Discussion keeps the worldturning.
This is RoundTable. Helloeverybody, welcome to RoundTable.
Coming to you fromBeijing, I'm HaYoung.
Good to have you along for today'sshow.
Imagine a world where your time is the currency and every act of kindness is a deposit into a bank of humanconnection.
Sounds too good to betrue?
Well, the Time Bank movement is making it a reality and it's giving a whole new meaning to thephrase, Time isMoney.
We explore how this innovative concept is changing elderly care in China one hour at atime.
And summer is synonymous with refreshing fruits such as watermelon andlychee, yet thisyear.
Enjoying lychee might come with a hefty pricetag.
Climate factors have reduced yields and driven upcosts.
Protecting our foodmarkets.
What does it mean for our summer fruitbaskets?
For today'sprogram, I'm joined by you shun and you shun in thestudio.
First, on a day'sshow. Time isprecious.
And what if we could trade it for something even morevaluable?
Enter the Time Bankmovement, where hours spent helping others become a currency of care andconnection.
InChina, this movement is making waves in the realm of elderlycare.
Thistime, in the city ofNanjing, Time Bank has many individuals dedicating their time to care for the elderly in exchange for services or assistance in thefuture.
So let's go back in time and look at what the origin story is for TimeBanking.
So TimeBanking, this idea originates from various 19th century socialist thinkers and it was coined and trademarked by American lawyer EdgarKhan, who advocated its use to supplement government socialservices.
And it is an idea based on the value of reciprocity and the idea that everyone has something to contribute to theircommunity, regardless of their financialstatus.
Because in this community orsystem, you can actually exchange services with eachother.
And labor time units can be credited to a person's account in the TimeBank, we callit.
And the labor work can actually theoretically beanything, whether cooking ameal, mowing a lawn or justrepairing.
And then when you're old and needhelp, you can actually redeem your time for services from other members of the TimeBank.
So this is basically the idea of save up your time in abank.
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting how China adoptedthis,say, system or rather a Time Banking model into our specialcases, which is ofcourse, attending those services to an agingpopulation, which is to provide more service to the elderly caredirection.
And also I read that here inNanjing, as you justmentioned,Ho-Yang, there's this person who is like a teacher at a local vocational school named XuShou-Lan.
So thisperson, she is personally involved in a lot of projects and research in dealing with the challenges faced by an elderly caringsociety.
And also she initiated this plan in Nanjing on how people can adapt this Time Banking service providing model catered to elderly care service providing aswell.
Yeah, so there's plenty todo.
And actually there has been a lot of reports onthis.
And what's really interesting to me now looking at this is actually every time when we talk aboutit, it is a novel and newconcept.
And look at uslike, I remember maybe we featured this a couple of years ago on the show aswell.
So I guess for people to really accept it and for it to really gaintraction, especially if let's say on a widerscale, I think there are still many hurdles and challenges that we could explore how to overcome or just this is such a wonderful idea when you look at it from theinception,right?
And then I can't help but chuck a little bit when you shouldn't sort of cite it some of the American examples of what people do to help out other elderly people like mowing along and also sorting out taxes inAmerica.
You actually need to employ somebody and accountant to sort out yourtaxes.
And it's infamouslytroublesome.
InChina,basically, youjust,well, unless you have vast amounts ofwealth, Isuppose, but for an averageperson, you just fire up that tax app and then get the stuff done in like 10 minutes orless.
So it's really interesting what people cando, Isuppose, here in China when we talk about elderly care and the potential help that people could get fromit, you shouldn't you alluded to it could beanything.
Butalso, I'm not sure if everybody or anybody can sort of provide theseservices, there's the haircutting, there'scooking, there's otherstuff, but I'm curious to hear from you guys like what are some of the fields that people could get into if they want to sort of deposit your time and in exchange for care in the yearsahead.
So how does itwork?Yeah,actually, we can see inNanjing, an online platform with CD-wide access was put into operation and these elderly individuals place orders on theplatform, which include over 20services, forexample, homecleaning, haircutting, emotionalsupport, groceryshopping, medication purchase and accompanying medicalconsultations, etc likethese.
And volunteers then take orders and provide services at the recipientshomes.
And ofcourse, some people may saythat,wow, this kind of like a full process application that we canuse, would that be a little hard for these elderly people to actually operate on theirsmartphones?
Ofcourse, volunteers thought about that and you can actually place an order in like in the community and then they may just you know give orders to these volunteers like collectively with all of theserequests.
Okay, so you have sort of like a unified system that doesn't necessarily operate online because I think for a lot of olderfolks, the minute when they are told you need to get online to dothis, it's kind of like off puttingimmediately, it kind of deters them from doingthat.
So actually it is quite important to sort of build a system that is really useful and friendly to the folks of that particular age bracket that we're talking abouthere,right?
Ofcourse, but in themeantime, we have to consider the fact that a lot of those orders are actually placed by the familymembers, the children of these oldpeople.
So they're under thatsufficient.
Yeah, ofcourse. And also in themeantime, they probably don't have time to do all these like daily affairs for the old people in theirfamily.
And that is why they try to find time efficient ways to hire or rather have other service providers to come to where the elders live and actually like provide services forthem.
So that's I think the main reason behind the establishment of the online platform that we're talking abouthere.
Because I also read that these whole platform is transparent that the person that placed the order can see through the entireprocess, like when the services provide by whom and also whether the service is ongoing or if it's already closed andcompleted.
So I think in away, it kind of catered to the family members as themain,say, quote unquote customers of this onlineservice.
So you mean they're the users who are actually placing theorder, but the recipient is most likely an elderlyperson.
And I don't mean to be meanhere, but I just want to sort things out like in a in broaddaylight.
Okay. So we're talking about a systemthat,okay, verynice.
There's the transparency online aspect ofit.
But also when we talk about who's the recipient or thereceiver,okay, that might be an elderlyperson.
And who's the giver who's doing all this labor and providing care and don't forget in exchange for care when the giver is old or needscare,right?
But to start the ballrolling, it seems like at themoment, maybe for the first batch ofreceivers, I'm starting to pointout, but they might not have given in thebeginning.
So I'm just curious for those who want to getinvolved, youknow, how do you make of this sort ofsystem?
And also I think it's pretty natural for people if they're giving and they want to receive something in the longterm.
And I suppose there could be a trust issuehere.
There could be concerns about whether earned time could be successfully redeemed in thefuture, whether this could work or not kind of depends onthat.
So you guys are bothyouthful, Gen Zfolks.
How do you viewthis? Do you think that this trust issue is central to whether the system can work ornot?
I think absolutely these are some ofthe, Ithink, obstacles or challenges that we maycounter.
But beforethat, I would liketo, I think explain that why there are some people that would like to go intothis, no matter they are the service provider or they receive these services because there is a market and there is demand forit.
Based on this Shuxiolianobservation, who is also an advocate of time banking inChina, how do we people prefer to live in their own homes forretirement, rather than in nursinghomes?
I think one reason is that these high-end nursing homes with good services are relativelyexpensive.
And another reason is that inherent impressions and certain restrictions people may have about nursinghomes.
We actually have that kind of news exposed that some mistreatment of these caregivers in nursing homes and maybe the time limit and some of the limited freedom in certain area of this nursing home may be the concern of these retiredouterlies.
So I think this is one of the reasons thatthis, Ithink, system or modelis, Ithink, promote and advocatedwidely, actuallyglobally.
Well, if you're not receiving what you expect or what's promised or whatever itis, then you're avolunteer.
Imean, that'scool. I have respect for allvolunteers.
But it'sjust, what's up with the fancy name of TimeBank?
Butanyhow.Yeah. But the thingis, why it is called TimeBank?
Because when you're providingservices, you're actually accumulating credits foryourself.
And when you are inneed, you can actually redeem thisservice.
Andyeah, the thing is that's the quality of the time that you spend will it be equal to the time that youget?
Yeah. And let's get allweedy.
There's also the risk ofinflation.
If the Time Bank grows rapidly and the increased demand for services can lead toinflation, or as time moveson, it's also possible that inflation becomes an issue and might even reduce the purchasing power of earned timecredits.
Butanyhow, not to rate on this parade of a wonderfulmodel, I wouldn't necessarily say is this asolution, but it's turned out tobe, Iguess, sort of pretty standard these days that it's the younger older folks whoparticipate.
And I guess the thought here is that maybe they'll be able to redeem thesecredits, not in like the farfuture, but maybe in the nearfuture.
SoYushan, could you tell us a bit more about how this whole thing has panned out inChina?
Becauseactually, since Nanjing has rolled out its pilot programs in2019, Imean, a few cities in China as well asNanjing, they've had their experiences in how to make thiswork.
Yeah, ofcourse. Imean, in Nanjing'scase,well, there are actually many say younger elderlyindividuals, like yousaid, HuYang, who have thetime, havethe, also the freedom and the will to look after people that are older than theyare.
So in somecases,like, forexample, there's one case here that says like a 62-year-old lady named Zhen NingHui, she has retired for seven years and while she herself is in good health and she has like thiscalm, gentle and patient nature that is just there for her to already be equipped with the great qualities to attend in like elderly care and services alongside that direction aswell.
So she joined the time bank for already for three years and she's accumulated over 630 hours for her service time and also she'sbeen, youknow, observing and learning alongside her service providing aswell.
Like she listened to a lot of the people like beyond their 80s or 90s and youknow, like she attended their knees and also provide her services and listened to them while probably those old people's own children or family members couldn't hear them out foryears.
And then these say younger elderlyindividuals, they are themain, I think they're the main force in this casethat's, youknow, providing a lot of theservices.
And alsoactually, aside from these younger elderly individuals joining this timebanking, so more recently an increasing number of young people have joined theinitiative.
I heard your concern that whether the time will be the inflation ofthese, youknow, time and whether they can actually redeem thistime.
But I think another concept is quite good is that timegifting.
So young people can actually gift their time that they accumulated to their relatives or to theirparents.
So forexample, a daughter can transfer her accumulated service time to hermother.
As arecipient?Yes. And it's just like a bankaccount, youknow, allowing your immediate family members to enjoy the time that you'veaccumulated.
And it is a goodway. And many people also say that this is a way to obtain fair retirement services at the lowest cost because this is basically equal to what you havegiven.
Well how do you like thesystem?
Well,personally, I'm feeling a little bit complicated here to be honest becauseyeah, if you have the time and the efforts and the will to serve some other elders and other people'sfamilies, why do you have to go through all that process to get that time credit in orderto, youknow, use it for say your own mother orfather.
Why don't you just take care of your own mom anddad?
They are in differentplaces.
Oh, that's a goodpoint.
Okay. So theoffspring, the grown upkids, they live in a differentcity.
And Imean,yeah, under thisscenario, let'ssay, we talked abouthow, youknow, say uncertain we are to wait until say 50 years later or 40 years later for the volunteers around the age ofus, which is in their 20s or30s, to expect to redeem those timecredits.
In the sametime, we can just accumulate that time and use it for our family members so that they canreceive,say, services that we can't be there to provide inperson.
I think you cleared up for a lot ofpeople.
Yes. And certainly there must be some of these verycare,loving, giving young people who want to getinvolved.
And also maybe a more practical way how this works iswith, youknow, some of the folks who are in their 60s and inChina, when you hit the big6.0, actually a fair portion of our workforce canretire.
And thanks to improved living standards and having all that time at hand and maybe looking after people who are even older than you and redeeming points from that could be something that maybe there's fertile ground for this kind ofarrangement.
Yeah, just a little bit of adding up to that isthat, youknow, here in a lotof, in so many Chinese communitiesthat's, youknow, in all different provinces andareas, we seethat, youknow, people above their 60s who are alreadyretired, theyactually, they have their own organization or their own little community-based groups todo,like, communityservices, like self-oriented and self-empowered community servicesthat's, youknow, kind of in line with this whole time banking systemalready.
So maybe the application in the city ofNanjing, as we're discussing rightnow, is just another way for them to practice such alreadyexisting,like, a service providing model forthem.
Like, they already have this group of people serving elders in thecommunity, so why don't theyjust, in themeantime, save some time credits for themselves in thefuture?
Well, that does sound to be pretty useful to just sort of transfer from one to theother.
And the really genius bit about the time bank is that you'regiving, but you're also supposedly getting something in return in the near or farfuture.
Actually in thiscase, I was thinking if time is used as the currency forexchange, there are going to be some very practical issues that need to beconsidered.
Although advocates claim that everyone's time isequal, and I cannot help butthink, youknow, that while the amount of time each person can provide might be thesame, but the quality mayvary, which relates to what we callefficiency.
Maybe you fixthis, let'ssay, leakypipelines, and you are going to spend like two hours fixing this leakypipeline, but the other person may only need one hour to fixthis.
Is that the same amount of labor work or time that you spend or can you actually say that it is a fairexchange?
So I think more completed regulation and system and mechanism is needed in the way of providing a platform for people to actually do the quote unquoteexchange.
Yes, you raise an interesting question by the sound ofit.
This is probably conducive if the elderly folk is looking for generalcare, the so-called emotionalsupport.
Youknow, somebody comes into your apartment and chats with you and maybe makes you a simple sandwich orjust, youknow, some really basiccooking.
That kind ofthing, I think most people can get involvedwith, but with what you justmentioned, you shouldn't withfixing,okay, the job of a plumber deserves to be the job of aplumber.
Hoyang cannot dothat. So I don't think I'm fit to sort of provide those kind ofservices.
I think it's also interesting sort of just to see how this can be streamlined and become clearer topeople.
Like how exactly are these steps to betaken?
And what kind of service are we talking abouthere?
And what'smore, how are these points going to be accumulated andarchived?
Because if fingers crossed you're getting your points redeemed in 20 years time or 30 yearstime, then you need all that digital documentation orwhatnot.
And is that platform going to be able to survive the test oftime?
Hopefully itdoes. But these things all need to be ironed out for a system to sort of be fully accepted bypeople.
Yeah. And also like we talked about how people can be placing an order and have it practiced in a different location other than the one that they'restaying.
So that's kind of like a trend here in China as well that a lot of people may tend to work in one city but retire inanother.
So in thatcase, the different places that say both places have such a time bankingsystem, are they going to be in line with eachother?
Or is there kind of the same servicesprovided?
Or how is the time credits going to be shifted from one place to to theother?
Is it actually going to transfer time into a currency that's universal in differentplaces?
That's also something that we need to kind of consider before investing too much intoit, Ithink.
And also like Yuzhuan and Hoi Yang has mentionedearlier, I deeply agree that there's still in lack of clear policyguidance.
Like how are we going to supervise this whole thing from going astray or how about people just get into this as a volunteer but start to think about making profits or making it into a business as there are so many already existing business lines like this outthere.
Soyeah, these are all uncertainties that awaits unveiling thefuture.
Interesting. And it'll be best if we can sort of end on a high note when it's sucha, youknow, it's a good intentionand, youknow, pretty smart construct of a time bank to startwith.
And I found somefigures.
Okay, so this is according to a 2009 US survey on time bankmembers.
And apparently90% of American respondents said that they had gained new friendships through the timebank.
And70% of the respondents said that they had contact with their new friends at least once aweek.
And two-thirds of them said that their access to health services and other resources hadimproved.
And most respondents reported that time bank membership gave them the support that they needed to stay in their homes as theyaged.
Well, it's interesting that it's been experimented inBeijing, inNanjing, inShanghai, inChina, as well as different countries around theworld.
And I'm curious to hear how you think aboutthis.
And there's a place to contactus.
