the next time you fly upgrade your comfort to emirates premium economy sink into soft leather seats with raised leg rests and adjustable headrests elevate your dinner plans with delicious regional dining all served with complimentary premium drinks enjoy endless entertainment with up to 6500 channels
including live sports there's no other premium economy like it fly emirates fly better From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.
This is The Daily. This week, the president falsely claimed that Ukraine started the war against Russia, ordered independent federal agencies created by Congress to answer directly to him, and installed himself as the leader of Washington's premier cultural institution.
To make sense of all of that, I spoke with three of my colleagues, White House reporter Zolan Kano -Youngs, national security reporter Charlie Savage, and writer -at -large Elizabeth Buhmiller.
It's Friday, February 21st.
Friends, welcome to The Roundtable, where we acknowledge week after week that covering this presidency requires multiple minds in the same room at the same time.
I want to thank you all for being here, Charlie.
Thank you. Zolan. Thank you.
Good to see you. And Elizabeth, making your debut here in this format.
Thank you. And Elizabeth, your resume requires just a little bit of an explanation.
You were, until very recently, Charlie N.
Zolan's boss. You were the Washington bureau chief overseeing all of our coverage of really the entire federal government during the first Trump administration and the entire Biden presidency, after which I think you justifiably collapsed into a heap and I assume you've got a well -earned rest.
I would disagree with collapsing into a heap, but yes.
Really appreciate all of you being here.
Today's loose theme is a rewriting of history in three parts.
And the first place where in many minds history is being rewritten over the past few days is the war in Ukraine.
And the backdrop is that Donald Trump began unilateral talks with Russia about ending the war in Ukraine without Ukraine's input, which we talked about in our roundtable last Friday.
Zolan, if you would pick up the plot for us there.
Sure. So I think it's smart that you started this with the fact that Trump had this significant call with Vladimir Putin.
That conversation basically prompted concern amongst Europeans as well as Americans that Ukraine was not going to have a seat at the negotiating table, that the country that was invaded in this case was not going to have a say in any potential peace talks that could end the war.
There are talks then in Saudi Arabia between U .S.
officials and a Russian delegation, and Zelensky does not attend because he was not invited to those talks, even though it was his country that was invaded.
So after he doesn't attend, you have President Trump come out and criticize Zelensky.
Right. And let me play that, Zolan, for all of us, because this is a moment I think worth lingering on, this specific remark from Trump.
And I think I have the power to end this war.
And I think it's going very well.
But today I heard, oh, well, we weren't invited.
Well, you've been there for three years.
You should have ended it three years.
You should have never started it.
You could have made a deal.
I could have made a deal.
And the context is, as you just said, Zolan, the president is growing impatient with Zelensky's complaints that he's not involved in the conversations with Russia.
He's saying, Zelensky, you've been in this war for three years.
You had a chance to end it.
In fact, you started it.
And I just want to linger on the idea of that particular remark, Elizabeth, because to many people's minds, that is not just false, but potentially a very deliberate rewriting of history.
A complete rewriting of history.
Putin invaded Ukraine three years ago.
That is a fact. It was not Zelensky's fault.
Zelensky did not cause his country to be invaded.
This is a classic Trump MO.
It's just that the whole world knows it's wrong.
But it seemed to be part of a deliberate strategy.
And what is the deliberateness of the strategy?
I mean, what would be the rationale for saying this?
If we assume that there is something deliberate about it, it didn't quite seem accidental.
Well, if you want to make a deal with Putin, you need to cast Zelensky as the villain here.
Well, I think part of it also is that the deal that it looks like he's going to make is going to be a very favorable to Russia deal.
They're going to be allowed to keep the territory that they unlawfully seized from Ukraine.
And Trump has already said that Ukraine won't be allowed to join NATO, which is another Putin demand.
And so handing this entirely favorable settlement, if that's what happens, to Moscow looks pretty bad if Moscow was the aggressor and the villain in this story.
Of course, in the sort of Moscow propaganda land, it was the West's fault.
It was provocation by Ukraine and NATO that necessitated this non -war military action.
And Trump is just embracing that narrative with this remark, which many Republicans and conservatives find grotesque.
I just want to make sure people understand what you're saying when you refer to the idea of Ukraine as a provocateur here.
you mentioned NATO.
I think we should just translate this for folks.
The argument, and Putin makes it, and some foreign policy figures have made it less strongly than Putin, is that NATO's expansion, the growth of this defensive alliance that was created and designed to contain Russia's territorial ambitions over time, especially as it contemplates allowing Ukraine in becomes
a provocation to Russia.
Is that in some ways what Trump is parroting here?
I mean, Elizabeth, you posited it may be that he needs to villainize Zelensky in order to allow for a peace deal that cuts Zelensky out.
But is he adopting this larger foreign policy framework as well?
Sure. He didn't say that explicitly, though.
But that is certainly a view of many people in the foreign policy establishment.
History is split on this so far about whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, but there are people.
For NATO to contemplate letting Ukraine in.
Yes. But the other thing I wanted to say was, this is very helpful to Trump to promote this rewriting of history because it's worked for him in the past.
Look at how many people think that he won the election in 2020.
Look at how many people now think that January 6th was a day of peaceful protest.
Yeah. So it works. I think you also have to look at it in tandem with the outright skepticism that has come from Trump and his team about U .S.
aid to Ukraine as well.
And as you continue to put out these false statements that cast blame on Ukraine, turn it from victim to villain, does that now lay the groundwork to pull back U .S.
aid on a long -term basis to Ukraine as well?
Right. Well, what do we think the answer is?
I mean, that isn't what's actually happened yet.
Do we think that's the plan?
There's been multiple indicators that we could be getting to that point.
You saw in recent days the president say that for previous aid to Ukraine that's already gone through, that he wanted an exchange, critical earth minerals from Ukraine.
So you're already seeing now a shift from a Biden administration whose position was we're going to send aid and arms to Ukraine to give them the best leverage in potential negotiations to a Trump administration that's saying, essentially, what are we getting back for this U .S.
aid? So the skepticism has been building here.
And now you have these false statements that are casting blame on Ukraine in an attempt to potentially shape public perception over the war as well, potentially laying the groundwork for a major change in not just USA to Ukraine, but also U .S.
foreign policy and how the United States deals with allies overseas.
how the U .S. deals with Europe specifically, that is the great difference here.
It's moving closer to Russia and moving away from Europe.
And I think we all know that there was complete panic at the Munich Security Conference last week about that.
That was, it's, if you talk to any European official, they are beside themselves with what is happening and preparing for a future without the United States.
And Ukraine is the beginning of that.
That's right. And hovering over all this is the prospect of eventual NATO withdrawal, which Trump wanted to do in his first term and was talked out of several times.
Do you think that's a logical next step, Charlie?
The United States leaving this military alliance it created to protect Europe from Russia.
All the signs have been that he's interested in a retreat from Europe and withdrawal of the American security umbrella over Europe.
Whether that manifests itself in actual withdrawal from NATO or just sort of a undermining of NATO and withdrawal of security commitments in a way that the organization ceases to have meaning is, I think, up for grabs.
But that's the direction.
I do want to talk about where even within this framework of Trump doing some serious rewriting of history, there is an element where he would not seem to be rewriting history, where he would seem to be exactly where many Americans are.
And that is in saying that it's time for this conflict to end.
Polling consistently shows that's where more and more Americans are.
and also that this would seem to be a European problem more than it would be an American problem.
One of the comments Trump made over the past few days that got less attention than the comments he made about Ukraine starting the war or when he called Zelensky a dictator, which we haven't even talked about, is that he said there's an ocean between us and all of this conflict.
And I took that naturally to mean, Europe, it's your turn to deal with all of this.
Absolutely. And look, the Biden – Is he kind of right?
Yes, he is sort of right because the Biden administration was obviously moving in this direction.
But there was always the view that Ukraine would be part of any kind of settlement.
And this is just completely casting Ukraine out.
And there also is a sense among the Europeans that we are totally on our own.
Michael, you also mentioned the public polling too and some of the skepticism from the country.
That is something that gets brought up when you press Trump administration officials and some foreign policy experts too about this.
That there was some frustration building including in Ukraine of what's the strategy for a diplomatic off ramp here?
What's the end game?
Is this just going to continue?
And this is something I hear a lot when you press the Trump administration that the status quo essentially wasn't working for the American people anymore.
So at least this is an effort to force talks.
The only issue is are you now forcing talks and pretty much giving up the leverage that you might have had?
How much are you actually going to force Ukraine to cede?
Right. Charles, you had mentioned that some Republicans in Congress find Trump's approach to Ukraine.
I believe your word was grotesque.
But so far, they're not doing much about that.
The Senate Majority Leader John Thune was asked about the comments that Trump has been making specifically that Ukraine's Alensky started this war, and his answer was basically, I don't want to talk about that.
I just want this conflict to come to an end.
How much does that kind of a response have to do with, Zolan and Elizabeth, what you're saying?
The public sentiment has moved on.
And what's the point of even bringing up what has been longstanding Republican hawkishness against Russia?
Well, this isn't just about public opinion.
This is about the transformation of the Republican party into an instrument of Trump's personal will, the driving out of people who were willing to stand up to him in his first term.
There's no more Liz Cheney's.
There's no more John McCain's.
people like Marco Rubio were among the Russia hawks who are now just negotiating with Russia.
Well, in a way that's very favorable to Russia.
And so the people who are openly saying this is grotesque are people who don't have political careers anymore.
They're like former Vice President Mike Pence.
And so I don't see the, I don't want to talk about it from Tune that you just mentioned as something unique to this issue.
I see it as just the texture of the times we live in generally.
OK, well, we're going to take a break and when we come back, talk about how Trump is starting to rewrite something else, which is the president's relationship to power.
We'll be right back.
This podcast is supported by Signify Business Cash by Wells Fargo.
As a business owner, you wear a lot of hats.
One minute you're ordering today's inventory, and the next you're planning tomorrow's expansion.
It's complicated, but your business credit card should be simple.
With the Signify Business Cash card by Wells Fargo, you earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases for your business with no caps or categories to track.
Signify Business Cash, the deliberately simple business credit card.
Learn more at wellsfargo .com slash signify.
Terms apply. Scaling a global team shouldn't be hard.
Luckily, Deal makes it easy with payroll, HR, IT, and compliance on one platform.
There are zero barriers, no third -party payroll, fewer compliance headaches, and massively reduced admin overload.
See why over 35 ,000 customers trust Deal to hire, pay, and manage teams in 100 -plus countries.
To learn more, visit deal .com slash NYT.
That's D -E -E -L dot com slash N -Y -T Deal, your forever people platform Okay, welcome back I want to turn Charlie, Elizabeth, and Zolin To the second place where the White House seems to be rewriting or revising history And that's through an executive order he signed this past week Dealing with independent agencies
Now, Professor Savage, Charlie, this is literally your wheelhouse Can you just start by explaining what an independent agency is and what the president's order has done to them?
So the United States government is structured by acts of Congress that say we're going to have a defense department, we're going to have a justice department and so forth.
And most of those chunks of government are overseen by people who are directly accountable to the president.
And supervised by the president and can be fired by the president if they act in a way that don't align with his policy directions.
But going back to the 1880s and then especially over the course of the 20th century coming out of the New Deal, Congress has also created a series of independent executive branch agencies that are technocratic and have specialized jobs to regulate parts of the economy and that are not directly controlled
by the president. The president appoints their leaders, usually commissions of multiple board members, but they serve fixed terms and the president can't fire them if he doesn't like what they're doing unless they've committed some kind of personal misconduct under the laws set up by Congress.
So this is – we're talking about the Federal Communications Commission, Federal Trade Commission, Security and Exchange Commission, National Labor Relations Board, agencies like this.
They regulate the economy.
They impose rules and regulations on aspects of businesses that very wealthy people sometimes do not like.
This is helpful. So what does this executive order do to what you just described?
So for a long time, the conservative legal movement has wanted to get rid of that structure of government because they believe that centralizing control over these agencies in the White House with a president they could help elect would be a way to deregulate, to get rid of these rules that cut into
their profits. And so they have invented a theory that the Constitution should be reinterpreted as not allowing Congress to do this.
That if there's anything in the executive branch that's exercising government authority, the president has to control that.
And so these statutes that Congress has passed, setting up these independent agencies, should be struck down as unconstitutional.
And Trump has been trying to execute this vision that's been kind of building really since the Reagan administration of a new way of thinking about the Constitution that they are hoping the Republican appointees on the Supreme Court will endorse when the inevitable litigation reaches them.
And so Trump has been, A, firing people in disregard of the statutes that say he can't summarily do that unless they've committed some kind of personal misconduct.
And B, with this new executive order, he's imposing direct White House control over what these agencies do.
Elizabeth, how big a deal is this rewriting of our understanding of these agencies' relationship to the presidency?
One way in which it would seem to matter is, as Charlie's hinting at, these were congressionally created agencies, congressionally insulated from the president.
And so by taking that away, the president would seem to be pretty clearly encroaching on Congress's authority.
Correct. And this will have to be sorted out, obviously, as Charlie said, by the Supreme Court because it's going to reach the Supreme Court.
The question I have about it is, if the Supreme Court rules in Trump's favor, that means the next president who might be a Democrat also has these incredible king -like powers.
So Republicans, be careful what you wish for.
This is the kind of loaded gun theory, as one of the producers on our team put it, that you want to be careful with the authority you grant yourself because you're not going to be president forever.
Correct. I mean, I think there's also a question of just what does the federal government look like when you have a clear disregard of the checks and balances that are set up within the federal bureaucracy at this point.
He has shown that he's willing to go and effectively shrink an agency, he's also indicated that he wants Elon Musk's team to next go into the Department of Education, to also go into the Pentagon.
You have a president and administration here that has been pretty honest about wanting to completely reshape the federal bureaucracy in a way where it's set up in his image, where you have loyalists throughout.
And when you're disregarding the checks and balances that have been set up in order to do that, I mean, that indicates that there's not going to be much hesitancy on the part of this administration to pursue these goals in upending the federal bureaucracy.
Right. One of the things that really struck me about the national conversation that's unfolding around this was an editorial in the Wall Street Journal, whose editorial board is very conservative and business friendly, and therefore traditionally you would expect to be a friendly place towards this notion of gutting,
you know, regulatory agencies or bringing them to heel and unitary executive theory and all that.
But even they They were saying, you know, this is demonstrating a downside to that way of structuring government, which is the potential for corruption by centralizing too much authority in a way that becomes unaccountable.
And, of course, overlaying this is just the role of Congress in general.
It's, you know, it's one thing whether this is a better way or a worse way to do it, but completely cutting out the Article I branch of government into making decisions about how to structure things suggests there's no role left for lawmakers in shaping the basic structure of our federal government.
And they don't seem to be objecting, which is what is so extraordinary.
You know, if he wants, he says he wants to get rid of the entire education department that was created by Congress.
You just don't hear anything out of, much out of the Hill.
I mean, there's the Democrats are making, they're protesting, but nothing else.
There's so few guardrails at this point for this administration.
When you're essentially, you know, ignoring Congress's role, when you're installing loyalists at the Department of Justice, when you're ousting inspectors general as well, I think there is a real question of at that point, what is the system of accountability that's in place for the executive branch?
Finally, our third, our final topic where history has been rewritten over the past few days.
And that is rewriting the place of the Kennedy Center of all places, which is designed to be the cultural center for the entire nation.
It's home to the National Symphony Orchestra, the Washington National Opera.
it has now been cast by the president as a woke purveyor of drag shows that target children.
And the president has taken it over, which I don't think most of us even knew he had the power to do.
Elizabeth, in your new role as a grand writer at large, of all things happening in the Capitol, you have tried to understand this saga.
How did this even end up on the president's radar within the first few weeks of his presidency?
Well, in 2017, Norman Lear, the late Norman Lear, but he was very much alive then, said he would not attend this annual gala at the Kennedy Center that awards lifetime achievement awards to people who have contributed to the culture of the nation.
And Norman Lear said he would not attend the White House reception ahead of time because Donald Trump had threatened to cut off all funding for the National Endowment for the Arts.
We should say there's an irony to this, of course, because Norman Lear was involved in creating a show I think of as quite kind of adjacent to the Trump era, which is all in the family, a very populous show about a family in Queens.
Yes. And so then less than two weeks later, Charlottesville happened.
Trump said they were fine people on both sides of that.
Another honoree said she was not going to attend the White House reception.
Became a protest against the president.
Yes. And so Trump just said, I'm not having the reception and he would not attend the Kennedy Center Honors that December.
He was the first president in 40 years not to attend.
And he never went the entire four years of the first term.
And so who knew the resentments he held close to him?
Well, now we know because he quickly, within weeks of his new administration, installed himself as the new chairman of the Kennedy Center.
He fired the president and removed all of the Biden appointees on the board and installed his own in a matter of days.
To what end though?
Well, he said it was because of all the drag shows at the Kennedy Center targeted at children.
Is there any truth to that claim?
We think he was referring to one that was a drag show for gay youth.
But the point is there are more than 2 ,000 events at the Kennedy Center every year.
have been a handful of drag shows and only one that we could find that was aimed at children.
And also I would just like to point out that the Kennedy Center is, for the most part, it's changed a lot in recent years, but it's traditional.
It's opera, it's ballet, it's the symphony.
There have been country music festivals there.
There's been jazz, there's been rock.
It's not what you would call a risky avant -garde art house, to say the least.
I mean, Zolin, do you have any sense of what the president, now that he has essentially taken over the Kennedy Center, wants it to be under his supervision?
And do we think he's actually going to play a supervisory role in the programming of this place?
That's a good question.
I know in your story, you indicated that we might have some more country music, you know, at the Kennedy Center here on it.
Knowing Trump, probably what he envisions to be patriotic or more America first, I think there's something broader here, which is what?
I think this has to do with Trump's clear intent to put sort of his MAGA stamp on all areas of society, not just the executive branch.
I think you have to look at this also in tandem with, you know, DEI executive orders that have tried to dictate how private companies shape their hiring practices, directing different federal agencies and federal employees to remove their preferred pronouns from signatures, you know, removing gender
-neutral bathrooms, trying to also dictate how schools will handle LGBTQ issues as well.
I think this is part of trying to please a base that sees diversity and diversity in art as being a partisan issue, as being quote -unquote woke in a way.
There's certainly a real drive among conservatives to try to become a more dominant culture in the United States.
They have lived for years in the shadow of the liberal Hollywood elite.
You know, it was very hard for Trump to get people to perform at his first inaugural.
It's still hard to get, you know, A -list celebrities to come and perform to his White House.
And they're resentful.
They feel shut out.
But now they said, you know, we're going to be cool now.
So there's a lot of that going on, I think, with this.
So just to end this conversation, how should we think about these three, if we agree on these terms, kind of rewritings of history taken together?
My own sense, I'll offer my own theory, is that when it comes to Donald Trump, there is this longstanding proven instinct to frame everything as much as possible as being in crisis, right?
If you're a foe of Trump, it's the worst version of that person.
An institution is never just flawed, it's a failure.
Something isn't just problematic, it's a crisis.
There's not just waste in the government, it's corruption.
And it would seem that that framework, which in many cases leads to a rewriting of a history, then justifies the depth and sweep of the changes that he wants to make.
That's at least how I have been thinking about this concept of rewriting history.
I'm curious what you all think.
Well, what previous leaders have done is just to declare a crisis, you know, that everything is terrible, but I am here to save you all.
And that would include the three things we've talked about.
I mean, Trump, he had trouble in the first term because he had too many people from the old order, the establishment.
But they're gone now.
And you can see it's basically Trump and Elon Musk.
So I do think it's part of his playbook to be the kind of leader he would like to be, to be basically the king he would like to be.
I think that's right.
And, you know, an effort to shape perception, too.
When you're flooding the zone with false statements in the case of Ukraine, it also allows you to then shape the perception for your base for actions to come as well.
Charlie, last word to you.
I do think you're on to something, and it makes me think as well about how he likes to invoke emergency power and declare there's an emergency whether or not the facts on the ground might be realistically described that way.
We have an emergency on the border, so I can spend all this money on a border wall that Congress didn't appropriate.
Sort of like rhetorically creating the situation that then allows extraordinary action.
Yeah, that's right.
Would be a theme that unites all of this.
Well, to all three of you, my thanks, Elizabeth and Charlie Zolin.
Really good to have you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks so much. we'll be right back popular heart medications all under $30 goodrx compares prescription prices at over 70 ,000 pharmacies and finds discounts of up to 80%.
Even if you have insurance or Medicare, GoodRx may beat your co -pay.
For savings on heart medications plus everyday medications, go to goodrx .com slash the daily.
Time is luxury. That's why Polestar 3 is thoughtfully designed to make every minute you spend driving it the best time of your day.
That means noise canceling capabilities and 3D surround sound on Bowers and Wilkins speakers.
Seamlessly integrated technology to keep you connected and the horsepower and control to make this electric SUV feel like a sports car.
Polestar 3 is a new generation of electric performance.
Book a test drive at polestar .com.
Here's what else you need to know today.
The yays are 51. The nays are 49.
The confirmation is confirmed.
And the president will be immediately notified of the Senate's actions.
On Thursday, the U .S.
Senate confirmed Kash Patel, President Trump's controversial choice to lead the FBI, despite his long history of attacking the bureau and calling for the investigation of Trump's political enemies.
Democrats had hoped to block Patel, who they fear will carry out a campaign of retribution within the FBI.
But only two Senate Republicans join them in voting against Patel.
Ann. After careful consideration, I have determined that I will not commence removal proceedings at this time.
My strong belief is that the will of the voters and the supremacy and sanctity of democratic elections preclude me from any other action.
New York Governor Kathy Hochul said she will not exercise her authority to remove New York City's mayor, Eric Adams, from office.
Many Democrats have asked her to take that step because of allegations that Adams entered a corrupt agreement with the Trump White House to drop federal bribery charges against him.
Instead, Hochul will impose strict new guardrails on Adams to ensure that he's accountable to New York City voters, not just to President Trump.
Those guardrails include creating an inspector general to police the mayor's office and establishing a legal fund that would allow city officials to sue the Trump administration, even if Mayor Adams is unwilling to do so.
New York is facing a grave threat from Washington.
it. The Trump administration is already trying to use the legal jeopardy facing our mayor as leverage to squeeze and punish our city.
I call it the Trump revenge tour, and I have to stand in its way.
Remember, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow.
David Marchese speaks with Pulitzer Prize winning science writer Ed Yong about his years covering COVID and why, in his mind, we're thinking about bird flu in all the wrong ways.
The way that it's often framed is, tell me on a scale of 1 to 10 how worried you are that, like, H5N1 is going to go pandemic.
I think the more important question is, if it does, how screwed are we?
And the answer is really, like, very, very.
Today's episode was produced by Asta Chatharveidi and Mary Wilson.
It was edited by Rachel Quester and Chris Haxel.
Contains original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Pat McCusker.
And was engineered by Chris Wood.
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.
That's it for The Daily.
I'm Michael Barbaro.
See you on Monday. this podcast is supported by Carnegie Mellon university where innovation meets impact home to world -class faculty cutting -edge research and diverse global thinkers Carnegie Mellon university shapes the future from robotics to the arts our students redefine possibilities join a community that turns ideas into action and passion into purpose
Carnegie Mellon, where what if becomes what's next.
Learn more at cmu .edu.
