The Truth About Tough Decisions — What No One Teaches You｜Negotiate Anything

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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of negotiate anything, with over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds.

We've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Stephanie, welcome back to the show.

Hey, thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it is our pleasure.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure.

So I have been a lawyer for the last 15 years.

I've spent most of that time in the courthouse doing negotiations mediations, trying to get cases to resolve.

I'm also a candidate for judge in Franklin County Ohio, running for an open seat in our general division court.

I'm a mom.

I feel like negotiation and decision making comes in play often there as well.

And a wife, which comes in there as well.

Definitely.

Oh, this is exciting.

Well, congratulations.

I know this is an exciting time.

So for those listeners who are out in Franklin County in Ohio, now you know, Stephanie Hanna, make sure that is your decision.

And speaking of decisions, that's what today is all about.

We're talking about negotiation as a decision making tool.

And that's why I wanted to bring you in, because being a judge is all about effective decision making.

And so, when you think about decision making in general, what's your general approach to how to make good decisions?

Yeah, I think, as I have gotten older and wiser and had more and more conversations and difficult conversations, I think my overall approach is slowing down and trying to gather as much information as possible.

I also do think there's a fine line between overkill in that department, right?

You can drag your heels and gather information to the point where you're just going in circles and not actually making the decision.

So you know, I definitely am in favor of actual decision making, but I do think it's important to pause, gather information, have conversations and get what you feel is appropriate and then spend some time to actually make a decision that you feel comfortable with.

I agree 100% that at the end of the day, negotiation is an information game.

So the more high quality information you have, the better off you're going to be.

But also recognizing that overkill is an option here too, because I think a lot of times We can just in general, let's set a negotiation aside.

We can get into this information gathering stage and it's really just a sneaky way of fear holding us back because we just keep on saying I need more info, more info, more info.

And then we push back the decision making process so we don't ultimately make a decision.

Yes, absolutely.

So you have to be careful that you don't you rely on it as a crutch too much.

But short of that, i do think it's an effective tool.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And so you know what's funny we're getting very met up very quickly because we always talk about negotiation with the other person.

But we're recognizing more and more one of the most important negotiations we have to have is with ourselves, because we have to understand what it would take for us to make an effective decision in this moment, because what it takes to make an effective decision in one context may be different from another context.

We might be confident in one context but we might have fear, but hidden fear.

Hidden to other people and to ourselves in another one.

So it seems like we have to negotiate with ourselves, to dig deeply beneath the surface, to understand what might make it difficult to make a good decision in this context too.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's funny in the work setting when i'm at the courthouse and i've also served as a magistrate.

So in these various courthouse settings where i am essentially, you know, making decisions or advising the judge on a decision i think he should make for people that don't have anything to do with me right, it's very easy to be pretty cerebral and like okay, here's the law, here's what i think we should do, here are the reasons it's laid out when you are making decisions for yourself.

You know, I'm pretty sure I just spent collectively eight hours researching summer camps for my kids.

It shouldn't be that difficult, right?

It shouldn't be that tough.

But yeah, you do have to kind of get in your own head and kind of find a path out, so to speak, so that you can say hey, I make decisions all day long for other people.

And this is kind of the format and the protocol that I follow.

So when I start getting too in my head and feeling like I'm going around on a hamster wheel, what can I implement from what I do in my other decision-making roles to incorporate in my personal decision-making to make it a little smoother?

I like that because the models can be widely applicable.

And a lot of times we just stay so focused on one mode of thinking in one area that we don't recognize that we think differently in different areas.

And that different type of thinking could be beneficial here too.

Yes, absolutely.

Oh, this is good.

This is good.

So now let's talk about the preparation portion of the negotiation because, let's say, we have this negotiation with ourselves internally.

Okay, great.

I have the clarity.

I understand what I want, why I want it.

I understand what emotional barriers might get in the way, and I've kind of worked around that.

Now in your experience negotiating and resolving conflicts.

When it comes to preparation, what does prep look like for you?

I think you know when I am in a role where I am listening to other people and trying to make a decision, you know, on behalf of the court, for example, preparation is trying to understand the kind of the emotions of each side and making sure that I build in time into the conversation so that they can express those or at least feel like they have time to express those.

Because I think it is easier for me personally to make a decision or recommend a decision when I feel comfortable, that the people have felt like the process was fair right.

Like they had a chance to be heard.

They had a chance to kind of share their thoughts, their positions.

Then it to make a decision.

And it's interesting because we work with attorneys a lot.

And I think it's pretty easy to see attorneys who can very clearly put their attorney hat on and represent their clients right.

A third party.

And then there are some lawyers who they're representing a third party, but it's still, for whatever reason, is very personal to them.

And that can kind of come across in their communication style.

And so it's almost like they need time to vent or let it out.

But I mean, I think the first part of the process that's really important right, is to just make sure that there's that space and time to let people have an opportunity to you know, share their viewpoints.

I love this because emotional intelligence is critical in negotiation, but especially for people who are very technical.

Both of us, we're lawyers, we have that background and we know how we can be.

But having worked with other professionals, like folks who are engineers, people who deal with numbers, a lot, those types of things, we can say hey, there's a right way and a wrong way here.

There's a right answer and a wrong answer.

And then we just focus on being right.

But there's a difference between being right and being persuasive.

So I really love how we're including that emotional intelligence.

Even before we get into the negotiation with the other side, we have to factor that in and say okay, based on the data I've collected already, what emotional state are they in?

Or can I hypothesize what emotions they might be feeling?

Because the emotional component is going to have an impact on the negotiation strategy that we choose to employ.

Yeah, absolutely.

And even as you were talking, I was thinking in a personal context.

The same thing, I think, applies where it's even just approaching it like hey-.

How are you feeling about this?

Is this a good time to chat about this?

Or let me know when there might be a good time, like kind of taking the temperature before you actually are ready to dive in tends to be a good tool, because then you are also you know you're gathering information.

Essentially also that helps you make a good decision about when you know the right time is to continue the conversation.

Absolutely.

I mean, I think it becomes even clearer in family context too.

It's like hey, I know, depending on what mood I'm in and what time it is, if Kai asks a question, it doesn't matter how he asks it.

The answer could always be no or always be yes, just completely based on timing.

Yes.

And I don't think we fully appreciate just how important time and timing is when it comes to these tough conversations, because you might go in with the right tactics, right strategy and you might execute effectively during the conversation.

But if you don't take the time to understand when the best time to negotiate is, you might fail just because of that.

Yeah.

And you know it's funny.

I have seen, I've worked for a lot of judges and I've observed a lot of judges and magistrates and they will very quickly read the temperature of the room.

And if someone does not feel ready, they typically do not hesitate to set another date, because they almost know that this is going to be fruitless.

If you're already coming in here, like if parking was bad and you were late and whatever you go, or you got personal things going on and you're kind of bringing that energy in, you know, even though case volume is very high.

And of course, there's other pressing things to do.

I have seen it pretty consistently by, I would say, you know good judges, good decision makers, where they will say hey, let's set another date for this.

This appears to not be the best time.

And they're respectful of people's emotional states.

And they know that they're not going to get.

The result they want, which is some sort of resolution of the parties, is not in a great mental space.

Absolutely.

And Stephanie, you said something a little bit ago.

I want to go back to this because you talked about the process.

And so for you, as a future judge, understanding how to make people feel respected throughout a process, even if the outcome isn't what they would want.

That's an important part of the process here of just making good decisions.

Now, when it comes to everyday negotiators whether you're negotiating at work or at home we have to recognize that we, too have the ability to be mindful about process and structure the process in an effective way where people feel respected.

And so, when we're structuring a negotiation process or a decision-making process with other people, what are the hallmarks of a process that make people feel respected?

I think the time and the space, you know it's almost like before you even get to the content.

It's all of this outside stuff, right?

Are you inviting the person?

Are you letting them know what's coming up that we're going to talk?

This is what we want to talk about.

Are you like setting the stage in a way that makes it easy for them to understand, kind of, where you're going with this?

It's one thing to say, hey, can we talk?

Do you have five minutes versus?

Hey, I've noticed A, B and C.

Do you think sometime we could put time on the calendar?

And so I think really being mindful of like setting the stage is the first part of the process.

And for people that you interact with all the time, like in a workplace.

I mean that part is happening, in my opinion.

24-7 right.

That's just like the culture that we're creating and how we're interacting with people.

But I think that definitely matters is the first piece, like setting the stage.

When is this happening?

What are we talking about?

Do you know about it?

Is it a good time, all of those things so that like when we get there, we're not dealing with all that other stuff, we can actually like get to the heart of the matter.

This is so good, because when you think about this part, i think the biggest mistake people make is that they don't think about this at all.

Yeah, Yes.

I mean, I am telling you like I have had difficult conversations, been part of them, observed them, where people are talking about millions of dollars, projects gone wrong, personal situations and setting the stage they're able to reach a resolution.

And I think it's a great deal in part of because you know you've done all this foundational work to make sure that, like people feel heard and you know there's time and space for it.

When I know that it works.

In those situations I'm like look, I'm pretty sure it can work.

You know, when you're not getting along with your colleague because of something they said in a meeting, right.

Like something like this is very easily fixable because when you apply these principles, we've got really big problems that are able to be resolved.

One hundred percent.

And Stephanie, one of the things that you've said multiple times, it's this pairing time and space.

We need to make sure that people have time and space.

Now, I think it's easy for somebody to listen to this and say, yep, OK, time and space.

That's good.

OK, now let's break this down.

Yeah, because I want you to really clarify what it is that you mean as it relates to time and space.

Let's start off there and then we'll talk about what people often miss with this.

OK, so time and space.

I really define this as like the right time.

Doesn't have to be the perfect time, but it just can't be the bad time, right?

Or a wrong time.

So a time that's on someone's calendar, where they know about it, where they, you know, have set aside like the time for it.

And then space is really like, do they know what they're walking into?

Like, are we defining kind of what we're talking about and creating an opportunity for someone to be heard and recognizing that if it doesn't resolve in these 15 or 30 or 45 minutes, we're going to set another time in a week, and recognizing that like, using this time to give it a, you know, additional time and space if needed is going to be well worth it.

You know, I get it.

Like we're all busy.

We all have a million things to do.

Every courtroom in Franklin County general division has 750 cases with and each of them have two sides who want different things, right.

So we're talking about 1400 parties essentially that want different things.

And so it can definitely be frustrating when you know you're like what, like you're not ready now

Like I have to do this again in four weeks or I have to push this out.

Like we don't have time for this, but that typically is the way that people respond best.

And that's how you get the outcome you want.

Cause the alternative is you force it now.

And especially for people who are not in a court setting, but you're talking about like working with your neighbor or your actual neighbor down the street, or a real life situation where you're going to have to encounter this person regularly.

You know it can backfire like a little bit of investment on the front end can really spare the relationship going forward.

Absolutely.

And spare the relationship going forward and also save you time in the future, because I don't think people realize that this is an investment.

So it's an investment into the relationship bank account because you're saying, all right, great.

I'm going to show you the respect of giving you the time and space you need so you can not only be heard, but also feel heard.

And then if you are mindful about the process, then you save time down the road because there are fewer miscommunications, fewer hurt, feelings that need to be addressed and those type of things.

And so sometimes we have to slow things down in order to speed it up.

But we have this, we subscribe to the belief of the cult of busyness in the business world.

And so we say, hey, in my cult of busyness, we don't have time for this.

So we're going to bully through this conversation.

And now you find yourself being forced to make time in the future because you didn't create a good process.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think that's a great way to look at it.

It will take up the time, right?

It's whether or not you are prepared for it or not.

So now we can do it in a way that we can make the time on our calendar like we can be in control, versus it blowing up six months down the road and then you're forced to create time.

Mm hmm.

Stephanie, you know, you know what I really hate?

I hate this iceberg analogy, but it is so, so apt in these situations because here's the thing.

We haven't even gotten to the point where we're talking about the actual conversation with the other side and what we would traditionally say is the negotiation.

We're recognizing that the bulk of the action starts within ourselves, where we're negotiating with ourselves to address our emotional challenges and also get clarifications so we can make better decisions.

We're negotiating in terms of preparing beforehand, and then we're structuring a process, and then we're communicating the process to the other side to get them on board for the process.

And if you get these things in order, That alone can be what wins the day during the negotiation.

But you can be a highly skilled negotiator and go in and perform perfectly and fail because you didn't do all of this pre-work.

Absolutely.

And there are plenty of people who know how to do the pre-work and you would probably rate their negotiation skills as like average or worse, right.

And it doesn't matter.

You know, I talk a lot about relationship building and that can carry the day.

Like you don't actually have to know the substance of most of the time.

You just have to know how people operate and how they communicate, and what works and what doesn't, and how to build that relationship.

And that usually saves the day.

Absolutely.

And both of us, we teach negotiation at the law school level.

And let's channel our inner law school students here.

But Professor Hanna, they're wrong on the law.

Why don't I just bully them with the facts and the law if I'm objectively correct?

Yes, that's a tough one for a lot of, you know students, younger people, you know, I shouldn't even say younger, but just maybe people who are not, as you know experienced, I guess, in having these difficult conversations.

Because I think once you've lived through enough of these scenarios, you understand that life doesn't work black and white, right and wrong.

I know that's what they teach us in law school and in other places, but that's just not how it works.

And what is being right actually mean, right?

And what is considered a win?

Like, okay, you forced the answer down their throat, but now what?

Now they're not going to give you what you want, or you don't have a relationship going forward, or you know a whole host of things that could end up being negatives, that were kind of unintended consequences of your approach.

Absolutely.

Again, there's a big difference between being right and being persuasive, because we have practiced law.

We know that being right doesn't always get us what we want.

We've been married for a while.

Being right doesn't always get you what you want.

So this is a really important thing for us to keep in mind.

And now let's go back to negotiation as a decision-making tool.

When we're talking about going through this process, gathering information, working through this conversation with the other side.

At the end of the day, we need to make a decision.

They need to make a decision.

And if we have a deal, we both are on the same page with this decision portion of the process.

What are the biggest challenges when it comes to the very end of the process, when we're actually making the decision?

I think that sometimes people think that there is not... flexibility in decision-making.

They think that it's option A or option B, like maybe that's what they've been presented with or that's all they've thought of as options.

And I think what can sometimes trip us up is that like what if we invent an option C together or an option D?

And so sometimes people get nervous about this idea of proposing a new idea or thinking outside the box, or we've always done it A or B, And especially in the outside the box, and come up with creative solutions.

That's why I love mediation when people want to go to mediation versus going to the court for a trial or through motion practice, because there's some wiggle room for creativity, but not nearly as much as when we're in a mediation process and people have full control over the outcomes.

And so I think, when it's time to make that decision, sometimes it's like dang, we've done all this work, and I don't like either of these options.

I guess this failed.

And it's like, well, no, we've done all this work.

And so we can create, use that leverage as leverage to create another option that we all like better.

I love this because the more paths to victory we have, the more likely we are to achieve a victory.

And if we just go through this and we say hey, this is a binary choice A or B, take it or leave it we're leaving a lot of options on the table and we're making it much more difficult for us to come to any kind of conclusion or decision.

Probably not a high quality decision either.

And now let's say, okay, okay, Stephanie.

All right.

Well, I'm going to be creative.

I'm creative now.

I'm a creative person.

I've changed.

Okay.

And now I've come to the table and I'm creative, but the other person is not creative.

They're still in this world where they haven't listened to this episode, and they are just seeing this as a binary choice.

So how can I persuade them or make them feel comfortable with this creativity?

So I think you can spend a little time using essentially some of the same techniques that got you here to try and see if you can explain right.

Figure out like information gather.

So we're kind of starting the process again.

So, okay, like what about this?

Like, let me gather some information.

What about this is not feeling great?

Where could we make some tweaks?

And going down this road again to try and gather information and then see if you can use that information to manipulate the options in a way that is satisfactory to both parties.

But the good thing about this is you may still do all that and be like, this is a no-go.

And I think that's okay, right?

I mean, we don't go into every mediation or negotiation wanting... resolution or perfect outcomes.

That's just not reality.

But I think if you feel like you've allowed the process to play out the best of its ability, you know that's okay.

Because, also again with the time and space, another strategy could be.

We don't have to end it right now.

We do that a lot at the courthouse.

Like, okay, you guys are close, but like, you're hung up on this one little thing.

Like let's come back in a month or a week or whatever time you know seems to be appropriate, and a lot of times that can also create some more time and space to let people digest what happened.

It could go both ways, because sometimes they can come back and they say oh, actually I changed my mind on the whole thing.

But I think more often than not they can say hey, it does make more sense to try and find a middle ground and a second mediation can prove effective.

This is great because you know it's funny.

Sometimes I feel like a one-trick pony because people are like I have this problem in a relationship.

What should I do?

Well, negotiation skills, okay.

Well, what about this?

More negotiation skills?

Right, because it's just now.

We turn this into a situation where there we have a big negotiation where we have a specific thing we're talking about, but then within the negotiation, there are micro negotiations.

Because you're saying okay, we're going through this process, we're asking questions, we're gathering information.

Now we're getting to the point of trading proposals.

They are not being creative.

Okay, i'm going to negotiate their creativity, because what you said, the example, was great.

What's not feeling great about this situation?

Because you're not saying hey, you are wrong, because negotiation expertise requires creativity.

No, forget that.

What are you feeling?

You're feeling something.

I'll validate that.

So what are you feeling?

You understand what that is and then you problem solve around that potential emotional fear or whatever it might be that's holding them back.

And then I love the point that you made about recognizing that we don't need to come to a conclusion right now.

And it reminds me about back when I was mediating.

They kept statistics about all of the court cases and things like that that we did.

And I was a facilitative mediator, so I wasn't pushing any side one way or another.

So if we didn't get a deal, that wasn't necessarily indicative of a bad mediation, that I'm not pushing for anything.

But there was one thing that I did that increased my settlement rate by 20, even though increasing my settlement rate wasn't the goal, and that was offering more sessions.

So instead of just saying, hey, we're done.

Sorry.

Have good luck in litigation.

Say, all right, no, let's come back.

Let's do it again.

They come back.

Hey, we didn't get a deal.

Let's come back and do it again.

No, let's do it again.

Do sometimes four sessions and then they're bought in and then we get it.

So I think again, going back to what you said, time and space sometimes those are the things you need in order to make a deal.

Yeah.

And I think it allows you can break it up.

You can talk about certain pieces.

You can even be strategic like, hey, we're going to do do this over a couple of conversations.

I think especially like in a workplace setting where it's like your team, where you have to interact with them every day.

Like it is hard to have like this big, heavy conversation where we have to make a big decision, you know, in one 60 minute session, and people have their personal lives going on.

Right.

And so Hey, let's break this up into four parts and each, you know, And kind of like you said, like those micro processes inside of like a big negotiation or a difficult conversation process can save the day, because you're kind of just rinse and repeating something that we know works.

I love this.

Ooh, this is so good.

All right.

Last question.

So let's say somebody out there is a, they live in Franklin County and they're trying to make a good decision about who to vote for for judge.

I can help.

So yes, remind the listeners about you, what you do and how they can get in touch.

Yes, absolutely.

So hannaforjudge.com is the website.

We've got lots of information there.

We're on Facebook, LinkedIn, Stephanie Hanna.

You can find me on LinkedIn and we will be on your ballot.

And I Truly believe I have the experience and skills to you know, do a good job, run an efficient docket.

And all of the things that we talked about are things that I have been working on over the last 15 years, know they work and I know they make a difference.

The other big piece of what I'm passionate about is re-entry.

And so folks who are in prison and getting back into our community.

I've been working to create a re-entry docket at our courthouse, which is essentially like a safety net to help them as they are transitioning back into society.

And it helps with housing and employment and identification and all those things that can sometimes trip people up.

And also I mean high in the sky.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a practical skills component that talked about difficult conversations, right?

And these life skills.

So that's, you know, the vision.

I would love to you know, have a conversation with any listener that was interested and ultimately earn their support.

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I love it.

Stephanie, thank you again for coming back on the show.

Really appreciate it.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Liam, thanks for joining us today.

Excited to be here, Kwame.

Excited to share whatever perspective I can and help enrich some lives.

Yes, it is exciting to have you, my friend.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

My name is Liam Leonard.

I work with... essentially high net worth individuals and invest on their behalf in real estate.

We work primarily on the debt side today, where we're negotiating essentially loans with borrowers that are collateralized or backed by real estate assets.

Most of those being residential homes, but some commercial properties as well.

This is great.

And listen, Liam, my humble friend, please let the listeners know about your podcast too.

So I'm also a podcast host.

That's where I met Kwame originally.

And it's all about the prosperity perspective.

So the idea, our listenership is primarily entrepreneurs.

And the idea is giving stories of people who have been successful, like Kwame, and how they're taking snippets in terms of how they can give back from their journey and how they've been successful to entrepreneurs who are starting to go through that front end of the journey as well.

And so I've been giving back in that regard and trying to help people become more prosperous prosperous uh, with their futures.

This was great.

Yes listeners, make sure to check that out.

I'm a fan of the show but, of course, I'm biased because I've been on it.

But make sure to check that out.

And so there, there are so many different angles.

We could go with Liam too, because he has a background in purchasing, so I know we have a lot of listeners who are in procurement and supply chain world and and people who are in sales listening for insights on how to beat the supply chain folks And their negotiations.

And then obviously, with the investing and the new business that he started.

But today we're going a bit of a different direction, because one of the things that has been consistent in the last few years is inconsistency.

There's a lot of change happening all around the world.

And in our workplaces, it makes it really difficult.

And so I know Liam has gone through some changes in his company.

So what we're going to do is we're going to talk in general about what those changes were.

And then we're going to use this essentially as a case study to discuss how difficult conversations negotiations played a role in making that successful.

So Liam, how about you just start us off by painting the picture for what was happening on your end?

Yeah, excited for this disposition with Attorney Kwame here today.

Yeah.

I say jokingly, of course.

Background.

So we're in the lending business, right?

We give loans primarily.

Our primary business is for real estate investors who are doing fix and flip type property.

So if you've watched HGTV and you see Chip and Joanna Gaines and you see Tarek and his girlfriend and you know love it, hate it, all those shows where they're going in and they're fixing it up.

Typically, they're using money from people like us to go and do that.

Simultaneously, over the last couple of years, we had launched a conventional mortgage business and the idea being some of those people who are rehabbing the houses wanted to keep them for long term rentals or do Airbnb rentals or things like that.

And we wanted the ability to essentially refinance them and create one cohesive experience for them.

What we found is the market began to change, with interest rates on the rise, with decline in the overall stock market.

Some macroeconomic challenges that are creating a lot of volatility is that business the conventional side of the business was always less profitable, but there was a lot of strain on that side of the business, on the supply side, in terms of where we were getting the deals from and how many deals were available.

And this is the conventional mortgage side that I'm talking about.

So these are people who are buying houses or refinancing houses.

Well, when interest rates go from 3% to 5%, no one wants to refinance.

There's no need for them to refinance, right?

So a lot of those transactions essentially dry up.

And then from the purchases you're, you're looking at essentially new homeowners, people who want to go buy another home or a second home.

Well, as interest rates have rise, that's made it more expensive.

And as the overall appreciation in the market has increased, it's made it harder and harder for people to purchase.

You couple that with a market correction and the overall purchase volume, people who are looking for homes is starting to change.

So the last several years where we've been in a huge seller's market where there's been limited inventory and tons of buyers well, the buyer's numbers are starting to shrink and that's making it putting more pressure on that side of the business in general, where you've got the same amount of people trying to do loans for maybe a quarter, maybe even 20, and it starts to put a huge strain on the business.

I know for people that I work with and clients and things like that, and even in our industry things change and they can change really quickly.

And then, as the leader of the company, it's your responsibility to figure out well, what do I do as the tides change?

And that's one of the biggest challenges of leadership is making the tough decision a lot of the times.

And so can you talk us through some of the.

Actually, before we go into the tactical side, I think it would be helpful if you paint the picture of the leadership structure too.

Who else you have to talk to and get on board with these decisions before you actually move?

Because if you are the sole owner, then you can make unilateral decisions, things like that.

But if you have other people playing in the leadership positions too, we've got to include them.

So let's paint that picture too.

Yes, paint that picture.

I am the sole owner.

Uh, a whole nother episode could be.

I exited my partners, uh.

So there was huge negotiations associated with that to become the sole owner, which then allowed me to make these decisions and move quickly uh, when we needed to do that.

So um, that part was a little bit easier.

In terms of org structure right essentially, you've got me at the top, and then i had the head of each of the business unit.

Uh, we've got three kind of core business units.

And then support functions.

Uh, in how we look at the business right, we had our investor side, the people's money that we're taking care of.

We had the private loans uh, that we're doing to the real estate investors, the fix and flippers, and then we had the conventional business um, which was your everyday home purchases, and then support roles, and so that's kind of how we were structured there.

Yes,

Okay.

And so what's happening in my head right now Liam, is I'm taming the lawyer in my brain that wants to investigate the exit of the partners.

But you're right, that is a whole different episode.

And so let's start off with a stakeholder analysis like you just did.

Now we have an idea of who are the interested parties.

And so these are the people who are going to be affected by the change.

And now when we We we have simplified the process as the sole owner.

But even though you you have 100 percent, we still have to have these conversations, too.

So let's now talk about some of the conversations you had to make as you were making these transitions and making these decisions.

Yeah, the biggest decision and the toughest decision was actually getting out of my own way.

And there were two things I had to get out of my own way on.

Number one.

As an entrepreneur, i have very high self-confidence, and so i approach things by thinking i can take it on, i can figure it out.

Um, i'm superman almost that was something i wanted to be able to do, right?

But in that space, you're competing against rocket mortgage right, which is owned by quicken.

You're competing against all your banks uh, you're competing against everything.

You see commercials on where they're spending millions of dollars on a declining market and uh, you kind of scratch your head and you're like okay um, you know would, i want to be in this business.

And so that was a hard part for me as an entrepreneur to say hey, i'm here, i can build it, i can fight, i can gain market share, when in reality, you know, one of my board members put it to me best was you know, is this a business you would go by?

Uh, if you were to sell this business, how much do you think you could sell it for?

Right, and when those answers are i'm not going to buy a business in today's market and i can't really sell this for a any meaningful sum, right the?

The answer was pretty simple right, which was why are you spending time here?

Um, and so that was the first one i had to get over.

The second one was the people.

Uh, we are a people first company.

We want to take care of our folks.

Uh, i want them to be successful, i want them to make tons of money right, i want to be able to continue to offer more and more benefits, as the And again, it was another board conversation where it was do you realize how you're holding these folks back?

And when you change the frame to no, I want to fight for them and keep them on to.

I'm holding them back.

It was like, oh, right.

And I knew the business wasn't as profitable as the other side.

I knew there were market conditions that were impacting, it wasn't investing as much of my time on that side of the business.

I was kind of letting it do its own thing.

And the people who are on that side of the business, who wanted to grow and be successful in their careers, I effectively wasn't supporting anymore.

I wasn't helping them drive process.

I wasn't helping them create differentiation.

I wasn't helping them be competitive in a changing market.

And, as such, made it very difficult for them, if I was to go on the other side to be like why would I be with this company?

This company isn't really supporting me in my goals or my objectives.

And so when I flip that and say I'm holding them back, then that conversation became really easy.

And when you have to have conversations with those folks that you're inevitably letting go because it doesn't fit with the direction you're headed, you can do it genuinely and with a full heart to essentially say look, you're goal is to be a conventional loan officer.

You want to be great at it.

You want to be able to offer those products to the widest range of people.

We can't help you there anymore, right?

Like I've held you back from that.

And I'd love to be able to help you go find your next role with your next company where you can be successful in what you want to do.

But unfortunately, it's not here anymore because we're headed in a different direction.

And still being able to support that person in a meaningful way to achieve their goals is right with acknowledging that you're just not the best person for that anymore.

Right, and it goes back to that hero, savior mentality of being the entrepreneur and that i have to fight with right to say no, i'm going to be the best boss and everyone's better off with me.

Well, that that simply isn't the case.

Right, and being honest and true with yourself to say you know hey, it probably makes sense for you to go a different road was conversations we had to have.

Oh, William, why did we not have this podcast like two years ago?

This would have been very helpful.

This would have been... incredibly helpful for so many reasons.

But I think one of the things here is just recognizing that some of the things that are the best part of you can be supreme liabilities in other areas.

Because as an entrepreneur, you kind have to have that edge on you that I'm willing to take on the world.

And I can do all these types of things.

And you have that.

And that's good.

You have to have that little bit in you.

But then that same mentality can make you believe that you can outthink, outmaneuver your way out of an outmaneuverable situation.

Right,

I cannot win in an unwinnable situation, right?

And so what's fascinating to me about this story is that you needed help to see that in order for you to make the right decision.

And that board helped you to change your perspective so you could do what needed to be done.

And so can you tell us a little bit about your mindset before the board had these conversations with you and then your mindset after?

Let's go deeper into that.

Yeah.

So headed into the board conversation in the back of my mind, I knew something wasn't right.

Right.

And uh, There was an element where the business was, you know, hovering around, break even, profitable some months, unprofitable other months, when you're looking at it in a silo.

We changed some of the leadership positions to hopefully get someone new in there who could deliver on process, deliver on business building to be competitive.

And it just, it wasn't working, right?

And the idea of bringing someone in there was so that I wouldn't have to invest the time, because that's not where my focus was.

So there was something back of mine with me that was always like I'm holding on to something that is holding me back almost.

Right.

But it was the people and it was myself.

And so going into the board meeting.

Right.

I essentially had a conversation of like hey, you know, this is something I think maybe we should do.

And, you know, here's what a tentative transaction plan, a transition plan looks like.

And the board basically looked at me and they're like, you know what you have to do.

You just need to do it uh, right.

And they walked me through a couple questions and, you know, one board member was like uh, he asked a couple questions and then he goes okay, it's a done deal, we all agree, like you need to just go do this.

And it was like two minutes right, like no more conversation needed, you just need to go.

And it was like huh, right.

And so the challenge for me in the entrepreneurial side right, it is, it's lonely at the top and there's no one to help uh, act as that sounding board.

And so i created a board to effectively be that sounding board.

And that's exactly how that dynamic worked out right, in terms of helping me understand some of these reframes of what's holding me back uh, and keeping me and the company at mediocrity, keeping others at mediocrity, where i'm holding them back from what they want to achieve, and really aligning and going.

You know where we can be most successful.

So the conversation with the board i've prepped and uh honest right, there's no benefit to me for them to sugarcoat things, and so that's where they come back.

And essentially in two minutes, so you need to cut an entire division.

And how quick can you do it?

Wow um, this is, this is incredible.

And so i heard this great saying.

They said the the universe whispers before it yells.

And i had.

I had another.

I had breakfast with a buddy, Lance Tyson, who was a guest on the podcast this morning, and he who was guest on the podcast,

And he said, yeah, I have a board.

And he described essentially the same scenario, like a similar scenario that you did.

Like, hey, this helps me to think better, like think more thoroughly.

And now you're saying it.

So I'm like, OK, so the American Negotiation Institute will get a board.

I think it's settled.

So thank you for this.

And listeners, no, I haven't forgotten about you.

I will be your advocate, but I'm taking my coaching right now.

Okay.

And the other thing too, now let's make this actionable for everybody else.

When it comes to being really persuasive.

One of the things that I've realized is that you need to be persuadable.

You need to be willing and open to be persuaded.

And I love the fact that you, even though you have that entrepreneurial edge where you believe in yourself, You also believe in your own limitations as a regular mortal should.

Right.

And that's why you have the board.

You have them there for a purpose to give you hard truths.

And then they gave you the hard truths and you were humble enough to accept it and then move on.

And and I think this is something that is kind of people brush over this a lot.

Hey, you get good advice.

Listen to it.

But it's really not that simple.

And I know for me, I'll just speak for myself here.

I know there were times in my life where I people would give me good advice, but I would resist.

And I had to grow a little bit more in order to accept that advice, even though it didn't feel good, and then make the decision.

And so for you, can you tell us a little bit about what helped you to get into that mentality where you could accept hard truths and then and make the necessary adjustments?

For me, that goes all the way back to childhood and part of my upbringing.

My dad was born and raised in Hong Kong and brought very much a if you've heard of Tiger Mom type of persona to how I grew up.

I've got two younger brothers who grew up in the same kind of environment and we just pushed each other all the time.

And so there was no place for weakness.

There was no place for failure.

There was no place for you couldn't hide.

So if you came up with an excuse or you came up with any self-pity, you were berated and you were driven until you actually made a change or you acknowledge that something in this was for you.

For me.

We didn't talk a lot about the background, but I played soccer at a very high level growing up, represented the us over in europe and a couple tournaments and down in south america um, representing youth national kind of interest uh, and then decided i went to yale for economics and so you see the tiger component that's coming out right, like only the best in you will be successful um, and achieving, you know, acceptance from my, my parents, as well as uh, my reaching my personal best um, we're always first and foremost, and that allowed and instilled in me this element of coachability where uh, i'm really bright and i'm really smart in a lot of areas, but i can't be that person everywhere.

So how do i take the knowledge and learning from everyone else and and bring it all together right and know that someone else might have something uh to offer?

In fact, I have a sticky note that was on my desk for a long time, which was like find the nugget that everyone has to offer you.

I try to take away something in every conversation, regardless of walk of life, where they're coming from.

There's something you can gain from all of that.

And when you take that perspective in, you're constantly looking at ways to improve yourself.

That coupled with religious background for me.

And so as a Christian, I'm imperfect.

And when you acknowledge that you're imperfect and you there's only one way to continue to improve.

Right.

And setting the baseline effectively low and saying hey, I'm going to build up from there has been very successful for me.

I grew up in the corporate world.

I worked at Nestle, Pepsi, T-Mobile in order to be successful in the team.

You've got to be.

You've got to know how to negotiate your way around politics.

You've got to know how to maneuver and take feedback.

You've got to know which one to be actionable upon, which one to leave at the wayside.

And so I had a lot of training to prepare myself for that decision going into the board and that conversation with the board.

And even going back right in the board selection and the conversations with the board.

They're looking for that coachability too, right.

Because these are guys who are giving their time, primarily their time.

That's their most valuable resource, right?

And their experience to you.

And if you are not open to the suggestions they're giving, they're not going to be there.

There's no reason for them to be there, right?

If you think you've got it all figured out or you're good and you don't take the feedback and you don't honestly, um and authentically try to take it to heart, you're not going to have a board that's actually going to be successful for you, and so that's how i was able to get the members on the board in the first place.

Right was to be able to say This is how I think I fit in.

This is where my limitations are.

This is where your expertise is, where I think you can add a ton of value that I want to tap into and creating this mutual situation where they can learn and they can be part of an amazing company who's growing really fast and be rewarded for that.

And on the flip side, I get to tap into their time and experience.

This is a great answer.

And I'll synthesize why it's such a great answer in just one sentence.

It was learned.

I would have hated for you to have said, oh, I've just always been this way.

I'm like, Liam, what good are you?

But yes, really what you're demonstrating is through your experience, your various life experiences, you learned that this is the key to success.

And it really is.

And when we are vulnerable enough and humble enough to actually accept what other people say, especially in a difficult conversation, it sets us up to be more persuasive down the road, because we're essentially showing them how they should interact with us.

At some point, maybe not today, I will say something of value.

And I hope you respond the same way.

So Liam, I love this answer.

This is really good.

Yeah.

And for me, it's about failure.

I embrace and I love failure because failure leads to the learning.

And without the failure, you don't learn because you think you're doing everything right.

And so I find those moments of uncomfortableness and failure so that I can grow and develop.

It's the only way that I can develop the skills that have gotten me to where I am and will get me to that next level.

Absolutely.

And you know what's funny about this, and we'll see where the rest of the conversation goes to, because I did not expect it to go this way, right.

You know, talking about the ability to be persuaded, like the humility and learning and listening, like that's so critical.

I didn't expect it to go this way, but I'm really appreciative that it did because it's necessary.

And also it shows us this really important fact because, But if we were to think about this just as a – almost like, let's use it as a case study back at Yale when you're in business school.

If you were to analyze this case study and say what is the decision that this entrepreneur, this unnamed entrepreneur, should make in this moment, it would be probably pretty easy to analyze and say yeah, we need to cut this division, focus on the parts of the business that are profitable.

But when you are that person, it's very difficult to to make that assessment because you're so close and you have those emotional connections.

Then when you had that conversation, it opened you up to it, you were willing to do it and now we have these conversations with the people on the team that you care about that are difficult But not necessarily strategically challenging.

Can you talk about your mindset going into it, how you felt emotionally and how the conversations went?

Yeah, for me, really level-headed, right?

Because, at the end of the day, I knew it was in the best interest of the person that I was talking to.

And I don't approach a conversation until I realize what's in the best interest of that person.

And once you establish that it's in the best interest of that person not to be with your company, it's very easy to have the conversation to say you know this probably isn't the right place for you.

And how do I support you to get where you want to go?

What does that look like?

Do you know what if you know where you want to be?

Let me help you.

I've got a very vast network.

I know a ton of people.

I can help support you to get you where you want to go.

And so those are easy conversations to essentially have a strategically, because you've aligned on where the value is for them and for you.

And then emotionally, you're approaching it as very grounded and very heartfelt, coming with the best interest of that person in mind.

One of those conversations was led by a manager who didn't quite feel that peace, felt like he could still save the person and wanted that person to still be here.

That conversation did not go well because they didn't realize that the value and where that fit and hadn't come to grips personally with having that conversation.

And so then, once you start getting asked questions from the person you're having that difficult conversation with, you don't have a foundation for which to respond in any meaningful way.

And the conversation deteriorates rapidly.

But when you're there, right?

And one of the people asked me, they were like, you mean I need to find a different job?

And I'm like, you get to find a different job with a company that's going to best support you.

And I'd love to help you, right?

If you want to stay in that area.

I've got three or four recommendations that I can make for you and get you set up right.

You're a strong performer and want you to continue to succeed.

And so transitioning it to them, realizing it's their best interest, is huge and helps them feel and helps ease the transition.

Right.

People don't like the idea of someone telling them that they're not worth it, right?

At the end of the day, I think that's what it boils down to, right?

We strive to be worth it.

So we do a lot of things to gain favor from people or positive impression that take us in different directions.

And I think on the other side, when you hear something that you feel is like you're not worth it or you are being let go or this job is no longer here, it's really tough.

And I think it's just an acknowledgement that You're delivering tough news and people need time to process, and people process information very differently, and so you can't approach the conversation the same way for every single person.

It's gotta be tailor made to how they're going to respond, right?

And so that emotional or defensive person.

Great.

We need to deliver the news and then we need to have a follow up conversation right to, to help them understand and see and give them some time to process all of it, right.

That's very different than the analytical person who you can probably walk through how this is going to be better for them on that call and they walk away being like makes perfect sense.

When do i go right?

Uh different right so um, i think, but it's being grounded.

If i was to synthesize, be grounded in you know you're doing the best thing for them uh, and what that looks like right, and even people who aren't performing right.

Eventually I get to that spot of this is the best thing for them, right?

Either they're not addressing things in their home life or their professional life that need to be addressed, and they're using this as a crutch.

Well, if I continue to be that crutch for them and allow them to continue on accepting mediocrity, how does that benefit them right?

How has their self-worth ever increased, right?

How are they ever going to resolve the problems, right?

And it's not my job to solve the problem for them.

But I sure certainly shouldn't be enabling them with a problem that you know I've been able to identify or see.

Oh man.

This is so good.

I feel like this has turned into a therapy session for me.

This is hitting home in ways that you have no idea.

This is great.

And I know a lot of the listeners are having that same kind of revelation, because you've simplified it.

Because what's interesting about this is that a lot of times, people come to the content, to the TED Talk, the books whatever, and they're looking for a silver bullet.

Like, how do I have this conversation?

How do I have the conversation?

And what they're looking for is an answer that they want to hear.

They're looking for the solution that they want, but the solution that they want doesn't exist, because what they're looking for is really something that predominantly and primarily assuages their emotional discomfort.

I know I need to have this difficult conversation.

I know exactly what decision I need to make.

I know exactly how this needs to end, but I am terrified of this conversation and I'm afraid of how they're going to respond.

And I don't want to put them in distress.

So Kwame, can you come up with a solution that makes me emotionally okay with whatever happens and the other person respond really well to it?

No, I can't do that.

And you articulated it really well because these conversations, strategically speaking, are not that complex.

They're just emotionally very, very heavy.

You have to tailor it to the person who's in front of you.

Different people will respond differently.

But there's no way to make this palatable and enjoyable for the people involved.

And once we come to terms with that, then we can do what we need to do.

And then I love this point. focusing on what is best for both parties.

You have to protect your interests, of course, but then you realize that, even though they might not like the decision you're making in the moment, you can still sleep well at night, knowing that, in the long run, this is the best decision for them too.

I think this is a brilliant approach, Leah.

Yeah, when you come to the conversation from a place of power meaning you have clarity on what you're doing, why you're doing it, why it fits, how they fit in their reaction is not a input into that consideration set right, because you don't control their actions right from a place of power, it's they will react the way that they will react and yes, there's a way i'd prefer them to react, but at the end of the day, i'm very confident in why i've made the decision, how making it that i'm looking out for them, and if they don't see that, that's unfortunate.

But I feel really good about how I've approached it.

Oh, I love this.

Liam, brother, this is good.

This is very, very good.

And I know listeners are saying, man, it stinks that Liam has to go.

I wish he had a podcast or something.

Can you remind them about the business and how they can get in touch with you?

And about the show, of course.

Yeah.

So to listen to my podcast you can go to the prosperity perspective dot com and find the podcast there where we're talking with successful entrepreneurs to give tips to those entrepreneurs who are going through something similar or early stages themselves, to get in touch with me.

You can reach out to me on the show there or you can send me an email at Liam dot Leonard at DML cap dot com.

Kwame can put that into the show notes for you so you can get it there.

But happy to chat with people who want to know more or, if I can help in any way enrich your lives, would be happy to do so.

Liam, I appreciate it.

This was great.

You have a good one.

Thanks, Kwame.

Take care.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.

A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Patrick, thanks for joining us today.

It's great to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, it's my pleasure.

Well, how about we start off by telling the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure.

So by day, I'm a venture capitalist.

I invest in companies in the United States and Latin America.

But I'm also known as the guy who invented the term FOMO, which is short for fear of missing out.

And so I just came out with a book that's called Fear of Missing Out Practical Decision Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice.

And I'm the host of a podcast called FOMO Sapiens, which is distributed by Harvard Business Review.

Fantastic.

Yeah, we're excited to have you, because I think this book is necessary now more than ever, when we're overwhelmed by choice and there are a lot of big decisions that we need to make.

And so I'm excited to give the listeners some really robust and powerful frameworks to help them to make better decisions.

With that, let's start off with the definitions, just so we can have an open dialogue about it.

Listeners, I know you're used to a pretty standard three-part framework for this, but since we're talking about a book and there are a lot of different directions that we could go with this, I didn't feel like we would be giving it justice if we limited it in that regard.

What we'll do is we'll just start off with the operational definitions and then just have an open conversation.

And so with that, FOMO and FOBO.

Let me give you these definitions.

And just so for folks who've heard about FOMO and many of you have there was another term that I invented at the same time, called FOBO.

And I wrote about both of them in an article in the Harvard Business School student newspaper.

I wrote this article about my experience as a student there.

And so the two terms that I introduced in that article, FOMO and FOBO fear of missing out and fear of a better option.

So let me give you each definition.

FOMO is an anxiety provoked by the fear that there's something better happening than we're doing at the moment.

And it's also a fear of being excluded from a positive group experience.

So it's about, you know, it's about thinking there's something better out there for you.

It's kind of aspirational, but it's also about not wanting to be excluded from the group or the herd, as I call it.

And so as a result, we feel the stress and we want to try to do everything all the time.

And of course that's impossible.

Phobo is is totally different.

Phobo means fear of a better option, and the idea there is that when we're choosing between completely acceptable things, we do not want to get number two or number three, we want to choose the very best and therefore we sort of keep looking for the perfect thing.

We're optimizing, and it also is a situation in which we we value option value in and of itself rather than valuing that we actually choose something.

So in that situation, rather than trying to do everything, you do nothing at all.

You're paralyzed.

This is great.

I'm so excited for this.

And now, as it relates to decision making, when we're talking about those two terms, what are the negative impacts that they have on decision making?

Yeah.

So let's take each one of them one by one.

Let's start with FOMO.

So when you're feeling FOMO, As you might recall from the definition I just gave, it's the perception that there's something better out there.

Perception can be deception.

It may be that this is a classic example.

You go on social media and you see some person's life, their job, their vacation, whatever that is you know, and you start to think well OK, that looks so much better than what I'm doing right now.

Now, you have no way of knowing if it's better.

If you had perfect information, that would be a different thing.

But here you have this information asymmetry and you are filling the gap between reality and whatever is going on in your head with a bunch of projection and a bunch of sort of just air.

And that's what creates the anxiety.

And so, when it comes to making decisions, if you are looking at something and you have no idea actually, if it lives up to what it's sort of billed as, then you can be making decisions based on bad data.

And so you know.

For example, you say, you see somebody in there, you know they live in some community they live in.

It seems like everybody's moving to Denver.

Okay.

And you see that, oh, Denver looks so great.

Unless you go there and live there and you have no idea.

And so it can cloud your decision making.

And unfortunately, you can end up living somebody else's dream and not your own, or coveting somebody else's life, even if it's not actually going to make you happy.

Now, on the FOBO side, it's even worse, because FOBO is a situation in which we're waiting for that perfect moment, perfect thing to come along, so that we have a decision that is made for us.

It's like a riskless decision.

But as we all know, there is no such thing as a perfect decision.

You can never know.

Again, information asymmetry, we don't know if something is going to be the best, right?

And so, as a result, we tend to delay decision-making, in hopes that somehow you'll have some new piece of data that'll make it easy to make that decision.

And so really, first of all, you delay decision-making.

Second of all, you all of the other people around you who need you to decide, you frustrate them.

But the thing that's really I've noticed that I think is particularly maybe not obvious, but very damaging is that we make an assumption that when we're deciding and we have options, that somehow, the longer we wait, we'll continue to add to our options.

But in fact, you may lose some of those options.

And so you might end up if you wait too long with no good options at all.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

And What it sounds like to me is we almost have to come to terms with the imperfection that is in front of us when it comes to decision making.

Because like you said, I think you articulated it perfectly.

We're looking for riskless decisions and we're looking for the perfect life.

But neither of those exist.

And so, for people who are trying to make better decisions when it comes to those two terms in particular, what are some steps that they can take to improve their decision making processes?

Well, the good news is that it's in many instances, much easier than it may seem to overcome these two things.

So one of the important things that I talk about in the book and I also made a TED video called How to Make Faster Decisions is that when we have FOMO and FOBO, because there's all of this emotion and stress, we tend to feel like even the small decisions in life they gain this sort of increased importance.

And so therefore, like you go on Netflix, right?

Netflix, it's, there are 7,000 choices and it's not an important decision, but if you're trying to make a decision about what you're going to watch on TV, it can take up a lot of time and energy.

And that is terrible and a waste of your time, right?

Treat yourself better than that.

And so therefore, the first step to doing this is to basically what I like to say is there's only three types of decisions in life high stakes, low stakes and no stakes.

High stakes decisions are things that are important.

They're going to have long-term implications on your health, your wealth, your family.

It's like, where do you live?

Who do you marry?

Where do you work?

Those are the things that really require you to put in a lot of time and effort because you want to get it right.

Low stake things are things that you probably won't remember, having made the decision in about a month.

And it's sort of like which sofa, which printer, you know these kinds of things that they require some thinking.

It's not that you just sort of willy nilly decide anything, but they're not the kinds of things that you want to spend tons of time on.

And the final one is the, is the no stakes decision.

That's something you won't remember.

Having decided in a couple of days, like you know, what should I have for breakfast or which socks should I wear things.

They just don't matter.

And so the first step to overcoming FOMO and FOBO is when it comes to low stakes and no stakes decisions, you must outsource them.

So what I do, for example, with no stakes decisions, it's like should I have the chicken or the fish if I can't decide?

And, by the way, most of these decisions you'll.

You'll decide without having any issues, but we all know that we spend some time uh, on these things.

Once in a while we get stuck, and so, rather than get stuck and delay and spend time on things that don't matter, i outsource, for example, to my watch.

So i actually will.

You know, if i can't decide, should i go for a run today or not?

You know that's a classic one.

I look down on my watch the left side is yes, the right side is a no.

I see where the second hand is, and then its decision is made for me, and i have been doing this for 20 years And it's basically.

It simplifies your life and it takes you out of the equation, because you're the one who's injecting the drama into something that is inconsequential.

And so, you know, that's going to be different for every person.

It sort of reminds me of, with the classic Steve Jobs strategy of, you know, wearing the same clothes every day.

Well, for him, that was a no stakes decision.

If you're if you're a fashionista, obviously you would not outsource that to your watch.

But but it's that kind of thinking that allows you the space to deal with the bigger things in life.

Absolutely.

And for you listeners out there, I'll tell you this.

For me.

That's my five-star point of the podcast episode Patrick, because I think you just saved me, over the course of my life, a lot of time.

Oh, yeah.

I'm realizing that I'm spending a lot of time making bad decisions.

And, as you were talking, we're not bad decisions, inefficient decisions um because, as we were talking, i'm sure you noticed a few times i was just smiling because i knew, oh my gosh, i should have.

I wish i had this interview yesterday, because i spent about 20 minutes with my wife trying to figure out what we were going to watch on netflix and we ended up not doing anything and just doing work and checking emails instead, And so yeah, this is incredible.

And I really like the idea of distinguishing between high stakes, low stakes, and no stakes.

Because when you think about it, you're absolutely right.

Low stakes and no stakes, we're not going to remember that.

And I think that's really the key to analyzing a lot of our human experiences memories, because the lived experience is only as important as it when you consider it over the course of our entire life, looking backwards, in retrospect.

And so yeah, it helps us to make better decisions in general, because now we're allocating mental energy where it's most needed on the high stakes decision.

Precisely.

And, you know, it's funny.

I'm glad that you, that this has resonated with you, because When I first started talking about I mean I've been doing Ask the Watch since I was a freshman in college.

So it's just something that I, it's been like a life hack that I found really powerful.

But then as I told people about it, they seemed to resonate.

And so when I started writing about it, I remember thinking, like you know, people aren't going to take me seriously because this just seems like so simple that it's almost like it just looks like well, it doesn't take, you know, a phd to come up with that one sunny boy, right.

But the thing is that it's it's one that people love the most because we can, you can try it out in an hour and you can see it works for you.

And the thing is, i've never gone against the watch in my entire, because i never asked i don't ask the watch, like you know um, you know, should i um, you know who should i vote for?

Like it's not, i'm not gonna do that.

That would be Not a good idea.

But when it comes to these little things, getting a decision and getting and moving on with your life is way more important.

And you just move on.

Absolutely.

So let's talk then about the high stakes decisions.

When we're actually having those bigger decisions, who am I going to vote for?

Who am I going to marry?

In negotiation context, should I accept this deal or should I go with something else?

What are some things that we could utilize to improve our ability to make good decisions?

Yeah.

And it's such a good, I love it.

Of course, this is a show about negotiation.

And so you know you can have the.

If you think about FOMO, FOMO negotiation, it's like FOMO is like I want to have all, like I want every bell and whistle.

This is going to be a 90,000 page document because I'm going to, my lawyers cover everything.

Right.

We've all, we all, we all know those people, that counterparties, and on the FOBO side it's like I won't ever settle ever.

Like nothing is good enough for me.

I'm just going to hold out until basically, you give me the keys to the castle, which is you know, we all know, is some people do that.

And it's not fun to deal with them.

And it's not a productive way to live your life.

You just end up alienating everybody.

So let's take these.

You know, whereas these earlier, with the no stakes and low stakes decisions, FOMO and FOBO, you treat them the same.

Here, we have specific strategies for each one.

So FOMO is the first one.

As you recall when I gave you the definition, FOMO is about this aspiration.

It's this thing that you perceive to be better.

It's about this fear of being excluded, left out of the herd.

You basically have to attack each of those in order to come up with a solution.

When we talk about this aspirational perception thing.

That's all about.

You have to do the homework and figure out what is my criteria and do these options actually match up?

And what is really going on?

Like, yeah, it looks great from the outside, but let me do the research.

And figure out, is this going to sort of live up to what I think I see?

You know, it's like, for example, the example of moving to a new city.

It's like I'm thinking about moving out of New York City.

And do I want to move to Atlanta or Denver or San Francisco?

Well, they all look really beautiful on social media, but I would go to the community.

I would see if I could afford to live there.

I'd take a look at the housing stock.

You know, just build up a base of knowledge so that I'm not making decisions based out of anxiety.

I'm making decisions based out of fact based thinking.

Once you get through that point and you've replaced fear with facts and you've got good information, the second thing you need to do is think about your motivations.

Am I doing this because I'm afraid of being left out of something?

Am I doing it because I don't want to let somebody down?

What is the motivation?

And if the motivation for it is that truly it's something you want to do, then great.

Then you know that you're doing it for the right reasons.

If your motivation is based on external factors and pressures that you feel from outside, then you know that you're dealing with FOMO.

And so that's the process.

I mean, I really lay it out in the book, but those are the building blocks of how it works.

Now with FOMO.

So remember, that is, you know the idea you, you're waiting for the perfect thing to come along and you're collecting options, and until you get there.

So here what's interesting is and the research shows that it's actually um, the problem here isn't that your desire to maximize, it's the way you go about doing it right.

So like, there are plenty of very decisive people who want the best, and so they've figured out how to do this.

But for the rest of us who struggle with this the the, the process that i describe is really it's.

It's a process designed to force you to eliminate from the pile, because the problem happens when you, when you keep going back to the same set of options, you never eliminate any of them, and so the, the whole process is about letting go of what you can have, being thankful you had it sort of like marie kondo style, but then letting go with it, eliminating it permanently until you get down to that, to that final option that you choose, and so you'll do the same kind of work to like understand what the options are and remove sort of the speculation and get as much facts as possible, but then you will use that to vet them and then eliminate them and then choose a winner.

This is great.

And let's go over those two things and get a little bit deeper.

One of the things that I really liked with your approach to addressing FOMO was figuring out your criteria.

And I really liked the fact that you highlighted the word my criteria, because a lot of times we're making decisions based on other people's criteria.

And here's the thing that's really interesting that I've seen with people making decisions and struggling to make those decisions in the past is that they're not able to distinguish between what it is that they want for themselves and what it is that other people want for them.

And so what are some things that you would suggest people can do to increase their level of self-awareness so they can start to distinguish between what truly they want on the inside versus what's coming from the outside?

It's such a good question.

And one of the things that I think is very powerful, that I recommend and that I do myself, is I always put it to paper.

I always you know, when we're thinking in our heads, you know, you go for that walk and you're running around thinking. it's that's great and it's it's necessary but it's unstructured and you would never for example go into a meeting at work and just blurt out a bunch of ideas now you come in with a powerpoint deck or the memo right and so similarly you have to hold yourself accountable when it comes to figuring out what you want and what's incredible about about paper and writing and maybe you know it doesn't have to be printed up but you know on screen is that um when you put something you commit something to writing it's very hard to sell a bad argument, right?

It's just like you read it and you're like, this is completely illogical.

And so I encourage people, right?

And so I, because it's kind of like when you read I imagine it's like when you're a high school teacher and you get all the essays from the students you're like well, this is boy, this makes zero sense.

And so it's just hard to be to make a compelling argument if you don't have your facts and facts in a row.

And so that I think is a very simple way to do that.

And the second part is, So show it to people.

So take what you've written and send it to somebody and say, what do you think?

Do you think this makes sense?

Do you think that I am being honest with myself?

Does this square with what you know about me and my life?

And in doing that, of course, you then expose your ideas to even more sunlight.

And of course, we all know that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Right.

You know, it's always easier to call somebody else on their nonsense than it is for us to call ourselves on our nonsense too.

So I think that's a great way to get a more objective perspective, especially when you're talking to people that you trust, who are willing to really let you know what they see.

I think that's great.

And then when it comes to FOBO, the process of elimination, I think that's a powerful way to do it.

And so One of the things that potentially could happen is that people say all right Patrick, I see what you're saying.

All right.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to eliminate options and eventually make the right one.

But then maybe what ends up happening is they still try to cling on to that FOBO by doing this very, very slowly, in the hopes that something comes up and some divine inspiration or something happens.

And so, for those people who try to follow your advice, but do it slowly, do you have any specific tips for them?

Yeah, well, those people, then we really need to help them out.

I think it comes down to some of the same stuff.

So again, I encourage you to commit it to paper.

And then if you are having trouble, one of the reasons why you have FOBO is because this is something that you it's a learned behavior, right?

And so you may get stuck.

And so again you got to call in the Calvary.

You got to get help.

But this is where it's kind of interesting.

So you could actually self-sabotage by asking 50 people, right?

And then it's like, you get a million different perspectives and that gets you in trouble.

So what I tell people is five people, maximum five or three odd number, they can break the tie.

You just bring in other people because think about I mean, I think about my decision-making processes in business.

So I've worked in private equity firms and venture capital firms making investments.

We have committees, and committees are great because you bring in.

Sometimes people say stupid things and it's annoying and you're like, you know, like where is your head at.

Did you read the memo I wrote?

Right.

There's, there's those people, but in general, it's like, oh, wow, what a great idea.

Your perspective, you push back on me.

Oh, you saw a different angle that I missed.

And so therefore you get a better sort of outcome.

And so I encourage people to do the same thing.

Go to people.

Don't just go to anybody, go to people who you think are particularly, you know, well-versed.

So, for example, If I were choosing college, you know, like in high school, I knew where I wanted to go.

I didn't struggle.

I was like, I'm going to Georgetown or nothing.

But had I, had I not gone in and was choosing other schools, you know I would have the right thing to do, of course.

And this is obvious is like, go talk to people who went to the school.

Right.

And so that can be that same sort of sort of thinking.

You know it's.

It's great to just have advice from people who know you and care about you, but if they don't have domain expertise, like they're not the best people.

You want people who are dispassionate but are knowledge-based.

That's great.

Oh, I really like that approach.

I really like that approach.

And so when it comes to flipping this, so we have FOMO and FOBO, now we can make better decisions.

Now from the perspective of a negotiation or a persuasive process.

How can we use those same terms for persuasive purposes?

Yeah.

This is the part that I never thought about when I was a student writing about this, because I just thought it was a satirical article.

But then as you get into the world and you're negotiating a business transaction, for example, I consider I always say that venture capital is like a game of foes, because you know the company wants to create FOMO.

So the investor wants to invest in the company.

And then the investor always wants a little more information like oh, send me, you know next month's results.

They want because they want to like de-risk the investment by having more info.

So It's this very funny dance that they do.

And in fact, of course, in our broader world, like brands try to create FOMO.

So we spend money on their products.

Right.

And then and then other people try to create FOMO by, for example, exploding offers.

Are that's all about creating FOMO?

It's like you know you have, you have five days and then it's gone forever, right?

So you're like, oh my god, if you know I I, how will I?

You know you, you are, you are incented to make a decision.

And so, as I think about creating FOMO, it's really about so there's a bunch of different ways to do this, but one of the ways to do it, and one of the ways that brands actually kind of get us, is to create social proof.

So, for example, you know, when you think about like um, consumer brands.

They always get the celebrity in there to make it look amazing.

You know to like highlight the product.

You can do that with the things you do.

If you can get people to talk about it, endorse your product, if you can get your product placed somewhere.

You know it's like the minute people see something in the grocery store, everybody thinks you know all of a sudden that you're like a global corporation.

And so thinking about in negotiation how you can enhance the product in that information asymmetry.

You can use that to your advantage to make your sort of position look better or more tenable.

Then you'll be at an advantage.

Now, when it comes to FOBO, what you need to do is you need to create a set of conditions where people don't just try to hold out forever.

And so let me give you a great example.

I was investing in a company and they said, listen, here's the deal.

The valuation that of this company that you're investing in is $6 million.

And then for the month after that, it's going to be 6.5.

And then it goes up to seven.

And so everybody invests because they want to get the valuation.

So it really creates an incentive for people to move.

And so I think that's a helpful thing to do is create boundaries for people.

And you have to be willing to stick by those boundaries, of course.

You can't say, oh, we said it was going to go to seven, but we're not going to stick to that.

Of course, you have to stand by them.

But it's a very powerful way to keep people from just hoarding options.

Oh, that's great.

I like that example.

And so one of the things on our end, let's use that exact same example because I want to go deeper.

So we put those boundaries and then what if they say, but Patrick, I want to be a nice person.

I could potentially say listen.

I said it was going to go up to 65, but listen for you.

Out of a courtesy for you, I'm going to go ahead and keep it at six for you.

Can you articulate to the listeners why not standing firm on that boundary is so important.

Yeah, because what happens is people who have FOBO.

I mean maybe there could be a condition where you say or an example where you say well listen, the reason the guy's internet was down, he couldn't send the money, or whatever.

And there are always special situations.

But what I have found in my lived experience and in my research is that people who have FOBO it's a condition, it's chronic.

Their inability to commit is inside of their DNA.

And therefore you cannot show the mercy because you're just feeding into that behavior.

And when they take you seriously, they won't do that to you again.

And so you've just got to create that culture.

I'm so excited.

Yes, because you're spot on.

You're spot on.

Because here's the thing.

We have to recognize that the game is not just it's not a single shot deal.

This is an iterative game.

We're going to come back to the table and have these similar discussions with the same people.

And even if we don't have the same discussion with the same person, we're going to have a similar discussion with a similar person who might be in contact with that person as well, and so we have to think about the impact persuasively, that our um our, the moves that we make at the table are going to have at our subsequent negotiations.

Yeah, and you know what happens, of course, is i.

I i've actually tried this out myself because and you don't have to have the leverage there was a a very well-known podcast host who i'm not going to say who it is, but But somebody who really annoyed me, who said oh, we want you to come on our show.

And I was very excited.

And then they kept canceling and delaying.

And you know I wanted to say to them oh, you know, I send those polite follow up and never getting any response to the emails I would send.

And so one day I just said, you know what?

I wrote back and I said, because of all the delays, I won't be coming on your show.

And that was it.

And, you know, then they came back and we're like, oh, we're so sorry.

And, but they never, they never, they, you know, they said they might reschedule and they never did.

And I, but I had decided, I was like, forget it.

And so the reality is this person does it to everybody.

I've heard now stories from all these people in the industry.

And so it's like, you know what?

I don't want to deal with you because you even if it would be nice to have been on your show, you created so much toxicity and frustration for me and distracted me from the Other shows that I could have done 10 more podcasts with the time I spent trying to deal with your show.

I moved to vacation for this person.

You know what I mean?

So I know it was really an extreme case, but I'm just happy to know.

And when my second book came out, you know what I didn't do?

I didn't go pitch that show because I knew it was a waste of my time.

Right.

And see, this is what's really interesting too, because it's not just about the objective outcomes as it relates to the particular deal.

It's also about the psychological benefits that you get from being more decisive.

And what I found in my life is that once I make a decision, the benefits the emotional and psychological benefits I get from the closure of are so significant that I say to myself man, I'm glad I made this decision.

Hypothetically, even if this was a bad decision, I'm glad I'm done with this process, right?

And there's a benefit there that I think people often miss.

And then when it comes to from the outside looking in, people follow decisive leaders.

And even if a person is decisive and they make the wrong decision, I feel like that willingness to commit garners so much respect from the followers that they're willing to forgive it and still follow, because they say wow, this is one of the few people that's actually going to take the step of committing and moving us in the right direction.

A hundred percent.

And to what you say there, you're absolutely right.

And one of the things we forget is that when you make a decision, you then move on to the next decision and the next decision.

So you actually open doors for yourself.

And if you don't, then you never have, you're sort of stuck there.

So that's really critical.

And the second thing about being decisive, I mean, let's think about what's happened.

The people who were decisive, you know, think about the governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine or Andrew Cuomo or Gavin Newsom, these governors who put a very specific line out there, even though it's probably like, you know, a lot of people didn't want to do what they were saying, but because they laid down a decisive, clear message, people flocked to them.

So we never.

You know, it takes so little in this day and age to be a leader, but it's incredible how few people do it.

And so when people do it, you see the response right away that it's extremely well received.

And so you know, obviously the basic point here is nobody ever said like of a great leader, like wow, you're such a great leader.

You're so indecisive.

Of course not, right?

So it's about whether it's in our families or in our businesses or in the political spectrum being decisive.

Obviously having used a process, and it's not just being decisive and just picking things out of the air, but being a thoughtfully decisive person is so powerful.

Yeah, absolutely.

And again thinking about it as persuasive leadership.

Like you said, people flock to them, which is a critical part of being a leader.

You can't just lead nobody.

So that's a big part.

But then I really liked what you said about once you make a decision, it leads to another decision.

And I think about, for instance, Kobe Bryant's a game where he scored, I think, 81 points.

And people are like, wow, he scored so many points.

And I stop and I say to myself, how many times did he have to shoot to score that many times?

And you're going to accumulate more points the more good decisions you make.

And you have to be willing to accept the reality that sometimes you're going to have to make bad decisions along the way.

But if you get to a point where you're being more decisive, that puts you in a position to make more good decisions and accumulate more momentum and accumulate more wins over the course of your career.

Yeah.

I think it's, it's, it's, it's so, if you think about entrepreneurs, right, how many times they, the decisions that they make in a day, if they can't do this quickly.

And that's why.

That's why entrepreneurs come and beat big companies, because big companies there they get stuck and there's like too much process and there's too many people.

And so then the pure play startup comes in and eats their lunch, precisely because of what you're saying.

Yeah.

And so let's say, if we're in a company that has started to slow down, so let's say we have a situation where there's a lot of bureaucracy and it's really tough for people to make a decision, make change and those type of things.

If you're trying to persuade from within and make changes, what can you do to help move that decision making process forward?

Yeah, so i think one of the biggest things that happens that really impedes um thinking is there's two things.

Number one is we get back to that sort of perception deception information, asymmetry thing is that people start to use their cognitive biases instead of actually looking at the set of facts.

And so I had a friend who wrote a book called Everybody Lies, Seth Stevens Davidovitz.

And his book is about big data, but he's an expert in big data.

But he's like, yeah, I do all these big data analyses.

But the reality is that anybody in the room Who knows what's going on could ask me a question that would.

If they had the confidence to ask me a smart question, they could probably prove me wrong.

But I'm hiding, you know, a lot of people hide behind data.

And so his job is to help people not to do that.

And so I think one thing is to solve this issue is number one, just like common sense, looking at the right data, not waiting for more data, more data, more data we have lots of data these days and asking the right questions.

And the second is, i think, um having diverse teams.

So one thing that really just i.

Early in my career, i worked on wall street and you walk in a room and like not only does everybody look the same, they dress the same.

It's like blue button downs all over the room and these are people who usually went to the same schools each other, live down the street from each other and they are there's never any dissent And, as we know, like that leads to decisions that are so narrow.

And so like fill the room with people who are different than you have them challenge you.

You know what I mean?

And that is something that, like it sounds so obvious.

But like look at the boards of America's leading companies like, how much diversity of thinking and lived experiences they're there.

Not enough.

And so I think it's something that like, all of us need to just like recognize is just major room for improvement, because not only is it just the right thing to do, but also because we make better decisions when we have people around us who are different than us.

Absolutely yeah, and i i, when i um talk to some of the companies that i've consulted with in the past, i obviously most of the time is negotiation and conflict resolution.

But then when they hear oh, you had a background in civil rights, can you talk about implicit bias?

I'm like okay, i mean Yeah, I'll do it.

Okay.

But when I talk to them about the process, hey, just let's be self-aware here.

Yeah, we're talking about implicit bias and whatnot, but we also have to talk about decision-making and how we're making these decisions.

If you're in a room and everybody agrees all the time, that might be indicative of a bit of a problem here, because you're not seeing diverse perspectives.

And the decisions that we make become better when we have multiple data points that come from different angles.

And what I really like about this is that we're saying yes, there's going to be an information asymmetry when we make these decisions.

But a lot of times we put ourselves in a position where not only is there an information asymmetry, but there's a significant bias that comes from confirmation bias and different biases.

That inhibits the quality of information that we're getting in the first place, because we're getting those minuscule data points all from the same person or the same kind of person, which makes it even harder to make good decisions.

Yeah, there's this really interesting quote or story that I heard recently about Alfred Sloan, who was the founder of GM.

And he was making some decision and he consulted his team.

And he said, well, are we all in agreement here?

And they said, yep, we all agree.

And he said well then, let's postpone the decision because I want to hear a disagreement before I decide, which I thought was pretty cool.

That's awesome.

I love that story.

Yeah, that is great.

Well, hey, this has been fantastic.

I really appreciate you coming on the show.

But before you go again, I want you to let people know about the book, let people know about the podcast.

And if they want to reach out to you, the best way to do it.

Yeah, I was going to grab the book.

It's it's I don't know where it is.

The book is somewhere.

If you're watching this, you'll see I have a lot of books behind me.

So The book is called Era of Missing Out Practical Decision Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice.

You can get it at any bookseller, including Amazon, of course, and it's also available in Kindle.

And the podcast is called FOMO Sapiens, and you can find that anywhere you get your podcasts.

And my website is PatrickMcGinnis.com.

There you'll find tons of resources on this and also on entrepreneurship.

My first book was called The 10% Entrepreneur, and you'll find all my social links.

So definitely check it out and listen to the podcast.

Patrick, thank you so much for coming on the show, my friend.

I appreciate it.

Thanks so much.

This is a blast.

[협상 마스터클래스: 의사결정 도구로서의 협상과 FOMO/FOBO 극복 전략]-[The Truth About Tough Decisions — What No One Teaches You]

📋 Summary

협상 마스터클래스: 의사결정의 기술과 전략적 접근

1. Stephanie Hanna: 의사결정의 프로세스와 시간 및 공간의 활용

2. Liam Leonard: 리더십과 어려운 결정의 실행

3. Patrick McGinnis: 선택 과잉의 시대, FOMO와 FOBO 극복

결론

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[협상 마스터클래스: 의사결정 도구로서의 협상과 FOMO/FOBO 극복 전략]-[The Truth About Tough Decisions — What No One Teaches You]

📋 Summary

협상 마스터클래스: 의사결정의 기술과 전략적 접근

1. Stephanie Hanna: 의사결정의 프로세스와 시간 및 공간의 활용

2. Liam Leonard: 리더십과 어려운 결정의 실행

3. Patrick McGinnis: 선택 과잉의 시대, FOMO와 FOBO 극복

결론

ListenLeap으로 딥러닝 학습

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

ListenLeap이 실제 문맥에서 학습하도록 이끌어줌