This is the defining problem of my life.
I just have this pressure in my life and like, how can I adjust and how can I resolve this for myself?
So you ever feel like you're just losing the battle against the clock, like time is passing you by?
New York Times bestselling author, globetrotter and master of unconventional living, and an old friend of mine, Chris Guillebeau, has dedicated his career to dismantling outdated myths and giving us new tools for better living.
In his new book, Time Anxiety, he reveals breakthrough strategies to reclaim your time and live with purpose.
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I feel like every couple of years you latch on to a topic.
Oftentimes this is a topic which is deeply present in your own life something that you struggle with something that you've seen so many other people struggle with and you dive deep into it.
You generally have like a really contrarian view on a lot of these things too and then ask the big question, how can I help like How can we actually approach this differently?
The focus that you've been really digging into over the last chunk of years and the focus of your new book Time Anxiety is what you term time anxiety.
Take me into this. What are we actually talking about when we're talking about time anxiety?
I think we're talking about a couple of things.
One is the fear of running out of time.
So kind of the existential, there's not enough time in my life for the things that I want to do or there's something I should be doing right now, but I'm not sure quite what it is or maybe I have some regret over something that I did or shouldn't have done or should have done, you know, years ago and now I feel like it's too late.
And so I have this ever present anxiety I don't quite know what to do about it and the other part is what do I do right now?
Like what do I do next?
You know, of all the things that I could be doing, how do I actually not just structure my day but just make some decisions and I feel overwhelmed.
And it's not so much a productivity problem.
That's how a lot of people try to approach or solve it.
And then if you go down that road, you end up getting really good at doing the wrong things, perhaps.
I've done that certainly in my life.
But it's much more of how do we make choices?
How do we know what actually matters?
How does what we do now connect to something that ultimately matters to us?
So, you've got the existential kind, you've got the day -to -day kind.
I feel like is just very, very common. When I first came up with the phrase and started just playing with it a little bit and just talking with people, I noticed that it wasn't just me.
Almost everybody that I talk to, probably more than any other book that I've worked on in 15 years, just about everybody I talked to was like, I have that.
Maybe I have more of the first kind or more of the second kind, but one way or another, I have that.
They started using some phrases that just were very common also and I just talked to so many people and they would all say the same thing about like, this is me all the time or my friends and I talk about this but we never had a name for it.
This is the defining problem of my life, sometimes people would say.
And so that's why I was so interested in it just from the perspective of studying it but I also don't come to it like intellectually.
I come to it just from my own struggle in life and how do I resolve this for myself?
And I do think it's so pervasive, certainly in my life.
I remember it was actually last year having a conversation with Liz Gilbert, who had asked me to write a piece for her, wonderful sub stack, Letters From Love, and where you write a letter from love to yourself.
And the thing that just popped into my mind when I thought about what would I write about is this feeling of, feeling like I've fallen behind in my own life.
Like, I had expectations when I was kid, when I was in my 20s, my 30s, like this is where I would be.
And now I'm in that season of time where I'm measuring, am I there?
And I feel like I've just been perpetually behind and that the window of time that I have to, quote, catch up, it's closing, you know, like there's less road ahead of me than there is behind me at this point in my life.
It's a pretty safe bet.
So is that sort of an experience that commonly would be folded under time anxiety?
It is, and the interesting thing is it doesn't necessarily connect to a certain age.
So that's what's interesting about it.
There are 17 year olds who might say almost the same thing.
They wouldn't say the part about the number of years ahead of me versus behind me and such but they would also say, I feel like I have missed something or I feel like it is too late for something and so they have that sense of I just have this pressure in my life and how can I adjust and how can I move forward. And so for those of us who are not 17, and who are on the other side of it, it's easy to say, oh, that's silly because the world is their oyster.
They can do so much and such, but it's a very real feeling to have this sense of, what do I do?
And what have I achieved or accomplished?
And how does that measure up to what I hoped for?
And if I'm to make some sort of adjustment, what is that?
So I think it's actually common among people of all ages.
Is there a world in which time anxiety is good?
And here's why I'm asking.
There are a lot of folks who are experts in just generalized anxiety, and what they'll often tell you is that anxiety is a natural phenomenon and that there's value in anxiety, there's a fuel in anxiety.
There's a motivating or activating energy and anxiety.
But then there's a tipping point.
Where it becomes dysfunctional, it actually stops you from being who you want to be and living the life you want to live.
Is there a corollary here with time anxiety?
You know, a few years ago, I wrote this other book called, The Happiness of Pursuit, which was about like my quest to go to every country and then other people who'd pursued all these different kinds of quests and such. And I kind of, I wanted to look at the commonalities, you know, between them, like all these different people, what do they have in common besides the fact that they pursued this quest?
And one of those things was they tended to have what I called an emotional awareness of mortality, which is not just, oh, I understand that everyone dies.
Like that's an intellectual awareness.
But the emotional awareness is like someday I will die.
And that sense seemed to kind of urge them along, right?
And nudge them towards action and get them thinking about what is this thing I want to do.
And so I do think that there is a corollary to that in the sense of okay, why do we ultimately feel anxious about anything while, you know, the one sentence distillation of it is because we are going to die, right?
Do we ultimately feel like time is running out?
We worry that time is running out because time is running out.
That's the bad news, right?
The good news is I think it's actually very healthy to live with that emotional awareness of mortality, and it's kind of fun.
It can actually give you a built -in excuse for anything you don't want to do.
Once you just try to remind yourself like, oh, yeah, okay, I do have a limited amount of time.
Well, that can feel very scary and overwhelming, or it can be like, okay, I have a limited amount of time, so what are the things I'm doing right now that are actually not a good use of that time or are not bringing satisfaction to my life or value to anyone else?
How can I put things in buckets accordingly and even, as I say, use it as an excuse for something that you don't want to do?
I had this whole section in the book that my editor and I went back and forth on, because she was like, oh, this sounds a little bit rude.
And I was like, I know, I know.
But listen, just hear me out.
Because I was like, once you have the built -in excuse, if somebody asks you to do something that you don't want to do, you can just say like, no, thank you, I'm going to die.
I don't want to go to this party or this meeting because I'm going to die, then they might be like, Oh my God, are you okay?
And I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to die tomorrow.
I mean, but I don't know, right?
I'm not sure. So whether you use language like that or not, I think the point is it can urge you towards action and urge you towards maybe a realignment and thinking like, okay, what does matter?
If very few things matter, ultimately in the end, what is on that short list and how can I spend more time doing those things?
And less time doing other things, but also just less time worrying about the other things because it's not always the doing of the things that causes the most anxiety.
It's the thinking about them.
I stress out a lot about my email and other communication, and I don't actually spend a lot of time on it.
I spend more time feeling regretful or feeling mad at myself for not responding to things than I actually do responding to things.
So I think learning to let go is helpful.
If somebody is experienced, somebody's listening to this like I think I'm feeling this, but I'm not entirely sure, what are some of the things that people have said to you, like the scripts that they have in their head or the things that they're saying to themselves when they're experiencing this?
So somebody might be able to say, oh yeah, that's actually me.
I'm going through this right now.
It's often a lot of physical symptoms. So it's not just a feeling it's like, I actually feel like this tightness in my chest. I feel like discomfort in my stomach. Maybe I have headaches, maybe I'm dizzy.
And then, you know, just some symptoms or characteristics of feeling depressed or anxious in general, I just, I have panic attacks or I have symptoms of panic attacks.
Maybe it's not a full -blown panic attack, but I just feel very disconcerted.
And I'm constantly trying to reset myself or regulate my nervous system and I can fix it sometimes for a period or for a time but then it's always kind of looming.
Like it's this thing that's just always there.
And so maybe I'm distracting myself.
Maybe I do find some purpose for a while but then I kind of go back to this point of like, am I using my time well?
Am I doing this thing that I feel like I should be doing but I don't quite know what it is?
One of the things I've said, I've caught myself saying a number of times things like, I wish I had another day in the week, or another hour in the day, or another month in the year, or I wish there were two of me, which probably the world doesn't wish.
Sometimes I do. Mad Fientist Well, this is interesting.
I have this whole exercise about the eighth day of the week.
Imagine that you had an eighth day of the week, which is a little bit different than your ideal day.
A lot of people are familiar with this exercise of like, what's your ideal day.
But your ideal day is like something that comes along like once in forever.
But if you had an extra day every week, like what you do on that day might be different than your single idealistic day.
So it can be helpful to actually ask yourself, if I actually had this extra day.
And what people tend to revert to is always catching up, like I would use that day to catch up on things.
And so I think part of the exercise is to take away and say, okay, like assume that on this eighth day, can't use it to catch up on your email.
And obviously on many of the other days, there are probably things who need people, who need things from you.
You might have childcare, other responsibilities to other people.
So let's just assume that on this eighth day, you're not obligated to anyone else.
This is really your day.
How would you spend that day?
Right. And that can be helpful in just kind of figuring out What are those things that I actually want to do, and what does purposeful time look like for me?
Yeah, I love that exercise.
You mentioned earlier that there are a whole lot of things that people try and do to quote, fix this problem that tend to not be super effective.
And I guess some of them probably even deepen the problem.
What are some of the things that you see people turn to and then end up giving up on because they're either not working or actually making it worse?
Well the first thing I thought of when you said how you wish you could clone yourself or have the extra day.
I think there's always this advice about just get up earlier.
Just get up one hour earlier.
I think that's problematic because it works for one day, right?
But you can't tell what if you're already getting up early, first of all?
You know, what if you already are not getting enough sleep?
Sleep deprivation is not a great long -term strategy for pretty much anything.
And so it's not just that, I feel like there's a whole There's a whole wave of these kinds of like tips and hacks and such and even a good productivity system because I was like super into productivity for so long and like, you know, read all the books and like I was always trying different apps and lists and things.
And I think those tools have a place, you know but also as I said, if you're not careful you get really good at doing the wrong things.
And ultimately all these tools and systems they just create the potential for more and is more really what you need in your life.
And also there's going to be more after that.
It's not like you're going to reach a point where you're like, okay, now I am more productive.
Now everything is all buttoned up.
No, you'll just continue to make more and more.
So I think the whole productivity industrial complex is something that I very much embraced for a long time and then kind of just have become more and more skeptical because I think productivity without purpose is ultimately meaningless.
I so agree with you and I think that we think that if we dial in the system and then We get all the things checked on our list Then all we have all this extra time in our day and we finally we can do the things you want to do and we can breathe and be spacious and meditate and hang out with our friends and It's been my experience and like I'm raising my hand because I do this all the time I just fill that space with more stuff to do And not stuff that I'm like excited to do or want to do or just like that gives me.
Peace I'm just like, okay, so now I've opened up two hours.
How can I use that time productively now too?
And there's a never -ending torrent of stuff that will flood into whatever time I open up with whatever system I'm using that, at the end of the day, doesn't make my experience of life better.
Darrell Bock Something I've tried to do is replace productivity with value or just thinking of the word valuable, as opposed to productive, and just asking myself not how can I use my time most productively but how can I use my time in a valuable way?
One little trick I have is from time to time, maybe once or twice a day, I'll look back on the last 40 minutes and be like, what did I do the last 40 minutes?
How valuable were my last 40 minutes?
And so the valuable is the key words.
It's not just how productive.
Value can be found in a conversation with a friend.
Value could be found in rest. Value could be found in going for a walk, anything that you choose to be valuable.
But I think there's also times where you could look back on your last 40 minutes and say, actually, it probably wasn't that valuable.
I'm not really even sure what I did.
Maybe I was here at my desk.
And presumably I spent that time somehow, but I couldn't really tell you what it was.
And so that's just a little moment to be like, okay, well what can I do for the next 40 minutes to find value?
So not so much filling the space, always with productivity, although that's okay too, but as you said, maybe just not making it the default all the time.
Yeah, I mean, you use that word value too.
And that's something that I've been coming back to increasingly in my own life, just more broadly.
I think anyone who's ever had any kind of corporate job at some point had some sort of like workshop or training or something like that where they did a values exercise where it's like pick out the five words or like your strongest values.
And then we pick out the five words and we never look at them again.
And we never really understand what those words were about in the first place.
We're just like, oh, family.
But what does that actually mean to me?
Creativity was actually...
But it sounds like what you're describing here, though, is that understanding what we value, like what we hold dear, what we hold important, actually is incredibly important when we're making these decisions.
So, I think it's very important to know what that looks like for you.
And the answer could be different for lots of people.
I mean, I think you've done a lot of work on this question and come at it from different approaches and such. I think in general, a lot of people don't really spend a great deal of time thinking about what they want.
What they want to get out of life, what they do value, not just the buzzwords or the five values from the list, but ultimately what is important to them, given the fact that life is short, time is limited, every yes means we're saying no to lots of things.
And again, it's an interesting thing because it can feel pressuring and it's not.
I think there's a way to make it not feel pressuring.
I think that's really key.
When I wrote this book I was like, I have to find a way to write this book in a way that doesn't actually make people anxious.
It's like, I need to get through it so I can just find the facts and information then go do the thing.
It's like. . . Exactly.
I'm even thinking like I'm doing a book tour.
I'm like preparing for the.
. . you know, I'm like writing, I'm like, how do I write the talk in a way that is actually going to provide some relief?
You know, that's the whole goal.
The whole goal is to provide some relief.
Not just make people feel stressed out, because they're already stressed out.
So, okay. But I do think there's a way to come at these questions in a way that, that provides relief.
Yeah. No, a hundred percent.
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Let's dip into some of the ideas, the big ideas that you tee up around time anxiety and also strategies.
sort of like, how do we actually, okay, so we've kind of spent some time on the problem and how it shows up in different people's lives, in my life, and some of the things that come up, but let's talk about what do we do about this.
One of the things, the concepts that you float fairly early on in the book and the conversation is this notion of cognitive distortions.
Take me into this. Yeah, first things first. For someone who is feeling overwhelmed, who has the sense of, I've got this, this restlessness, this time anxiety." The first thing I think we need to do is give yourself time, however you can.
Give yourself the gift of time.
I like to think of it like this.
Like wherever you can just kind of make some even short -term decisions to kind of triage and notice what it feels like to actually give yourself time.
So if there are things on your calendar, like, can you look at your calendar for the next couple of weeks?
You know, can you take one or two items off and notice before you fill that space something else just kind of pay attention to how it feels to do that.
Can you learn to maybe not do everything with excellence?
And this is hard for some people if you've got straight A's all the time.
But I think it's actually important to do some things poorly if your laundry is not perfect, if the dishes are not perfect.
Okay. Life goes on, right?
I think I've mastered those things by the way, I mean, I've mastered not doing them in a masterful way.
So - You've got it. And then we can kind of dive into like, okay, what are the cognitive distortions like these, this kind of thought processes or neurological patterns that we get into where it's like, I am not gonna be okay.
I'm not gonna be able to fix this problem.
I experienced like a small amount of rejection or like some minor rejection, and now this kind of takes over my life.
I'm personalizing it, I'm catastrophizing it.
I'm like, this is the worst thing ever.
I can't go into the woods because there are bears in the woods.
It can prevent all kinds of decisions.
And so when it comes to time anxiety, it's like, I will never solve this problem.
I am condemned to go through this all the time.
And so maybe just thinking through where does this come from?
And might there be a different story that we could tell ourselves?
Maybe your story is like, yeah, you've had some struggles.
This is the human condition.
But are there not times in which you have won as well?
Are there not times in which you have been able to figure things out?
I'm just kind of beginning to tell yourself a little bit of a different story.
Like I've always had this very like negative internal monologue.
It's very self -critical.
And I guess for a while, I thought like, I wasn't sure if it was like, everybody else has this or nobody else has this, you know?
I don't know what you think about this, but I always had this like, I was always being very critical of myself and I learned something to do about that was I can't always silence it.
Like, it's just there, it's been there for a long time, but what I can do is kind of add to it and just add this counterpoint of, okay, well, you have figured things out.
Maybe you can figure this thing out too.
This thing did not go well, but that's okay because here's a few other things that have gone well and you've been here before.
Yeah, it sounds not too dissimilar to Byron Cady's of the work, you know, like just a few simple questions, one of them being, is it true?
And like, what is the evidence that it's true?
and is there a different story that we can tell about these exact same facts that we're spinning about?
Here's my curiosity around this.
I think we all deal with cognitive distortions.
We kind of like, there's some objective circumstance out there, and then there's the weirdness, the story that we spin about it.
We distort it into, like you said, oftentimes, these self -flagellating stories about the thing, about our ability to do the thing, about like whatever it may be.
And then the more we repeat it, the more it becomes like our reality.
We think, oh, this is actually, this is the circumstance itself.
I love the sort of the interventions that you just offered up, like kind of like pulling back and saying, is there a different story we can tell about this?
Here's my curiosity around this.
And it's always been my curiosity around cognitive distortions, however you want to phrase them.
It's about the moment before that.
Because before we can actually do this, before we can do the intervention, we need to actually be able to notice that we're in this cycle, that we're telling this story, that is distorting reality.
How do you do that?
Like how do you catch yourself?
So that you can actually realize, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now let me actually do this thing.
I don't know a way to catch myself beforehand.
It's more like when it's happening.
The thing about when it happens is it doesn't just happen once.
Like it doesn't just come and go.
Like it is a loop, right?
So I think the more you do it, or the more you begin to add to the story or otherwise counter the distortion in some way, perhaps the sooner you begin to notice it.
So you wallow in it less, or you fixate less, or you obsess less.
I mean, this is something I used to just do this for weeks, like over a single issue.
Whereas now it's like, at least when I do it, I can recognize a little bit of what's happening.
I found that for me, the real difference maker there has been, and this is something that people generally don't like to hear, because it's not a momentary thing.
It's been a mindfulness practice, which for me is 15 years in the making.
It builds slowly over months and then years where you just kind of gain this capacity to what they call meta -awareness, kind of zoom out for a moment and be like, oh, where's my mind right now?
And that has been life -changing, Because it lets me notice when I'm spinning and then start to question it the way that you're saying.
People don't love that answer because - It takes works.
It takes work. It takes time, which adds some time and anxiety cause now you don't have to do something else you want to do.
I do want to bounce back to what you said to tee this topic of cognitive distortions up, because you certainly gave us a preamble, which is actually one of the opening points and strategies in the book, which is this notion of giving yourself more time.
In the conversations that you've had or in your own experience, have you come up with people feeling a sense of shame when they think about actually carving out more of that time for themselves?
Because I sometimes question it myself.
I'm like, I've got so much other stuff to do, important stuff, stuff that I say that I really care about and like my schedule is massively overburdened.
I can't be doing this and if I do it, I'm like, ah, I'm not doing a good thing here.
You know, our mutual friend Gretchen Rubin, I feel like she has a great answer to this and to your question about shame.
I think definitely, I think people feel shame about all the things that they haven't done or that they feel like they haven't done, you know, to certain degree of completion or quality.
And I think that can be an overriding force or factor, you know, in our lives.
And I was on this conversation with Gretchen some other people once, and someone asks some question about this," and I think I gave an answer that was like, okay.
And then she gave a much better answer, which is something to the effect of, when you carve out time for yourself, ultimately, you are going to be a better person.
This is going to be good for you, and this will also enable you to care for others more effectively.
So if it's someone asking this question who's a caretaker or someone who's like, but I really don't have time.
Well, you know, I don't want to suggest that it's easy or that anyone can do this to the same degree.
But it is ultimately important to care for yourself.
If you care for yourself, then you're going to be able to not only be better off for yourself, but also be a better caretaker or just a better person for other people or for all those responsibilities that you have. Yeah, it's almost like this shame story itself is a cognitive distortion that you start to spin.
And it's like debriefing that and saying, what's the other story about this too?
You have to think about just play out the tape a little bit with the shame.
Because like, okay, if you feel so much shame, you feel so overburdened with these things that you have to keep doing the things.
And then it's going to cause some, either it's going to cause some negative effect in your health, or you're going to just be frustrated with your, you might just give up at a certain I've known people who just kind of completely walk away from all their responsibilities and that's, I mean, if you have to do that, you have to do that, but wouldn't it be better to find a way to address the problem before it got to that point?
Yeah, so agree. I find myself, if I ever drop into the place where it's like, I'm doing something because I feel like if I stop doing it, I'm getting to feel a sense of shame.
I'm like, oh, this is actually a moment I need to question.
Like, I don't understand truly what's going on here, but there's something that's actually not functional for me, so I need to really like dig into this and figure out what's going on.
And sometimes, you have to dig pretty deep to really figure it out.
For sure. You bring up this concept of time blindness, this notion that we're horrible at really understanding how we use our time and how fast or slow time moves.
Take me a little bit deeper into this and how it affects us also.
And also maybe how can we get better at it?
Yeah, so there's some really simple things that we can do.
Time blindness is a condition that's initially associated with ADHD.
which I'm ADHD diagnosed, and the more that I've learned about that, the more helpful it's been in my own life, but it's not exclusive to those who are ADHD or identify as neurodivergent or any other mental health condition.
It's this thing where we have a poor perception of time.
And like I said, I think almost everyone has a poor perception of time.
Some have it worse than others, but one of the reasons is we have this tendency of trying to add something.
Like we want to just do one more thing.
And so we chronically underestimate how much time it takes for transitions, in particular, like to go from one thing to another, or if I have to go run an errand or go to a meeting in person or something.
I think it's going to take 10 minutes, but it's really going to take 25 minutes if I factor in like the traffic and the door -to -door thing and all of that.
And so this inevitably ends up causing a lot of stress because you're always running behind, right?
And you're constantly running behind and your friends are kind of used it at this point.
You're like, oh, so -and -so is always late, but it doesn't feel good.
It doesn't feel good to you, because you're letting people down.
You're letting yourself down.
A really simple thing – and this is going to sound so dumb, but a really simple thing is just to allow yourself more time.
Give yourself 10 to 15 minutes more than you think you need for every transition.
It will make your life so much better if you're not doing this already.
Because as I said, you're often 5 or 10 or 15 minutes late for things or things are scheduled too tightly and now you have this little window.
And people sometimes worry about that, but what am I gonna do with that five extra minutes?
As if they have to fill it with something, and this is a good problem to have. You wanted more time.
Okay, now you have given yourself more time.
So I don't know, bring a book or something, but just allowing yourself, 15 to 20 more minutes than you think you need will make a really big difference.
Another thing I like to do is make time visible.
I'm a big fan of clocks.
And I have multiple clocks around my space.
And if you think about it, casinos have no clocks because they don't want people to think about time.
They want people to forget entirely about time.
So maybe there's a place in your home like your bedroom or somewhere else where you want to be free of time.
If you don't keep your phone in your bedroom, I respect that.
But I would say for pretty much everywhere else, the more you can make time visible, it's actually helpful.
It doesn't mean you're gonna be watching the clock.
It just means you're aware.
If this needs to happen then, I'm aware generally of what time it is.
So it's a thing that time blindness concept can be this overwhelming negative force in our lives, and it's pretty easy to fix it or at least counteract it to a certain degree.
As you're describing that, I'm realizing I'm one of those annoying people who uses time blocking in my calendar.
It's like all of my DD's are actually blocked out as time blocks in my calendar.
And that's funny because my team can see my calendar.
and I think, I'm like, I've been doing these things, I've been podcasting for 13 years, like I should know how much time it takes to prep and then for the actual conversation itself and then any posts I need to do and stuff like this, so it's blocked into my calendar.
And there are a whole bunch of other things I've been doing for years that are blocked into my calendar.
Here's the thing and here's the amount of time that I estimate to do it.
And then if you look at my calendar on any given week, like on a Monday morning, when you look at all the things that have time blocked out, But if you look back at that week on Friday afternoon, I've moved everything around because I was just horribly off on everything that I was doing, you know?
And this includes leaving blocks in my calendar.
My calendar has a little thing where there's a block, which is called my KF block, which is just keep free.
So I'm trying to build time in just to accommodate the fact that I'm so terrible at estimating the things that are actually in there.
But to my frustration, I've never gotten better at it.
I wonder if, so I think it could be two things for someone in that situation.
If they find themselves like not wanting to do the things that are blocked out or those keep getting pushed out, it's almost like, are those the right things, the right categories that should be planned in the first place?
And if it's more like, no, I'm still doing those things, but I'm not doing it according to the time schedule, then it's maybe like a logistical issue of like, is this the right time to schedule this particular thing or does it take more time or does this other thing take more time or less time than I imagined?
But yeah, I think improving in this way helps a good bit.
Laura Vanderkam, I'm sure you know her as well.
She writes on time a lot and I have a little bit different take than her for some things, but I also learn a lot from her as well.
And she has, I think she calls it her Friday list, which is like all these like small things that kind of come up during the week.
and rather than just trying to fit them in through the day, she saves them for a Friday, and she has either the morning or afternoon blocked off to let me just do all these little things, and then she ends up feeling better going into the weekend.
Now that makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm thinking also of things that you're working on where there are deadlines attached to them that aren't just your own personal deadlines, where there are dependencies that are based on you actually delivering a certain outcome on a certain time and date and, you know, we're both authors.
We have, in theory, we have deadlines to deliver on that new piece.
They're flexible deadlines, but yes.
Yeah, yeah. It's publishing and she's a little bit weird with that.
But for so many people in work, it's like they're working on a team, they're working, they have a boss, their leader, a manager, and they've got to do all these different things.
I like the idea of, okay, if you really want to feel like you're able to deliver on the promise of not just your own expectations but other people's expectations, which are important, especially in the context of work where like you're making promises, you know, basically taking everything that you think.
And even if you think you're really good estimating, like, what if I pad this 15 to 20 % and then just make the process so much more breathable for me.
And then maybe also some deadlines are real.
As you said, but I think we tend to kind of operate or a lot of people operate on only one speed, which is like, everything is urgent, everything must be done now.
And so I think it's helpful as well to question like what really is urgent, you know?
And a lot of things that seem to be urgent, maybe could actually be done at any time, right?
A time that's more convenient to you.
And so if you get more specific on what are the real deadlines, I think that's helpful.
And then also another thing that has been helpful for me because I just keep adding stuff, you know, it's like if I have things to do for like half the day, it's not like I'm gonna finish half the day and then just not do anything, right?
I keep adding. And so for, even for people who are not self -employed, if you're doing any kind of knowledge work in a company, like the list is endless.
Like there's always something to be done.
So it's really helpful to decide for yourself what is enough.
Like, what is enough for today?
What is enough for this project, for this week, for this thing?
And decide that at the outset, like what does done look like is a really helpful question.
And then once you reach done, you can just kind of take a moment to like recognize and celebrate that and maybe take a break and do something else.
If you so choose to go onto the next thing, that's great.
But if you have decided, this is what done looks like for me today and I was really effective at doing it.
If you have the ability to step away, then why not do that?
I guess the struggle with that for a lot of people and I'm raising my hand here again is that there is no such thing as done.
What you're inviting people to do is say, okay, so let's acknowledge the fact that for a lot of us, that's true.
Then it's up to us to be the arbiters of intermediate done or done?
I just said dumb. That was a Freudian slip.
Well, there's no external done.
I think that's the thing.
So therefore though, the task at hand is to create, is to decide, because the external done doesn't exist. Therefore I must step in and impose some structure on this, which is really imposing structure on myself so that I don't just continue to spin the wheels.
And then maybe I work all day and I actually ended up feeling really tired And I got a whole lot done in the beginning, but because I just kept going and didn't necessarily use the time well in the second half of the day, just for example, I ended up feeling not proud.
I ended up feeling bad when I could be celebrating.
Yeah. It's interesting also, because I think we've kind of been teaming this up a little bit more in the context of work.
But this is personal also.
This is life. If you're a parent or a caregiver or a companion, and you feel like you have somebody else's wellbeing, their happiness, their health in your hands, and not knowledge work, necessarily, but this is another one of those things where like, there's never gonna be a done, like, there's always, you know, you are on all the time.
And we feel like, I think there's another place where we feel like, okay, like I can't just clock out.
Like I can't actually decide that, you know, it's X o 'clock today, and that's got to be enough.
And that creates a tension.
Yeah, sure. I mean, I still encourage people just to ask, you still ask the question, what does done look like, or what is enough in the situation?
Maybe your answer is quite maximalist. Even for parents with kids doing sports or school activities and things, it's like, yes, it's important to show up, of course.
Do you always a hundred percent need to show up for every one of them?
That's a question each parent can answer and maybe the answer is yes.
But I think some parents could say, no, I want to go to most of them, or these are the important ones that I need to be at.
But, also, it's okay for my kid to develop on their own, perhaps.
And maybe I can pull back and maybe I'm going to 100 % of the things just because I feel like I need to be doing that.
And everything would be fine.
There would still be great harmony in the household and in our relationships if I went to 80 % or whatever the percentage is.
Yeah, now that makes so much sense to me.
And I feel like we often confuse, as well, time being physically present with time being emotionally present.
and were like, I have to be.
My body has to be in all these different places to make sure that I'm checking the boxes.
But if that's just emptying you more and more and more.
It's not like those around us who are depending on us don't pick up on that.
And that's like, I don't really care if this person is here because honestly, they're just kind of tuned out.
It's better off if you just go do your own thing.
And we kind of pretend that they can't feel those things.
But the reality is they do.
I often wonder if that does more harm than good at the end of the day.
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You introduced this concept of time rules.
Take me into this. Yeah, I think a lot of us have unspoken or undocumented rules for ourselves of how we spend our time.
And sometimes these are rooted in responsiveness or availability.
If we want to be a good employee or employer, then it's really important for us to return emails, or other communication within a certain amount of time.
And that's an example of a time rule.
I always do this. I always do this.
This is like I have my communication cleared by the end of the day and so on.
So time rules can be helpful, or they can actually end up holding you back.
And so I would encourage people to kind of examine like, what are the time rules that you currently live by?
What might be some better time rules for yourself?
How can you set some boundaries?
Because again, if you don't do this, no one will.
I think maybe a common theme of some of the last couple of things we've been touching on is no one's going to come along and help you have a better nighttime routine.
No one's going to come along and help you achieve whatever balance or alignment you need to have between the things you work on for other people, the things you work on for yourself, your responsibilities at home, and in relationships, your hobbies.
You have to do this or no one's going to do it for you.
So when it comes to time rules, just asking yourself, what might be helpful in that way?
What are some rules I could make for myself?
Are there one or two rules that you see being fairly common, fairly pervasive that actually exacerbate time anxiety that maybe we should revisit?
I think it has something to do with that sense of urgency of operating only at one speed.
I'm not sure how it kind of codifies in the sense of a rule, but the demand of responsiveness, the external and internal demand of responsiveness is something to it.
And there's probably some more.
That's the first thing I think of.
Yeah, I think a lot of people feel pressure to respond to whatever messages are coming in within a certain amount of time.
And the context is probably different.
If it's a friend, maybe you have a couple of hours.
If it's a boss, maybe you have a couple of minutes.
I feel like almost once you set that, it becomes an expectation.
You're like, okay, so this is what I've done since the very beginning, I'm a couple months in now, so now it's become a norm.
And if I break that, am I now sending a message to the other person that I'm in some way devaluing them?
But I imagine so much of that exists just in our heads also, and nobody else is really paying attention.
I mean, something I've learned from you is you often, I don't know if it's perpetual, but you often have an autoresponder on your email that's just like, hey, I'm kind of in maker mode as you call it, which is a great phrase, and I might not be able to get back to you.
I mean, I understand not everybody can do the same thing, but I think it's probably relieving to have that, right?
Because then the other person is like, oh, he might be able to get back to me, or he might not be able to because of this.
So you have written a time rule there that I imagine has been helpful to you.
And imagine that there was a reason why you did that in the first place, right?
Because you were feeling kind of stressed.
100%. And that's been a persistent vacation message on my email.
I don't even remember when I said it.
It's probably close to a decade at this point.
That's great. Yeah.
And you're right. It says, Hey, I'm working on some deep project now in maker mode.
Thank you so much. And then I give a bullet list of like eight different contexts.
If you're reaching out about this, here's the person to talk to.
If you're reaching about this, here's the person to talk to.
So I don't want to leave people hanging.
Right. But I also want to set expectations that like for 90, like a lot of the the reasons that people might reach out to me, it's actually not a me thing.
They just don't know that yet.
And also, even if it is, I'm constantly weighing and going back to that values part of the conversation, you know, like what's important to me here is important for me to respond to this person oftentimes who I don't know, or to go deep into this project.
You know, that I'm working on.
I had an interesting experience around this on my Substack, actually, early on, I was writing something about being a good person or whatever it may be.
And somebody said in the comments, well, if that's true, why haven't you responded to my direct message?
That's great. And you said, I'm going to drop everything right now.
At first I'm like, that was my inclination.
Like, oh, I need to get in there.
But there actually is a reason that I didn't respond to that person.
There's a reason I don't respond to almost anyone's VMs to me on any platform.
And it's the same reason I have the autoresponder set up in my email.
and that sending me decision a long time ago, that just because I am sharing ideas in a particular place, doesn't mean that that's also a doorway back in to conversation with me.
I don't do it for mean reasons.
I do it for self -preservation, because I know what matters to me, and I want to be able to address my attention to that.
Eventually, I actually, I did respond to that person in the comments, not privately, because I wanted other people to see.
So a learning moment for other people.
Exactly. Exactly. And I came off my high horse and I'm like, all right, this is actually, I completely understand.
They're new in my community.
They don't sort of...
And I was like, hey, thank you so much for this comment.
I completely understand your question.
And here's why I have this policy of actually not being interactive in any of my DMs. And they responded like, oh, that's actually incredibly helpful.
Thank you. I totally get it and respect it.
And I think sometimes we're afraid to set those rules because we're afraid of the response.
We don't think that people will understand why we're doing it.
But I think sometimes we should give people the benefit of the doubt.
For sure. I mean, so you've enacted another strategy that I recommend about putting a brick in your mailbox.
Because we all have so many inboxes these days.
I think that's part of the problem.
And we can all get direct messages on every platform and such. And so, you can choose your availability, and you can choose which means and platforms and so on you want to be able to be reached at and which ones you're going to engage with and not.
And then with a lot of the platforms, you can actually just turn that feature off, like with sub -stack.
You were new coming on sub -stack, but maybe now you can go and actually just turn that off so people won't be able to message in the future and prevent any misunderstanding.
It's like clearing stuff off your calendar.
It feels really relieving when you do it.
When you're like, Oh, okay, I'm not going to have 17 different ways of being contacted.
This way I can actually do a better job at the three ways that I'm prioritizing.
And there are different...
This is the rule that works for me.
People may have very different rules.
I mean, another friend of ours, Seth Godin, like I learned years ago, Seth will always respond and I'll always respond fairly quickly, but I never expect more than five words from him no matter how long my email is and that's his rule.
It doesn't matter how long the email is that I get.
I'm going to respond like with the fewest number of words that actually get the response across.
And that's not a disrespect thing.
It's just, this is the way that I function.
And if you want to be in conversation, that's great.
Yeah, sure. You mentioned earlier in our conversation also something I want to dip back into.
And we kind of joked about it a little bit, like in the context of mastery.
But this idea of doing things poorly as a strategy to help with time anxiety, I think is interesting.
I want to know a little bit more about this.
Yeah, I mean, I should give some credit to Casey Davis.
She's a therapist and influencer.
She wrote a book, like How to Keep House while Drowning.
And so I borrowed some of this concept from her about how you have this ingrained idea about excellence because that's what we're often taught just like, you must always do your best. And the reality is for all the things that we do in life, we're not always going to be able to do our best. And so making choices with everything else, sometimes it's okay to do less than your best. and it's okay, the world does not end." We talked about laundry and dishes and things, but she also says, if you're overwhelmed by the pile of laundry, if you have like a large household and it's going to take like eight
loads of laundry, don't try to do eight loads of laundry, do one load of laundry.
Just get one load of laundry going and that's going to help you feel better.
It's going to help you start the process.
Maybe later you'll go and do the rest of them, most likely, but it just kind of gets you into the action but without necessarily having it being done to completion.
For students, not every term paper is going to be perfect.
Sometimes it's okay to just turn in less than your best work.
Overall, you want to be doing your best work, but you're also feeling a lot of pressure about that.
If you're taking your kid to eat at McDonald's, you're not a terrible person.
You probably don't wanna take them to McDonald's every day.
That's not good, but eating something is better than not eating at all.
right? So just this idea of how can we move through the world with a certain amount of ease and acceptance that we're not going to make perfect choices all the time and it doesn't really matter when we get the laundry done, it needs to be done, but there is time for that.
So do things poorly and also don't be afraid to walk away from things that you're not enjoying or not working, right?
Not everything you start needs to be finished, which is another value that's kind of ingrained from a young age for a lot of us is like, you must finish everything, right?
And so, even if you think about things like books or movies or content media that you consume, I start a lot of movies and watch like 15 to 20 minutes, and I just stop.
And people always think this is weird. If I don't like it, there's something else, right?
So, I think it's just really powerful.
And it actually feels really good to like walk away, especially if you go to like a movie theater even, that's even bigger because you're not just like changing the Netflix channel.
You're actually like, oh, I thought I was going to like this movie, but I'm not really feeling it.
I'm going to walk away.
I think that actually feels really, really good.
I love that, the idea of not finishing things also is part of that.
I'm in the same boat.
Like I've really developed the habit of, you know, I read just enough of something or I listened to just enough of something to see if I feel like it's what I want.
And if it is, I keep on, if it's not, I'm just like, I'm good.
I love actually taking it, we've become like just really regular library book because it makes me feel really good.
Like I get to give a whole bunch of things a shot.
Just a little bit of time invested, that's it.
And if it's not working for me, like I recently picked up a book which is legendary and so many people told me this is fantastic, you've got to read it, you'll love this author.
And I got 30 pages in and I'm like I get it.
And I just don't want to keep getting it.
Yeah, it's not for you at this time.
That's fine, you know.
And I also want to say like that the reason why walk away from things, and you do some things poorly, is because there are other things that are so exciting that you do want to immerse yourself in.
I just read this 1 ,300 -page trilogy that I read slowly over the course of six months and I loved it.
I loved it so much. I was like, oh, I might not have found this if I had kept slogging through this other book that I didn't really like, but everybody said was good.
I'm sure it was good, but it just wasn't for me.
So like, I walk away from things so that I can invest, you know, in those experiences that are really amazing.
Yeah. So I agree with that.
Traffic light model.
As we sorta like wrap around to some of the later ideas in time anxiety.
Yeah, so another thing I had to learn about myself over the years is partly because of the ADHD, but I have this tendency to hyper -focus on tasks and projects when I'm really excited about something, then I will like give everything to it.
And then I'll also get kind of burned out, right?
And so I always knew I had the hyperfocus, but I didn't quite understand why over time I would develop this like great resistance towards doing things that I actually liked doing.
Like it was really hard for me to write several of my books because I kind of went a little bit too hard in the beginning.
So understanding that hyperfocus really needs to be balanced with appropriate periods of rest kind of made all the difference for me.
So it's not so much about trying to like even out, I think it's actually really fun to go all in for stuff that you're excited about.
But you need this kind of traffic light model.
So it's like, you think about your own fatigue and your ability to work.
Most of us can only work about 2 to 3, maybe 4 hours a day of actively focused cognitive work.
We can do other stuff, but that's different.
So once you understand, oh, I've only got like 2 to 3 hours a day of this focused energy.
How do I best direct it?
And so the traffic light is like, okay, I've got a green light.
I'm feeling good. I am focused, that's good, and then the red light is I really need to take a break, like a long break.
And the yellow light's a little bit kind of tricky, right?
Because you're like, ah, what do I do?
And I think the best thing during that time is you can do some other kinds of work, maybe you can do some creative work, but that's not as cognitively focused.
And so just understanding, and it takes some practice, but noticing your own circadian and ultradian rhythms and when you can do the best kind of work, it's made a big difference in my life.
So hyperfocus combined with rest. Yeah, I love that.
And it's a lesson that I've had to learn the really hard way also.
And as you said, it helps you in part with an ADHD diagnosis or any form of neurodivergence.
But also, this is almost everybody experiences some version of this.
This is the way the brain functions.
It's interesting. Years ago when I was working on a book, the first book I wrote, I just completely burned myself out.
I was doing exactly what you're talking about.
would work like 12 -hour days, you know, like 11 o 'clock at night.
I'm on the couch. My eyes are barely open.
I tell myself, I'm actually writing, but I stopped writing like six hours ago.
You know, it was just, I was channeling Drek.
I wasn't actually writing, but I wanted to say, like, I'm doing the thing.
I'm devoted. I'm committed to this thing.
After writing that, before I started into my next book, I somehow stumbled upon this Paris review article of, um, interview of Ernest Hemingway.
And he shared this and it completely changed the way I focus on writing it ended up becoming one of my time rules in the context of writing using surely your structure, which is that he said, Stop writing at the end of each day, not when you're done writing.
But like when you actually know what the next sentence is, and you're excited to write it.
And it was great, because I wouldn't, I wouldn't push to the point where I like it just forced myself to keep going until I was done, and then I was exhausted.
And also by ending kind of in the middle where I knew it was coming, it made me really excited to wake up the next day and I knew that there was no resistance.
I would just hit the ground running.
I couldn't wait to go and write the next sentence because I was already in it when my eyes opened and it just completely changed the nature of the experience.
So it's kind of like combines these two different ideas of traffic light model and creating these roles that are really effective for you.
Yeah. You didn't leave yourself with a problem and so much writing is like problems to be solved and such, and you left yourself with like, here's the next path.
And you'll encounter problems later on, but to get on that on -ramp early, I think it's very effective.
I think if people understand not all hours are created equal, I think that also makes a big difference, right?
There are some hours in which you can probably be two to three times as effective as other hours, and so, if you can figure out what those are for you, and try to be intentional about how you spend your time in those hours, then that's much better than just like I'm gonna work for 12 hours a day or whatever.
Yeah, and you brought that up just a little bit earlier on in the conversation, this notion of circadian and ultradian rhythms. And there are sort of like general assumptions in general sciences, most people do this type of thing best at this type of day, but I would imagine you would agree when I say results may vary.
You've just got to run the experiments yourself because I know I actually don't fit in to those.
as I call these things.
Yeah, I would imagine you would be an exception actually.
I don't know this actually about you about what your ideal hours are, but I would bet that you are kind of different than the norm.
Yeah, weirdly when you're supposed to be like struggle the most to go into deep creative mode and JAGs, I tend to do best there.
And then those super early morning hours when supposedly like the best time you're in that kind that twilight weird and like stuff just comes to you, I'm completely non -functional.
Yeah, so you got to learn.
You got to figure it out.
And Dan Pink has done a bunch of work in this area too.
It's great. Yeah, and I think maybe that's one of the big things to take from this also, is really just run the experiments.
So as we zoom the lens out a little bit here and we really just sort of like re -examine the concept of time anxiety, what's like an easy first, because people probably listening to this say, yes, I quote, have this thing.
I experienced on a regular basis.
You've just shared a whole bunch of different ideas to think about and potential things to try.
Have you seen in your own experiment or talking to other people that there's sort of like a logical or easy first step into what can I do?
I think the logical first step, we talked about giving yourself time, but maybe that's actually the, that's like the 1 .2 step.
Maybe the step that actually comes first is noticing and just noticing how you spend your time and not just letting it pass by, but I mean, you could take it, you could have a journal.
You could be scientific about this, but I think you could just notice, like, how do I spend my time?
What am I doing today?
How are like the different sections of the day broken up?
What do I do during transition times if I have a commute or if I go from one thing to another?
What does that feel like?
And maybe as a second step, you could ask, what do I want more of and what do I want less of?
And you could answer that, you know, however you see fit, right?
It could be really big picture, or it could be very, you know, minute.
What do I want more of in my life?
What do I want less of?
I think if you do these things, you really don't have to do anything else.
You could, you know, turn these into a bunch of active steps, but if you do these things, I think you will start living differently.
I think if you're noticing how you spend your time asking what you want more of and less of, then you will just naturally and intuitively, without even putting more active attention on it, start living differently, and start feeling better.
Love that, and it feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.
So I have asked you this question a number of times over the years, but it's been a chunk of years since I've asked you.
So, in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up?
I don't remember how I answered before, but what I think of now is paying attention.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hey, if you enjoyed this conversation, you'll also love the conversation we had with Cassie Holmes about managing and expanding time.
You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes.
This episode of Good Light Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
Editing help by Troy Young, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and Special thanks to Shelly Del Bliss for her research on this episode.
And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person.
And if you wanna share it with more that's awesome too, but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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