Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Yang.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Gao Junya in the studio.
Junya, when you're not on Roundtable, where can folks find you?
I've been producing a podcast called China Africa Talk.
Actually, it's also because I've I've been, I worked in Africa as a correspondent for over five years, and I have a passion for China -Africa related stories.
And you will find me on CGTN radio website.
It's updated weekly.
Oh, weekly? Weekly, and the latest episode will be out, and we're focusing on this ongoing China supply chain forum.
All right. Okay, well, you know where to find Jinya coming up.
For all the hard -working folks out there, you've earned that vacation time fair and square.
But when it finally comes, do you take it with a gilt?
In the US, vacation gilt is real and increasingly common. So, what's driving this mindset?
Following that, ever felt motion sickness in a moving car or boat?
Turns out, your smartphone might be onto a core.
more it's more like a cure let's put it that way a few barely noticeable dots dancing along your screen could help your stomach from flipping sounds a bit futuristic huh it's already here and we discuss the science behind it and do stick around till the end we'll save a moment of joy for you in roundtable's happy place our podcast listeners can find us at roundtable china on your your favorite podcast platform.
Got a question worth exploring?
We are game. Send it over to roundtablepodcast .qq .com.
Emails are fine, but bonus points for voice memos.
They are a listener's favorite.
Now let's switch gears.
Ever yearned for a real vacation only to feel emotionally chained to your desk?
You're not not alone.
This tug of war between needing rest and feeling unable to unplug is surprisingly common. Now reported in the American workforce, vacation guilt is hardly an American paradox.
In China, for some of us, we're feeling it too.
Let's explore what's fueling this modern workplace dilemma and what it means for our well -being.
Can you provide some stats on on the percentage of American workers that don't use their vacation or feel guilty about it?
Yeah. Before that, let's just kind of talk about how the law works in the United States.
So Americans are not guaranteed any paid vacation time by federal law.
It's called the Fair Labor Standards Act, and it established basic worker rights, but it doesn't mandate paid holiday holiday or paid sick leave or things like that, or even the number of holiday days that you will get.
That's from the Brookings Institute.
Some cities, some states, they have enacted laws providing for paid sick leave, but there's no nationwide guarantee of paid time off for a vacation or for personal use.
That's from the Center for American Progress.
Now, that may lead you to believe, what?
Americans get zero holidays throughout the year?
No, that's not true.
Nationally, the average American gets about 10 vacation days.
They get all public holidays after a year of service.
But when it's left up to businesses, that's when the average American worker will get another 11 days of paid vacation in their first year at a company.
This is the United States.
We'll talk about Europe maybe in a little while.
But you asked me for some statistics.
And there are a lot of statistics here, so bear with me.
You asked me for the statistics on the percentage of American workers that don't use their vacation or feel guilty about it.
All right, there was a 2024 survey done by Solitaire, and that showed that 47 % of Americans, they left some paid time off or PTO unused.
So 47 % of workers didn't use all of their holidays.
Similarly, there was a 2023 survey by Pew Research, and they found that 46 % of workers who received paid time off, they take less than is offered.
And then there was another comprehensive survey that found that nearly 62 % of U .S. workers don't use all of their PTO, their paid time off, a trend that has nearly doubled in the four years leading up to 2024.
The statistics there vary a little bit, but they're also very similar and it gives you a general idea.
American workers, generally speaking, a lot of them do not take all of their paid vacation time.
Yeah. And also the stats that you provided, some of them happened or most of them happened during COVID, the pandemic.
Or post -COVID. Yeah.
Yeah. And very interesting, you know, because I think for a lot of us, when we were half working home, half working at work, and then it kind of disrupted people's vacation cycles as well and a lot of other things.
And back to America, even when they do use these paid annual day paid leave days off, they are feeling worried or guilty.
Yeah, they feel guilty about it.
There was another study that found that one in five respondents experienced what they call vacation guilt, and it made them reconsider their vacation plans.
plans. Fifty two percent of U .S. workers worry about work while while they are actually on their vacation.
So the question is, why?
Well, the worries often stems from concerns about falling behind.
Forty nine percent said that falling behind in their work so that when they return to the office, they'll have a pile on their desk or they feel bad about colleagues taking on additional work in their absence 43 percent answered that way but here's the most surprising one to me this this is a little bit older the statistic is a little bit older it's from 2017 but almost half 49 percent of workers reported feeling vacation shame meaning they were made to feel shame or guilt by their co -workers for actually taking a vacation this part i don't understand if we're all co -workers you take your time
off i cover for you but when i take time off you cover for me we scratch each other's backs and then the employer is always the winner i don't understand why you would feel bad about it so yeah why do they feel the guilt well i think it's because of this it goes back to the statistics we just talked about right so if they are not all if If all the company employees are not using all of their paid vacation time, but one person is, then that person is going to be the black sheep in the office.
Right. And people will say, oh, you're you're you're going on your vacation.
Wow. None of us hour.
Wow. Have a great time.
And that's going to make you feel stressed and worried when you're on vacation.
And maybe because he's giving extra work to some some certain colleagues of his.
Right. So, you know, they have to finish works beyond their own work during a certain time.
That's why, you know, the guy who's been taking vacation will feel a little bit shamed.
So, well, here in China, we're no strangers to the, they call it hustle culture in the U .S. For us, we have other names for the grueling work schedule of a lot of people.
It depends on your sector.
um why do what americans feel this guilt you mentioned some but does this have a lot uh to do with the sort of the workplace culture there was a story on on yahoo not long ago um that was copied by some other media outlets that talked about workplace culture of martyrdom and what that means is you sacrifice yourself yeah you glorify long working hours and you glorify your constant availability and that makes taking time off feel like a weakness somehow like if you're the person who's going to leave the company for a week or two like that's one of your work weaknesses as an employee also a lack
of you're showing potentially a lack of dedication and you're also pressuring the other employees to make up for your absence but also you feel that You feel that when you're absent, you still feel in your mind that pressure to be on as an employee.
That's one of the reasons.
Again, another reason I mentioned the overwhelming workloads when they come back.
But I think another thing that we need to discuss here is economic insecurity and job market pressure.
I think that that leads to a reluctance to disconnect.
It's a really competitive environment.
And some feel that if they take a full vacation, then that might make them feel or seem less committed to their job.
And if they seem less committed to their job, they may be viewed as dispensable by their company.
So if that's in their mind, oh, wait, if I take my vacation, that's going to make me seem lazy.
That's going to make me seem like I don't care about the success of the company.
My co -workers aren't going to like this.
My boss isn't going to like this.
You know what? You know what?
You know what? I'm just going to skip my vacation this year.
I'm only going to take three days instead of the paid seven days.
This does sound kind of familiar.
It's hardly an American thing.
What about here in China and elsewhere?
Well, here in China, a media outlet once launched an online poll asking, do you feel ashamed asking for time off?
And among nearly 40 ,000 participants, about 45 % said, yes, I did get anxiety every time I ask.
And around 25 % said, it depends on my boss and the workplace atmosphere.
So that's a lot. 45%, nearly half of them, right?
Right. Well, 40, 45 percent plus the other 20 some percent.
Yeah. So add it all up.
That's more than 60 percent of people don't feel comfortable simply asking for the time off that they deserve.
Yeah. And I read some of the comments for the survey.
A couple of people said that because when you need to apply for your paid annual leave days and being a responsible colleague, colleague, you'll need to let your team know.
And then it's going through the application when, you know, different pairs of eyes are going to look at that slip of paper and you just feel shame because they all need to okay it before you can take the time off and maybe you don't get the okay and then you just feel really bad about yourself.
You feel exposed, right?
Because so many people have seen your request. Oh, Steve's taking three days off next week.
Yeah, right. See you later.
Yeah, again, it's happening in the United States.
It's happening in China, obviously, if we take those statistics into consideration.
Yes. And can we also look at some of the top reasons why Chinese people feel this is a bit scary, maybe?
One thing first comes to mind is some people are held back by the fear of judgment.
Well, you know, they describe themselves as having a model student mentality that is constantly overthinking and internalizing pressure, unable to say no, and falling into patterns of self -blame.
And unconsciously, you know, they create this relentless workhorse image for themselves.
And many people, they just worry that taking leave will tarnish their perfect employee loyi persona i think it's just like you know the u .s picture does that go back to seems a little bit different though because i'm wondering does this go back to school days maybe here in china where maybe in middle school high school i don't know you feel that pressure to be because somehow gaokao related you feel pressured to be on all the time you feel the pressure to be perfect i think for this is a problem not exactly like that but maybe there are similar roots just in in China I think it often takes the worker
years maybe a decade of work in the workforce to realize that you don't need to behave or adhere to the perfect student mentality you're not scoring like trying to score 100 out of 100 anymore and it's not like your boss is the teacher and who you try Try everything to please them, to make them like you.
That's what I would call the good student mentality.
And it confines us, constrains us in so many ways because in the workforce, there's no one standardized test answer for anything.
This is real life. This is workplace.
And then, you know, breaking those rules and really flourishing and trying to achieve who you are.
And it's not necessarily, you know, always about a promotion or delivering the best. What is even the best, you know, out of a work project anyway.
So yeah, I think it's interesting, like how we think about this, how we approach it and how we should, in my opinion, break away from these kind of ideals.
I think it's pretty well established, though, that once you've earned a reputation with your co -workers or with your management, then it's hard to change that perception.
interception so if you are the only one or maybe of a of a few people on your team if you're the only one who's taking the full paid vacation time you're in your mind you're thinking i'm going to earn the reputation of the things i mentioned before i'm not committed to my job i'm the lazy one on this team.
If the management, if the managers also aren't taking their full paid vacation time, but you as an employee are, and you earn that reputation, it's going to be very, very challenging to change that reputation.
And I'm sure that plays a key role in terms of why employees are so reluctant to use all of their time.
Happens in Japan as well.
There was a survey in 2023, they found that only 19, almost 19 % of Japanese workers took all of their paid annual leave, 80 % left some days unused.
And then to take it even a step further, and I've seen this within my own family, they did a report from Canada, the UK and the US.
And from those regions, they found that 70 % of people, while they're on vacation, they work while they're on vacation too.
And that's something Junya does as well.
Yeah, it's the same picture, you know, here to me, because I think, in the first three years, while I was working here, you know, I, you know, I'm just an editor, you know, a journalist, I finished my stories in office, and I just say goodbye to my work, I can enjoy my leisure time.
But I think, after those years, now I've been here for over 10 years.
And now, like I said, I've been producing this podcast, a certain podcast. so even if I'm on leave I have to bring my own work with me even if you know I'm enjoying myself let's say maybe in northern Europe but I have to polish the questions or looking for certain guests to join our discussion and so it's just you know I can't enjoy a pure vacation and I can't believe those people because I think for me in the first 10 years I can only have five day yearly leave it's for us right for us it's just five day is from the second year to the tenth year in china if you are contracted i mean if you're
a worker who signs the contract protected by law then you have five precious days of paid annual leave take it yeah and all the national holidays would be on top of that as well right that is true right right yeah and then well to be more specific and then And for the 10th to the 20th year, you enjoy 10 days of paid annual leave. And once you hit the big 20th anniversary of joining the workforce and contributing to the pension fund, you get 15 days of paid annual leave. And that's it.
And that's the maximum.
Yes. That's where you max out.
Yeah. Yeah. So it is something that is on every worker's mind, in my opinion, and legitimately so.
What are the consequences of this vacation deprivation for individuals and companies?
Yeah. I mean, if you were feeling burnt out before your vacation, this is only going to add to those feelings of burnout because you're not getting the rest and it's going to add to those feelings of stress.
And then when you come back to work, it could lead to even further reduced productivity or a decline in your creativity.
That level of stress and that level of overwork, if you're working on your vacation, sorry, Junior, not to talk about you specifically, it could negatively impact a person's health physically, mentally, and companies can can experience lower job satisfaction from their employees.
And also, this would be a very bad thing, higher employee turnover because their employees get burnt out, they're overworked, they're overstressed, they're not happy, and they could leave their job.
Yeah, and not all companies are all that thoughtful.
Some companies, it depends on the situation.
If they feel that there's always going to be somebody at the door waiting for a job, then, well, that's when the law is really important to come in to protect the workers' rights, but they feel, the companies feel like, yeah, sure, I can maybe not give out all the benefits unless they're being supervised or, you know, washed, so to speak.
And it's one thing to recognize vacation guilt, but another to break break free from it.
If the system makes us feel guilty for resting, what can we do?
How do we start to take the time we earned without the emotional weight?
And if you don't feel this emotional weight, good for you.
Yeah, if you don't, then you're not in the group that we're talking about.
But if you do, then one of the tips is to delegate.
And this would be to in your planning, right?
You're planning ahead for your vacation.
If you can delegate, you said, with your co -workers, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
So make it clear to your co -workers, I need you to help me with these things when I'm gone.
But listen, when you go, I'm going to be here for you, and I'm going to be doing those things for you too.
So this is reciprocal, right?
So that's one thing you can do.
That'll free up your mind a little bit.
it. Another one is to set clear boundaries.
Make it known to your clients that you are unavailable.
You can set an out -of -office email, right?
I've received many of these emails during summertime.
Have you? Yeah, it's frustrating to see those emails when you're trying to get some work done with someone, isn't it?
But you can do that.
You can also leave instructions.
In case of emergency, emergency contact this person here is their email here is their telephone number make sure you tell that person beforehand so they don't get slammed with some unexpected phone calls or emails but what you're doing there is you're setting some boundaries uh for yourself and you're letting people know that this time is my time and that will allow you to focus on the real benefits of being away which is reconnecting with yourself or your loved ones your family members your friends whoever you're traveling or away with and it allows you to experience all those health perks that are supposed
to come the recharging the resetting um from a vacation yeah here can i just interject that just brings us back brings me back so many memories and i've learned so much from our european colleagues or um you know partners who i've conversed via email because because let's face it, here in China, most people just use WeChat even for work.
Anyhow, so many, oh, I'm happily on vacation.
Not going to talk to you, see you when I come back, kind of emails in various tones.
And also, we work with a whole bunch of international co -workers from different backgrounds, and they've taught me a lot in this sense, too.
too. Many times they show me that this is my vacation time and I'm taking it no matter what and you should too and none of us should feel bad about it and up you go, off you leave. And I think that's really set a great example and inspired me and a lot of our Chinese co -workers a lot.
I think part of it might come from our mindset about work in the first place, right?
I read or I heard somewhere and maybe I even saw this in a movie.
I don't remember. But it was talking about, you know, if you ask an American or Canadian or Korean or maybe someone from China.
So tell me about yourself.
The first answer will be what their job is.
So tell me about yourself.
Well, I'm a radio announcer.
I'm on a podcast. podcast. If you ask someone from Europe, France was the example.
And they said, tell me about yourself.
The answer will not be related to work at all.
The answer will be, I enjoy a nice glass of wine in the evening.
I like reading books.
I like going for walks along the river.
They tell you about themselves as a person rather than something created or connected to their work.
work. I think in a lot of countries, we are too closely defined as a person by our job.
And I think that's what makes this kind of topic very difficult for people.
I think one of the problems for us Chinese is we've been working with via WeChat, right, to communicating, you know, even for work.
So I've seen people who's been, like, change their their WeChat account name into a small notice, like I've been taking a break.
But they are still being at certain groups and they have to reply the messages of different work assignments.
So it's annoying. I think they can't just get rid of it.
Yeah, you're on vacation and you get some kind of message that says, what's the password to the computer again?
I've gotten that before.
for what's the password to our uh you know like the the account on the cloud where you store a lot of like work related stuff yeah and you're in europe somewhere and i nicely uh reply but there are other words flying in my head of course rest isn't a reward it is a right it's time for workers all around the world to stand together and start protecting our time off together coming up.
Did you know there are little dots shown on your smartphone which can beat motion sickness?
We discuss right after this break.
Looking for passion?
How about fiery debate?
Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the the goal.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Yang.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherley and Gao Junya in the studio.
Ever tried texting in a moving car, only end up dizzy and queasy?
You're not alone, and now your smartphone might have a built -in trick to help.
Meet the tiny dots quietly working at the edge of your screen to bring your senses back in sync.
How do these these small dots on your smartphone prevent motion sickness, and you need to activate them to show up to help.
Yes, these small dots refer to a software feature introduced by Apple called Vehicle Motion Cues on iOS and iPadOS designed to help save off motion sickness when you're looking at your phone while in a moving vehicle.
When this feature is active, your iPhone or iPad detects the subtle movements of the vehicle, and then it displays small dots along the edges of your screen that move in sync with the car.
So users will have the option to turn this feature on or off in their device settings.
Yeah, so if you look at your screen, you'll see little black circles, right?
I saw the three on the left and three on the right.
I'm not sure if they're on the top or the bottom as well.
But they counter the motion of your car, as Junio said.
So if the car turns right, the dots will go to the left on your screen.
If the car goes left, they will go to the right.
If the car accelerates, the dots go down.
And if the car breaks, they go up.
And it's not just Apple.
You can find this on domestic brands here too.
Honor, like Honor, the 300 series, they have similar features that can be turned off, turn on and turn off in their accessibility settings.
So what's the science behind the small dots preventing motion sickness?
Of course, there is scientific principle behind this.
The core principle behind it is to trick your brain into synchronizing your stable handheld and the moving surroundings.
That means you know motion sickness often occurs due to a conflict between what your eyes see and what your body's inner ear senses.
For example, if you're in a car looking at a stationary phone screen and your eyes just tell your brain that you're still, but your inner ear detects the movement of the car.
This disconnect can cause symptoms like nausea and discomfort.
And by displaying the small dots that move with the car's motion, this feature will help to visually reconcile the disconnect connect and align with the visual information with the physical sensations of movements and preventing motion sickness yeah it helps your eyes and your body get back on the same beat so so to speak brings a little bit of harmony back to your senses so that you don't feel sick I and scientists say researchers say that motion sickness isn't just for some group of people some groups of people and not others it's going to happen to everybody at some point in their lives but But I
wanted to know, do these dots work, or do they not?
And I read a blog post from one individual who tested out the theory, and for her, she said no, it didn't work for her.
And doctors have talked about this as well.
Someone involved said, our research and that of many others has shown that there are large individual differences when it comes to motion sickness, as well as large individual differences in the effectiveness of sickness countermeasures.
What that means is these types of tools, these dots will work for some people and they may not work for other people.
What are some of the other ways that can help us to prevent motion sickness then?
I don't know if you've heard of this.
My mom, she got serious car sickness and what her secret is she usually eats ginger, a piece of ginger to help her.
I don't know. I think there was certain scientific proof behind that.
And sometimes she also drinks vinegar.
It also helps. I don't know.
What a meal. Yeah. It sounds like it would induce sickness, not prevent it.
Besides those folk therapies, there are certain scientific ones.
One is 100 hertz audio therapy.
And a study just said that this is a simple and effective method.
Listening to 100 hertz pure audio for just one minute before getting into the car can regulate vestibular function and significantly reduce motion sickness symptoms. Yeah, that was done from Nagoya University.
I listened to, because I was curious, 100 hertz audio for one minute before the show, and I got bored.
I didn't make it to one minute.
it i made it to about 25 seconds but just like that and just listen to that and they say do that before you get in the car and that could help you out oh now you know and coming up next on today's show welcome to the happiest corner on the airwaves round table's happy place delivery delivery delivery what is it happiness from round table Junya, make us happy with your happy place, please.
I think we've all heard of this world supermarkets, right?
The world capital of small commodities.
Yiwu. Yes, of course.
I think it's a paradise for many people and I've never been to it.
And last month I had this chance to visit Yiwu and because I was there to cover two stories of two African businessmen who's been based there for decades.
and apparently, you know, it's just a new world for me to discover.
Those two businessmen, although they are just doing trade between China and Africa, small commodities, but guess what?
You know, they are billionaires.
They are both billionaires.
It's just a lot of money to make.
Is this their happy place or your happy place?
My happy place is, you know, I think there are so many business opportunities there.
And I don't know, maybe one day I think I can find one And I don't know, maybe join them for the Delinear Club Yeah, well, Junya has a plan B I'm very happy for you Yeah, and my happy place involves one female comedian Known on stage as Fang Zhuzhen from Linyi, Shandong Province Or Director Fang She's gone viral last week She was on The King of Comedy stand -up season 2 and her set blew the roof off.
Millions of audiences online and offline laughed just as hard as we cried.
She ended her set with a line that really stayed with so many of us.
April 8th, 2025. Nothing happened.
I had a calm, happy day.
Sounds simple, right?
But it came after 30 years in an abusive marriage in rural China.
Years of domestic violence, looking after ailing parents -in -law, doing everything just to survive.
No one ever remembered her birthday, so she gave herself a new one that day.
I just mentioned the date she joined a stand -up comedy agency.
agency through her jerk through her jokes she gives voice to the unspoken truths of countless rural Chinese women women who have long lived in the shadows unseen and unheard and 2025 has been called a breakout year for women in stand -up comedy in China because there are so many more of them from grassroots up.
And their stories carry weight and shed a different kind of light than urban peers, urban people's take on a lot of things.
And I don't mean to make this division, but it's a brand new perspective for so many Chinese people to see what our compatriots, our fellow sisters, mothers, friends, they are going through.
And many see this as progress in gender equality.
And yet, this rise doesn't necessarily mean society is more equal.
Feminist scholars such as Judith Butler and Susan Faludi in the book Stifled have noted that visibility often comes when old patriarchal systems are in disruption, for example, during war, economic downturns, or rapid technological change.
In those moments, women step into the spotlight.
We see in recent years more female directors, designers, stand -up comedian are being seen, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the stage has been shared.
But because the ground underneath is falling apart and those with power and resources and who benefit from the traditional patriarchal society, they move into the upcoming prosperous sectors.
Visibility in this sense can can be a sense of disruption or decline, not progress itself.
And that is my nuanced happy place who said it has to be straight up happy.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
Thank you so much, Steve Hatherly and Junyao for joining the discussion.
I'm He Young. We'll see you next time.
