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Hey, Shore Wavers.
Emily Kwong here with Julia Simon from NPR's Climate Desk.
Hey, Julia.
Hey, Emily.
It's so good to be here.
I'm so excited to talk to you because you just got back from COP30, the UN Climate Change Conference, in Belém Brazil, at the edge of the Amazon rainforest.
How was it?
Well, I would say eventful is a good word to describe it.
The conference took place in these big plastic tents.
And the day before the conference was supposed to end, I was on the phone with my editor in the US, Sadie Babbitt.
And then people started running through the tent saying, there's a fire.
Okay, there's really a fire.
Jesus effing Christ, Sadie.
Oh, no.
I know.
I got to move on.
Sadie's telling me to get out of here.
The Brazilians are pretty upset and they speak my language.
Well, what happened?
It seems to have been an electrical issue.
Something caught fire.
There was a huge blaze enveloping part of the tent.
At least a dozen people were treated for smoke inhalation.
Tens of thousands of us were evacuated.
But when I ran out of the tent, the first thing I did was find this guy named Andres Gomez.
Because, Emily, today's podcast, it's not about the fire.
It's about what was supposed to happen just 15 minutes after the fire broke out.
Andres is from Colombia, and he was working with the Colombian government and a group of about 20 other countries to make this big announcement, something that climate experts say promised to be one of the most important things to come out of this conference.
Yikes.
So you guys are trying to reschedule, I'm guessing?
Oh, man.
Today on the show, what almost didn't happen at the climate conference in Brazil.
A fire upends a major announcement about tackling the biggest driver of global warming fossil fuels.
We came to Berlin with a clear goal.
Keep the 1.5 limit, within reach, of course, and align with science.
This is a powerful word, science.
We need to trust science.
Will this announcement happen?
Will it not happen?
Stay with us.
I'm going to stress eat chocolate.
Anyone want to do that?
That would be a lovely idea.
Thank you.
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Okay, Julia.
So before we talk about whether this announcement happens or not, what was on the table at this year's UN Climate Conference called COP30?
Well, quick refresher course.
About 70 of the greenhouse gas emissions heating our planet Emily, they come from burning fossil fuels.
Facts.
Burning coal, oil, and natural gas is the single biggest driver of global warming.
Exactly.
And for the past 30 years, countries have been coming to these UN climate conferences to discuss how to tackle global warming.
But many countries say these conferences they're called COPs do not have nearly enough emphasis on the need to transition away from fossil fuels.
Again, which is the main driver of climate change.
I spoke to Juan Carlos Monterey he's special representative for climate change of Panama about this topic.
Every time that we come to this COP, we try to re-debate science.
We try to avoid talking about fossil fuels.
It's really, really stupid.
It's like trying to deal with a patient that has COVID, but not treating the patient for COVID.
Yeah Emily, it took 28 years for the COP agreement to even mention transitioning away from fossil fuels.
I imagine that's really frustrating for so many countries who come to this conference.
I would say some of the countries I spoke to would say frustrating is an understatement.
Climate change is happening.
And many countries came to Belém explicitly demanding language in the final agreement about a roadmap away from fossil fuels.
In fact many countries like the United Kingdom Mexico, Norway.
They said they didn't want to leave the conference without that fossil fuel roadmap language.
Hmm.
Did they get their roadmap?
No.
No mention of fossil fuels.
Wow.
And so, like we said, many countries are deeply frustrated with this UN process.
It's a process by consensus, Emily.
So every country has to agree to the text of this agreement.
And you have close to 200 countries in the process.
And while Norway and Mexico are oil producers and they want a roadmap off of fossil fuels...
Some other big oil producers, like Saudi Arabia, they do not.
So you have some countries pretty consistently blocking text that mentions fossil fuels.
Interesting.
So this is the dynamic at COP.
Is anyone doing anything about it?
Well, remember that guy we met from the top of the episode, Andres Gomez from Colombia?
Yes.
You found him after the fire.
Exactly.
He works for a group that is developing something new.
I met with Andres that morning before the fire and he told me what was supposed to happen later that day.
I consider this under embargo.
This isn't going to go out until later today.
Famous last words.
I know, right?
The list, yeah, it's very interesting countries like Mexico, for instance.
Andres was showing me on his phone a list of about 20 countries that plan to announce something called the first international conference on the just transition away from fossil fuels, or the Santa Marta conference for short.
What is the Santa Marta Conference?
Well, like we said before, some of those countries that really want this roadmap away from fossil fuels, they're again frustrated with those consensus rules of COP.
Everybody has to agree.
These countries want to take action urgently.
And just like, if you're doing a group project Emily, and there are some people who are really into it and some people who are not so much interested.
These countries, some call them the high ambition countries.
They're like, we want our own space.
We want our own conference to really tackle the phase out of fossil fuels ASAP.
Here's Andres.
We have these high ambition countries, which are 20.
Let's say that we get the same number that we have now.
So we'll have these countries which are convinced that we need to do something really quickly.
And we are going to do that in April.
So this conference in April 2026 that Andres is helping to organize, that will be the first global conference for the phase-out of fossil fuels.
It's in Santa Marta, Colombia, hence the name.
And that's a big deal.
Colombia is an oil, gas, and coal producer.
Here's Irene Velez Torres, Colombia's environment minister.
The idea of the Santa Maria conference is to have this first space in which we are completely clear that the phasing out is necessary, because it's not easy.
No one is saying that it is easy.
But if we don't face the problems, we cannot build the solutions.
Okay, this is fascinating that this new conference has emerged.
Yeah.
I got to ask though, why not just bring this to COP?
I mean.
COP is the place where the world came together around the Paris Agreement.
Around 190 countries agreed to try to limit warming to 15 degrees Celsius.
So why can't countries just, you know, stick to that?
I mean, it's an important question.
And in the Paris Agreement, countries did agree to limit warming and cut their emissions.
But the thing about the Paris Agreement Emily, is that it doesn't specify the specific steps countries will take.
And Here's Nikki Rice.
She's climate and energy director at the Center for International Environmental Law.
The existing framework, the Paris Agreement.
It doesn't contain a step-by-step playbook for how we're going to combat climate change or phase out fossil fuels.
Also, it turns out, the pledges that countries are making for the Paris Agreement.
They're not enough to limit warming to 15 degrees Celsius.
A new UN report finds that right now, countries are pursuing policies that would cut emissions by just 12 by 2035.
What scientists say countries need to do is cut emissions in half. by 2035.
Yeah.
Okay.
So how does the Santa Marta conference intend to be different?
They tell me they're still nailing down the official agenda, but the big conversation topic is how to transition away from fossil fuels in an equitable way.
So globally, there are still lots of subsidies for the oil, gas, and coal industries.
One thing that organizers tell me that they'll probably be discussing is how to redirect that money away from oil, gas and coal and towards helping countries pay for things like more renewable energy and batteries.
Also, there are tens of millions of people who work in the fossil fuel industries, people who work in coal mines and people who work on drilling rigs.
These organizers say countries are going to have to find a way to get these people new jobs in an equitable and fair way.
Yeah.
I mean, it sounds like these would be concrete measures to help countries actually deliver on the goals of the Paris Agreement.
Well, that's the goal, right, is to make the transition away from fossil fuels really happen.
Sophie Hermans is Minister of Climate Policy and Green Growth of the Netherlands.
The Netherlands is co-hosting this new conference with the Colombian government.
And the minister says the Santa Marta conference is complementary. to what they promised in Paris.
In Paris 10 years ago, we all said, OK, we have this ambition.
But after you have said you have the ambition, you also have to come to action.
And that's what we are doing now.
But Emily, there is one other thing that they plan to discuss in Santa Marta in the spring.
And that is something called the Fossil Fuel Treaty.
Ooh, what is the Fossil Fuel Treaty?
It is an initiative to make a legally binding treaty for a just transition to phase out fossil fuels.
So 18 countries are already signed on, including Colombia Cambodia, also a number of small island nations like Tuvalu, Vanuatu.
A number of big cities, Chicago, London, Kolkata.
And this is the group that Andres works for.
Nikki Reich, the lawyer we spoke to, advises them in her role at the Center for International Environmental Law.
The hope is that in Santa Marta they will get the ball rolling for another conference to begin this treaty writing process.
The ultimate goal being to make this legally binding document that would commit countries to transition away from fossil fuels.
This is a very, very big deal.
This is Jessica Green, political science professor at University of Toronto.
She thinks this Santa Marta conference and this potential fossil fuel treaty represent an inflection point for global climate politics.
Of course, it remains to be seen what they will accomplish together.
But this is something that academics have been talking about for a long time is that we need Sort of smaller groups of countries, coalitions of the willing to forge ahead, because the laggards are not willing to get with the program.
And by the way, we reached out to the American Petroleum Institute or API about the conference.
The API is the biggest oil and gas trade association in the U.S. with offices around the world.
ABI spokesperson Charlotte Law said in an email quote global energy demand is surging and quote ideological debates about eliminating single energy sources are frozen in the past and distract from the real work ahead innovating to deliver the energy the world needs with a smaller environmental footprint.
OK, good to know.
So back to this conference.
Did Andres and everyone get to announce what they wanted to say at COP given the fire?
Well, we were all evacuated after the fire.
We weren't sure what would happen.
But the next morning, we all gathered in the press conference room.
Thank you very much for being here.
And then Colombian Environment Minister Irene Velez Torres.
She got on stage flanked by about a dozen other country representatives and made this announcement
This declaration is grounded in a simple scientific truth.
Fossil fuels are the primary driver of climate crisis.
For that reason, the government of Colombia, in alliance with the government of the Netherlands, announces today the first international conference on just transition away from fossil fuels.
This conference.
I looked over at Andres a few times during the press conference and he looked like he was tearing up.
I caught up with him after.
Andres!
That was just so great.
I saw you.
Were you tearing up?
Yeah, almost.
That was so moving and, I don't know, like very inspiring.
Like the perfect end for a cup that wasn't promising anything.
Probably this would be the most important outcome of this cup.
And Emily, some climate experts agree with him.
The fact that this conference announced the establishment of another conference to phase out fossil fuels.
That may end up being one of the most important things to come out of this COP.
I'm guessing you will be there in Santa Marta in April to cover it.
You know it.
I will be there to cover it 100% de Colombia pa'l mundo, pa' pa'.
From Colombia for the world, yes.
Julia, thank you so much for coming on shortwave.
Thank you, Emily.
If you liked this episode, follow us on the NPR app or your preferred podcasting platform.
This episode was produced by Hannah Chin.
It was edited by Sadie Babitz and our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez.
Tyler Jones checked the facts.
Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer.
Beth Donovan is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy.
I'm Emily Kwong.
Thank you for listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.
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