Thank you, hello and welcome back to hot pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by asian boss girl.
I'm em.
I'm the older sister you've always wanted.
I'm Jen, the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Madeline, your girl who thinks everything really is that deep.
So do you ever see their name show up on your Instagram and your heart drops to the bottom of your chest.
Do you still have their location?
Do you ever see old photographs and cards from them and you read their words and you're like I thought you meant forever.
Does your iPhone ever create a slideshow of you two that it just presents you on a random Tuesday morning and you have to watch it?
Do you still think about them more than you would like to admit?
Who are we talking about?
It's not a boy.
It's your best friend.
You mean ex-best friend?
Oh, yeah.
An ex-bestie.
Oh, no.
I'm sweating already.
That's right.
We're talking about friendship breakups today.
The worst kind of breakup.
Honestly, the type of breakups that I think about, more than I think about some of the boy breakups really.
For sure.
They're awful.
Really?
I hate them.
Yeah.
Why are they worse than boy breakups?
I have a theory.
I have a theory.
Because when you think about a boy, you know that you might break up with them until you meet your forever boy.
But with friends, you really believe in forever.
You're like, we will be BFF, best friends.
Forever.
So the boys are like, eh, forever's enough.
It's kind of part of the process with a guy.
It's just like, if it doesn't work out, then we're just not going to talk.
It's going to be sad, but that's just how life goes.
But for friends it's like there is no reason for us to ever end.
You said forever.
You said forever.
You have higher expectations with friends.
You promised yeah.
So why are we here?
We talked about the nursing homes we live at together as we sip our coffee on the board.
We said our children would get married together and finally our bloodlines could.
What was it?
Inter inter inter, intertwine.
Collide, collide.
What is that visual?
We talked about how our grandkids would get married and our bloodlines would finally collide.
Yeah.
Forever really feels like forever with best friends.
And so when it's not forever, it hurts a little more.
The hope is real.
The hope is so real.
So, let's dive in.
Let's open up our world.
I hate this topic so much.
Clearly, we still have a lot of feelings.
I'm gonna cry.
Friend breakups are actually like a big, all-encompassing experience that I think everyone has experienced hopefully not.
Hopefully not everyone.
Hopefully not, but realistically it's real, it's part of life.
And there's so many reasons why friendships end.
Sometimes you're the reason, sometimes they're the reason.
Sometimes you grow apart and you just like naturally fade, and then sometimes you get your heart ripped out of your chest, as you actually do the whole breakup experience.
What are some of the types of ways that friendships have ended or changed over time for you guys?
It could be, you're right, there's so many different reasons.
It could honestly just be geography, like someone moves away, someone moves schools, someone moves classrooms.
It could be a number of reasons.
Like proximity.
Yeah, proximity. i think that's probably the one that feels the sometimes the least painful because it's kind of a mutual acknowledgement of life has led us different places we might boomerang back together again but you know like we're just living our own lives now and like wish them all of the best and you have no like No, it will.
Yeah, it hurts.
But the harder ones is when one side or the other wants this to work and keep going.
That is like the true friendship breakups that like I think really are heart wrenching.
So let's just dive right in, shall we?
Is there?
When we talk about a friend breakup, I think a lot of times there's one or two that really come to mind first.
When someone says friend breakup, there's one.
There's always one.
The names have populated.
What is the situation around the one that comes to mind for you Mads?
I think of someone that we tried to work through stuff.
As we were having conflicts, as we were having discussions, it just became very clear that we wanted different things out of the friendship.
I want to be able to grow together and do the uncomfortable.
But if some people just aren't in that place yet in life, or they don't want to do that or they want to just like, do the easy coasting thing.
And like, there's nothing wrong with that, but that's just not like what I want in a relationship.
And so that was a situation where I was like wow, I really thought that we were going to like walk those paths together, but like, like time and time again seeing that like they don't want to do it.
You're like I don't, I don't know what more more i can do here.
Yeah, you know yeah, were there.
Did it come up in a certain way that, like when things time and time again, you like realize there's mismatched expectations and friendships?
Because i think that's a pretty common scenario of like oh, we expected different things from what this yeah, looks like and how we could be together.
There's been like like, multiple people actually like because sometimes it can be as shallow as like oh, this person just like doesn't want to hang out and do the same things that I want to do, or it could go, it could go a little deeper where, like you are in conflict and they don't actually want to participate in the conflict, which is like something that we had another episode about.
You know yeah um, But when you're trying to say hey, I didn't like when you did this, but they actually just don't like that and they think that you're attacking them as a person.
It's like, oh, no, actually, I want to deepen this relationship.
But then they view that as you're being difficult.
Then it's like, oh, we don't view relationship the same way.
So maybe this isn't going to work out.
Did you have hopes for that relationship at the time?
The thing is, you always know.
You kind of know at the beginning.
You know at the beginning.
But then like.
Sometimes you don't.
You want people to surprise you with like, yes, I do want this.
But it always kind of starts like, eh, we'll see where this goes.
Yeah.
I'm not going to hold on too tightly.
Zero expectations.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But Jay seems to disagree.
Yeah, I've had the one that comes to mind for me is one that.
So I guess also we met when we were younger.
We were, very we were in our formative years and we we kind of like, grew up and raised each other in a lot of ways.
Like the first friend that I feel like I saw beyond her outer layers and called that person out.
I was like, oh my gosh, I see this person that you are, that you don't show to anybody else.
But I want to see that person and she did the same for me.
So we helped each other blossom so much in our formative years, but as we entered into our 20s and mid-20s, We just we weren't aligned anymore.
And if anyone's been ghosted by a friend, that one really hurts the most.
So that this friend like it was hot and cold for a while actually, which made it even more confusing, because she would ghost and then would reach out with like these really sweet messages and like really for me, and then would like disappear again.
So it was really hot and cold and on and off for a period of time, which I was like okay, that's fine.
Like something is happening in your life, but I'm here.
But then I think, yeah. the ghosting really hurt.
Yeah, that's probably the one that comes to mind.
And like, I believed we were going to like spend.
Well, I think that was also really difficult, because there was never any closure and, like you, just kept waiting.
Yeah, you're like, maybe two years.
Yeah, long time.
You just hold hope.
Honestly, until this day.
I'm like if at any point, life and cheaper ranks back like there's, there's always the door open for her, you.
She has a really special place in your heart.
Yeah, exactly.
When that love is there.
When was this?
So she ghosted you.
Yeah.
Once and for all.
Yeah.
I mean, for now.
For now.
When was the last time you guys talked?
The last time we talked was probably like three years ago.
Okay.
So it's been a while.
It's been a while.
Yeah.
It's been a hot minute.
But you think about her a lot?
I think about her all the time.
I think about her all the time.
And I still have so much love for her.
But I think there's also just we're just so different now that if we were to come back together, we're kind of strangers in a lot of ways.
We'd have to get to know each other again while still knowing how everything from it would be a different relationship.
It would be very different.
Yeah.
So there have been people who have ghosted you.
There's also people who ghost.
So I've definitely ghosted someone before.
Um, and I know that, That's also a mode of protecting oneself.
There's the distance, the proximity thing.
So for me, there was this one friendship I had that I loved. so much.
I felt like we played really well together.
We riffed back and forth.
It was so fun.
I just I felt like this person was me times two.
It's just copy and paste.
And I just really loved our friendship.
And I thought it was so special.
And I was like, I've never met anyone, met anyone like you before.
But you know, the closer you get, you start to butt heads and you start to friction.
Yeah, there's friction, there's conflict.
And so for me, I am never down for just ghosting someone.
I want to give them many, many chances to to repair and to recuperate any hurt that they have inflicted upon me.
And so, for this friend in particular, rather assuming For this friend in particular, what I really loved about them was that they were always the life of the party.
They were so friendly with everyone, and people loved them so much.
And that's the exact reason why I love them as well.
But then I began to see how, oh, they're starting to treat me a little worse than everyone else.
I don't know if this is just me.
I know exactly who this person is.
Like, oh, now they're joking about my body.
Now they're joking about my intelligence.
And those are things that I am...
Yeah, I hate those.
Those are scary.
And so it was meant to tease, but the venom still came out strong.
And I was like, I don't know why you're joking with me this way.
And so I brought it up with them.
I was like, hey, this kind of hurt when you said that.
And so, instead of them saying like, oh my gosh, i'm so sorry, i didn't know that this hurt you like that in this way.
I'm gonna do better, because that's what i expected, all they said was i was just a joke, i was just joking like, don't be so sensitive.
Yeah, so sensitive.
So, on top of feeling insulted, i was also invalidated or gaslit gaslit, so i was.
It was just like Building layers and I was like oh, I just don't really like how I feel after I talked to this person.
I don't like how I feel after hanging out with them.
I always felt worse about myself and I can see them drive off laughing, and so I'm like well, This is not the type of friendship that I want.
So, for this person in particular,
I gave them a lot of chances to to fix and over and over they didn't really exhibit signs of wanting to change.
So I just excused myself and I didn't say a word because I was like, no matter what I say, nothing's going to happen.
Nothing's going to change.
So yeah, I excused myself.
They noticed my absence.
They sent me a very long text about, oh, sorry if I did anything to hurt you.
And I was like, well, I was very specific about the ways in which you hurt me.
And you didn't address them.
So I don't feel like I want to be a participant in this friendship.
And so goodbye.
Yeah.
And I felt justified in that, too.
And of course, awful, awful.
I loved this person.
I still love them so much.
But I was like, I don't think it's going to work.
I feel awful, and it's affecting my skin.
Once again.
Once again.
The amount of times that Ems is like, I love my skin.
Yeah, and of course, this is not the path I want to choose.
This is not the path I want to go.
Of course I want to be friends forever.
But, like, it's...
This is not sustainable if I just feel awful after every time we interact.
So that is an example of me ghosting someone.
This is not, of course, my mode that I choose to go, but sometimes I feel like it is necessary, just for your peace of mind.
Or a derivative of that is the slow fade.
The Homer Simpson into the bush.
In slow-mo.
Yeah.
That's the most natural way.
Oh my gosh.
I think that's the most natural way.
A lot of friendships, especially as adults, end up falling apart or closing the chapter on.
You just reach out a little bit less, they reach out a little bit less, and you naturally just don't pursue each other.
There's a mutual understanding.
Like, okay, this is over.
We had a great run.
Because adult friendships take a lot of effort now, and so it's natural, if both sides are not putting it in, that garden's not tended to and so it's not gonna grow with new things, you're not gonna spend as much time together, and then life kind of leads you in other directions.
So I feel like that's the most natural way to initiate a friend breakup now as an adult is just you reach out a little bit less, they reach out a little bit less.
It's so sad.
Do you guys prefer when it's explicitly stated, or would you prefer to have like a, like a, a dissipation, or would you would you prefer to be ghosted and naturally like?
Or a natural dissipation, or would you rather like have a discussion about it?
Oh, It depends.
If it's mutual, then I'm okay with the natural dissipation.
But if it's someone that I really want to be friends with and then I see them backing up, I'm like, oh no no no wait, come back.
It feels like rejection over and over and over again.
It's an awful feeling.
I think ghosting is fit for when one side wants it, the other side doesn't.
But you can't both ghost each other.
You know what I mean?
That's just fading.
That's just not pursuing.
That's not putting in effort.
But if it's when one side is very clearly putting in time and effort to try and the other side is just radio silence.
I think that in my book is ghosting.
I personally feel like it's better to just have the clarity or to have the conversation if you see that the other side is really trying.
When has a friendship breakup felt justified?
Like you were like, oh, okay, I messed up.
Oh, like when did I mess up?
When did I fuck it up?
Guilty.
There's like so many that I'm like.
So many.
I know, yeah.
I'm sorry.
Give us just one.
You know who you are.
She's sorry.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah.
And your life is probably better without me.
Oh, shoot.
No, can attest that that's not true.
Maybe for them it is, though.
Yeah, I think so.
There was one person who, like, I shit-talked.
And then they found out.
That's embarrassing.
It's really embarrassing.
Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like disgusting to say that out loud.
You know what I mean?
But like they found out and then I don't blame them because it's like, what?
What kind of friend would do that?
Exactly.
Even if I apologize to you, that trust is forever broken.
And I'm like, honestly, I deserved it.
I'm not proud of it.
It feels disgusting to say on camera, but that happened.
And I don't blame them at all.
I'm going to go in my corner now, put myself in time out now.
Yeah, because like i, i don't know like what, i don't even know what i said, but it was just like so, probably like unnecessary and just yeah gossipy.
Do you ever look back on that?
And you're just like You, just like shudder at self, yeah.
All the time.
And it's always like at the most random times, when you're like chopping vegetables, doing the dishes.
Yeah.
And you're like, I can't believe I did that.
Yeah.
It never leaves.
It never leaves.
I don't think the friendship would have worked out regardless, but I think that's also just a self-soothing balm, for what I did wasn't that bad, when in reality no, it really was that bad.
I made that happen.
And if that wasn't for me, maybe we would have had a fighting chance for a more shallow type of friendship, which is okay.
Maybe it wouldn't have been super deep.
But yeah, I ruined the chances of that.
And I don't feel great about it.
Sorry.
So what about you guys?
Take the heat now.
When did you fuck up a friendship?
Oh my gosh.
There was one time my friend bought me tickets to this DJ that I really loved for my birthday.
And I was in college at the time, so I had a very strict curfew.
And if I didn't make it home, I would have been grounded.
I don't know why, but when I entered college, my curfew got earlier and the repercussions got worse.
They knew you were crazy.
Yeah.
I told my parents, like, I'm going to go see this DJ, but I'm going to be home late.
But I didn't realize how late it was going to be.
So I found out.
So my friend got me these tickets.
We went out to dinner, and then we were about to go.
And then I looked at the lineup, and I was like, this DJ is going to go on at 1 AM.
I have to be home by 1030.
And so I didn't want to be a nuisance.
I didn't want to impose.
I just didn't want to impose like, oh, you have to take me all the way home.
At 10.30.
At 10.30.
So I called my sister and I was like, hey, I'm here.
Can you just pick me up?
Because I didn't want to trouble them anymore.
And so she showed up and then I left with her.
And then that friend that bought me the ticket felt so hurt because I didn't communicate anything.
I literally just left.
Because we were going to go with a group of friends.
Irish exit.
Irish exit, basically.
Yeah.
So in my head, I was being polite.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
I'll make it up to you.
I just cannot get home past 1030.
I will be grounded for like. months and I will be yelled at.
It was self-protection, but at the same time, it was not considered.
I could have looked up the lineup much earlier.
There was a lot of assumptions there.
And so afterwards that person was really hurt because of course they were looking forward to this experience with me.
It was not cheap and they planned the whole thing, and for me to just dip out for them, that was like really inconsiderate.
So they stopped talking to me.
I was gonna say, did the friendship end because of that though?
Yes.
Yes.
Oh, wow.
I think they also liked me, so.
Oh.
That too.
Oh, it's a guy.
Oh.
Oh, yeah, it's a guy.
It's a guy.
Okay, well.
Well, this is very different.
This might qualify this situation.
I was like, I will make it up to you.
Let's do something else.
And I thought that was enough to kind of cover my sins.
But I reached out.
What's happening?
I reached out over and over and over, and they were like, It was crickets.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then so we.
They were like done.
They were like, I don't want to be friends with someone who does this to their friends.
And so.
Sounds like a salty guy that was rejected.
Yeah, that seems kind of a lot though.
Like there was an opportunity to talk through for you to say.
I know.
I thought it was an overreaction, but.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was my fault.
Yeah, all things considered.
I mean, we did reconcile many, many years later, but the friendship was different afterwards.
Yeah.
That happens, I think, sometimes too, where you end up talking about the thing later, but then at that point it's been so many years, and then you're like okay, I'm glad we talked about this, but
I wish we could have talked about it then and there, and then you could have told me and I could have said I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
And reconciled then.
Wait, Jay, when did you fuck up a friendship?
Well, when I went to college.
Because I'm like, Jay's not going to get off scot-free.
When I went to college my freshman fall going from high school.
I went to a very tight-knit, lots of rules high school.
Boarding school.
Boarding school.
Yeah.
So when I went to college, I was like, I'm going to reinvent myself.
And I went kind of a little nuts.
Freshman fall.
For lack of better words.
Yeah.
Nuts is a tame word for Jennifer in college.
A whole other episode.
So I had kind of a chaotic freshman fall, complete with a lot of what you would expect from a college freshman fall experience, while also dealing with a lot of mental health stuff at the time too.
And I had a really good friend from high school that would consistently reach out and check in all that kind of stuff.
But I was just caught up in the storm of my own world that I wasn't responsive a lot and I feel like after that fall period when we would see each other, when we're both home, there was definitely like more distance and like the the dynamic had shifted.
And it wasn't until like two years later where she brought it up and she was like yeah, actually during that period, like I was really trying, but it felt like you didn't care, But she didn't know why.
But I think the hurt from that was just too much for us to reconcile.
It was really beautiful, honestly, and helpful for us to even have had that conversation.
Yeah.
But it's almost so late two years later.
It's almost too late.
Honestly, just me being chaotic and then Yeah.
She's in her own whirlwind.
Honestly, like, not being a good friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
During that fall.
Because I was, like, yeah, in my own world.
So I was not attentive.
So it's interesting how you can be on both sides of the equations with different friendships.
You can be the one to be really distant and not responsive, or you can be on the end, where you're the one trying and they are not.
So you can really empathize with how they're feeling on either end, because you've been on either end.
And you really never know what's happening on the other side.
Because for her, it might have seemed like you were intentionally neglecting her.
Exactly.
But you were just in your own world.
And you had no time to give any other thoughts to anyone else.
I was not good.
I was not a good friend.
Yeah.
And especially during a very volatile, transformed experience that you want to go through with your friends.
I was not there for her for what she needed to.
So you just didn't show up.
I didn't.
Yeah, you didn't show up.
But it wasn't because it wasn't for lack of care.
It wasn't for lack of love.
Yeah.
So was there a friend that got away like the one that got away?
And do you still think about them?
I hate this question.
I'll go first.
Because there is one.
Yeah, go ahead.
This is so crazy because I literally was digging through.
I went home to Dallas last week and I was just digging through my closet, because it's just what you do.
I found a picture of me and the friend that got away and it was from like a party with a photo booth and we were like it's a photo where you are like smiling and your cheeks are squished up to each other and it's just like such a precious friendship and I remember telling her like we're gonna be each other's bridesmaids and it was that close of a friendship.
Yeah, i still think about her all the time.
What happened?
Oh, i don't know.
I still don't know to this day.
Did she not just stop?
We were, we were really good friends for a really long time.
I took her to all these, she was always my plus one to everything And then one day she just stopped texting me.
And we texted every day.
And so at first, I thought she was busy.
So I kind of let her just ignore me for a bit.
But after one week, two weeks, three weeks, I'm like, hello?
Are you there, hello?
And after a few months i kind of exploded because i was fed up.
I was like why aren't you replying to me?
And she just never replied.
And then we did agree to meet up and i thought we were going to talk about it.
But when we met up we just did some small talk and she was like well, i gotta go.
And that was the last time we talked.
I still don't know what happened, or why, or why yeah, so Yeah.
You miss her.
I miss her a lot.
She was really... easy to talk to.
She laughed at all my jokes.
She had great skin.
I still have her location.
Wow.
And she still has yours.
I saw when she got a boyfriend.
We knew each other when we were both single.
I mean, I still am, but...
I saw that she got a boyfriend, and then her location was at boyfriend's.
And I'm like, who is this guy?
And then soon it became husband.
And then it became home.
So it's crazy to see the location name changes.
And I was like, there's so many milestones I missed out on that I thought I would be there for.
And that you talked about being there for.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it feels weird if I stop sharing locations with her.
Because she's going to get the notification.
Yeah, yeah.
She might like watch this.
It's so real.
It's the same thing that happens with breakups too.
Like honestly, it's the same journey of emotions and experiences sometimes.
Like I thought I would be there for that, but I'm not.
And it's like a punch in the gut.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't.
I don't think about them in terms of like they got away, because I think everything in life happens for a reason which is like so cliche and gross.
Yeah, it's healthy.
I know.
Open handed with everything.
But there are friends that I think about all the time.
I'll be chopping vegetables thinking, who have you become?
What are you doing with your life?
What are you thinking about?
Does this still excite you?
Yeah.
I think about like, I wonder, do you still think about me?
Like, do you still like cherish the times that we had together?
That is gut wrenching.
Yeah.
Because there's always things that remind you of them.
Like, oh, they love pears.
And I'm sure there's habits that they have influenced that even you still carry on.
Yeah.
I'm getting emotional.
It's really sad.
It's so sad.
It's really sad.
Shoot.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
Even though you watch from an arm's length, you're like I'm rooting for you, but it just really hurts.
I'm waiting for you, but I want to root for you on the sidelines near you.
I want to give you a hug.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For the one that has gotten away, would you get back together with them?
I feel like we ask each other these questions with like exes, sometimes like if they showed up on your doorstep, would you try again.
But it hits me so much deeper when we're talking about a friend.
Yeah, I think so much time has passed.
It wouldn't even be considered getting back together with them.
It would just be getting to know the new them.
Yes.
You have to create a new friendship because now they have new relationships.
We're in a different stage of life.
Like for me and my friend, it's been...
Gosh, six years, seven years?
I've missed out on an entire life stage of yours.
Who are you now?
You're probably different.
Yeah, totally different.
I don't know.
It's a hard question.
Yeah.
Would you?
I would try.
I would definitely try.
Wow.
I really love this person.
I really love this person so much.
I don't want to cry.
But, like I said, the door is not wide open okay, because I'm still her but the door is always cracked open.
It is a drawer.
Reality is that there would be a lot of trust that would take more time to build and effort that both parties would have to try to put in to build it again.
When you love someone, you love someone.
I don't think that goes away.
And you would rather try and give it a valiant effort than to always wonder.
They wanted to, but you just said no.
And especially when there's so much shared history and intimacy that you know with them and how they're wired, you just I don't know.
I feel like your heart would melt.
I think about, like when a man has told me, like the door is always open for you, and I'm like ugh nasty.
We're not talking about men.
But then I think about like, if a friend had said that to me, like one that I have broken up with, that gets to me.
Yeah, that means the world, because men's work is useless.
But if it's a friend, it's like, I trust that you are still a good person.
I will not discount what our friendship meant to be.
And if you are ready, you can come back.
Yeah.
Anytime.
Anytime.
Honestly.
It hurts.
It hurts.
Like, it would be hard.
What would you lose to try with the person you love?
This is like obviously, a friendship that, like it's not on, didn't end because it was unhealthy.
I think that's a totally different story.
Oh, like if you brought out the worst.
Yes, important distinction um, because sometimes there's friends that did not bring out the best in you and you didn't bring out the best in them, that maybe you should not try yeah yeah, maybe it's not the best friendship, maybe that door needs to be closed, But for the ones that were special, I think you always hold a spot.
For the friends that did not bring out the best in you and that there were breakups for.
Are you still bitter towards them?
Of course.
How dare you leave me?
Like, how could you not want this?
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's not due to like oh, because I'm such a good friend, because I'm such a great person, but it's just like it's a soul to soul thing.
Like, how could you abandon me like this?
Yeah.
How could you just leave me without wanting, without warning?
Like if you decided maybe this is not what you wanted, why couldn't you just tell me that?
Yeah.
Didn't I?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I know for some people they just don't have that capacity.
They don't want to do it.
Even years later, they know they're in the wrong, but it's it's.
It's kind of like when you have known someone for so long but you don't know their name.
And it's like, oh, it's been too long.
I can't ask for your name.
The window of opportunity.
Yeah, the window of opportunity.
The longer time passes is harder for them.
So the question is, are you bitter?
I think.
Yes.
Final answer, yes.
And I will let that just eat me up until I die.
Yeah.
No, same.
Same.
I'm being honest.
Yeah, no, really.
No, really.
It comes out when you're talking about them and you're like I love them so much.
But then also, why did you do that?
They suck.
Yeah.
Why did you do that?
But as I've thought about it more, too, the bitterness... and the hurt is because we loved a lot.
We loved deeply, and that's why every other emotion is stewing around that.
You know what I mean?
The unjustness.
In the situations where I was clearly wronged, then I'm like, ah yeah, I can still be bitter about it.
You fucked up.
That's not on me.
Like, you can live with that.
But it's like, because I've also been on the receiving end.
Like, I've also been the perpetrator of that.
So I'm like, yeah, I really do deserve that.
You know what I mean?
So for those situations, I'm like, yeah, bitch, I'm bitter.
What are you going to do about it?
What do you do about it?
I mean, you don't talk to me, so it doesn't matter.
You don't know.
You know, it's fine.
But I feel satisfaction knowing that I am bitter towards you.
You feel justified.
Yeah.
Because, again, your brain wants to tie up loose ends.
Yeah.
And you want there to be a reason.
And if the reason is they suck, then so be it.
Let's go.
It couldn't be me.
They're just bad at communication.
The narrative has formed and solidified.
No, but if they wanted to be friends again, I probably would.
Yeah, that's the thing.
I'd be like, I've missed you.
Where have you been?
Let me catch you up with all of the years that have passed by.
How is your husband?
You can love someone and be bitter at the same time.
Really, it's true.
It's true, the two things.
It's never yeah true, it's never just clean, okay.
So what would you say to that friend that you comes to mind when you think about friendship breakups?
The one that got away, the one that wronged you whatever choose choose, choose your character, choose from the vegas buffet of many reasons why friendships end.
Oh, this is so difficult.
It depends on which one.
So if I wrong them, I think it would just be like, I'm really sorry.
You didn't deserve that, and I really hope you're thriving without me.
If it was the one where I was wronged, the thing is we were really young, and I get it.
I know why you acted that way.
I wish we could have figured it out but, like I said, everything happens for a reason and I just hope you're doing well.
You wish them well.
I do wish them well, like, truthfully.
That's really good.
Yeah.
But, like, you suck.
No, no, no.
I really hope you don't suck because if you do suck, I'm actually quite sad for you that you suck.
Oh, my God.
I'm sorry you suck.
If you're still operating that way, I hope you're not operating that way anymore.
I hope you're not treating people that way anymore.
Maybe you shouldn't be speaking to these people.
And that, my friends, is why friendship breakups are good.
So you don't be spewing this kind of BS.
What would you guys say?
Oh, gosh.
I would just say, like, I miss you.
And honestly, I really hope you're doing well with your marriage.
Like, you look so happy online.
I wish you the best.
Honestly, I miss you.
And I wish we could have worked out.
And if I did anything wrong.
Please let me know.
Yeah.
Just text me.
You still have my number, I hope.
You have my location.
It's never too late.
Show up at the coffee shop I'm mad at.
If there's anything I can apologize for, immediately I want to apologize.
I want to be the first, well, the only person.
I want to apologize.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, but if you don't tell me, I can't know.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And there's never too much time that has passed, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My door is always ajar for you.
How about you, Jen?
I would say I'm bitter.
I'm mad.
I'm upset that you left.
But the way that people talk about having a separate stomach for dessert, is how I feel about you.
You are the dessert, and I always have a separate stomach for you.
Oh, so sweet.
I know.
Yeah.
I'm going to cry.
I'm going to cry.
So similarly, the door is ajar always, and there's so much love for you.
You know who you are.
You're probably not watching this.
I really hope you do watch this, though.
Has any of this affected your dynamics for other friendships?
Are you extra careful to not press any buttons? in an effort to avoid this happening again.
So kind of going back to what we were saying at the beginning where, like you kind of know if it's not going to work out.
I think, like in the past, younger me, like always wanted to like, find out and be like.
I believe there's more and it's going to work.
So let me try.
But then when it does end up not working, I'm like not surprised because like You're older and wiser.
You have that.
You're older and wiser now.
So now, like, when I sense that, I'm just like, just don't walk that path.
Yeah.
So it's it's different because it's like I have and I've seen it, and it's like I've been the I don't know the naive person who's like I need to see what happens.
And it's like it's not worth it.
If the road forks, the road forks.
You go your separate ways.
You see the terrain and you're like, this looks familiar.
I've been here before.
It has not ended well.
Let me not traverse again.
That's wisdom.
That's growth.
That's maturity.
Yeah, that's growing up.
That's good.
Does it scare you guys in your new friendships?
Well...
I think there was a period of time honestly in the thick, of actually processing a lot of after the waiting.
I remember because our friendship was deepening and you were so scared.
I remember I consistently had to tell you, why are you so scared of me leaving?
I'm not going to leave.
I remember that.
Oh, so your answer is yes.
The answer is yes, for sure.
I think it's like the classic after it ends, then you become jaded and cynical and then you're like whenever anyone says that they love you that way, they're just saying that because last time they just said that too.
But then it took time for me to process and recognize one, that is not true.
Every person is different and it's also unfair to bring a lot of that hurt and things that other people wronged you in into your other relationships and put that on the other person and believe that they are going to do the same thing to you.
I feel like we talk about this in romantic relationships a lot more, but I think it applies even more fully with friendships too.
Trusting, giving your heart fully to the new friendships because your relationship is so different.
It definitely did.
I also think seeing other friends that are in my life now just rally around and ask about it and tend to my heart.
That has been really beautiful too, and seeing The ones that stay, the ones that love, you now treasure those so much more deeply, because it's the ones that stick with you day in and day out, season after season, and take notice of, the ones that do not abandon our faithful.
It almost deepens and makes those feel more special, knowing that it can end.
But these ones have not.
These ones have stayed true.
Yeah.
I think romantic relationship breakups get so much airtime.
But there is a breadth and a vastness to friendship relationships that is not really talked about enough.
And so when you think about the potential of a friendship, whether you're at the beginning or at the end of it, there is so much of that that doesn't really get addressed in media a lot of the times.
Or the hurt, or the highs and the lows, building what that relationship looks like, actually giving that space and talking to it or, like you know, working through those feelings and like giving enough weight to how much it hurts when you do break up, like it hurts more.
It hurts more because they know more of you, more than just the romantic side.
Yeah, and I think you can.
You can never know how any friendship is going to end up, because life is life and people come in and people leave.
I hope I can be best friends with you guys forever.
That is a promise that I really want to keep, but I don't even want to think about the but.
But I know that every single friendship is instrumental in building your character and building you up as a person.
And so you can't expect perfection from friends.
You can't expect them to stay, even if that is your deepest desire.
But you can just enjoy it while it lasts and learn from what you can.
Yeah, knowing the heart longs for forever, but also appreciating and finding that the ones that moment to moment are there with you is more precious than dreaming about and wanting a forever commitment.
It's like, no, they're still here.
And tomorrow, they're still here.
And the day after tomorrow, they're still here.
That's more precious than imagining Forever almost.
It's like every day you get to be with them again.
Because you think about the precious friends you had when you were 14.
And the 14-year-old still exists within you.
And that 14-year-old still has so much love for that one person.
And that's never going to change.
Sometimes I'll think about what if these friendships don't last forever, and then I just remove that thought.
That's what I'm doing right now.
But the thing is, it's always a possibility and I think it's important to say out loud, even though it's like we're going to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen, everything in our power.
But you never know what life throws at you and we're going to try to fight it.
But in the events, knowing the fragility of relationships and then valuing what's in front of you right now, you're able to treat it with the loving care that it deserves.
I feel like that's definitely something that when I was younger, I was more like wide-eyed and idealistic about.
It's like just thinking that inevitably, it's like you're going to be friends forever, because that's obviously what you want, what you desire.
But it's a more like sober-minded view now in adult friendships to know that at any moment life is going to throw away more curveballs, variables.
Everybody gets busy, all that kind of stuff.
So when there is effort from both sides, it just really means more, because the fragility of it and knowing that it's still here almost beckons it for it to feel more weighty and more meaningful, you know.
Yeah.
It feels more precious.
And then if you see any road bumps coming, kind of addressing them far in advance.
One thing that me and Jen have talked about is I've seen some friendships dissipate.
Once The two girls are good friends, but then, once they have kids, the kids fight and then that draws a rift in the friendship that they thought was forever.
It's talking about that now, being like, I don't know what I'm going to be like as a mother.
I don't know what you're going to be like as a mother.
I don't know if that's going to be a difficult point in our relationship.
I'm scared.
Just having that conversation now and it's terrifying, but also helpful to have that conversation when you're not in the midst of the difficulty.
Friendships are so precious and friendship breakups honestly, are more painful and more heart-wrenching sometimes than romantic relationship, because the heart longs for forever.
And when you believe that you're going to be friends forever, you really feel that.
So when it breaks, it's really hard.
But there's a million reasons and dimensions and flavors to why friendships fail.
But there's lots of just like forgiveness for yourself and forgiveness for the other person.
That is important to process and understand and feel the feelings in.
And it's OK.
I feel like, like we've said, friendship breakups aren't talked about enough and not depicted enough, not sung about enough, not shown in movies and TV enough.
But we're here to talk about them and be like, it's heart wrenching.
It exists.
And if you're still hurt now, we feel you.
We really feel you.
It's OK to sit in the hurt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it does make the ones that stay, that stick by you, that are faithful today, through every season, feel even more precious.
So hold on to the ones that are like that.
Treasure your friends.
Treasure right now.
Love, forgive, apologize.
And invite me to your wedding.
Well, that wraps up this episode.
We'll be releasing episodes every week and we would love if you would join us.
And with that, hot pursuit is out.
Bye, thanks for joining us.
