You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by Steve and Yushan in the studio.
Coming up, Peking University just scrapped GPA rankings for undergraduates.
A bold move in a country where GPA often decides scholarships, grad school, and even affect future careers.
Could it help shift students focus from chasing numbers? to chasing knowledge?
Or will competition just find a new form?
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This summer, Peking University made headlines with a bold move in China's higher education.
Starting this fall, undergraduates at the country's most prestigious university will no longer be ranked by GPA, that's the grade point average. that has long defined students standing among their peers.
Yushan, do explain, what exactly is the change?
Starting from this July, Peking University dropped the news for their undergraduates which specifies like this.
So starting with the new semester of 2025, The university will scrap GPA, the grade point average system, across all departments. well this first started as a pilot say trial in one of their schools, the School of Life and Sciences since three years ago.
But now they are trying to spread this, just use it upon the whole campus. including all schools, let's say.
But also apart from just the GPA change, there are other changes happening in Peking University as well.
There is this pass and no pass choice, or rather pass or no pass choice, which means that by the ninth week of this semester The students can pick one course, either a public basic course or something outside of their usual measure, and they can pass it or don't pass it, and it won't affect their GPA.
That's the grade, pass or... Fail. Yeah, I think so too.
For example, if one student from another major would like to try... with an AI course, let's say, and just there to explore it.
So whether he or she passed or not does not impact how His or her GPA will be after this master's. kind of like one previous topic we discussed, which is the academic failure tolerance.
It's A mechanism to encourage students undergraduate students to try out different classes, whether it's within your um say major or not so what and whether you succeed or not in that new say area it doesn't really matter as long as you try so this sorry if i'm putting you on the spot here you might not know the answer to this but If you take one of the pass, no pass classes,
It doesn't count towards your academic evaluation, but it does count as a credit. at the university, it must, right?
Otherwise, it would just be like a hobby.
The way that I see it is they stamp it, not based on how much you score.
Yeah, it's rather you pass or not pass as a result.
I like this because it encourages students to, It takes the pressure off, doesn't it, right?
If you're thinking introduction to AI, ooh, that might be kind of hard. hard.
I don't see myself scoring very well in that class.
I'm going to skip it because I don't want my overall. academic evaluation to be affected by a poor score in that class.
Whereas pass don't pass. You get a stamp.
Um, yeah. cool, I'll go check this out.
And who knows, maybe I'm going to fall in love with this.
Maybe this will be something that I'll focus on in my studies in the future. in the future, maybe work in the industry in the future.
It's a nice introduction, isn't it? I see it is that it opens more possibilities for cross-major kind of new courses because back then I remember over a decade ago back in my uni days we can only select even for just smaller credits courses within our own academic I think.
Oh, really? It's not like I major in English and I can select courses from the Tourism Management major.
Yeah, those are called, what are they called?
They're called free credits or something like that.
I forget the term exactly, but... You have the freedom to choose.
When I was in university in Canada, we had those types of courses too.
I remember... One of the classes I took was Love and Death.
That was the name of the class. Really? Yeah, and it explored.
It was so interesting. It explored... the concept of relationships and marriage in different cultures around the world, and then death, was about how different cultures deal with death and how religions are incorporated.
Really, really interesting. Maybe one student came up with love death robots afterwards.
Maybe that's where it came from. Yeah, well many are calling it a bold move in China's higher education.
Why is it kind of a big deal? And why do you think Peking University is doing this?
Yeah, one big reason is that it's an effort to break free from the GPA competition within the school because we know GPA the credit system has been the dominant say, evaluation tool ever since decades ago when it was first introduced to China I think from North American educational system. and it's been used to decide and evaluate students for many important things like scholarships, honorary titles and also postgraduate recommendations.
So the schools that you're applying for next step up, they check your GPA score and determine whether or not your application will get a get an offer so it's really important for students previously and many schools will see GPA driving up to 80% of decisions for scholarship or for honors like outstanding student.
And also among China's top universities, over 60% of undergrads They go on to grad schools like Peking University and Tsinghua. even hit around 80%.
So no wonder GPA is chasing kind of becoming the norm among students, for them to fight for even the 0.1 on their GPA at school.
Chasing that 4.0 GPA, right? Yeah. In Canada, we have kind of a hybrid system you'll get an A, a B, a C, a D, or an F in your class, but then that letter is converted into a number. yep right and then the numbers the numbers get converted into your GPA.
So it's kind of a hybrid. system that can be a little bit confusing, I guess, but I think America uses a similar system.
Other countries, though, they don't use that system at all, right?
They don't even use letter systems. Well, in the UK, they use the, you know, first class honors, second class honors. upper second, lower second, honors that system.
But if you're applying, let's say for another degree, you know, maybe in the US or whatnot, then you need to convert to the GPA system again.
But if not, then you graduate with your honors and you're really happy, hopefully.
So if we take a critical look, how much does this change really matter?
And how much difference will it make in students' lives?
And now maybe we're only looking at the top universities in China, such as Peking University. let's say with the GPA system students they many of them they tend to look into those courses that's known for lenient grading rather than just what the subjects are about.
For example, back in the days, if there's one course that's known to the younger undergraduates of course based on the experiences from the senior students that this course is easier to pass, then yeah, this one tends to attract more students than other courses the whole variety of different courses out there so Nowadays, with the GPA system kind of being less prioritized, I would say, helps to ease that kind of course selecting pressure and encourages students to try to just go for everything they want or that they're curious about.
So that's one way of just encouraging students and inspiring them in so many ways.
Takes the pressure off. Yeah. Does it? I don't know.
As soon as those words came out of my mouth, I wondered, does it really make a difference? after all. because you're still grade-chasing, right?
I don't know if it relieves the competition...
You know, they predict it will relieve the competition a little bit.
What do you think? I've never been to a Chinese university, so I wouldn't know.
I haven't either, but I have friends who have been and.
I've read profusely on the subject. I guess the competition doesn't disappear because GPA is gone, but there's definitely at least a level of symbolic. significance.
I mean, Peking University is China's top university, along with Tsinghua University, let's not enrage our very high achievers.
Tapping on their keyboards as soon as you said that.
Yeah. Yes, Tsinghua graduates, you're great too, and many others.
When it announces GPA no longer rules, I mean, that's what people...
King University is saying it signals a willingness to rethink entrenched academic norms, that alone I think challenges the long-standing belief that grades are the only yardstick for success, but this could have an uneven impact. on students, would this almost create like a halo effect?
For those who already have the advantage of graduating from a university with top predigree, labs, internships, great professors, family guanxi. connections, I mean strong social capital.
And they might just game more while others could still be disadvantaged or am I looking at this too critically?
I would say that when Steve first mentioned taking off the pressure, I said yeah, but it's just for while you're at school.
What about afterwards when it comes to the point where you have to submit your score to apply for something higher like for a postgraduate or like applying for a school that's outside of China, they still want to see your GPA, especially if you're applying for some school in North America and Sometimes the overseas universities, they may still require GPA conversion first of all,
So to address that, the Peking University, for example, Once they practice this in the long run, then they'll have to come up with say an official conversion tool to convert the grade back into GPA so that these students can apply.
Again, a halo effect. Yeah, what's the difference?
Yeah, a halo effect for while you're studying and experiencing all different things.
But when it comes to finishing your study and furthering your, say, academic career or like a higher education, then yeah, where does this lie?
Yeah. And do companies care about this? I don't think so.
It depends. Pens, maybe. Maybe not... I've seen when we're hiring people, I've seen some people put their GPAs on GPAs. the survey yeah on their cv yeah if it's good they If it's good.
I think that's the key. Usually... Well, this is not the top metric that companies are looking at.
Perhaps if it's like very, very competitive job posting that you know, we're talking about here, then maybe your GPA might be asked.
But actually, This is really strange. I've actually heard friends who are applying for jobs in international companies outside of China. they've been asked to provide their transcripts from accredited, trustworthy, third party platform.
So if you have to provide your transcripts from your higher education days, then They can see every single grade.
You said outside of China, though? That might be for visa purposes.
I'm not sure. I've had to do that in the past.
Oh, okay. Well, I don't have the details for that.
So good for you to raise that point. And also, if we look at what's going on here In China, Peking University is not the first university in China that downplays GPA.
Other leading universities have also done similar things in the past.
Could you tell us more information about that and how do we perceive these efforts? of universities in China exploring educational evaluation systems.
We mentioned Tsinghua University earlier, which is another one of the top universities in China. they have this 12 level evaluation which is where their course grades are divided from A plus, A, A minus, down to F. with GPA assigned according to ranking within the same grade.
And also for their freshmen, They also have two of their colleges, the Du Shi College and Xiu Zhong Colleges.
They announced in 2024 that during the first semester, all course grades do not count towards GPA. basically at the very starting point, you have the freedom of failing some courses and just experiencing more.
I guess. Fudan is another example. Back in 2024, the fall semester...
Students got to choose one course per semester up to 16 credits in total. to be recorded as that pass-no-pass system that you talked about before, Yushan.
And then passing the course earns credit.
So we know at Foodon it does earn credit there. but it does not affect your GPA.
Again, a great thing for the students. And then in Eastern China's Zhejiang University, there is this courses where they're graded either by percentage or letter grade.
Leather Grace, they follow either a five-level system that's directly translated as excellent, good, average, pass and fail, so A to F. or a two-level system that's either pass or fail, P or F.
I wonder if those A, A, B, Cs, A+, A, A-, B+.
I wonder if that's graded on a curve. If it's graded on a curve, that can be such a headache for the professors.
When I was teaching at a university in Michigan, Korea.
Day one, I told the students, you're being graded on a curve.
Okay, what that means is a certain percentage of you can get an A.
That means only a certain percentage of you can get an A. You are competing against yourself. each other.
Your scores are relative to the other students in the class.
Understand? So what that means is at the end of the semester, I don't want emails or knocks on my door saying, I think I deserve an A. because I'm going to tell you the criteria to get an A in this course.
Understand? What happened at the end of the semester?
Why did I get a B plus? Do you remember?
Yeah, it can be tough on the professors.
Yeah, I can see that. The way that Steve tells stories, I feel like I'm a fly on the wall. in that room and chuckling.
I knew it was coming too. I was like, why am I even telling them this?
Because I know what's going to happen at the end of the semester.
Yeah, well... You know, for these universities in China, Now it seems like only the really prestigious ones are trying this out, do you think? you know, this kind of bold move can have further repercussions sort of reverberating throughout these universities in China, which are many.
Even for Peking University, there sit that curve line for a graded students are only accounting for like 40%.
I think they set that curve as 40%. Peking University, they came up with this whole idea of adapting it to all to the entire campus, it's not really a one size fit all solution for them and it didn't come just overnight they kinda went on a trial to find the best solution for one school and then decide, okay, let's do this for the whole school.
I will say that and also some experts they also agree on this that each university they should really try to figure out their own way of say, educational reforms and see what works for their perspective the best.
Yeah, but they do outline three things that universities in China should consider If they're considering reforming their evaluation system, one. have very clear standards and transition mechanisms.
If you're ditching the GPA system, you have to have transparent ways for graduate programs and employers to understand this student performance and evaluation.
Otherwise, students are going to look at a new level of anxiety. when they're looking for a job.
Number two, systematic reform beyond grading.
So what that means is it's not just about the GPA.
You're looking at a cultural shift within the school.
You need teacher training too, so they know what to do. uh... look for you need department level responsibility to support those measures of growth.
And we talk about this a lot, you need collaboration too. universities, they have to work with industry and society and research institutes. because they need to recognize multiple forms of student achievement instead of just looking at that GPA number.
Yeah, so beyond that number or just putting that number aside, do you think this kind of change can actually facilitate more meaningful learning and development of students? well specifically with the pass fail class idea I really love that because It just opens the door for students to try something new without the pressure. of trying something new and worrying about the result.
Yeah, when you're chasing your GPA score, every decision class-wise you make is We had a class in Canadian universities.
I'll keep this brief. It was called Rocks for Jocks, okay?
The course was, yeah. It was a geology class, and it had the reputation of being so insanely easy. it was a guaranteed a plus and you students would take this and with the only intention of boosting their GPA, not because they were interested in geology.
Yeah. Well, the real measure, if we're really taking a step back and looking at this will be whether students find the freedom to explore, to fail, and to grow in ways that numbers never calculate.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
Thank you, Steve and Yushan, for joining the discussion.
I'm Hayoung, we'll see you next time.
