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Thank you. I am Allison Beard. And I am also an Ignatius and this is the HBO idea test. So Adi, you and I have something in common about our working lives that I think makes us pretty lucky.
All right, that sounds exciting, maybe.
What is that? OK. So we both have worked for only three organizations over the course of our careers.
And I've been at HBR for 15 years now, which I think is similar to you.
Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of old school.
I've had three jobs.
I was at each for 12 years or more.
I've been at HBR for 16 and counting.
Yeah, you know. I think the average tenure for US workers as of January 2024 is something like just under four years.
So people are moving around a lot, and a lot of times, it's not because they want to.
It's because their jobs have been outsourced.
It's because their company is downsizing.
It's because their industry is transforming.
And that's a really tough position to be in.
Yeah, look, and this is the type of problem we can help with.
You know, you think about your options.
You fight to keep your job.
Do you reposition your resume for different roles?
You try to anticipate what future job market will want.
do you think can do a deep bit of despair?
We don't recommend the latter option.
Definitely not. And so that's why we wanted to bring in Whitney Johnson.
She's the CEO of Disruption Advisors.
She's got a lot of studies and research and counseling people on what to do when you feel that the world is changing around you and you need to adapt to fit.
Her view is that we're all gonna face career setbacks at some point in our lives.
And so she wants to give us the tools that we need to sort of de -stress, regain focus, reset, and move forward. So let's get to it.
Here is my conversation with Whitney Johnson, CEO of Disruption Advisors.
Hi Whitney, hello, Allison, how are you?
Let's start with the immediate aftermath of an unexpected job loss or demotion.
Is there anything that you recommend people do in the first hours or days to set themselves up for a success later?
The first thing is just name what you're feeling when you lose a job.
B is precise as you can.
When you name something that you're feeling, you're going to be able to control it.
And this is very difficult to do because career disruption can oftentimes trigger negative core beliefs.
Like I'm not enough.
And so just the ability to say something like I'm feeling anxious about this career disruption.
Instead of unnamed anxiety, there's a Morifice Threat that you can't do anything about.
You now have a defined challenge that you can address strategically and consciously.
So that's the very first thing.
That's the emotional side of dealing with disruption.
But then you go to the functional piece.
Take time to reflect.
What did I learn? Even if you did lose your job, there are things that you learned in the course of being there.
And so think about during that particular time, what new skills did you learn?
How have you increased your capacity to work with others?
Or did you learn that you need to increase your capacity to work with others?
Just take time to mark the moment of what you learned?
Then you can go to, what are the constraints that I'm going to have?
You may need to go into the bathroom and cry, or into your bathroom, in your house and cry, and just be able to name that.
It's very difficult.
I think, give yourself grace, because you're probably not going to handle it very well, and understand that.
To the extent that you can, if your boss has done a good job, it won't come as a super big surprise to you.
But if it does, the more you can just stay curious and just try to understand, help me understand what's happening?
Why is this happening?
And get as much information as you possibly can.
But I think the most important thing is just to allow yourself to feel, how the feeling that you're having.
And once you get through that visceral emotional reaction and maybe come to a place of acceptance that this is happening whether I like it or not, what do you do to them ready yourself for a job search suddenly?
So, again, after you've had that opportunity to metabolize what's happened, you want to, like I started to say, take some time to reflect, and just recognize even though you lost a job and it's going to be very easy to have this experience of this was terrible, you do want to recognize that there are lots of things that you learned and lots of experiences that you had.
You developed skills, you developed as a leader and so give yourself an opportunity to mark this moment, and celebrate what you've done.
From there, then you can start to think about what are my constraints that I have going forward. How much financial runway do you have?
How quickly do you need to find a job?
Where do you want to live?
Do you want to continue to live where you're living?
Do you want to remote job?
Do you want a hybrid job?
What are some of those non -negotiables as you think about what comes next?
You then want to very quickly audit some of your achievements.
And I would hope that you've been doing that all along.
So every time someone gives you a compliment of something you've done well, write it down, say that email, have a file folder so that you can bolster yourself in this point where you're feeling probably a little bit emotionally fragile and can't remember anything good that you've ever done ever.
And then you want to be able to think about what are the projects that people routinely asked you to work on and then start to dream about what you might do differently.
You then, importantly, and again this is in this succeeding probably days and weeks while you're recovering, is to think about your ecosystem and network, what you've already done, what you know, how to do, what you're thinking of doing next, and then how some conversations with people you trust?
So let me give you an example.
I had someone who used to work for us, then went to MBA school, now is in her first sort of post - MBA job, and she's on maternity leave, and she's thinking about what she wants to do next and said, I'm thinking about doing X, it's a pivot.
I think this would fit for me, what do you think?
So getting my feedback, not asking for a job, but getting my feedback and I was able to say to her, you know what?
This makes sense to me.
I think this is consistent with what I see your strengths are.
And then perhaps the most important thing I would do is take all of that feedback you've gotten, the audit you've done, your strengths, and looking at your current resume thinking, and then going to AI and say, here are all my strengths.
Look at this. Analyze this.
You're a career development expert.
What do you think might be interesting for me to do next?
And use technology to help you dream about what might be possible.
It would be great if AI could scrape the internet and actually find job posting for you now, but maybe you go to LinkedIn for that.
Yeah. I think well, and I think what would be interesting is that you could absolutely go to LinkedIn.
So once you get that information, you can start looking through LinkedIn and just say, okay, you'd be a great project manager.
See kind of project manager opportunities are out there, and then you can take it a step further and you can say, okay here's the profile of a project manager on LinkedIn.
Take my resume, take all my strengths and repurpose it for that project manager LinkedIn profile so that I can start to see myself in that new role or opportunity.
I love this use of technology to help end job searches.
So if you who know you need to move on.
Do you counsel people to find that new opportunity pretty quickly or is it better to be more deliberate even if it means a lot more uncertainty and probably tighter finances?
You know Alison, I think it really depends.
The biggest challenge that you have when you lose a job, it gets in your head.
It really gets in your head.
There is a massive, for anybody who's ever been laid off, you know that they're psychologically you have to manage that.
The more methodically you can be as we just described, the better but you also at the same time need to be very cognizant, vigilant around your head game and be thinking about and be aware of what limiting beliefs are coming up.
So this is probably more than any other time you may need to go to therapy.
You need to go back to a coach in order to say, okay, I know how to do the work of looking for a job what I might need to do next.
But how do I keep my head in a place in a space where people will want to hire me, and they won't sense that on desperate?
Yeah. So, there is that cliche that it's much easier to find a new job when you're still in your old job.
And if that's the case, how do you break through, especially when it might be a time that lots of people have been laid off with your same skills?
So, I think that once you're managing the emotional aspect of this, which we've addressed, one of the ways that you're going to break through, and an expression that I frequently find myself using is surprise and delight.
So, you and I have both had experiences where people come say to us, I want to work for you, Allison, or I want to work for you, Whitney.
And here are all the reasons why this job would be amazing for me.
If you can instead say, alright, here are my skills.
Here's what I do well, here's the problem that you are trying to solve, here's how I can help you solve it, here's what I bring to you and you're willing to act as if you're already on the job, and surprised into light people, you're going to break through every day of the week.
Because most people don't do that, and when you do it from that place, it's not a place of desperation.
It's a place of confidence.
It's a place of, I have something to offer that would be very valuable to you and here's what it would look like.
Yeah, what about breaking through that initial resume screen that now maybe is done by AI?
Is that about activating your network?
I never, ever, ever recommend someone try to get a job through an initial resume screening.
I think it's just very tough, you have to figure out the algorithm and how to gain the system and I think people probably do get jobs that way.
Games it is a game thrown a game of throws probably.
I do think that you're much better off, that's where you're going to activate your network and which goes into the question of, do you have a network to activate?
And if you don't, how do you get one quickly?
I think you start with where you are.
everybody has some kind of network.
And so how do you start with where you are, and have that conversation.
And say, here's what I'm trying to do.
What do you think? Do you know anybody that I could talk to and start there?
Yeah, even if it's your former colleagues who have enjoyed working with you and feel bad that they've kept their job and you've been laid off?
How do you counsel people who find that their disruption is really dragging on and then starting and to feel just more and more stressed about it so that initial emotional response that they've calmed down, the further it goes, the more it comes back.
I ask because I've had friends in the situation and it's not just the person who's lost their job, it's their parents and their spouses and even their kids.
You know, it filters down and it becomes really tense.
For everybody because they're worried about them and then possibly money becomes an issue.
Yeah. So I would say there's a dual track here, Alison.
There's the one track and I know I keep talking about the emotional aspect of it but I think that this is so vitally important and we don't think about it and we don't talk about it enough.
That when you have lost your job and you're looking for a new one and it's dragging on and on and on I think sometimes that is trying to get your attention that you need to pivot.
So I think, in order to manage that, I know from my own experience you need a coach or you need a therapist. There are things that you need to do in order to be able to manage the process, from there.
I would say, when it's dragging on and on, there's a product market fit.
So, in terms of what you want to do and what you're trying to get done and it's not working, sometimes you're much better off saying, okay, if this isn't working, the market's giving information, what information is it giving me?
It may be that there aren't any jobs, it may be that actually what I'm best at isn't a fit for what opportunities I'm looking at.
So be willing to say, okay, some of this is outside of my control, but what's within my control?
What is the market telling me, and maybe I need to pivot and get more feedback of what my strengths actually are, and maybe I need to disrupt myself and not take a job at the level that I once was?
Step back. take one a notch below to get in, to get my confidence up, to make money so then I can move on from there.
And at the same time, recognize, okay, this really stinks, and this has been really hard, what am I gonna learn from this, so that I can be more effective in the future?
I also know people who during their time off, particularly if they've gotten any sort of severance, will use that time to take classes, build new skills so that their resume looks stronger.
And that sort of leads into my next question is, how should people talk about resume gaps when that period of unemployment has lasted longer than you would like?
The best possible thing you can do is to name it.
So, this has been longer than I expected, but let me talk you through number one.
All the things that I've learned during this time period, whether it's skills, sometimes For example, if you, this may not be a layoff, but if you, for example, we're at home to care for an aging parent or caring for children, there are lots of things you learned in the process of wrangling children or, or trying to navigate the healthcare system.
So, there are going to be some things that you learned in that process.
I think also, if you can talk about how being in this period of not having a job has transformed your thinking, what have you learned, what meaning have you made of this?
so that you're able to help people see that you're thinking strategically, thoughtfully, and then coming back to the value creation, okay here I was, here's what I learned, and here, because of all these things I learned during this period, I can create value for you today, that I probably couldn't have created for you six months ago because of this experience that I had.
So you're not running away from it, you're not hiding from it, you're not shamed by it, Again, this goes to the head game that you're doing.
You're saying, I had this experience.
Here's what I learned and here's the value that can be created because of it.
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So, we know that, particularly in this volatile climate, this is happening to people at all different stages of their careers, do you advise people differently based on where they are in life?
You know, yes, I do.
So, if you... But it's not so much where they are, in life, in terms of age, it's more of their situation.
So for example, if you have someone who basically is saying to you, okay, I just lost my job and I have three months and then I don't have any money.
Then my advice is you need to go find a job now and you probably need to do a job that's even one wrong lower than where you are.
Because if you run out of money you will start to freak out and you can't freak out.
because if you start freaking out, you can't think strategically anymore.
So your number one priority is just to say, okay, I've got three months of severance, I need to find a job ASAP, figure out what that is.
So that's a big constraint and you solve for that constraint.
If you are in a position where maybe you're very young, just basically at a school, you're living at home right now, doing a remote job, and you've got a little bit more time than I say, Okay, use this time to really think about what do I want to do next and how am I going to position myself, et cetera.
I would say also if you've got someone who's more toward the end of their career and thinking about what do I actually want to do, I'd say take some more time and think about how you're really going to align to your values.
Go to a place of an encore career.
The big constraint here usually is financial and you've got to operate within that constraint.
but the first principle here would be, what do I need to do so that I can stay in a place where I can think rationally and logically, and then whatever it is you need to do to make that happen, then that's probably how much time you have. So I know we're talking about unexpected disruptions, but are there preemptive steps that any of us, maybe especially people in schier industries or ventures should take to be ready in case the worst does happen.
I would say a number of preemptive things you can do is obviously be continuously collecting skills and relationships.
I remember having a conversation with Sandy Stelling a few years ago.
She was at Alaska Airlines for several decades and she was continually building expertise across the organization.
IT and then airport services and maintenance.
oftentimes they didn't make any sense of what she was doing, but it made her in valuable across the organization so that when industry disruptions came, which come all the time in airlines, she was a go -to player within that organization and could have probably gone to lots of other places.
I think from a mindset perspective, you really, if you're willing to do the hard work of changing your assumptions about yourself, so be aware of those limiting beliefs, when disruption comes you'll not only be okay but say okay how is this going to be an opportunity for me.
Absolutely create the financial run way, so save money build well, spend less than you earn, so that you are in a position when that happens, to say all right this is a good, but we will be able to manage this.
And then I would say build out your network of people that you can really rely on, so that when you need, again back to it's a lot easier to get a job if you already have a it's a lot easier to ask people for help, if you've already been in relation with them so when you're going to to ask for that help.
Yeah. You've mentioned pivots a couple times and I know that you're a fan of disrupting yourself, so could these unexpected unwanted disruptions be a good time to make that happen?
You know, switch careers, try a passion you've always wanted to pursue, or is that adding too much additional risk to an already fraught situation.
I think it depends.
Certainly when this happens, you have this opportunity to reflect on what you want to actually do, and so you can reset an opportunity cost as lower.
So if you think about from a disruption standpoint, on the y -axis of success, if you were at a 12, and you had to go down to a 10 of your own volition, you might not do it.
But now that you're already here, then you're more likely to do it.
So I think it's absolutely easier.
Again, there are these constraints that you have, but here's what I would say in my experienced Allison, and this is maybe a research study that HBR should do someday, is that when people have lost their jobs frequently, if not almost always, they felt like it was no longer the right job for them, they felt it like somewhere deep in their soul, they felt like this isn't the job for me anymore?
And they were hesitant to move for a variety of circumstances and so the universe sort of gave them that nudge.
And so once you've gotten that nudge, once you're already here, once you know you need to do something different, if you possibly can, this is the perfect time for you to say, what do I really want to do with my life?
Yeah, reframing it as an opportunity.
We used to have a feature called Crucible that sort was people undergoing very difficult things and sort of how they came out the other side.
And nearly everyone says, oh, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I was able to make this change that I never would have made otherwise.
Now, of course, when you're in the moment, it doesn't feel like an opportunity.
But you can see how long -term it might end up for the better.
Is it your sense that career disruptions like these are becoming more common?
just because the contract between employee and employer has changed.
That's definitely a factor.
I think it's also a factor that disruption is accelerating.
So, I do think it's more common. At the same time that it's more common, I think that's where the opportunity is.
So, yes, skills are going to become more obsolete.
The contract between worker and employer has changed.
But if you can learn really quickly an AI can help you learn really quickly.
And if you can learn to work with people because I think with a pace of change accelerating emotional dysregulation is going to get exacerbated.
So if you can work with yourself as I keep talking about and you can work with other people, you're actually going to become more valuable.
So it's an interesting paradox.
Because yes, I think career descriptions are gonna happen more, but if you're willing to learn fast and learn about yourself and work with other people, you will become even more valuable than you were before you were disrupted.
It's tough because I'm someone, in particular, who's sort of a creature of habit.
I liked that I've only worked basically at two places my entire career.
And so I'm someone who sort of doesn't feel ready for that kind of world where there's sort of an expectation that you're constantly going to move jobs because your business is being disrupted or your industry is changing or federal policy is changing.
How does someone who is less adaptable move into this new future?
mmm What I have found is that it is important I mean part of it goes to you decide if you think it's important to be adaptable I mean you may decide it's not that important in some people will and that's okay but if you decide that it's important to be adaptable but you say to yourself I really like my job I don't want to change jobs but I do need to develop this muscle a little bit more what I have found is that it's really a good practice to put yourself in a position of trying do new things.
So sometimes people will ask me, so what are your hobbies?
And I think my hobby is trying new things.
I want to, I want to develop that muscle of being able to be adaptable.
So like last Christmas or a year ago, I took surfing lessons, and I will tell you I was absolutely thrilled when I saw myself get up on a surfboard. It wasn't very good.
It didn't matter because I was doing something new and building that muscle.
So I would say for someone who says, you know what, I really like my job.
I don't wanna change jobs and I feel like I'm adapting enough within the strictures of the job itself.
But I know this muscle is important then find other ways and other parts of your life to flex that muscle, so that if it does come, you are prepared.
And I would also argue Allison that everybody has disruption in their life.
Maybe it's not on the professional front, but it's probably on the personal front.
So how are you exercising that muscle regardless of where you are, so that you do have that ability when you need it.
And as I said, you are a big fan of people disrupting themselves, so that they can learn and grow in different roles and industries, and certainly get ready for this fast -changing, business world that is in front of us.
But when things do feel uncertain and unstable, should we still be doing that, or should we wait while things are calm, and then wait for disruption to happen and disrupt ourselves then?
You know, sometimes people will ask me the question like, can there be too much disruption?
And I think the answer is absolutely yes, they're can.
I continually think about you know, the sweet spot of like something needs to be hard, but not too hard and easy, but not too easy.
And you've heard me talk about S curves and having a portfolio of S curves.
And what I find is that you want to balance that portfolio with most of your life in the sweet spot where it's hard, but not too hard, easy but not too easy.
You wanna have some places where you feel pretty anchored, like I feel comfortable, I know what I'm doing, I'm an expert at this, I've lived in the same house for a long time, whatever it is.
But at any given time, you wanna have something that is kind of pushing you a little bit.
It's a little bit hard, it's a little bit out of your comfort zone.
So the answer to that question, Allison, would be, is if you've got too much disruption, there's too much change happening in your life, you do want to look for an opportunity a way for something that will anchor you so that that you're in balance from a cease -aw perspective.
It also strikes me that people in sort of disruptive situations at work.
I'm thinking like a merger that might end up in a redundancy that leaves you laid off or a rework that might push you towards a demotion, those are also opportunities for people to say, okay, if I'm on the chopping block, what could I do?
What could I put my hand up for to add value to this rapidly changing organization?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it's like you head off the disruption or the shock.
You see it coming and you say, all right, so this is this is about to go away.
I want to stay at this organization so how could I take my skills, my abilities, reconfigure them and take that initiative?
What problem needs to be solved in the organization?
I think I find it fascinating, Allison.
Because we know to do that, like go solve a problem.
And yet we, so often we get to this place of learned helplessness and so why are we not solving the problem?
Yes, absolutely, you can head that off.
This is going away.
This over here needs to happen.
I've got these skills I can solve this for.
You know, sometimes organization won't let you, but that mindset will serve you well, whether it's you're at your current organization or a new organization.
It gets you energized and puts you in a more optimistic mood where you're thinking about what you can do instead of what you can't do.
Absolutely. And whatever you focus on, you get more of.
Well, Whitney, thank you so much for talking to us about this topic.
I know that there are a lot of people potentially struggling right now and so hopefully this will give them some advice and hope going forward. Thank you.
That's Whitney Johnson, CEO of Destruction Advisors.
Next week, Audi sits down with the media legend, Barry Diller, to talk about his management philosophy, taking risks, and how he decides a deal is worthwhile.
And we now have more than a thousand ideacast episodes plus many more HBR podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization, and your career.
Find them at hbr .org slash podcasts or search HBR and Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
Thanks to our team, senior producer Mary Doo, associate producer Hannah Bates, product manager Ian Fox and senior production specialist Rob Eckhart.
And thanks to you for listening to the HBR ideacast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday, I'm Allison Beard. It's an interesting time for business, you need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real -time cashflow.
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If you're revenues are at least in the 7 figures, download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade, Three Insights for Leaders at netsuite .com slash Ideacast. That's NetSuite .com slash Ideacast.
