its bird -shaped icon reflects the designers' wishes for student success and the success of maybe some official's promotion in traditional Chinese culture.
And magpie in Chinese is called xì qì.
So in the name, there is this blissful and celebratory tone, so definitely an auspicious symbol.
And you mentioned xì qì and xì qì.
These are the Chinese names of those ancient, classic Chinese literature.
So yes, there's that long history that goes back hundreds of years ago.
The owl as well is commonly used.
Duolingo, you're familiar with Duolingo, the language learning app?
Oh, I noticed that it's an owl.
It's an owl, yeah, because the owl represents, I don't know, it's associated with knowledge and wisdom.
We even have a phrase, an expression in English, as wise as an owl.
And I was wondering, where does that come from?
Because, you know, I've lived my whole life as an English speaker.
I've heard that expression 100 ,000 times.
And I never thought, why is there any association with wisdom and the owl in the West?
So I found out the ancient Greeks believed that owls had an inner light that allowed them to see at night and navigate their way in the dark.
Their large eyes also and their very almost stoic appearance.
They look like somebody's grandfather all the time, right?
Very smart and very stern looking face.
That led the ancient Greeks to believe that owls had a certain amount of wisdom.
And in fact, Athena, the goddess of wisdom in Greek mythology, was often depicted with an owl at her side.
And that's definitely one knowledge point that I don't think most Chinese people would be familiar with.
I don't think many Western people know about that either.
We don't really, okay, correct me if I'm wrong, dear listener, and feel free to write in Roundtable Podcast at qq .com.
Before my encounter with Western culture, never thought about owls at all.
They're just a regular bird to my knowledge.
And it's really interesting, you know, in different cultures, maybe the symbolism is a little bit different.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, for instance, speaking of different cultures, the association of different kind of animals, birds like in India, the birds like the peacock are revered in Hindu culture, symbolizing grace and beauty.
And in Japan, the Shinto religion honors birds like the crane, symbolizing longevity and good fortune.
I think this is quite similar to the Chinese culture.
In China, the crane also symbolizes longevity and good fortune and carries an auspicious meaning.
Yeah, definitely the longevity.
So if you see, for example, in a lot of the embroidery of beautiful ancient clothing displayed in the Forbidden City, for example, and then when you see the crane print, usually that means maybe this is for the Empress Dowager.
Somebody, you know, a bit older and senior in position.
Well, that's the cultural connection.
But what about just the principle of the designing of apps in the first place?
His name is Charles Sanders Pierce, and he is a theorist.
And he talks about the design of app icons and how they follow certain principles based on semiotics.
Semiotics is the study of signs and symbols.
And he gives some different examples.
So, for example, your app might be an image icon.
Now that would directly resemble their function.
For example, if your app is a calendar app, well, then the symbol or the application logo will be a calendar itself.
Okay, that makes sense, right?
Here's another example.
Index icons, they indicate their meaning through association.
So, for example, if you have a weather app, then the icon would be a cloud or a sun or something like that.
And then there's a third one, which is symbolic icons.
And those are abstract representations that require knowledge of the app to interpret.
For example, Duolingo using the owl, representing wisdom, representing education.
So you have to make the connection there.
So, when looking at app design itself, according to that theorist Charles Sanders Pierce, those are the ideas that companies are looking for when they're choosing their design.
Yes, and this is one of the really important designs for a company, because essentially you're talking about the logo that represents your company on the smartphone interface of your potential user.
So, what makes a really good app icon?
Well, I think it's unique visual appeal.
In a crowded app marketplace, a well -designed app icon must be aesthetically appealing and unique, which can be achieved through original imagery, color schemes, or creative use of symbols.
These designs help an app to be more memorable and distinguishable from competitors, create immediate interest, and encourage users to explore the app further.
And speaking of the unique visual appeal, I must praise the Roundtable app.
I think it gives me a sense of delightfulness.
And I think when I watch it, it's background is yellow.
Orange, orange. Yellow and orange.
And it brings us our mood more positive.
Well, you're welcome.
It gives me a sense of...
I've only been here for three months, but I'll take credit for that.
Sure, why not? No, it is a great logo, isn't it?
Well, and also, yeah, that's our sort of like our profile pic.
And yes, when we're coming up, if I may stay on this subject a little longer, with our sort of logo or our print, we wanted something that is round.
Because it's Roundtable.
Really pull. Really the ones.
And this I... I like your honest opinion, actually.
We were a little hesitant with the three round heads.
Well, we have three people on the show.
So it'd be nice to have like, you know, some kind of representative of that.
But at the time, because we decided that yes, we want a warm color for our show, because our show is warm and open and friendly and lively.
So we decided on orange and some yellow tones on top of that and a little bit of white.
But the round heads, they looked a little, in my opinion, elementary school -like.
So we're a little unsure, you know, because we're having mature discussions.
Would that make us look a little bit too kind of like kindergarten -y?
Oh, well, you could have put three owls there.
Well, we didn't know that back then.
I think what you just described is an index icon, indicating the meaning through association.
It's a round logo, round table, with three heads, but three nondescript heads, meaning there could be a rotating panel of people on the show.
You never know who's going to be there type thing.
That works. And it looks cute.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing.
Like, for a lot of companies, I think cuteness is maybe what they're trying to go after, this appealing feeling.
Cuteness or simplicity.
They say simplicity is crucial for recognition, too.
Because if you clutter or make your app overly complex in its design, it can be really confusing for the people who are using it.
And this one, I thought, was an important point as well, the scalability of the icon, meaning its clarity and impact across different sizes.
For example, if you have the app on your phone as opposed to an app on the computer or something like that where it's going to appear in different sizes and different scales, the app needs to be scalable.
The app icon needs to be scalable so that it still looks good regardless of where you're looking at the app.
That's something I didn't even think about that, but that totally makes sense, too.
That's something really novel for me.
And apart from this scalability, it also carries relevance.
An effective icon should reflect the app's core function or purpose.
For example, a music app might use a musical note or a bird to signify singing.
I do. Exactly. This relevance helps users quickly understand what the app does, enhancing their likelihood of engagement.
And also, consistency.
The icon should align with the app's overall branding and visual identity.
Consistency in design helps build brand recognition and trust.
If the app's icon is cohesive with its interface and promotional materials, it creates a unified user experience.
And that will help the developer or a particular program or company to enhance their recognition in the market.
And actually, when you look at these icons, they're so small with the space of a fingernail, and the companies are trying to pack so much information and evoke so much emotional knowledge just through that little space.
And no wonder, there are so many apps that just look identical, in my opinion.
Just a quick browse on your smartphone, you see a ton of them in red, a ton of them in blue, a ton of them in other colors, and just with small differences.
Sometimes they're hard to find.
So the next time you swipe through your phone, if you see an app that really stands out to you and it's easy to find, then you can think, oh, they did a really great job with that design.
Because it's something that we don't think about, right?
And we've been talking about the successes, how to make an app design or logo successful, and we don't notice them until they're very bad.
And then we notice them immediately, or if they're very bad, or if they're offensive.
In 2021, Amazon had to change their main shopping app logo.
Customers complained a lot.
So you know the Amazon smiley arrow?
It's like a half, it's an arrow but it's like bending down in the middle.
Like a smile. Yeah, so it looks like a smile.
So back in 2021, their main shopping app logo had that kind of smiling arrow, but then above it, they had a blue kind of banner that was quite narrow.
And customers said, this is what they complained about, that blue short banner, together with the smile, looks like Adolf Hitler.
So Amazon changed it immediately.
That was their main shopping app logo.
And if you look at it on the internet, I mean, it might not be an immediate connection for you, but if you look at it with that knowledge, then you think, oh yeah, that's actually not very good.
And people picked up on it right away.
So that's my point.
If it's good, you might not even notice it ever.
I never noticed that in my life.
But if it's bad, or potentially offensive, you're going to notice it immediately and you could be offending a large part of the world.
So there's definitely cultural sensitivity.
100%. That needs to come in mind.
And that's why a lot of people pick, or a lot of companies pick animals, especially the cutesy ones.
Yeah, that's the safe card.
There you go. Coming up next, Roundtable's Happy Place.
What is it? Steve, what is your Happy Place so far?
Oh gosh, you know, I haven't been watching a lot of movies recently for just one reason or another.
And also we've been complaining about, it just feels like there aren't as many amazing movies coming out as there used to be.
I don't know if you feel like that or not.
I'm a huge movie lover.
My wife is as well.
We really enjoy sitting down to watch a great movie together.
But it had been a long time until last night.
And this was a movie that I was excited about seeing.
Not because I thought it would be amazing, but because I enjoy the characters.
I'm not sure if you've heard of the movie or not.
It's a Marvel Cinematic Film called Deadpool and Wolverine.
It's the combination of the two characters.
What is that? Deadpool is a Marvel character who has its own series of films.
And then Wolverine has its own series of films.
And they combined the two to make a Deadpool and Wolverine film.
It came out this year.
It's a 2024 movie. And it's starring Ryan Reynolds.
If you know who that is, he's Deadpool.
And then Hugh Jackman is Wolverine.
I thought, Marvel, oh, you're really stretching here.
They've put out over 30 Marvel Cinematic Universe films.
And I thought this is kind of a sign of desperation a little bit.
Like, what else can we possibly do?
And the reason I was excited to watch the movie is because I thought, how much am I not going to like this?
I liked it. Oh, great.
Well, I did. And it's not for everyone.
Let me tell you this.
Don't sit down with your children and watch a Deadpool film.
You will be immediately offended, more so perhaps than an offensive app icon.
But if you don't mind some bad language and a lot of violence, then you might find it enjoyable.
And particularly if you're a fan of those film series, it's kind of fun to watch those two characters go together.
You know, Ryan Reynolds, he's a Canadian, so.
Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, a little hometown pride there, I suppose.
But I really enjoyed the film.
And like I said, we hadn't watched a movie in a long time that we kind of thought was fun.
So, that's my happy place today.
Yeah. Well, I had a similar reaction to really Marvel.
And if you listen to the show, you know I'm not a big fan.
Yeah. But, because I think it's sort of sucking up too much oxygen out of the filmmaking business.
And then you get too many boring, did I just say that, superhero movies.
But this one, yeah.
I mean, at least it brought in Deadpool, which has been struggling to sort of make it up a level in the Marvel or in the superhero universe.
And then also bringing Wolverine, who have been quote unquote dead.
Yeah. Yeah, they're really trying hard.
But it seems like the box office performance is pretty good.
Yeah, pretty good. And I like in the Deadpool films and in this film too, right in the beginning of the movie, he's telling his story about how he wanted to be an Avenger.
Ah, yes. But they rejected him.
So, he had to go do his own thing.
Yeah. And then, you know, even before that in the movie, he's like, yeah, you know, well, anytime I can make money off of a Marvel, it's cash grab to make this movie, so why not?
But that's the character talking, so there's elements of that comedy in there too.
I think Marvel movies are always top the box office in Chinese mainland.
Not in the recent years, for sure.
No, no. For many years, it has dominated China's, you know, movie market.
Well, I suppose it was popular everywhere because people wanted some of that oh, superhero or a group of them, you know, saving the world kind of thing.
But you sort of get tired of that after a few years.
But anyway, that's a really, you know, I'm glad that brought you joy.
It did, yeah. Thank you.
Yeah, and Guoyan, what's your happy place?
My happy place is a real place.
I visited a city named Luoyang in central China's Henan Province.
And one thing about this place is that the traditional Chinese costume, which in Chinese is Hanfu, is quite popular in that city.
And because that city was, is an ancient capital in China.
It has a history of over a thousand years.
And in that city, everybody, especially young girls, young, whether boys and girls, they so loved to wear traditional Chinese costume, which gave, which make them that it's like a time travel back to a thousand, maybe in town or Han dynasties.
Oh, that's cool. And yeah, but if I dressed that costume in Beijing, I would feel so embarrassed when I was in that city.
I also picked up a costume and did some makeup to make myself like, I came from town dynasty and I just walk on the street.
Is that a tourist thing to do in the city or do people who live there and go to work every day?
Do they dress like that?
Yeah, they go to work.
Some young girls go to work dressed like.
That's cool. I like that.
Maybe not the full set, the half set.
Yeah, they sometimes they ride scooter and sometimes when you wait at the pedestrian waiting for the traffic light, you will see a lot of young girls ride scooters and also in like traditional Chinese costumes.
And it's feel so natural.
If I did, if I do that in Beijing, I will feel, oh, is that girl, oh, that's so embarrassed.
But the thing is you see people dressed like that in the subway in Beijing as well.
Really? Maybe they don't necessarily do that to work.
But if they visit a public park, for example, and yeah, sometimes people are all domed in traditional Chinese.
I know what you mean though, when we visited Xi 'an, they do the same thing, although I think it's more of a tourist thing to do because there's a lot of shops in the downtown area where people dress up.
But yeah, there are tons of people dressed in traditional clothing there.
Yeah. Like now it's become socially acceptable to dress up like that in public, but not always at work though.
And people sort of have maybe specific dress codes for that, maybe.
Yeah. And my happy place this week is something actually started when my friend who lives in the U .S.
called me up this morning and said, she's back.
She's back after a three year hiatus.
And now every day when I have dinner, I have something lovely to watch that makes me think of China and the richness of Chinese culture and how beautiful the country landscape can be.
And that is the return of one of the most popular social media influencers in China called Li Ziqi, and it's just fantastic that in the last three years she's picked up a lot of traditional, intangible cultural heritage tactics as such and practices as such.
And what a great endeavor.
And that's it for today's Roundtable.
We'll see you next time.
