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Now, on with the show.
From the brains behind Brains On, it's Smash Boom Best.
The show for people with big opinions.
I'm Molly Bloom and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together and ask you to decide which one is best.
Get ready for a dino debate where two colossal creatures will fight tooth and claw to be crowned the Smash Boom Beast.
It's Tyrannosaurus Rex versus Triceratops, a debate 65 million years in the making.
Here to fight for T rex with its mean mouth and mini arms.
We've got author and paleontologist Riley Black.
Riley even just wrote a book called Tyrant Lizard Queen The Love, Life and Terror of Earth's Greatest Carnivore.
Hi, Riley.
Hello, and much like a T. rex, I cannot wait to sink my teeth into this debate.
Yes.
So, Riley, what is your book about?
So my book's really about the life of a T-Rex, bringing all the science that we know, that we've uncovered thus far, about how they hatched, how they grew up, how they nested, how they fought each other, hunted other dinosaurs, really taking, you know, over 100 years of paleontological research about T-Rex and really bringing the animal to life.
I cannot wait to read it.
Next up, it's got four legs, three horns, and a shield-like frill on its head.
It's Triceratops.
And here, to hype it up, is paleontologist PBS Eons, host and curator of the University of Montana Fossil Collection, Callie Moore.
Hello.
I am so excited to be here repping my favorite dinosaur, Triceratops.
And our judge for this supersized debate is Siddharth from Houston, Texas.
Siddharth is a fellow dino fanatic, a bird watcher, which basically means he watches modern dinos.
He loves cooking and does traditional Asiatic archery.
Hi, Siddharth.
Hi, Molly.
So why do you love dinosaurs so much?
Can you describe it?
I just think they're such cool creatures.
And it started when I got a book about dinosaurs.
And I just really liked the illustrations.
And that got me interested in dinosaurs.
And then that slowly evolved into a love for birds as well.
So do you have a current favorite dinosaur?
That's tough.
But I think one of my favorites has to be Struthiomimus, just because...
It's called ostrich mimic and it's an ostrich-like dinosaur that is known to be probably one of the fastest dinosaurs that has ever lived.
So I know you love to cook too.
And I heard you have a special hot cocoa recipe called Siddharth's unnecessarily complicated but mind-blowing hot chocolate recipe.
Tell me about this hot chocolate recipe, if you can share the secret.
This is just some hot cocoa that I made when I got bored once.
So what I did was I melted chocolate and cream in a pot and then let it simmer, and then added cocoa powder, a little bit of vanilla extract, some cinnamon powder.
And then mix that up.
And then at the very end, I added some milk.
So it's just really rich and it's really thick.
Sounds amazing.
What other things do you like to cook?
I like to bake cakes and like pies.
So over Thanksgiving, me and my mom actually made an apple galette which is similar to like a rustic apple pie.
Incredible.
Sounds like I want to come hang out with you and your mom.
I'm inviting myself over.
I hope that's okay.
That's perfectly fine.
So what advice do you have for our debaters today?
Lean into, like the facts and how, what sets your dinosaur apart from others that may be similar to it, and just what makes it better than the other one.
Hmm, very good advice.
Will Siddharth pick T-Rex or Triceratops?
Let's find out.
But first, here are the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds.
The Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six.
After each round, our judge Siddharth will award points to the team that impresses him the most, but he'll keep his decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge too.
Mark down your points as you listen.
At the end of the show, head to our website smashboomorg, and vote for whichever team you think won.
Okay, Riley, Callie, and Siddharth, are you ready?
Yes, I'm ready.
Yeah, hit me with it.
Ready to rumble.
Excellent.
Well, it's time for the Declaration of Greatness.
In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side.
Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements.
We flipped a coin, and Riley, you're up first.
Implore us to pick Tyrannosaurus.
This debate almost isn't fair because T-Rex, it's not just a star of the dinosaur world.
It's the star.
Its skull is the Jurassic Park logo.
Its bones are front and center at museums.
Its legend is the stuff of, well, legend.
But it's worth debating if only to remind you why T-Rex is so popular.
The first of the dinosaur's bones known to paleontologists were dug up and named a little over 100 years ago.
They were dubbed Tyrannosaurus rex, which means tyrant, lizard, king.
No dinosaur name goes harder.
One reporter back then called T rex a prize fighter of antiquity, and that was when only its legs were on display.
And they went on to describe how it would do in a battle against Triceratops.
Hitted against the alert and towering tyrant lizard, who ran with great agility on his two hind feet and could play frightful havoc with his savage canine teeth, the Triceratops must have waged a rather unequal combat.
Or put another way, Triceratops didn't stand a chance.
After decades of study and loads more fossils, we still think T rex is one of the greatest predators ever.
It had teeth the size of bananas.
Its bite was as powerful as 13 grand pianos slamming down on you, according to some research.
Even its tiny front arms were probably a lot stronger than you think.
But you don't need all those facts to get it.
You just need to see one.
I remember being a kid wandering the halls of the American Museum of Natural History when I saw my first
A T-Rex skeleton.
Whoa.
A T-Rex skeleton.
I definitely love dinosaurs now.
It helped inspire a lifelong obsession, and that's another reason T. rex is tops.
It's an ambassador for all dinosaur kind, the gateway dino, the one that grabs your attention and gets you hooked.
And next thing you know you're out in Montana knee-deep in dirt looking for fossils of your own.
And even if T rex isn't your favorite dinosaur, you probably still know a ton about it because it's so impressive.
Lastly, T. rex is great for debate.
No, not this debate.
I mean, it is great for Smash Boom Best, but I was talking about scientific debate.
T-Rex is so popular that people have strong opinions about it.
In the world of science, you need strong research to back that.
And T-Rex has inspired lots of debate and lots of research.
I read that it's actually a scavenger.
T-Rex just ate things that were already dead.
No way.
My evidence says it was a hunter. floofy, feathery hunter, like Big Bird with teeth.
What?
Nonsense.
It was scaly, like Godzilla.
I have research to prove it.
T-Rex is like a celebrity we can't stop gossiping about, except all the gossip comes in the form of research papers based on scientific evidence.
Like any celebrity, T-Rex's life is a little messy, with lots of rumors and unanswered questions, which means there's still plenty of things for curious people like you to figure out.
So yeah, this dino is the real deal.
It's captivating.
It's terrifying.
It's fascinating.
It's mysterious.
And it's just plain cool.
Why settle for an okay dino like Triceratops when you can pick the king, the final boss, the dino that keeps delivering thrills and chills, even after 66 million years of extinction?
If you want the best, it's gotta be T-Rex.
The king and queen and all the things in between of the dinosaurs.
Siddharth, what stood out to you about Riley's Declaration of Greatness?
I really liked how Riley talked about how iconic the T-Rex was and referred to it as like the ambassador of the dinosaur world.
I could also relate to when they talked about how it got you hooked into dinosaurs, since it was definitely one of the dinosaurs that got me hooked into wanting to learn more about them.
Very good.
Okay, Callie, it is time for your rebuttal.
You've got 30 seconds to defang some of Riley's arguments, and your time starts now.
All right.
While I do agree that T-Rex is everywhere and you see T-Rex everywhere I almost think that T-Rex has gotten played out almost oversaturated, kind of like the Taylor Swift of the dinosaur world.
Also, T rex was found when the paleontologists were actually going out to find more Triceratops bones.
So Triceratops has been known longer than T. rex has been.
And we have loads of fossils of T. rex.
And time.
Dang.
T-Swift, T-Rex, a lot in common.
I'd say there's nothing wrong with the populist choice.
I mean, T-Rex is everywhere for a reason.
We can't get enough of the dinosaur.
Imagine, you know, a Jurassic Park film or a dinosaur game or really anything without a T-Rex in it.
It's like yeah, they're kind of everywhere, but we'd be a little bit disappointed if they didn't show up.
Hmm.
Very interesting.
All right.
We've got some big beasts and even bigger arguments.
We're going to hear more in just a second.
So stick around.
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Okay, we are back and it's your turn, Callie, to sound off.
Tell us why triceratops are totally top tier.
Triceratops were the powerhouses of the late Cretaceous period.
These four-legged phenoms are known for their massive beaks, huge frills and, of course, the two ginormous horns above their eyes and one on their nose.
Looks-wise, that's hard to beat.
It's like nature already gave them a crown for being the best dino ever.
But there's much more to these beloved beasties than their horns.
Triceratops weighed as much as 10 tons.
That's like an elephant.
And since their horns and frills were so large, their skulls were super big too, roughly eight feet long.
That's kind of about the size of a truck bed.
With their incredible size, these powerful, monstrous, tremendous creatures would Eat plants.
Yep, these giants were vegans.
The entire Jurassic Park franchise is based on all the problems meat-eating dinos cause.
But if it was just Triceratops, you'd just chill and share a salad.
Oh my gosh!
Oh my gosh!
The Triceratops is coming this way!
What are we gonna do?
Excuse me, human.
But do you have any extra croutons?
Oh, sure!
Who doesn't appreciate some extra crunch in their salad?
Let's skip around this meadow together when we're done eating.
Yay!
Best theme park ever.
But just because it wouldn't eat you doesn't mean Triceratops couldn't throw down if it was attacked.
Like, imagine if the Cretaceous period was high school, T-Rex would definitely be the bully.
Give me your lunch money or I'm going to eat you.
Here, just stop pushing me into my locker with your tiny but mighty arms.
You know who could stand up to that bully?
That's right.
Hey, Rex, back off.
Whoa, it's a Triceratops.
Okay, okay, I'll back off.
Just put those horns away.
No can do, buddy.
They're part of my head.
Shh.
There's fossil evidence that suggests these three-horned heroes actually battled T rex and survived.
That's tough, but researchers think they did more than scare off mean old meat-eaters.
They may have also used their horns to duel one another to win over potential mates.
How cool would it be to see that?
Just imagine two eight-ton triceratops shove-fighting like two angry bumper cars.
Another reason to love Triceratops is that they've taught us a ton.
Because their sturdy skulls do such a good job of lasting overtime, Triceratops fossils aren't rare.
Scientists have plenty of them, so they can use their skulls and skull fragments to gain a greater understanding of these creatures' lives, as well as the lives of other dinos living in the late Cretaceous period.
So if you're looking for a monster to gobble you up, then say yes to the Rex.
But if you're looking for a well of knowledge, a powerful fighter and a hunky herbivore you can adore, then I suggest you join Team Triceratops.
Okay, I'd like to give a hunky herbivore a hug.
Siddharth, what stood out to you about Callie's argument there?
I think when she was talking about how huge the Triceratops was and when she used the analogy of it being able to stand up to a bully, it really showed how powerful it was.
I also liked when she was talking about how, because the Triceratops is so abundant, it gives paleontologists a much greater understanding of it and its surroundings.
Very, very good.
Okay, Riley, it is time for your rebuttal.
You've got 30 seconds to tear apart Callie's case and your time starts now.
Allie made some excellent points about why Triceratops is so big and impressive, but part of that is because it owes it to T-Rex.
T-Rex ate baby and juvenile and sub-adult Triceratops all the time, causing them to grow really really big, really really fast.
Grow those impressive horns.
So Triceratops, being big and impressive, owes a little bit of gratitude to T-Rex for making that evolutionarily possible.
You have eight seconds.
I rest my case.
Short and sweet.
I will say that it is fun to think about the evolutionary pressure of a predator on their prey species.
But I think T rex might have done a little bit too good of a job, because some of the triceratops have incredible horns.
So we talk about how big they were, but the largest eyebrow horns that we know actually comes from a triceratops called Yoshi's trike.
And they're almost four feet long, but that's just the horn core.
You have to put like fingernail material, keratin on top of that.
So it could be even like a foot longer.
So five foot horns behind an eight to 10 ton animal trying to spear a T-Rex.
So I think it might have done too good.
It created its own worse weapon.
Okay, Siddharth, we've heard a lot of good arguments here, but it's time to award some points.
Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over.
You get to decide what makes a winning argument.
Did one team have more facts?
Did one team really bring the emotion?
It's entirely subjective and entirely up to you.
Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Excellent.
Callie and Riley, how are you two feeling so far?
I'm feeling good.
I'm feeling good.
Got the champ in my corner.
I've got the crown on my head already.
All right.
It is time for a quick break.
Chew on a prehistoric plant or go stalk a sauropod.
And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Beth.
You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
Ahoy, debate mates!
It's debate fanatic and captain of the doggone great cruise ship, Todd Douglas.
And please, put your paws together for Taylor Lincoln.
Ahoy, Todd!
I still can't believe we managed to land this gig running a cruise ship for dogs.
Anything is possible when you put your mind to it, Tay-Tay.
Right you are, T-Dog.
And it just so happens that I have a real tail-wagger of a logical fallacy today.
A logical fallacy is a weak-sauce argument that makes a debate easy to disprove.
It all started when one of our four-legged friends witnessed this co-worker spat.
Who's a good girl?
That's right.
Ella's a good girl.
Oh, great, Kath.
Another dog in the office?
Wait a sec, Jen.
You don't like dogs?
Ever since the law offices of Buyers, Buyers & Sellers started allowing us to bring our well-behaved pooches to work, the mood has really lightened up around here.
Sure, but what next?
First it's dogs, next cats, then orangutans and hippos?
By this time next year, we could start charging people to visit the Buyers, Buyers & Sellers Zoo.
Bow wow wow.
Jen's argument is pretty rough.
Looks like we've got a slippery slope fallacy on our hands.
Yeah, just because their workplace allows dogs doesn't mean all kinds of animals will be allowed in.
That kind of slippery thinking might get Jen sent to the dog house.
While the cruise ship is about to dock, can you prepare our canine companions?
Aye, aye, Captain.
Attention, poochies.
Get ready for an absolute treat.
We're about to dock at Fetch Island, where rope toys are plentiful and there are two tennis balls for each and every one of you.
Now go get them.
We'll see you next time on State of Debate.
Smash Boom Best.
You're listening to Smash Boom Best.
I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
And I'm your judge, Sidarth.
And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners like this tasty one.
My name is Liam, and my Smash Boom Best debate idea is corndogs versus funnel cake.
I'm down to eat whichever side wins or loses.
I'll eat both, honestly.
They're both delicious.
For real.
We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Leo thinks should win.
Now let's get back to our debate.
Tyrannosaurus Rex versus Triceratops.
Yes, and it's time for round two, the...
Cali and Riley will each get three chances to make a micro-argument backed by a cool fact.
Riley went first in the previous round, so Cali, you start this time.
Let's hear your first fact.
Triceratops is the peacock of dinosaurs.
Not only was its headgear impressive.
Some researchers think that the frills, the shield part, might have changed color.
This is a wild but fascinating theory.
Evidence suggests those frills had a lot of blood vessels.
And some researchers think that maybe those blood vessels would fill to make patterns that scare off predators.
Color change patterns. like a dino cuttlefish.
Or maybe this was used to impress other Triceratops.
So it's like a dinosaur, peacock, cuttlefish, color-changing, amazing dinosaur.
Either way, it's totally tops.
Amazing.
Would a T. rex by another name still be as cool?
Well, we almost found out.
Around.
The same time that T rex was getting named, another similar fossil was dug up and called Dynamosaurus imperiosus.
It seemed to even have armor plates.
Later, scientists figured out that these were the same animal, with some ankylosaurus mixed in to old Dynamosaurus.
But since the name Tyrannosaurus rex came first in the report about them, that's the name that stuck.
If we went with Dynamosaurus imperiosus, would the animal still be as popular?
And would the nickname be Dinah Impy?
I'm glad we got T-Rex.
So there's been some arguments over what name T rex should be named, but there's also kind of a mystery about Triceratops.
And one of the big questions is, did it travel solo or in herds?
For a long time the evidence suggested they were mostly solo dinosaurs, because we didn't find fossils in large groups.
But a more recent discovery showed us five Triceratops that appeared to live together.
Were they a family, part of a huge herd?
What were their social dynamics like?
Would they have been my friend?
So many fun questions left to answer.
Well, on that subject of why they grouped together, it's because there was a big, hungry carnivore watching them from the shadows of these prehistoric forests.
Because we know that T. rex probably had killer eyes, too.
Research suggests that their peepers were the size of oranges, making them the largest of any land animal, and their eyes face forward, high in the head and spaced relatively far apart.
This leads paleontologists to think that T-Rex can gauge distances just like we do with our forward-facing eyes.
Also perfect for the world's most terrifying staring contest.
My, what big eyes you have, T-Rex.
But T-Rex wasn't the only one with also terrific teeth.
Triceratops had powerful chompers, as many as 800 in their mouth. at a time.
They had shapes that sliced and looked like something you'd see today on a sword or a fighting knife.
Researchers think this helped.
Triceratops munch on harder plants that other dinosaurs couldn't handle.
So just because it didn't eat meat doesn't mean it didn't have a fierce bite.
You certainly had me there for tooth count.
I can't beat you on that one.
But when it comes to star power...
I don't know if we can do better than T-Rex, and part of that star power is the roar.
So T-Rex from the original Jurassic Park, Rexy, is probably the most iconic dino in all of cinema.
To get that signature bone-chilling roar sound effects, artists use a mixture of noises from lions alligators, whales and baby elephants.
Researchers think the real T-Rex probably didn't sound like that, but you know, it never stopped Hollywood before and honestly I think it works.
Excellent work, you guys.
Wonderful facts all around.
Siddharth, what stood out to you about this micro round?
I really liked Callie's points about how the Triceratops could change colors in its frill, because I've actually seen that in a few documentaries.
And I think about the new discovery about it. being in a herd, I think that's also very interesting.
And from Riley.
I really like their point about the eyes.
So the eyes the size of oranges in the binocular vision.
And I can also really agree with their point about Rexy, because I'm a huge Jurassic Park fan and I really think Rexy's roar is really cool and that she's a really iconic dinosaur.
Indeed.
Okay, so Siddharth.
There are so many good facts.
You learned some.
I mean, I learned a lot.
You might have known that stuff.
But it was so cool.
So please, Siddharth, it is time to award a point.
Did someone make you think?
Did someone make you feel?
Did someone pique your curiosity?
Totally subjective.
Totally up to you.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Fantastic.
Hold tight.
We'll be right back with more debate after this.
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Join Smarty Pass and get an ad-free feed of this and all the other Brains On Universe shows.
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Thanks.
We're back and it's time for our third round, the super stealthy Sneak Attack.
This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot.
Today's sneak attack is called Speed Facts.
Your job is to spit out as many cool facts and points about your side as you can muster, but only in one breath.
You can repeat facts from before, you can make facts against the other side whatever you want, but you only got one breath.
Does that make sense, debaters?
Yes.
I'm ready.
Okay.
We're going to see about our lung capacity.
Okay.
So we're going to start with Riley.
Take a big breath and then go whenever you're ready.
So baby T-Rex started out about the size of a raven.
And through their lifetime they grew to about 40 feet long and nine tons, perhaps even a little bit more, based upon some of the largest specimens that we know of.
They could get so big because their skeletons had all these air pockets in them which Triceratops did not have, because they belonged to entirely different groups of dinosaurs.
And they took a breath there.
It's hard.
That was amazing.
This is really hard.
It's really hard.
It's so hard.
Callie, you got some, you got a deep breath in you.
Whenever you're ready, inhale and let the facts fly.
Triceratops is one of the coolest dinosaurs, I think, because we have so many of them.
We have little, bitty, teeny, tiny babies.
We have a little bit bigger babies.
We have adults and everything in between.
And a lot of the frill along the top has these little crannulations and they were unattached when they were babies and they became attached when they were babies and their horns moved different directions as they grew.
Amazing, amazing.
Oh, very impressive.
I was basically walking myself through the Museum of the Rockies ontogeny series.
Perfect.
You know, it worked.
I loved it.
All right, Siddharth, it is time to award a point for this fast and sneaky sneak attack.
Think about which side impressed you the most and award your fourth point.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Wonderful.
Then it's time for our final round.
The final six.
In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side.
Callie, toot your horn for the terrific Triceratops.
Triceratops are colorful spike heads with attitudes.
Ooh, very nice.
Okay, Riley, it is your turn.
Six words on why the one with the bite is a dynamite.
Come for the king, get chomped.
Very nice, very nice.
All right, Siddharth, it is time to award a final point for the final six.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Okay, tally up those points.
Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom best?
Yes.
All right, drumroll please.
And the winner is... Triceratops.
Oh my gosh!
What an upset!
Oh man, I was just dancing around in my living room.
I'm going to have to update some books about this.
So, Siddharth, was there a moment that decided things for you?
For me, it was neck and neck up until the final six.
And...
I just think that Callie's point about them being like colorful.
And I just thought the final six was really persuasive and summed up a lot of the cool arguments that she made.
Very, very good.
First, thank you so much Siddharth, for this honor of being the Smash Boom, Best Triceratops winning champion team over here.
But riley, i really appreciate the knowledge that you brought to this.
I mean, you've written the book on t-rex, so it's so cool to hear some of your facts that you know about t-rex come to this debate.
And yeah, that was uh, that was a tough fight.
That was real, as it would have been in real life too.
Um, that was a.
That was a tough battle Ali, of course.
Congratulations on your win.
Entirely deserved.
I was secretly rooting for Triceratops kind of this whole time clear how much you know about this dinosaur.
When you mentioned you can envision the museum of the rockies and going through the exhibits and the growth series and the ontogeny and all the recent discoveries and stuff you're so on top of it, i could visualize exactly what you're talking about.
I'm sure if we discuss dinosaurs in real life like the hours would just melt by your incredible font of info about paleontology and thank you for sharing it.
Well, that is it for today's debate battle.
Siddharth crowned Triceratops the Smash Boom best, but what about you?
Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
This episode was produced by me, Molly Bloom, and Sandman Totten.
We had sound design by Mark Sanchez, and he also wrote our theme song.
We had engineering help from Fujio Watanabe.
Our announcer is Marlee Feuerwerker-Otto, and we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman.
Riley, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
Certainly.
I'd love to give a shout out to my dog Jet, who has been here curled up, snoring away with me the whole time.
And he's been out in the field with me.
He actually helped me found some fossils.
So I got to give him a shout out for that.
He's helped me bring some fossils back for us to study.
Oh, that's awesome.
And how about you, Callie?
Any special shout outs?
Man, I wish my cat could do that.
I mean he likes to smell stuff if I bring him in the house, but he definitely isn't going to go out in the field with me.
I guess I'll give a shout out to Eons.
If you want to hear more about a lot of cool dinosaur stuff and ancient Earth and paleontology, check out our channel PBS Eons.
Awesome.
We will link to that and Riley's book in the show notes.
And how about you, Siddharth?
Any special thanks or shout outs?
I'd like to give a special shout out to my mom for driving me here and also for sparking my interest in dinosaurs.
Aw, thanks, Basuda.
Okay, before we go, let's check in and see who Leo thinks should win the corndog versus funnel cake debate.
I think corndog should win because you can put different sauces on it and it's got the breading.
If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag-out debate, head to smashboomorg, slash contact and drop us a line.
And if you're a fan of the show and want to keep it going, head to smartypass.org to subscribe.
We'll be back next week with a new Smash Boom Best episode, Slutting vs. Rock Climbing.
Toodaloo!
Okay, bye!
Farewell, everybody.
Bye-bye.
Oh, yeah.
If you want a deep dive nerd sesh, we could probably do that.
How many hours do you have?
How long can you record for?
Until my hard drive is full.
I would love it.
