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Todd, welcome to the show, my friend.
It's so great to see you.
Thanks for having me, man.
Hey man, it is my pleasure.
So, how are you getting started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, the short story is I'm probably the luckiest person you're going to talk to in a while.
I really feel that way.
I had a lot of gratitude for the career so far.
I've had a few different careers, started with Anderson and Ernst and Young, and figured out that business and relationships especially were fascinating, but did not fit me as well as I maybe thought they would.
But I wouldn't let go of those objects I wanted to study.
And I realized my inner dork really wanted to come out.
And so I said, I'm gonna take a risk and get out of here and be a professional outsider in the business world.
And when I got a PhD and became a professor, PhD at Texas A &M and organizational behavior.
I was a professor for ten years at a school in Ohio that I loved, a place called Wright State University teaching mostly MBA students things about leadership.
up. And on the side, this is where the current career began to slowly bubble up.
As you know, smart people like you can't even just do one career, we just always have to be dabbling over here, side hustling over there.
And people started calling, Hey, man, I was in your class.
We've got a meeting coming up.
Last year. This guy we had was boring.
Would you come out and tell some stories.
You were great in class.
That's how it started.
And I showed up for free for a year, like people do.
And then they started offering to pay me and then it built into a career and about the time I was thinking, true story, I'm not have had time to be a professor anymore because I'm running around trying to be this new speaker person and trying to figure out what it means to write a book.
Then I got a call from a company you've heard of called LinkedIn or at the time they were lynda .com and they really wanted to start making some courses in my area.
And now I thought, I think I finally have what it takes to feel okay after 10 years of walking away from being a professor.
And for the last decade, I've been making courses, writing books and giving speeches like nobody's business.
I love it man, and listeners, so Todd and I, we met in Cali at the LinkedIn Learning Headquarters and first of all LinkedIn is like the best company ever.
This is not just me saying this.
I don't know if you've experienced this too Todd but essentially everybody I've worked with at LinkedIn has been just absurdly cool, like really cool to work with.
They are. Absurdly wonderfully abnormal.
Exactly, exactly. And I love that.
And so we hit it off there, in Cali and I heard all of you to check out Todd's courses.
We're going to link to the courses and the books and everything.
And yeah, I'm excited to just, first of all vibe with you, because I loved our chats back in Cali, but also share with the audience, the insights that you've developed, because you have such a diverse background when it comes to your career and the way that you've grown and shared your content with the world.
So I just kind of want to sit back and maybe let's start off with the biggest learnings that you've gotten over the past few decades doing this, and then we can roll that into the newest book.
Well, you know, honestly, there's so many wonderful ways to answer that question, and it's a great question.
I would say that when people finally started talking, I think it was the 90s, I don't recall, maybe you can correct me, about continuous learning, you know, making that a thing that we're always going to do until the end if we're smart.
I was so happy to see the rise of that because I had already personally committed to it as I kept trying to do things because it's required for growth, period.
And so I was fascinated to see phrase come around and people start to really embrace it.
And of course, as you know, only in the last decade has tech really started to infuse that idea, including the platform that you and I are on.
And this is funny true story.
A guy asked me once, I was still a professor at the time, maybe it was the last year or two there.
So you mean you spent a lot of time at school, you've done a lot of things, talked to a lot of people, what did you if you got 10 seconds to share with me something awesome about what you, what have you learned that can help me?
It was almost that simple.
And I said, well, I learned how little I know so far and that is the truth.
And it's, it's not a joke, it's not a play.
It's just the truth.
And if you will think about that and realize that it's true for all of us in different ways, it is wonderfully humbling and then motivating to stay in the game.
Keep trying and keep growing.
Absolutely. I'm with you.
It's like, the more you know, The more you realize you don't know.
The inverse of the Dunning Kruger effect.
If, when I find people that are supremely confident in a lot of things, it means one of two things.
Either they're really good, or they really have no idea.
You know, as well as I do, that there's so many pros call themselves experts in different areas and we're related, but different with our areas.
And they still do believe, I think this died in the 80s and 90s, but there's still some folks doing it.
they cling to that overconfidence, over polished, I know it all just ask me persona.
And I'm fascinated by that as a guy who loves to study and talk about authenticity among other things.
I really am, because I think the more we make people relaxed by showing them that being human and imperfect is okay, the more the vibe in the room actually is conducive to everybody learning a little something.
Bingo, exactly. And I think everybody is afraid or a lot of people are afraid of being themselves and just they struggle with the reality that part of being themselves includes warts and all, the mistakes that we make.
We don't know everything.
And there's a simple reason why we don't know everything.
Just because it's literally impossible to know everything.
And there's nothing bad about admitting that.
And just being a human with another human.
Yeah, so I used to hang out with a bunch of scientists.
And thankfully, I'm recovering from that 15 years of life.
But they were mostly in agreement with us.
once in a while, I'm making this number up, a good 20 % of them really were full of themselves enough with their publications and such that they kind of thought they knew, if not at all, certainly a lot more than most humans, and I always felt bad for them, because I figured that would, overall, when the race was finally done, limit what they will have accomplished and what they will have realized, and so I always took note of that.
Like, man, that's a way to waste some smarts right there, assuming that you know more than you know.
I spent a career talking about my screw up to mistakes and setbacks, which in fact is a lead in the book because it was born from a mistake, sir.
Yes. Let's talk about the book because it's fascinating for me, especially as an author.
The approach that you've taken with this most recent book is really, really cool.
So let's set the stage, so tell the audience about the book.
The stage, to set the stage, I've got to do what I'm good at, make fun of myself.
So here we go, I read a modest amount.
I like to read novels, popular novels, mostly.
And I got this idea that gazillions of us have been inflicted with over the years that, you know, I think I could do that too.
I think that would be fun.
I'm going to try that and three times she got to throw three bricks at my head before I'll wake up.
I tried to do just that.
I finished three of him.
They're all three horrid.
Believe me, take my word for it.
Never to be published or seen again.
And I finally concluded about a year and a half ago on the third kind of side hustle fun activity attempt.
So I'm never doing that again.
And I'm going to save the energy I have for things that might make sense.
But there was a kernel of an idea in the third one, I didn't want to let go of, it was about this misfit monster of vampire in an office setting and some of the things, the challenges that he faced.
And I thought to myself, wait a minute, there's a genre I've often thought was kind of interesting that I said a few times, I should probably try that.
And I've never done it.
And that's the fable section of the business book world.
And so I sat down and said, well, if I was gonna do that, what would I do?
And ideas just started And blowing out of me, true story, six, seven hours later, first draft was done.
Oh, really? People like to say, you gotta stay in your lane?
I like to say you have to go find your lane first.
That's amazing. That is so interesting.
And I think that's just, it's a sign, you found it, right?
And you found that momentum.
This is really interesting.
So okay, vampire in an office setting, this is great.
And so for the listeners who are saying, And what in the world of vampire in an office study?
What is this about?
Let's start with the beginning, the end in mind.
Let's begin with the end in mind.
So when - We have a way of, we have a way of a vampire named Joe Vampire and he's a little cocky and full of himself, but really isn't that great a former anymore.
All monsters having of course, an obvious goal to learn how to scare children.
And the powers that be in the world of monsters start to come and give him some difficult feedback.
Long story short, they thought to save him, get them back on track and maybe help him realize his real potential.
They actually wanted to ask him to lead a group of other misfit monsters and together go try and take on a very difficult task.
Long story short, so there's a ghost and a zombie and a werewolf and so on.
And they're all struggling with self -confidence, struggling with finding their better self.
And Joe first screws up with them, does the things you're not supposed to do as a leader and realizes he's not getting any productivity out of this team.
Has a serious come to Jesus moment that was so fun to write about it was actually reflective of an event in my life and then starts to think about a far more productive way to relate to this group of monsters and the result was spectacular.
They all figured out how to take a real step forward and become the monsters they always wanted to be, and it's cute and fun and inspiring and maybe even educational, because after I finished the story, in the back end there's many pages of the discussion section where I lay out the very specifics about some of these basics that I want aspiring leaders and young leaders to really think about.
You know, for example, candor not just kindness.
So we are lost. You and I were talking about LinkedIn.
And LinkedIn is a good example of this and I just revere them but I can also critique them just like we can critique anything.
They love positivity in all its forms and try to really resist a lot of negativity.
And anything that sounds difficult for someone to hear.
Now there's a risk you've probably heard this term and oxy positivity.
It's a fairly new term.
The idea is simple, sometimes cultures really care so much about kindness, congeniality, positivity, all these related ideas, that we forget how to be difficult and critical in moments when we need to, because high performance requires candor, not just kindness.
That's the difficulty of feedback, the reality of feedback.
I think LinkedIn, actually some of my friends there are so kind, it warms my heart, that's not a joke.
and also have to remember what candor is all about and the role that it plays in pushing us forward to the best of our abilities.
And so finding up a vehicle with these goofy, strange monsters to try and talk about a few of these basics like candor, not just kindness, was a lot of fun.
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I love this, I am so interested to dig deeper into the candor versus kindness approach because this is a challenge for so many different organization because you're right a lot of times they focus on the feelings, okay we want people to feel good how do we make people feel good by being nice.
So that means we can't say bad things.
Okay, and now we're not having conversations.
Now we're not having tough conversations, right?
So so let's dig a little bit deeper into what exactly makes this balance so difficult for leaders in the professional world.
Well, first of all, everyone who shows up to work every day acts, which is kind of funny.
Most of us were not trained to be actors, but we manage impressions, which is just a type of acting to meet the expectations of those around us.
Our supervisor, our peers, our customers and clients, et cetera, and that is a sign of social intelligence.
But as we all I think know, when we think about it, we overindulge in that reality to the point that we have very measured and sometimes distant, dare I say plastic, relationships.
Transactions instead of relationships.
And that is a serious upside if you want to frame it correctly, as opposed to being a problem, it's a serious upside for the realization of and better relationships.
So why do we have trouble with candor?
We want to be nice and not problematic.
Why is that the problem?
because niceness alone only gets you so far.
Now let me be clear.
It is the expected, necessary, wonderful foundation for sure.
And it has to be sincere.
If you have a lot of candor, not a ton of positivity, you're gonna have people whose feathers are ruffled and conflict will be the thing of the day, man.
If you have tons and tons of positivity, not enough candor, you're gonna have a whole lot of people feeling decent about going to work who are not accomplishing amazing things.
If you have modest amounts of both, They'll shift over time as needed, but basically good amounts of both that provides the context within which the potential feather, or ruffling thing that is candor becomes digestible, useful, maybe even something I should care about and get excited about.
It's all about context that comes from the positivity.
Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
So I mean, more or less, we're trying to find that Goldilocks zone for each relationship and interaction.
I love the fact that you're not creating that false dichotomy.
Because a lot of people say, listen, I'm just going tell it what it is.
I'm not here to be nice.
I'm just here to hurt people's feelings apparently.
You have to have a little bit of that relationship building aspect, that niceness, because it makes you more persuasive and effective.
But like you said, if we tip too far into that niceness, now we're muddying the message because it's so clouded by the fluff that we can't even really understand what the message originally was supposed to be.
Go ahead. Why do people do that?
that I think it's because we lack empathy, and I'm so happy, thanks to many, many voices, even much greater than mine in the last 10 years or so, have taken a few issues, empathy and vulnerability come to mind is important, and they're covered in the book, so to speak, and brought them to the forefront because it used to be, let's pick on the 1980s, I'm a child of the 80s.
I think we peaked with greed is good in the 80s.
That was kind of the last era where it was unquestioned to say, performance is what matters.
Profit's achieving goals, that's what matters.
That is true those are useful.
Now we know that's incomplete.
It's a foundation. It's a big, maybe the biggest part of it.
But if you're ever ever gonna achieve anything you're gonna do it through positive relationships.
That sounds so obvious to you and me but it's not that many years old of an idea for it being as common as, high -performance is what matters.
It makes sense. Absolutely.
And this brings up something that we were talking about about before the podcast began, is the reality that we're living in a time now with this intergenerational workplace where we have five generations in the office at the same time.
If you grew up at that time, where greed is good, focus on profit and productivity and production exclusively, now you're going to be working next to somebody who grew up in the everybody's a winner type of era.
Can you tell us about some of those challenges that comes about?
There's huge challenges and there are just very dedicated experts out there who study the generations and their differences and similarities.
I don't consider myself one of them.
I'm more of a world -class leadership generalist.
Having said that, I'm fascinated by those generations.
Some of the differences are obvious.
I wrote the book for the younger millennials and z's that are starting to dominate even managerial roles at this point, because they do expect radically more than my dad's generation, for example, and he was a boomer, to have a voice.
That sounds like, to me, a concept I heard a little bit of in the front end of my career and a little more ever since.
And it's somewhat common now to think in terms of leadership is about dictating.
It's about collaborating.
It's not the rule in the book.
So people expect when they're in gen Z and most of the millennials, they expect to have an input.
They do not like, let me put it to you this way.
No adult has ever gone to work and just loved being treated like a child.
That is to say people just tell them what to do, give them dictates and don't engage them as a peer in dialogue about what maybe we should do at all.
I'm trying to draw on clear contrast here to make a point.
I know that every relationship is a mix of these things and that sometimes leaders do have to dictate there are circumstances that really justify that with emergencies and deadlines and so on.
Generally speaking, those young ones want a voice.
You want to know why?
Because ultimately compared to earlier generations, they want to feel a little more purpose and meaning in work, which to my dad's generation was a Looney Tunes idea.
I'm here to fulfill this transaction, make a paycheck and put food on the table for my family, which is not an unreasonable thing to say, by the way, but there is something even better you could say, which is that you know what?
We don't have to feel like we're wasting our time when we go to work.
We can feel purpose.
And I have actually great news of the recovering scholar to share with people about that topic.
You don't have to have your dream job, like I do, speaking and writing, pontificating for a living.
You don't have to have that quote unquote dream job to feel meaning and purpose at work, because Because the work itself is only one variable that impacts that experience.
The quality of relationships hugely impacts that feeling.
So you can be doing a job that you think is, well, good, not great, but be doing it with people you respect and often enjoy and you will feel purpose.
That's amazing. And I love the fact that you brought together the value of purpose and meaning, but also recognizing that the relationships that you have at work would play a massive role in that in how good you feel at work and how connected and engaged you feel at work.
And again, it's going to be tough to feel that positivity from these relationships, if we're not having these conversations, if we're not leaning in and having difficult conversations, when appropriate, and can you go a little bit deeper into when it comes to the relationships that we have at work?
Well, there's some basics for people to remember there.
For sure. You know, we spend more time at I don't know what more brick to the head hit you in the gut kind of shot you can take than that.
We spend more time with our folks at work.
And the question is, is it a positive or negative experience?
It's a weird time because on the one hand, we're starting to recognize through certain areas of org scholarship, lots of different types of medical and mental health professionals.
Now that work is killing people.
I like to say it bluntly because the U S has been on again and off again the most productive as by the formulas that they produce, to see which employees are working the most hours and producing the most value for their organizations.
We've topped that list on many occasions over the last couple of decades.
On the one hand that's really brilliant.
Look at us, kicking it, just really doing well.
On the other hand there's a consequence to be seen for excessive dedication to clock in the hours and working for the man.
And those health statistics are now idling up the pandemic kind of accelerated some of them but they were already a fascinating topic, growing topic of conversation before the pandemic.
The physical reality of a state like sitting in a chair is piling up in known predictable things that are gonna happen to the human body.
The mental health impact of goals and stress and excessive hours away from friends and family level is producing predictable health challenges.
I'm not making anything up or saying anything controversial.
So at the same time all that is maybe coming to a head, we're seeing over the last, I don't know, 10 years, a lot of new voices talking about what you and I are talking about today, which is humane, productive, healthy, maybe progressive ways to think about relationships driving all that really matters at work, because the more we tend to that, the more we get one good answer to the health issues that have emerged and help people feel some of that purpose.
Like they're not wasting their time every day.
What more beautiful thang could you possibly say, right?
Absolutely. And you're right.
It is connected and it's almost like sometimes the most obvious things are hardest to see, and it's fascinating to see how we still struggle with it even though we recognize the truth right now.
Now here's something that I've seen in some organizations, you have some people who are working, working, working, working, working, like you said, I like the way that you described it.
Excessive dedication and now one of the things that I'm recognizing some leaders are struggling with is, hey I'm trying to pay attention to the mental health and happiness of my team, and I'm recognizing that some people are working really, really hard to the point where it might be unhealthy.
How do I get somebody on my team to actually slow down, even though it seems antithetical to their position?
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's a very difficult one to answer for people that are practicing.
I got to tell you, one of the worst things you could do as a leader or leadership team is to espouse certain values and then not appear to live up to them.
That's worse than ever even saying that you do value the thing that you didn't really do, and work -life balance, which kind of gets it what you're talking about, is one of those.
So we value you and your family and all kinds of things and you shouldn't be working too late, doshe, garnet.
And then the pressure down on the average team is that you better stay here, you better be late with me, we better get it done, but there's a lot of pressure.
We don't want the boss and the clients to be upset, et cetera.
So I answer your question by saying leaders model the way.
If you're serious about that, and you have to work hard to figure out how to be so excellent in your processes and your hiring, et cetera, that you can get away with this, But if you want to really lead the way it doesn't start with saying these things are important work -life balance But by showing it it's when the ceo Whoever they might be does come in late once in a while and explain it because he had a human thing He had to do and leave by five o 'clock And then while he's leaving walk through and see a whole bunch of people to make sure they see him or her or whatever leaving, so it's actually
real. Some companies, by the way, are very serious about it.
Maybe I admire their efforts even if it's kind of weird what they're doing, but they'll try and see people who aren't living up to that work -life balance.
Work isn't everything mentality.
And if they catch them doing emails or using work phones after hours, they'll dock them some way with by making fun of them at the office or by charging them a small nominal fee to make a point.
All kinds of weird creative things are happening to make people behaviorally start to inch towards the ideal instead of just espousing the ideal?
So there isn't a perfect answer to that question yet, but I can tell you the leaders who care about it for real are going to try to first and foremost, embrace it themselves and show others that it's okay to feel the struggle and it's okay to try to take a step in the direction of sanity and health, not just clocking the hours.
Brilliant, you're absolutely right.
And I think a lot of times, not just as leaders, but just humans in general, we forget the power of modeling the behavior, we want to see we forget the power, the persuasive value of actually doing the things and showing people what it is that we want.
And so I'm really glad that you said that because again, this is a negotiation podcast, we like to focus on the words that we say, often overlooked just our behaviors, those are really the most important things that we can do when it comes to being persuasive.
Definitely an underrated topic.
As far as I'm concerned, people learn vicariously just by watching others quite effortlessly, because they don't feel the risks involved in a direct interaction with the person.
It's kind of cool. In the book, I had the vampire, for example, one time, after telling, I'm not giving away too much here, but after telling his crew of misfit monsters to try and jump through something and go scare some kids, he actually realized how aggressive and maybe inappropriate he handled that situation.
And on round two, so to speak, he realized he wanted to stand before them full of being vulnerable and showing the risks of potential failure and say, I need to show you that I can do this before I can start telling you how you should be doing it.
and he modeled the way by demonstrating the behavior, not knowing if he's going to be successful because he'd struggled too, but in this case, he was successful, and that's priceless.
Now, it's not just a value espoused, it's a behavior engaged.
I know some leaders are getting chills.
Like, absolutely not, Todd.
I will never put myself in that position.
But you're so right to see how powerful that is.
I think about it even in parenting, too.
One of the most powerful things you can do for your kids is let them know that I'm not perfect.
And if you're a good parent that's present a lot, it's easy for your child when they're young to say, oh, this is Superman, this is Superwoman, they can do no wrong.
But I found a lot of value just being honest when I don't have it, when I make mistakes and just owning up to it because it makes it easier for the kids to do it too.
And I think just again, reinforcing the beauty of our own humanity is so encouraging and motivating.
It's essentially what we really crave in leaders.
but as leader sometimes we can forget that.
And it's very hard to be vulnerable in that way.
It is and I can tell your listeners, it's a skill over time you can learn, meaning at least you can gain comfort with it.
I just applaud you saying you do that with your kids, I know my boys are a little older than yours, I got a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college and we're basketball folks, players, and fans throughout the years and we'd like to say, I like to say to them, I've said it so many times, it's hilarious, you gotta shoot your shot, they're not gonna all go in.
You gotta shoot your shot.
You miss 100%, so it said Jordan and a million others.
The shots you don't take.
And I really, really, really believe that.
So people know me for maybe two successes, if I'm being honest, they don't know about the 15 that were ugly, crash and burn.
I've got plenty of them and they hurt for a period that I learned like you're supposed to and tried to move forward in a more productive way, just like I did by switching formats in the book that I was sharing with you.
I just wanted to validate you and say, yeah, there's tons of parallels to parenting, and I have definitely adopted these, Show them the imperfection parts to my boys as well.
And I'd like to believe it's had a good effect.
Definitely. Oh, this is great.
This is really great.
And I think this is a great way to wrap it up too, because it's an ode to continuous improvement, because you're not going to just listen to this podcast and be like, you know what, Todd's right.
I'm going to be uber vulnerable tomorrow.
It's just not how it works.
And I like thinking about it as a skill and just saying, listen, every day, every week, every month, every year, I'm going to try to be a little bit more open.
show a little bit more of myself and be that human leader that I want to be, and I think that's incredibly powerful and I think it's just incredible and very impressive that you are able to show the value of human leadership through a vampire who's not a human.
Todd, man. I appreciate you.
Before you go, let the listeners know again about the new book and all of the LinkedIn courses and the best way to get in touch.
Well, I have two homes online, thanks for asking.
So there's DrDewitt .com, it's my personal site, but where I spent a ton of time, of course, is LinkedIn.
If we're not connected, I'd love to say hi.
Please reach out on LinkedIn.
The book is Dancing with Monsters and it should be available anywhere on planet Earth, you buy books.
Love it, Todd, appreciate you man.
Thanks for coming on the show.
My pleasure, take care, bud.
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