This is an All Ears English podcast, episode 1168.
What kind of perfectionist are you?
Welcome to the All Ears English podcast, downloaded more than 50 million times.
We believe in connection, not perfection.
With your American hosts Lindsay McMahon, the English adventurer, and Michelle Kaplan, the New York radio girl, coming to you from Boston and New York City, USA.
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Hey, Lindsay, how's it going?
It's going great, Michelle.
It's going great.
Yeah, week's going well.
I can't believe we're already in June.
This is insane.
I know.
I know.
How is this year going by so fast?
I don't know.
Halfway through the year already.
It's so crazy that we're going to be in 2020 soon.
Yeah, oh my gosh, that'll be weird.
Yeah, to say 2020.
Yeah, so but I have a I always like to start out with questions for you, Lindsay.
I know you always grill me, but it's good.
I do.
What can I tell you?
It's fun.
It's fun.
Are you a perfectionist?
Wow, that's a big question.
So this is our whole thing.
And this is my perspective that kind of informs our podcast here.
I think I have tended towards perfectionism in the past, just because I want to do a good job with stuff.
But no, I've learned over the years that I can't be a perfectionist.
Because there is no such thing as perfect.
And you just drive yourself crazy.
And you lose moments of life if you're a perfectionist.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, that's so true.
Yeah, it can be really horrible.
Yeah.
Actually, so, I mean, I want to...
I wouldn't consider myself a perfectionist, but the more I think about it and the more I realize that in some ways I definitely can be.
And I think that, you know, it's not a good thing when I can be a perfectionist.
But you actually put up an article.
You sent me an article a while ago.
And I and I saw it and I read it and I thought that it was so interesting.
So I got to spend some time looking at it.
And it's all about perfectionism.
So I wanted to talk about it today.
How's that sound?
I love it.
I love this topic.
I mean, on our show, our main slogan, our main belief is connection, not perfection.
And this is what we're all about, like understanding how can perfectionism kind of be detrimental to our progress?
Right.
And the title of this article is How Perfectionism Can Be Destructive.
Yeah.
So it's, yeah, I think people think sometimes about perfectionism as like, a good thing.
But this talks about, you know, the negative parts to it.
So this article is by Olga Kazan.
This is on the Atlantic.
And this was way back in November of 2018.
Okay, yeah.
So The Atlantic is a good one.
I don't read The Atlantic regularly, but I think it's supposed to be a pretty good publication in terms of like, the quality of the writing.
Have you heard that?
I don't know.
It was a good article.
Yeah, it's supposed to be a pretty good... Maybe I'm thinking of The New Yorker.
I know The New Yorker is like another level of stories.
Oh, yeah.
Well, The New Yorker is very popular.
The New Yorker is kind of more like a magazine.
I'm not sure if that's even available online.
It must be.
But anyways, The Atlantic.
Okay, Michelle.
So we're going to talk through some of the main points in this article that I found interesting.
And guys, we'll give you the link.
But before we do that, we wanted to thank our reviewers on our app.
Right, Lindsay?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I want to say a special thank you to Kata Flower Floor from the US on May 1st for reviewing us.
And she asked a question in her review.
So really good strategy.
Let us know what you think about the show, the app, and also throw in your question.
Why not?
Let us know what you want to hear on the show.
Let's see.
Lee from Vietnam and juciella from brazil, uh wagner nacimiento from the us, uh den ph from the philippines and lorena from china.
Thank you guys for these awesome michelle.
They are all five star reviews.
Amazing, we love that.
Thank you.
Yeah, we love it.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, thank you so much.
So guys, we want to talk about this article a little bit, because I think it's really important and it brings about some good points.
So just to talk about a little bit of a summary, the article talks about how perfectionism has become more and more intense among young people.
They're talking a lot about young people like young adults, and they talk a lot about college students.
So more so now than in the recent past, So there was a study done by Thomas Curran and Andrew Hill.
And so apparently, you know, students focus so much on being perfect, that they don't stop working.
And this can lead to other difficulties.
So The study actually looked at three different types of perfection.
And this is something that I thought was really interesting, because I never thought of perfectionism, not perfection.
I never thought about perfectionism being classified into different types.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So they're kind of so here they're going below the surface.
Right.
Because clearly, perfectionism is probably more like a symptom of a bigger problem, like a symptom of something else.
Right.
And that's what we're going to look into here.
There's something below the surface.
Like, why are we trying to be perfect?
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
And so the first one is that it's people like the ways in which people are perfectionist.
One is socially prescribed perfectionism.
So this is about wanting other people to like you.
Interesting.
Okay.
So you feel like, you know, that a lot of pressure to make others like you.
So like kind of like a seeking approval kind of thing.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of people have that.
Interesting.
So it comes from outside.
It's like an externally motivated type of approval seeking.
And yeah, I love it.
Interesting.
That's the first one.
What else?
The second one is self-oriented.
So just like how it sounds, it's more just like directed at yourself.
Like you, you want to be perfect.
You want to be perfect, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, so we're going inward and kind of attacking ourselves.
Guys, see if you can.
If you have struggled with perfectionism in learning English, see if you can identify yourself in one of these.
And maybe at different times, we're using all three kind of motivations.
Right.
But, you know, we all struggle with perfectionism to some extent, I'm sure.
So we're all in this together, guys.
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
And the last one I found to be the most interesting, because I never thought about this as being a form of perfectionism.
Oh, interesting.
So this is other oriented perfectionism.
So this means that you want others to be perfect, right?
So you really kind of demand a lot of other people.
That makes sense.
It's like projection, right?
You actually really want it in yourself, but you demand it in others more so than yourself.
It's like you're projecting.
It's projection 101.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you just like expect that everyone will just behave in a certain way.
And when they don't, you get really upset.
So yeah, so I had never really thought about dividing up perfectionism into categories.
But I thought that that was one of the most interesting parts of this article.
Okay.
Yeah, I like it.
We're really getting psychological today.
But sometimes guys, it's good to put the vocabulary down for a day and just think about what are the deeper things that are pushing us in English learning.
Like, what's the underlying emotion when it comes to learning a new language?
Because it's a whole body thing.
Like we're in it 100%.
It's not just our mind.
It's our bodies.
It's our emotions.
They're in this experience of learning a new language.
So what's motivating?
What's behind it?
Did you guys know that we have an Instagram channel now?
We're over there every week sharing fun clips, videos and stories.
So go and search for All Ears English on Instagram.
See you there.
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Exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
So, but in the study, they found that all of these forms of perfectionism had risen.
Interesting.
Right.
So everybody wants to be perfect in every single different – in every single way more than in the past.
And again, we were focusing on young adults.
I think most – I think it was mostly actually the college student, but they've mentioned young adults as well.
So I thought that that was – really interesting, and the article talks about how a lot of students aren't really going out and socializing anymore because they are so focused on being perfect and they're missing out.
Well, I was wondering if maybe they mentioned like does social media have anything to do with this, because some people have channels where they portray this perfect version of themselves.
You can do that from behind a phone.
But once it comes to like producing something or showing up, you may get paralyzed if you have to show up with a less than perfect version of yourself, which is what we have every day.
We're never perfect.
Right, right, right, right.
I know that's so true.
Like I didn't think about social media, but that is such a good point.
Like that definitely can make you feel pressure to be perfect as well.
Right, right.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Something else that I wanted to bring up from the article that I also thought was an interesting point was it talks about how some perfectionists they might, you know take it too far the perfectionism, and then they get into this cycle because they're so scared that they're going to end up failing, that they feel terrible, they have low confidence, they feel like even if somebody says something nice about them, they don't believe it.
They think that person is wrong.
Yeah.
Right.
Like how could that person think that like, clearly I'm not perfect.
And like it, just like.
So this desire to be perfect makes you end up having kind of like this low confidence.
Yeah.
Yeah, guys, think about it in terms of your English learning.
I mean, have you ever gotten compliments from, let's say, a native speaker or a teacher who said oh, you've really improved.
Do you just reject that compliment or do you just disregard that and focus only on what you're not doing correctly?
Or do you soak that in and just say yeah, I have gotten a little bit better, know that's pretty good.
You can soak it in and reflect on that.
That can build our confidence, get us out of that perfectionist mentality.
Right right right, that's so true.
And so i have one more thing that uh, that i wanted to bring up from the article.
Sorry guys, this is kind of a bullet point discussion, because i think that you should read this article and think about how it applies to your life and it.
We have a lot to learn here.
So the other thing is that they talked about how perfectionists, they may actually end up doing worse because they have a hard time finishing things.
This can kind of slow them down a little bit.
So, that's one thing.
And also and this is so interesting sometimes, and I had never thought about this a perfectionist may actually ruin something for themselves.
Oh, wow.
So they don't have to face failure.
They can kind of like have an excuse.
So the article gives an example of a student being out, like a student being out too late before an exam so that they can say oh they, I got a D on the exam.
It's because I was out partying the night before.
And that is what we call self-sabotage.
Wow, interesting.
I mean, I'm sure that a lot of our listeners everyone can see themselves in this to a small degree at some point in our lives, right?
I mean little things, maybe not this example, but we're all somewhere on the perfectionism spectrum, I'm sure.
And so it's just a matter of knowing where we are and seeing these tricks that we play on ourselves, that kind of end up impeding our success.
Right?
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
And so the article mentions even people going through to therapy and, like it says that you know, try and focus by living by your, your values.
Values.
Love it.
Right.
But rather than the, rather than always thinking about the goals, Yes.
Thinking, you know, kind of taking the time to be like, okay, you know what, I want to be perfect.
I get that.
But things don't work out.
And you have to, you have to be okay with that.
And just being like, okay, perfectionism really doesn't exist.
And whatever, anything is fine.
And just kind of like coming to terms with that.
Yeah.
Oh, it's so true.
And that's I mean.
That's why we always say here connection, not perfection, because the value is connection with people.
And I was actually interviewed on a podcast a few weeks ago, someone who just like a linguistic podcast, someone who features like language learners and people who teach language.
And, you know, he said, what is the biggest mistake or what's the message, right?
What do you want to leave the listeners with?
And It's like you're not learning English to learn English.
You're not learning English to learn grammar, unless you're a linguist and you want to sit down and nerd out.
And that's fine, too.
But most of us are not learning English to learn English.
We're learning English to connect.
It's not about the language.
It's actually about the people.
Or the group or whatever the message we're trying to convey.
So that's the value that we want to go to when we feel ourselves stuck in that perfectionism.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
And yeah, exactly.
I think, you know, this relates to language learning in so many ways.
I mean, because if you sit at home, we talk about this all the time, right?
Yeah.
Focusing on the perfect grammar from your textbook, you're going to miss out on that real practice.
And the other thing is, if you're too worried about being perfect, you might be so scared that you're scared of speaking right.
Yeah.
Paralysis, right?
We can get paralyzed.
Right, right, right.
So I'm just imagining, you know, like trying to tell a story or an avoiding telling a story that would connect you to someone, because you feel you don't know how to tell it.
Maybe the grammar you're not sure of or some vocabulary words.
But guys, we want to push you to try, even if it's not perfect.
If you don't tell that story, maybe you think, oh my gosh, this is a great story.
Everybody's going to love this.
I'm going to connect with all these people.
And then you're like, oh, but I don't know that word.
I don't know how to explain this time period.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What a shame if you leave that out because people miss out on knowing the real you.
People can't know you if you don't say anything.
Right.
If you're quiet and you don't share yourself, people can't know who you are.
They can't feel connected to you.
Right.
So really like perfectionism ends up being like being a big block between us and our relationships.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
Something that could really develop if you didn't tell that story.
Maybe I would have told you a story and you would have had a similar story, and then we would have become best friends.
But we'll never know.
Exactly.
That's so true, Michelle.
It's so true.
And guys, we all struggle with this.
Everyone.
Everyone.
Like I said before, everyone is somewhere on the spectrum of perfectionism.
And I think it's not something to be ashamed of.
It's something to think about.
Yeah, yeah, guys.
So you know, take the pressure off of yourself.
You know, try and use a couple new words a day, but don't make it like oh, I have a whole 100 word vocabulary list.
You know, take things slow.
And then, you know, just just focus on a little bit at a time, I think is a good way to do this.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And in your work, if you guys are doing anything like building technology product, For example, for us a good exercise has been building this app over the last few years, because when you build a technology product like an app, you cannot be a perfectionist.
You have to kind of release a version of the app that is.
That is good.
It's not perfect right, it's never perfect.
That's the way that technology gets built right.
Even even like apps that are developed like facebook or other programs are constantly updating.
So you have to take a mentality of right, something out there that is good enough, it's good, and then you keep updating the app, Right.
And so that's helped us quite a bit to take on that.
So try to take on like a developer's mentality.
If that makes any sense.
If you guys work in technology, you know what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I really like that point, Lindsay.
I think that's a good one.
It's true.
And even when you think about like, you know, I think about, did you watch The Simpsons growing up?
I wasn't allowed to, but yeah, I knew about The Simpsons.
Well, I don't know if you remember, but in the older episodes they looked you can tell which is the older, which episodes are older, because they look so different.
Like, and then you're like, wow, they look like so much better now.
Like the, they look so much more like themselves.
Like clearly they've been adapted.
Right.
Yeah.
They just have a fresher look, the characters.
And also when you watch any show.
Sometimes, if you watch one of the earlier episodes, you can tell the actors haven't completely adapted to their roles.
They seem different.
And it just goes to show you that...
Yeah, adapting even in a public setting like on TV or, you know, that can even change over time.
And so, you know, things become better, they become more fine-tuned.
And so, yeah, just think about that as well.
Yeah, it's like letting down your guard and saying I'm just going to iterate.
I'm going to iterate and have different phases of development and whatever I'm creating, and I'm going to do it publicly.
And that's okay.
Because impossible.
You'll never release what you're trying to release or say what you're trying to say if you're waiting for it to be perfect, because it'll never be, it'll never get to that point.
Yeah, that's so cool.
Guys, wow.
This has been a really rich topic.
I'm glad we had this talk, Lindsay.
Definitely, Michelle.
It's always good to chime in a little bit on our theme, our core value here, which is connection, not perfection.
So that's...
And yeah, guys, tweet it out.
You know, we now have an Instagram channel, which is exciting.
And we're working with the hashtag All Ears English.
So come over to our page, follow us, and we're going to be talking about this concept over there.
Okay, awesome.
Well, this was fun, Lindsay.
Thanks for hanging out.
And guys, don't be perfectionists.
Yeah.
Sounds good, Michelle.
I'll talk to you soon.
All right.
Bye.
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