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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Amreen, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you, Kwame, for inviting me to your show.
Really appreciate it.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Absolutely. My name is Amreen Ramban.
I'm a mechanical engineer by profession.
And over the last decade, I have worked in many industries.
I started my career in mining.
I worked in the oil sands of Alberta, then I worked in gas utility, gas distribution, and then I made the pivot into telecommunications.
So whenever somebody asks me about career advice, I say, hmm, if you're ready for a mosaic or a puzzle, then that's what you're going to get with me, because I have transitioned many times across multiple industries as an engineer, but also as a people leader later on in my career.
And I've always noticed that BIPOC women or Black, Indigenous and women of color were fairly rare in STEM and also in the workplace overall, and even less and less visibility as we move on or progress into the first level leadership and beyond that.
So it really made me think about the challenges faced by visible minority women in the Canadian workplace.
And I became really passionate to promote diversity and inclusion, but also excellence, BIPOC excellence within the workplace.
And so I started my podcast to interview guests, women who have already had stellar careers and reached peak career success, vice presidents, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies all the way to non -for -profit organizations as well to talk about their career success.
And what were some of the barriers and challenges they have overcome to reach that success?
You know, that's my journey.
That's my mission, really to advance and promote Black, Indigenous and women of color in STEM and in leadership.
This is fantastic. And when we were chatting beforehand, you told a story about a family that you ran into in the store.
And I want you to share that story because it shows the importance of the work that you do.
And then we'll move into the episode.
Certainly. So when I was doing my podcast, I didn't really broadcast it too much to my employer.
I was mostly just promoting on LinkedIn and Instagram and getting tremendously positive responses, not just, you know, surprisingly, not just for women of color, but even men, because some of the issues we talk about, such as, you know, workplace bullying or, you know, advancement, these are universal
concepts, and anybody can listen in and learn from the challenges that, you know, women are having, but also there's takeaways for men as well.
So I have received a lot of great response, but never really within my organization because I didn't really like to talk about it.
But then they found out, and because I used to work at a telecommunication organization, they had to have a community programming TV channel, you know, by regulation, like the Canadians, like RTRC, any major telecom organization needs to have community programming as part of their social outreach.
So they decided, hey, why don't we just put you on TV?
You do this podcast.
We might as well do it in video formats, kind of like what we're doing right now, Kwame, and broadcast it.
So of course I said, yes, you know, what a great opportunity to just reach my own community and beyond.
And I did that. And, you know, it was, every time I did a podcast show, it was running on the channel.
And one day I was just doing grocery shopping here in my city.
And I met a mom and her young daughter.
They came up to me and the mother just, you know, chitchat, she asks, you know, I think I may have seen you on TV.
And I live in a fairly white majority community.
So I think my face is quite recognizable for most people.
And I said, yes, well, yeah, I do have a show.
And she said, yes, you were talking about women advancing in the workplace.
We're talking about how we can study, have a STEM education and, you know, contribute towards the Canadian economy and how diversity is so important in enabling that.
And I said, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, I'm really glad that you watched my show.
Thank you so much for the time that you took to do that.
And she said she's there from Somalia.
And the mom says, you know, we came to Canada 10 years ago.
And I understand that for me it's too late to go back to school or do anything to my career.
I'm just happy with my job.
It puts food on the table and I'm satisfied with my life.
But, you know, I made my nine -year -old daughter watch the show because I feel that she can truly have a future here.
This is a new opportunity for her.
And having that role model is so important.
If she could see that there's women who look, you know, who were like her immigrants, first generation immigrants, women of color, if they are talking about these ideas, talking about promotions, getting into management, getting into the C -suite, this is good for her because it shows what's possible
for us too. And that really touched me Kwame.
I, you know, I was a bit emotional at the time to hear that from a mom.
And, you know, it just really made me feel very blessed that I had that opportunity for my voice or my content to get into homes and families at the ground level.
So yeah, it was very rewarding for me.
This is great. And I appreciate you sharing that story too, because it shows not only the impact that you have, but also the passion that you have for it.
And that's critical, you know, because representation matters and it's hard to see yourself advancing in a society or a company if you don't see people who look like you somewhere represented there.
Absolutely. I think that's very important.
That's part of what I'm doing here with negotiation as well, because there's not that much representation in this field.
So want to provide opportunities and let people see that as possible.
And one of the things that I know people in your audience struggle with, and I know for me, when I've been doing my keynotes and trainings, I see this with just everywhere is the struggle of influence without authority.
We're in a situation where we might not have rank in this interaction.
We might not have authority and the person knows that they could completely ignore our recommendations or suggestions.
And so it's really tough when you find yourself in that position, how do we persuade?
And so for to start off, I would love for you to kind of set the stage when it comes to influence without authority.
And tell us a bit of what you've seen in your career as a mechanical engineer and also a people leader too.
Absolutely. So I was a big believer, and this is probably coming from a brown family.
Work hard. Your work speaks for itself.
Be the hardest worker in the room and the rewards will come.
Okay? I believe that for the longest time.
And I thought if I do a good job and then I'm presenting my idea to someone, they're just going to see how highly, how high value I am already.
And they're going to listen to me.
Right? So influence is something that I find that they're like seeds, like you sow seeds and it takes time.
Like gradually they grow.
And I think influence is very similar.
You can't just boom have influence, like just like that.
It's building credibility through your work, definitely through your actions, but also through how you communicate, how you present yourself, how do you set and address or demonstrate your vision.
That is so important.
And what I found in my own career as a woman of color, influence is hard to come by because oftentimes you don't even have that network.
Your network is your network.
We all know that, right?
And a lot of that gives you that influence.
But what if you don't have it?
How do you even begin to get that influence without authority?
And there's three things that I believe personally that is required to have that influence without authority.
Number one, it is true what they say, be a hard worker and demonstrate your results.
Because at the end of the day, even though we say that your word doesn't speak for yourself per se, you still have to advocate for yourself, but you still need those results.
You still need to show people that you are able to get solutions, you are able to solve problems.
That's number one. Number two, what I just mentioned a while ago, advocacy.
It's not just enough to work hard and hope that your results will speak for yourself.
You have to self advocate.
We are our products too.
We need to sell ourselves.
We need to put that idea out there that this is what we're doing.
This is how we're building a product or we're building consensus or we're building a vision, whatever it is that you're doing, it needs to be out there.
That's number two. Number three, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
This is what I've noticed.
I'm just going to speak from a corporate perspective.
We've always find that, okay, I have to please my manager or just my frontline manager or team lead and just impress that person.
When we don't realize that we're constantly being watched from all levels of leadership, if you're doing a good job, if you're really trying to promote yourself and advocate yourself, there is some visibility on you and you can't really rely just on one person to give you those opportunities or that one
person to speak well of you.
Again, don't put your eggs all in one basket.
Try to network, try to build relationships and really build relationships.
When I say that, not just like let's have a coffee one day and then boom, I'm done.
Checkbox. You're on my network now.
No, it's very much a nurturing relationship.
Build relationships with people from at all levels and an organization.
Again, I'm just speaking from a corporate perspective, not just with your direct leader, but their bosses, leaders from other departments, right?
You have to be building those relationships and really nurturing them.
Find ways to give value.
Sometimes I feel that as young people, you might feel that what do I have to tell a director?
What do I have to give this person?
Why would this person invest any time in me?
It might sound odd to young people, but they also have something of value to add, right?
There's people who are in positions of power are very much interested in the perspectives of the new and upcoming generation, how they're thinking, how the world is working, what's going on in TikTok.
You know what I mean?
There's always something that you can teach them and in turn receive their wisdom and the value that they have, they can definitely share that with you as well.
So those are the three things that I recommend for someone to have influence without authority.
Again, it's not a race, it's a marathon.
You build, you build it, you build influence.
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I love all of this.
I was sitting here feverishly taking notes, Emery, and this is really strong.
So let me do a quick recap.
So we have three things.
First, be a hard worker and get results.
Sell yourself, advocate for yourself, and help to build that vision.
And then don't put your eggs in one basket.
Just recognize that other people are watching.
You have multiple stakeholders, and there's usually multiple ways to achieve victory.
And it's not always through just one singular person.
So building relationships, not just with the person who we might be reporting to, but also people in their vicinity, in their orbit, that's important.
And then I'll put this as an added bonus.
Find ways to give value.
This is really, really strong because I think first of all, you might not know this, but I'm a child of immigrants too.
And so I got that whole hard work, hard work.
Well, what else should I do, Mom and Dad?
Well, you should try working harder, Kwame.
I got that. It's universal.
I'm telling you it doesn't matter where from the world you are.
Seriously. Yeah. But I think we often miss that point.
I was talking to one of my mentees the other day and he was saying, Hey, I want to be persuasive in this organization.
How do I advocate for positive change in my organization?
And I said, Hey, man, listen, your heart is in the right place.
But the best way for you to be persuasive is to get your work done.
Be exceptional. Because a lot of times what ends up happening is that people get so focused on creating positive change in their organization that they lose sight of the fact that they have another job to do.
And you're not going to be persuasive with an organization if people are questioning your value.
Hey, hey, it sounds like you're just here stirring up stuff and not getting your work done.
So why would I ever listen to you?
The foundation of getting results is so critical, but often overlooked.
And then recognizing that you have to build this vision and sell yourself to a lot of times we like to think to ourselves, Oh yeah, I have the facts, I have the data and everything that should be enough.
It's obvious. And then a lot of times we would get surprised that the facts don't work.
What do I do then? If they simply disagree, well, we have to be able to have those persuasive skills.
And then just recognizing the fact that sometimes we have to engage in some coalition building.
Sometimes we need to recruit allies to help us move forward.
And this is not just in the sense of inclusion and belonging, but allies for your vision within the workforce, who sees it the way that you do.
Let's bring them to the conversation too.
So I really love the clarity and simplicity, but also the power of this because it works, but it will take some time.
And I'm glad that you added that part too.
Absolutely. I mean, it might sound a little cliche if I say this again, Kwame, but make a friend before you need a friend.
It's so important to remember, and I feel that many of us either don't have that awareness till we need it, or it's just too late in the game.
So I think, okay, first of all, let me just be very strict with you.
It costs zero dollars to be a nice person.
It costs maybe a bit of your time to help someone out, but those two things take you so far because likability, there's real power in likability.
There's real power in being perceived as a genuine, nice and empathetic person.
And it really doesn't cost much.
It doesn't cost money, maybe a little bit of your time, but it pays dividends in unmeasurable worth and value.
So yeah, just wanted to add those two cents.
This is the first of all, that was way more than two cents.
Do not sell yourself short here.
This is great. I've never heard it described this way, make a friend before you need a friend, because I think we all could think about friends or especially family members, you get a text, you're like, Oh boy, what does this person need?
Okay. So it's so, it is so beneficial because it can become really transparent.
Oh, I see this pattern.
Emoryne only reaches out when she wants something right.
That is not persuasive.
You're starting off the conversation in a way where the person is already resistant.
And then also you're right.
It costs nothing to be a nice person, but the reality is it can get you so much value and the value can just be a mutual relationship with people who care about each other.
And then down the road, there may be a request that we need to make.
We might need to call in a favor, perhaps, but that's not the reason why we're doing it.
It has to have that legitimate foundation because we are becoming as a society increasingly more skeptical because every day somebody's trying to sell us something.
And so we're always defending ourselves.
And so there's a lot of value in having a relationship with somebody where you can feel safe.
And then when you have that safety and you have that trust, it makes the difficult conversation way easier because you have a firm foundation of the relationship.
One thing I've learned, Kwame, is people might not remember what you said, not your exact words, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
And I try to be more aware of my words because I might say something or it might come off as me implying something that might hurt someone or rub them the wrong way.
So I think we have to be very careful in how we use our words.
They're very powerful tools.
We can either make or break a connection, make or break a relationship.
So it's very important to be able to visualize that and realize that feelings really are important.
People do a lot of things just by feel.
It's not always logic.
It's not always data.
It's not always trends and analytics and patterns.
A lot of times people make decisions purely based on gut and purely based on feel.
And they're just so important to recognize and remember.
Absolutely. And now with this, we've set a really firm foundation for just relationship building in general, but also persuasion.
And so let's say we've done this work.
We've taken the opportunity to make these deposits into the relationship bank account.
We're creating value and helping people and we have a great relationship.
Now we're in a situation where, all right, now this is a tough conversation.
And now I'm approaching my manager, my boss, person who holds the cards, who holds all of the power in this interaction and they can do whatever they want.
But I'm trying to get them to do something specific.
How would you approach that conversation?
So definitely cast them at a time where you know that they're not going to be very stressful.
So don't do it after like the end of quarter capital budget meeting.
Definitely just be cognizant of what might be going on in their plate first.
Because again, it's a lot about emotions, right?
Where is your bandwidth?
Do you have the capacity to have this conversation right now where I'm making an ask?
So definitely be aware of that.
But also again, I would hope that when I'm making that ask of my manager, I have already set a foundation for the ask and it's just not coming out of the blue, right?
I should be having, you know, regular checkpoints or regular touch -ins, sorry, touch points about, you know, where I'm going towards what my aspirations are and, or you know, like what maybe I'm trying to do a new project.
What's the vision here and how I'm going to approach it?
So definitely it shouldn't be something that's just off the blue and you know, off the cuff.
So yeah, definitely build that foundation.
Make sure that you are known to be a reliable person.
You're known to be someone with integrity because it's just so much easier to get buy -in as if people believe in you, but also in your integrity and your honesty.
And you know, they know that you're going to do what you say and it should be worthy of their time to invest in you or it should be, you know, it should make sense for them to be seen as being aligned with you.
That's something very important.
I think people do think about, okay, this person, if I give him or if I give this person my backing, how does that make me look?
Is she or he reliable?
Have they, have they done a good job, typically?
Am I going to regret this later on?
So, you know, again, everything takes time, right Kwame?
Even when I'm asking, making my ask, I should have invested enough in that relationship.
I should have done the work and built that credibility and integrity that just increased my chances of success.
Brilliant. I love this.
And I love the fact that you focused on the word investment there at the end, because we are talking about investments, not winning lottery tickets and winning a lot in no time at all with zero effort, right?
Because a lot of times the mistake that we make when we say to ourselves, how do I achieve influence without authority in this conversation?
If you just started thinking about it for that conversation, you've already lost because you should have been investing in the relationship the entire time, demonstrating that you are aligned in this issue and they should not be shocked at the fact that you're coming at them with this information or this request,
constantly priming them throughout the entirety of the relationship and chipping away at it.
So then it becomes almost obvious.
The majority of the work should have been done days, weeks, and months in advance of the actual conversation.
And if you decide to have the conversation and say, this is the conversation where I'm going to persuade my manager to change their entire worldview, good luck.
It's going to be very tough to do.
But one thing though Kwame, it just occurred to me, sometimes even your own manager might not have the authority to give you what you want.
And this is not something that many of us are aware of, right?
Because sometimes, especially in early career, we don't really understand organizational politics or we don't really understand how hierarchies work.
So we might think that, oh, it's all in their hands now.
And that's all I need to do.
Again, the third point, putting all your eggs in one basket, right?
Hoping that just your manager is enough to influence something in your favor.
It takes a bit of time and a lot of effort and a lot of just interdepartmental communications to kind of gauge, depending on the opportunity, what are you looking for?
Who are... It's just not my manager who needs to give the green light.
Who else is there beyond him or above him or her, for them, really, who might have some influence over the decision too?
So you're not, again, putting your eggs in one basket.
You're ready. You know that you have to convince your manager, but you also know that you might have to have those elevator pitch conversations with the director if they're available.
Just putting it in, right?
Obviously you'll talk to your manager, but make sure that you're building those, putting those seeds in there too.
So that's just something to be aware of.
That is a crucial thing for us to be aware of as well.
Because essentially if we don't understand the org chart and we don't understand the limitations of power that our manager might have, we might be asking for the impossible and creating a very strange conversation.
Exactly. It reflects poorly on you too, because you're saying, how well can you understand this situation if you don't even understand how to get it done organizationally?
So it diminishes your credibility.
And so maybe the negotiation isn't for a specific decision to be made, but maybe the negotiation is for your manager to become an ally with you in this process.
It's coalition building because maybe you by yourself don't have the political capital to get it done, but they do or they plus you or somebody else does.
So you will include them as part in this process.
And I think that's a really strong way to go forward.
Absolutely. There's usually more than one decision maker.
We might not see it because a lot of conversations are happening behind closed doors and water cooler tracks.
We don't really see it, but they're happening.
And the more well or the more effectively we know who those stakeholders are and who are those people with the authority are chances of success just increased.
Love this. This is really good.
And one more question, Emoryne, for the audience, because I know a lot of people are asking, what is the name of your podcast and how can they get in touch with you?
Thank you so much for giving me a chance to just shamelessly plug in myself.
But yeah, my podcast is called Count Me Too.
I just chose that name because a lot of times black indigenous women of color feel that they're invisible.
We can be hyper visible, because, you know, just being we might be minorities, we might be the one and only like there's been several times where I was not just the only woman, but the only person of color or the only immigrant in an engineering team that has happened, right?
So they're hyper visible, but kind of invisible when it comes to really getting advancement and progression, right?
So that's where the, you know, representation matters.
As you said, you can't be it till you see it.
It's very powerful.
And that's why the name Count Me Too, that I also exist, and I'm here.
And I deserve this.
So that's how the name came about for me in my head.
And I all started really after with 2020, with the very unfortunate killing of, you know, George Floyd.
And we definitely felt that, okay, this is a time that we can talk about racial equity, and we can talk about inclusion, not just diversity, not just flowery language, that, you know, it's all just let's hold hands on kubaya.
No, like actual real change, where we can talk about these difficult conversations, but nonetheless, conversations that need to be had.
So that's where my podcast came with a focus on the experiences and very real challenges of black indigenous and other women of color, and not just in Canada, but really, I have a desk from North America.
It's for really anyone who wants to learn about our experiences, learn about some of the challenges that we face, you know, being invisible, when it matters, but being very visible otherwise.
So that was my vision.
And that's where my podcast started.
And if you'd like to hear it, it streams across all channels, where you get your podcast, Apple iTunes, Spotify, Anchor, well, Anchor is bought by Spotify now.
But yeah, if you just Google, count me to you can listen to it on any platforms very extremely.
Love it. Emoryne, thank you so much for joining us and listeners.
We will put links to Emoryne's podcast and her LinkedIn in the description.
Thank you again. This was exceptional.
Thank you, Kwame. I really appreciate this.
Thanks. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again.
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