I'm bored.
Mom, I'm so bored.
Dad, there's nothing to do.
It's so boring.
Okay.
You are not alone if this is so triggering, but also relatively common.
And yes, our kids are bored more often than we were as kids, because their lives are actually so much more stimulating.
So the situation that leads them to feel bored is just so much more common because there's so much stuff, so much dopamine, so many activities all around them.
I am so excited to completely reframe the discussion around boredom because by the end of today, you're going to start seeing your kids' boredom complaints as a good thing.
As a sign that you're doing this parenting thing exactly right.
I have brought in Lizzie Asa for this conversation.
She is an expert on independent play and boredom, and she breaks down these topics in a way that makes so much sense but also feels totally new and relieving.
This is a conversation you're going to use right away in your home.
I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
We'll be back right after this.
Let's just start with maybe what boredom's about.
Like what is really happening in this moment?
And when you hear a parent talk about their kid who's bored, like where does your mind start to go?
You know, I have to laugh because my own kids will still say to me like, mom, I'm bored.
And every time I'm like, guys, hi.
Do you know me?
But you know, I think the best the thing about it is that, as a parent, it makes us feel like am I doing enough?
Yeah.
And my real goal is to really reframe that for parents of.
This is a good thing, this is a good thing.
And when you lean into it, it's not just about independent play.
It's about relationship, understanding who your kid is.
What lights them up?
What are they grappling with?
And when we reserve that space for boredom and we as the adult feel anchored and okay with boredom, it lets our kids feel safe in boredom.
When kids complain about being bored, most parents have an immediate thought I'm doing something wrong.
I'm not doing enough.
Or are you kind of saying like, oh, this is my problem to solve.
Boredom is a problem to solve versus boredom.
Give me the versus.
You know, I think in today's culture we see it as our job to kind of optimize childhood, to make sure we are giving our kids the opportunities that maybe we didn't have.
Right.
We are setting them up for, you know, this enrichment, this.
You know, this team sport or whatever, to give them that leg up.
Right.
And for me, I really think about it the opposite way.
Right.
I really think about leaving space for boredom, as that's the thing that is giving my child the opportunity and the leg up.
So is what you're saying, OK, my kid says I'm bored.
Maybe parents are thinking it's true when they say that it feels like an alarm bell.
Yeah.
And the only reason something's an alarm bell is if it's a problem to solve.
But you're almost saying, Lizzie, there's something positive when your kid says I'm bored.
Maybe you're doing something very right as a parent.
Like, do I pat myself on the back a little?
OK, so walk me through that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do.
Because to me, it means, OK, like.
I see it as my job and for the parents that I work with to schedule in that downtime for play and rest in the same way.
And I'm not saying don't sign your kid up for soccer.
Don't sign your kid up for the enrichment that they love.
But I am saying Reserve that time to be bored, to play, to rest, with the same ferocity that you do for the lessons.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so when I do, when your kid does come to you with I'm bored to me, that says you Becky, great job.
Yeah.
You reserved the time.
And I think that matters so much because anyone listening even that simple reframe makes a big difference.
We're always unconsciously looking for signs that we're doing a good job as a parent.
Of course.
And if you actually think of on board as one of those signs, it's it's harder to be triggered by it.
Even if you don't know what to do next, you stop it from being a problem to solve.
Right.
Yes.
And it is, you know, it is triggering.
It is still triggering for me.
And I research and study and wrote a book about the benefits of boredom.
And still I can get that feeling of should I have signed them up for that?
Yes.
All their friends are doing this and I'm not, you know, so I get it.
I get it.
Or do I need to now be the originator of ideas for my kid?
And, by the way, it's probably one of the reasons we go to bed so exhausted and resentful of our parenting, because we have almost outsourced our kids creative abilities to being our responsibility.
Because OK, I guess I'll.
I have to, I have to give them this activity or I need to come up with the idea constantly on a treadmill.
Yep.
But I think when we think back to, we're about the same age, and when we go back and think about our own childhoods, there was time to just kind of wander, to play.
Our parents didn't see it as their job to entertain us.
They were interested in us, sure.
But it wasn't all encompassing to them, right?
And so we had time and the repetition to learn how to play, to get really good at being in charge of our own long Saturday afternoons.
No one was saying to us, we have this club sport and it's three hours away and we have this here.
That wasn't happening, right?
And 13 birthday parties on Saturday.
I don't know how you can eat pizza and cake that many times, but.
But you can, you know, and so we had time to practice playing and get really good at it.
Yes.
And now I want parents to give kids back that childhood, give them back that time.
And I guess the other thing versus our childhoods is what I often think is the unsaid part of the discussion around boredom and screens and independent play is our tolerance for For our kids whining.
It has to be less than our parents, because we're on our phones all the time.
We're not bored that much.
I'm always like, well, look, I can do ding, ding, ding and find such pleasure.
Right.
So I'm less tolerant of my kids discomfort.
Of course.
Right.
And there's just so many more options available to us as parents.
Right.
Yes.
I mean, I imagine saying to my mom as a kid, I'm bored and I don't think that even like registered to her.
What am I going to do about that?
Right.
That's a you problem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And a little bit you're reclaiming that there's something in that that's helpful.
It is a little bit of our kids problem.
At least it's not it's not our problem.
It's not our problem to solve.
There are ways that we can support it.
And I think that's also really helpful as a parent.
Right.
Yes.
Because, you know, for me, when my kids come in and say, like, I'm bored and, you know, and.
I feel very confident saying go be bored somewhere else, because I know that in my home I have set up what I like to call play pockets.
I know that they have.
There are toys and materials.
There are spaces for them to read and be comfortable.
They can go outside.
I'm very lucky.
You know, there are ways for them to entertain themselves.
They might not like it.
It might be uncomfortable getting from point A to point B. But I know I've done my job.
You know, have you eaten?
Yes.
OK.
Have we connected today?
OK.
Yes.
Are there options available to you for you to make into what you need?
Yes.
Well, once those things are met in my mind, I'm like OK, now this really is like a you problem to figure out.
Okay, I want to go through some of those things.
I actually want to start with the last thing.
Tell me about the difference between.
As a parent I'm hearing you say this have I done my job of kind of making sure there's things set up that you could use?
The difference between that and, I don't know, doing the activity or being in charge of delivering the fun.
Can you differentiate those?
Absolutely.
Because when I say, you know, are there things for them to do?
I do not mean... a craft or a project or a new toy that I am now gonna sit with you and do, right?
I mean actually the opposite of that, right?
Because I think what happens for a lot of parents is they're like, okay, play, independent play.
I need to set up this beautiful sensory bin or we are gonna make this project that I saw on Instagram and everyone in the family looked so happy doing it together.
And then we go to do it in reality and what happens?
Everyone's grumpy.
You have now spent time, money, energy.
You got excited and your kid engages for two minutes.
Yeah.
And then they're bored again and you're burnt out.
Yes.
And have less money because you just spent all this money.
And then you're like, see, my kid can't play.
That's exactly right.
Right?
Yeah.
When?
Really for me, when I think about you know, setting up the environment for play.
It means are there materials that reflect their life, things that are interesting to them?
Right.
So, you know, if you have a child who, say, is really into, I don't know, trucks.
Mm hmm.
Are there trucks around?
You know, are there a few truck books?
Are there you know, did we connect today?
Maybe, you know, maybe I went to the supermarket with them.
But instead of just like running through my to do list in my head on the way there, I pointed out a couple of trucks in the car on the way there.
Right.
Wow, buddy.
Like, look at that one.
What do you think about that one?
What do you notice about that one?
Right.
So we're putting them as the expert in their interest.
OK, so then later, when they're bored, they have materials.
You know, they have some toy trucks or some toy books, or maybe some crayons and paper.
Maybe they like to draw trucks, you know, whatever it is.
Maybe they live in New York City and they can look out the window and draw the trucks.
They say they get to decide that.
Right.
Yeah.
Because if you're sitting there saying today we're going to play about trucks and we're going to make this project that I saw online and first we're going to glue this,
Nope.
Do it this way.
That's that's not them independent playing.
Right.
That's that's you just teaching them maybe a skill, but that's not how we're supporting boardroom.
And my guess is it doesn't give the parent the thing that they need over time, which is some amount of time when your kid can do something independently, but they're not on a screen.
And this is not about screens.
And I think you and I are similar.
Do the screen thing.
That's fine.
But I think every parent I know says it feels like either I have to give my kid an activity or they're on a screen.
What I love what you talk about is independent play is a way to get out of that binary.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
So say more about that.
And, you know, I think so much about how your work focuses so much on relationship building, right?
Like at the basis of everything, you're coming back to their relationship.
And something I really want parents to understand about play and independent play is that when you support your child in play and you value their play and you take time to watch them and observe them in their play, you're going to learn so much about like who is my child?
What's interesting to them?
What are they grappling with?
Yeah.
I have ideas.
Yeah.
I have things to teach other people.
And that builds confidence and it gives them the confidence they need as a little one you know to start playing.
But then as they're older, you know, I was recently having a conversation with someone who was saying you know, college kids are really grappling with you know, making small decisions.
They're calling their parents for every reason, like, you know, all of these things.
And that makes me think back to I wonder if those kids had time to play, because I think that kind of resilience is really built on the living room floor at four.
I know you and I see similarly about this, but I want to.
I want to pull that out a little bit more, because sometimes that leap isn't so obvious to other people.
OK, so it's a kid playing with trucks or maybe a kid who likes to draw free form, whatever it is.
And then we're talking about the college kid.
Who can decide which class to register when they can only pick one or, you know, wants to know?
Do I talk to my teacher about this or do I wait?
Whatever the decisions are.
Zoom out from what's happening on the floor that you share often with parents about where play is play, but also it's so much more.
So can you just explain that a little more?
Yeah, I would love to.
So you know our kids especially.
I mean I think about you know the parents whose kids are two three four five, like the ones who are really still learning those independent play skills right.
They don't have a lot of autonomy in their life, right?
But play is a place where kids can create their own world, right?
It is one of the only places that they get to make the decisions.
They get to decide what happens and when in the game, right?
Yep.
And oftentimes as parents, we feel it's our job to play with them.
And instead of playing with them, we become the entertainer, right?
Suddenly we're calling the shots.
We're making the duck do this.
And instead, I really wanna help parents step back from that.
And I'm not saying don't play with your kid.
I think that's like a huge misnomer, right?
You can play with your kid, but think of your role as less entertainer and more mirror right, more person who says like this is your world.
You get to make the call.
I'm just here reflecting that back to you, right?
And that's how our kids build those decision-making skills.
They become people who are like, I have ideas that matter.
I can make a mistake.
And the world doesn't explode.
It's OK.
Right.
And the more they can do that over time, over years, they learn that resilience.
It's OK to make a mistake.
Yeah.
So I'm going to get at one more level concrete and tell me this is, you know, an example that resonates?
So I'm building with blocks, magnet tiles, whatever it is as a kid.
And I think often as a parent, we watch and we think, oh, steady that foundation.
It's going to fall.
And now listen, anyone who says that, let me just be clear, you've not traumatized your kid.
Your kid's going to be fine.
OK, like it is not too late and it's not too late because it's no big deal.
We've all said those things.
OK, so we're talking about patterns.
Yes.
Right.
And we're actually talking about giving parents freedom to do so much less.
OK, this is a good thing for parents and it's never too late to experiment with a little shift.
But I think about the difference between that versus either saying nothing, I don't know.
The tower falls.
My kid even gets upset and I say like ugh, tower fell.
Or I usually do this thing around.
My kids call it like the wondering face and I'm like I wonder why that fell.
Hmm.
Almost I felt like it created a like wonder container, but I didn't do the wonder filling of the container.
I don't know, does that make sense?
Yes, and you didn't do the work.
You didn't do the work.
You just put out the scaffolding for the work, right?
And so you know oftentimes like we can get in there and be like well, if you just do it this way or build it up here Again, we're going back to being that entertainer.
We're reflecting it back on me.
But over time, when you have a kid right who can build the tower, it falls.
Then they get to decide am I going to build it again?
Yeah.
Am I going to melt down?
Because that's fine too.
That's allowed.
It's disappointing.
Am I going to change it?
And maybe I would say to them later when they go into build hey, I remember yesterday when you were working and that fell.
That was so tricky.
You know and again I'm not going to say it's because you know you did this and this and this wrong.
Try it this way.
I'm not going to do that.
I'm just going to let them think back to that.
Yeah.
Right.
They got through it.
It wasn't, you know, and maybe today they're going to build it a different way.
Yeah.
Maybe they're not ready to build it a different way, because play gives our kids an opportunity to keep repeating something until they've mastered it.
They can keep coming at it in a way that makes sense to them.
I want to actually do something where we think about kids at different ages.
OK, so this is a great example.
The difference between saying to a kid when they're, I don't know, two, three, four or five.
Here's how you build a tower taller versus.
I wonder what you could do, or I wonder if something isn't as sturdy as it needs to be to make a tower.
I always say it's helpful to lead kids a little bit to the well, but let them have this aha moment because they feel so proud.
But let's say now an older kid.
I'd love to trace this, this difference between scaffolding and doing the work for our kids, because it really relates to boredom.
So where do you see this?
Give me an example where you see this, whether it's in play or maybe independent tasks, remembering the water bottle.
That's like our four, two, three, four, five world example.
Let's say we're now have kids in elementary school, right?
Where do you see these kind of decisions almost coming up and to lay out for parents like one pathway and another?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, when I think about things like.
Like I was saying, you know, kids are in college and they're struggling to make a decision.
Right.
And I'm saying like, this isn't really a college problem.
This is a play problem.
Right.
Because when kids have the opportunity to play a lot, they learn.
I can I can start without someone telling me what to do.
And like that alone, like that right there is a really important skill.
Yeah.
Yeah. starting without someone telling them what to do.
I mean, it's something I think in the workplace is a dream employee.
Like you know, not having someone who's waiting to be told what to do but looks around and is like oh, I see an opportunity.
So again, forget just college.
This is a skill for life.
OK, so let's say it's my five, six, seven year old.
Now they come home.
They have a day where they don't have an activity and they're like, I don't know what to do.
I'm bored.
Yeah.
Show me two paths.
One where you're kind of doing the decision for your kid and one where you're setting your kid up to be able to be someone who can make those decisions.
I mean, I understand a lot of times when kids say I'm bored, our immediate thing is to start listing. it's either you have all those toys, you have all those toys, and now you're gonna tell me you're bored, right?
So there's that like resentment thing, okay?
Or we're gonna say, okay, well, we could do this, we could do this, we can go here, we can do that.
Yep, we can do that.
Or they are gonna do that thing, right?
Where they say, then I'm gonna give you some chores.
You know, like a punishment.
We've all kind of done that.
I've definitely done that.
I'll give you things to do.
Yeah, I'll give you things to do.
But you know, I think instead if we can go back to that scaffolding and saying like hmm, you are bored and you do have a whole day ahead of you.
You're not really used to that.
Let's think back for a minute.
What's something you did last time you were bored?
I remember on Saturday when you were building and you were, you know, creating the structure and you were really upset to stop building because we had to leave for the birthday party.
Do you want me to help you think through what you were working on?
Maybe you'll want to do that again or maybe you'll come up with a new idea.
Yeah, I really like to think of You know, I'm bored.
I don't know what to do more as a bid for connection and less as give me something to do.
So if you lead with a connection.
Oh, I hate when I'm bored too, or I have those times at the end of the day, or that's a hard feeling.
And then you kind of wonder with your kid or do you want me to help you remember?
You're more setting them up to be the type of person who can take initiative, rather than when you see the on board after school as my problem to fix.
I think this is something that happens with parents a lot.
We lock ourselves into the roles we don't want.
I don't want my kid to always come to me.
It's so annoying, right?
Like they're always coming to me.
Why can't they be more independent?
It is annoying.
But sometimes I think there's a reality check.
It's like, well, every time my kid is bored, I do fix it for them.
So I guess I am locking myself into being entertainer of the year, even though I'm kind of resentful of being entertainer for the year.
And I think like that word resentful is actually such an important piece in this, right?
Because the other piece for parents is you know that when you are the entertainer, you are on 24 seven.
And when you remove that job from your description, you actually have a lot more time back for yourself so that you can show up as the person you wanna be.
And also you feel more connected to your child.
You really do.
Oftentimes people will say gosh Lizzie, I did everything you said to do and my kid actually loves playing alone now.
And I feel kind of guilty, right?
And I think when that happens, they're missing that piece of reconnecting after, right?
And so really taking that time, like what did my kid end up doing when they were bored?
And this is, you know, great at any age is to go back and say at the end of the day hey, remember this morning when you came to me, you were so bored you didn't know what to do.
We thought it through.
I saw that you built this.
I would love to hear more about that when you're ready.
You know, we're not saying, what did you build?
Show me.
Whenever you're ready.
I heard those baby dolls crying in the playroom.
I wonder what they were sad about.
You know we're not questioning them like they have to tell you, but we just want them to know, like you noticed.
I noticed you playing, right?
And so then we're doing two things.
One, we're saying your play really matters, right?
I notice you and your ideas and also you've got this.
Like you did that.
You had a problem, we thought it through together and you worked it out.
And that really reinforces to them for the next time and the next time.
And then they really become that kid who's like I don't want to go with you to wherever because I've got a great idea to play with my magnet tiles.
They become those kids who race home after school with a really good idea of something that they need paper and tape to work out.
Yep.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking, even as our kids get older and I know you have older kids, I've you know kind of right in the middle where I think about you know, are kids always forgetting the water bottle?
And these patterns, there's so many extensions of them that don't explicitly have to do with play.
And the difference between every day.
Here's your water bottle.
Here's your water bottle, even though I'm thinking I don't want to be my kid's water bottle, remember when he's 18, right.
Even though I keep doing that.
Versus, hey, you keep forgetting your water bottle.
I wonder... what you would need on the wall or somewhere in our house to remember.
And I think that binary is something you explain so well around boredom and playing these skills, where it's really the binary of fixing our kid's problem or creating a container for them to solve their own problems.
And the benefits of that, like when you're no longer your kid's water bottle rememberer.
You do have more time to talk to them about different things because you're not running around your house and depleted all the time.
And you end up with a kid who knows deep down.
I can be in charge of my water bottle.
And if I forget, and if you know, it's still OK, like it's not the end of the world, or maybe my teacher is annoyed at me because I forgot my violin.
And that's OK, too, because I can learn how to advocate for myself.
And it's not. in the way of saying to your kid, well, you forgot, so now you deal with it.
It's not like that.
It's saying like, gosh, you know, you did forget your violin.
Is there a way I can support you to remember your violin?
Yes.
Yes.
And also saying, how did you manage that?
You know, like, what did that feel like for you?
Yeah.
Right?
You're in it with them.
You're walking next to them.
And that's what I want parents to understand about play.
You walk next to them in figuring it out, but it belongs to them.
It's not our job to create the magic of play.
That belongs to them.
And I think you're also saying your approach is that's in them.
It's actually in them.
It's inherent in who they are as people.
Yeah.
They have interests.
They have a drive for autonomy.
They are so creative.
Yeah.
So I'm thinking about the parents listening who says this.
OK, this this all resonates.
And my kid isn't two or five anymore.
And they're constantly looking for me for entertainment.
How do I you know, how do I shift the front of the ship a little bit?
What are some things.
Knowing the whining, the protests, the you used to do this for me is kind of coming their way.
I would be really upfront with, say, my seven-year-old, right?
I am your partner in this.
Like let's figure this out together right, every day you keep coming home and you know i'm, i work from home and and i'm working, and you come in and you really want to go on the ipad because you're not sure what to do and like i get that right, because sometimes, when i don't know what to do, i go on my phone right.
So like i get that right so, right there.
We're not saying like you're bad for coming to me or you, you should know what to do.
We're not saying that.
We're saying like i see you, i get it, like it happens to me too, right.
And then I would say, and I really want to help you make a change in this, because there's a lot of afternoons that could feel really good.
You have so many good ideas.
There's so many important things about you that you deserve time to work on.
And I want to help you work on those.
Right.
So let's think about, like what kind of things would you, if you were in charge in the afternoon?
What would you be doing?
And even if it gets crazy and fantastical, you're not gonna jump in with well no, we can't do that.
You're really gonna go to that place with them.
Let them fantasize about it because it's a window for you to see in, right?
And then does that mean you have to go out and buy 50 craft kits and say yes to the iPad?
No.
But it does mean that you're going to say, OK, like it sounds like you really like art, you know.
And you know we have a lot of markers and stuff in the cabinet but you know they are kind of hard to get to.
And when you do try to pull down the paper, everything comes crashing down.
So, you know, that is what I like to call a barrier to play.
Right.
So for me as an adult, I'm not going to see it as my job to go out and buy materials.
I am going to see it as my job to remove the barrier to them getting started.
So that might mean let's try saying tomorrow, when you come home, I'm going to put out on the table, just like some paper and some of those markers that you got for your birthday last year, and maybe some stickers like what kind of stickers do you think like we have that you know, and I'm going to put those out on the table and have a snack with them.
Right.
I'm going to connect with them before I ask them to do something on their own.
Yep.
And so first of all, I just love that step by step.
And the other thing I want to add is your kid won't come home and say this is such a better afternoon than the iPad.
Thank you for that setup.
I love this invitation to play.
They will not.
I feel like most kids, if they're not used to that, will whine.
They will.
Or they'll just say, I have an idea.
You could just let me be in my iPad.
What do I want to do?
Be in my iPad all day.
And it's so important not to see that as a failure, but as a actually totally predictable step.
Yes.
Right.
Like if I was in a stage of eating, like I don't know, just Kit Kats and Reese's every day as my snack.
And I was like, I want to make a shift.
This isn't like so great for my long term energy, whatever.
And I had, I don't know, whatever else out.
I can't expect that I'd be like, oh, I'm so happy for these carrots and hummus.
No, of course not.
We all want the thing that's easiest and most dopamine giving with the least amount of effort.
It's just how our brains work.
And so it's a little bit I think of a fight and just want to normalize that.
That is part of the process.
You know what?
Yes.
It is our child's job to push back.
We want kids who push back.
I want my kids when they feel uncomfortable to speak up.
Right.
Yeah.
And sometimes that's messy and annoying and uncomfortable.
But so something that I usually tell parents to do is to sort of play that out in your head.
Like OK, I'm going to take that extra 10 minutes to put out the markers and the you know whatever.
And my kid is probably going to do it for two minutes because they're not used to this, because it's new.
It's new.
And they're practicing and they're learning.
Right.
Yes.
So maybe what do they need?
Maybe I should set it up next to me at my desk.
Right.
Maybe they want you know.
I can say like I can't talk to you right now, but you can do your work while I'm doing mine.
Yep.
Right.
Maybe that co-regulation is going to be something next to each other, as you're learning something new.
And I might even say like you're learning something new and sometimes it helps to be next to someone when you're doing it.
Do you want to work next to me at my desk?
That's exactly right.
And again...
Does that mean the first time they're gonna do it?
No, you should probably do it when you have a fake meeting, knowing that your kid's gonna be poking you the entire time.
You're like good thing I had my fake meeting today because I have to scaffold this totally new skill.
One thing I want parents to think about because I think it's a big part of it when we make any shift and I recently did this live event in our Good Inside community where this was so powerful where I said, when you're making a shift in your family rhythms right, or your kind of family routines, and you kind of know your kid's gonna be upset
We all focus on, then my kid freaks out.
But before you tell your kid the decision right, maybe now we're gonna do markers, or you know, instead of write to iPad.
How much certainty and conviction do you have in your own decision?
And you know, the first response in the Zoom was zero.
And we're always looking, you know, for confirmation that we were right.
And our kids are going to give it to us.
Right.
So we right away are like, see, I knew they couldn't do it.
Well, that's exactly right.
And this is why I just want to add here that anyone listening who's thinking that's going to be so hard.
My kid's going to freak out.
This sounds too perfect.
No, you're right.
It's going to be hard.
Any change is hard.
The thing that we don't focus on enough, I think, is we need to have conviction.
Not that it's going to be easy.
We have to have conviction in a shift in family rhythms that we think it's long term going to be better for anyone everyone before we do it.
Because, if not, we're going to say it like this don't you think it's better to do markers after school?
And I always picture a five-year-old being like, are you consulting me?
Am I supposed to make you feel better here?
And then they do freak out, in part because they're kind of being asked to do our job.
And also when you have a kid who's not used to a blank piece of paper and markers.
They don't know what to do.
And so something that's really helpful for parents is to, before you make this shift, take a day or two and just jot down what does my kid talk about?
A lot, even if it's like their favorite TV show that counts.
Their favorite video game, that counts, right?
And so how can I support their interest in whatever I'm offering them, right?
Because that is sort of a path and a way in, instead of just giving them something blank and saying go for it, right.
Which I panic about.
Right.
So instead I might say you know like, if I have a kid parents who say like well, my kid doesn't build with blocks and I'm not going to sit there, you know, with these little wooden blocks.
And I'm like, you're right.
They're not right.
They're not right.
But if you're going to give them some wooden blocks with their favorite bluey figures or something that is connected to them, something they're already thinking about, something that's important to them, and they can work those themes out in real life,
That's how you're going to hook them in.
That's right.
And this is where the lack of rigidity is helpful.
So many times.
What our kids are interested in in an online game or a show can give us insight into the very areas they can play more independently.
So I mean, my daughter, who's 12 now, when she was little, she was obsessed with Paw Patrol.
OK, I mean, obsessed, right?
And that didn't mean I went out and bought every Paw Patrol tower and toy and whatever.
But you know what I did do?
I invested in a lot of those little mini Paw Patrol figurines and we brought those everywhere.
Yep.
They came in the playroom because they paired so well with her.
They gave her an in, right?
Great. to build, to play, to draw.
They gave her something to talk about when she felt awkward at a family function.
They gave her something to do in the restaurant when her food wasn't coming.
And you know she was three.
And so, you know, a snack was a very big deal.
Yes.
You know, and so you really want to think like, what is something that my kid loves?
It doesn't have to be something that you see as, you know, some very important big theme.
It's literally as simple as the Paw Patrol figure.
Yes.
Thank you for that.
OK, I want to end with a rapid fire round all around these themes.
You ready?
OK.
People need to understand this about boredom.
Boredom is safe and a good thing.
Love that.
What's something you've learned about yourself in your adult moments of boredom?
Yeah.
I need more of them.
I talk a lot about other people carving out times for boredom for their kids.
And as a grown up, I need to practice what I preach.
Yeah.
Thank you for the honesty.
Yes.
A phrase, idea, belief, mantra you come back to around boredom?
Boredom is a place where my kids can really...
Have time and space to understand who they are and feel comfortable being with themselves.
Beautiful.
If every parent could remember one thing about independent play, what would it be?
It looks different for all kids.
And so many things count that you might not think do.
Great.
One thing to not say to a kid who's bored and one thing that's often helpful to say.
Something that's helpful to say is to really reflect back to them is.
It's hard when you're not sure what to do.
Right.
And something that's probably not helpful is listing off a bunch of activities.
Thank you.
Thank you for your work, for this really important book.
So excited for more parents to get it in their homes.
Thank you for having me.
There are three main takeaways I'm still thinking about from this episode, and I wanted to share them with you.
Number one, tolerating our kids' boredom starts with our reaction to their boredom.
I know that's hard to hear, but I always think, wait, that's a good thing.
Change starts with something under my control.
That's actually very empowering.
Number two.
My kid being bored is a sign I'm doing a good job as a parent.
I'm sorry, can we all pat ourselves on the back for that?
It's not a sign I'm not doing enough.
It's a sign that I'm actually trying to protect some amount of time for my kid when they are not stimulated externally, when they are not given an activity, when they actually are trying to figure out something inside themselves in terms of their own creativity, their own ideas, their own independence.
And three, play is actually a really important thing for our kids to be successful adults.
Play is play.
But I also love what Lizzie said, that this is where kids are building skills.
It's where they're taking risks and learning how to deal with struggles.
It's where they develop initiative, taking an idea and putting it into a state of action.
That's amazing and will make me protect play in a very different way.
Let's end the way we always do.
Place your feet on the ground.
Place a hand on your heart.
And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.
I'll see you soon.
