So imagine this.
You've just finished the college drop-off.
You're driving home, and for the first time in 18 or 20 years, the backseat is empty.
The house is quiet, too quiet.
For some of us, that silence feels like freedom.
And for others, it feels like just a gaping hole.
We have called this the empty nest for generations, but my friend Gretchen Rubin thinks that's a terrible way to describe a season of life that's actually full of opportunity.
Gretchen is one of those rare people who can take a complex human struggle and find the hidden gear.
That just kind of makes it work.
She's the author of The Happiness Project and Life in Five Senses, and today we're sitting down to talk about what she calls the open door transition.
And we explore why some of us are what she calls book people, who crave reinvention, while others are tree people who need deep roots, and how that difference can actually cause total chaos in a marriage once the kids are gone.
We also talk about the practical and sometimes awkward new rules for tracking texting, staying close to your adult kids without becoming a burden.
So excited to share this conversation with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
Gretchen Rubin.
Hello.
Where you are telling me we're hanging out at a little coffee shop on the upper side and you're like, I'm just really thinking a lot about this whole thing about like, when our kids leave the house.
And the word wrapped around it that we've all learned for generations is emptiness.
And you're like, that feels so not good to me.
Right, right.
Nobody likes that term.
Everybody agrees it's a terrible phrase, but it sticks because it does capture something.
Right.
So we're going to dive a lot into this and how you created a really cool reframe around it.
But why do you think it's stuck so long?
Because I don't think anybody likes it.
Nobody likes it, but I think – well, first of all, once it gets in everybody's head, it's hard to replace it.
But there is this idea that it's empty, that there is this sense that something has changed and there has been a departure.
And a lot of people talk about the loud quiets and the empty seat at the dining room table and like no one's like running up and down the stairs, and so the idea of like the emptiness.
But you know, what i just noticed today for the first time, and it blew my mind, is empty nest sounds like emptiness.
Ah, the emptiness of the empty nest and i think that's what we have to like, really challenge ourselves is like it's, it's space, it's opportunity.
But And then the nest is the metaphor for children.
And you want your house to be like a cozy nest.
The emptiness thing is really interesting.
Yes.
Because I wonder if your brain almost just hears it as emptiness and it sees it differently.
I don't know.
I was like, how has nobody pointed that out before to me?
That's pretty wild.
But I mean on the one hand.
I feel like some people hear that phrase and it's associated with freedom.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, finally.
Yeah.
And then other people hear that phrase and it's associated with sorrow.
Yeah.
And maybe yes, maybe it's just a yes and type of thing.
But I know, you know, I was thinking back to when you have 24 year old daughter.
Yeah.
And.
Thinking back to when we dropped her off at school.
You know college and we're a tiny little family.
There's three of us, and we drove up and dropped her off.
And she didn't want me coming up to her room for, like, the final drop-off.
So my wife kind of brought her up, and they're up there, and I'm hanging out in the car downstairs.
And like 15, 20 minutes later, my wife comes down and she finds me literally snot-sobbing in the car.
Aww.
Absolutely.
And what was going through your mind?
What was going through your mind?
I was just like, this, things will never be the same.
Things will never be the same.
Yeah.
I mean, is that what you, because you've been talking to so many people about this now.
Is that common?
Everything is common.
Everything is normal.
And that's part of what's confusing is every reaction, everything is false.
Some people feel so free and some people feel so abandoned, and some people feel like they're closer to their children when their children have some independence.
Some children are very difficult, and so it's easier to be close to them when there's some space.
Some feel bereft.
But it's funny that you say that because I remember when we were driving we did the drop off driving home we had like a three and a half hour drive.
And, you know, it was just sort of silent and quiet.
And Jamie said to me, you know, she'll be fine.
And I said, I know she'll be fine.
She'll be fine and we'll be fine.
But it will never be the same.
And he said, no, it will never be the same.
And so I think part of it is the poignance of just the end of a season of life.
Even apart from now, you can travel everything else, whether it's good or bad.
It is the end of a season of life, and it's always hard to see things come to an end.
And it's tied up in our own mortality, our own sense of our own lives kind of ratcheting up a notch.
It's really interesting what you bring up, also about the fact that some people, like we, make assumptions.
So I'm like, oh, this must be devastating for everybody.
And maybe it is for a lot of people in their own way.
But maybe there are also family situations where there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of discomfort, there's a lot of strife and relationships aren't great.
And in that context maybe it's actually something where everybody exhales at that moment and kind of says
Well, I think that's a really important point.
And that's one thing that I think is important for people to remember and it's maybe comforting is that you may be experiencing it as a negative, but other people can experience it as a positive.
And so I think it's helpful to realize there are other ways to see it.
And one of the most kind of touching things somebody told me was I was talking to a father and he said I had a really bad divorce was very contentious and a big issue was custody.
Thank you so much.
And so I think it's just comforting for people to feel like, well, for me, I'm feeling a big loss.
But maybe for other people, this was working out.
And somehow there's sort of a strange comfort in knowing that there are different ways to experience things.
They're not just, oh, my gosh, I've got a giant gaping hole in my life that nothing can fill.
Well, you feel that way, and that's important.
Or maybe you're married to somebody who doesn't feel that way.
It allows us to show more compassion to other people and ourselves because we see –
People are having a whole confusing range of responses.
That brings up something really interesting also, right?
Because we assume that our response is going to be pretty similar to other people.
But even within a relationship, if you're partnered with somebody, at that moment you may be experiencing it totally different than they are.
Yes.
And that's very confusing.
And there's something that's called splitting ambivalence.
What's that?
So this is when, because it's confusing and you're feeling like things that like opposites, you split the ambivalence.
So one person is like, this is so sad.
It'll never be the same.
Our family is gone.
Well, I miss her so much.
And then the other person's like, but this is great.
We wanted her to be independent.
This is like, all our dreams are come true.
This is great.
Now we can do what we want.
Instead of both people saying like-
Well, in some ways it's good.
In some ways it's bad because that's it's kind of hard.
You know how we always want to be binary.
It's like we just want things to be like, yes or no.
And so they split the ambivalence and then they polarize each other, because the more one person says like how are you not seeing this loss?
The other person is like, how are you not understanding that this is OK?
And so it is.
I think it can be really surprising in a couple where one person I know you love a good distinction, Jonathan.
So let me try this out on you.
So there are book people and tree people.
Book people are people who like to start a new chapter.
They turn over a new leaf and they think, oh, I'll reinvent myself.
And like, they like that.
You know, like a friend of mine said, everybody should reinvent themselves every 10 years.
And so they like that feeling of like turning a page.
Tree people want to be rooted in place.
They want to grow and flourish, but they want to stay rooted.
And so what happens sometimes is that you have people that are sort of acting like tree people because their child keeps them in one place.
But then the kids are gone and the book person says...
This is great.
Let's move to Portugal.
Let's move to the beach.
Like, let's shake things up.
Let's get an RV and drive around the country.
The other person is like, what are you talking about?
This is our home.
These are our friends.
These are our memories.
Like, how could you leave that behind?
Because they didn't understand this about themselves.
And neither is right, neither is wrong.
But sometimes in a couple, it can cause a lot of tension.
I could totally see that.
Somebody's like, oh, freedom.
Woo!
Yes, exactly.
And the other person is no.
We get to now just root deeper here and go deeper into community and spend more time with friends and join this group and that group.
Yes, exactly.
And you can see how they could get really frustrated with each other.
But...
But sometimes I just, you know how it is.
If you have a vocabulary to talk about these different, sometimes it's easier.
It makes it less personal.
It's just like, oh, I understand why you're thinking about things the way you are.
And here's why I'm seeing things in a different way.
And let's talk about it rather than like you're heartless or you're so rigid.
You know, which is how it can sometimes... Don't you see what's really happening here?
No, no, no, no.
And they're both right.
Of course, both people are right.
And both people, you know, they both have, they're both coming from a place of sincerity.
Okay, so book or tree?
I'm a tree person.
I've known you for a long time.
And I'm lucky because I'm married to a tree person.
He is such a tree person that we literally live around the corner from where he grew up.
And I mean, you do not even cross a street.
It's like 70 steps or something.
He was like, maybe after the kids leave, I live in New York City.
He said, we moved downtown.
I'm like, just to be clear, we're not moving more than 10 blocks in any direction.
I just like want it like... And he was like, okay.
Because we're both tree.
How about you?
You've got more of that book.
Yeah, you're a reinvention person.
You've had many incarnations.
Like if I'm doing the same thing or feeling like I'm the same in the same space or for too long, I get really antsy.
Do you feel stagnant or restless or stuck?
For me, I think, and it's interesting, right?
Because we both have a lot of creative energy in us.
We both love to create new things.
Yes, yes.
There's constantly ideas popping.
I do love a sense of ritual and routine.
And I do love to feel like I'm rooted in community.
But when it comes to sort of like who I am and how I show up in the world and where I'm devoting my energy I love the energy of reinvention.
You are the most willing to break things and start over of almost anybody that I know.
You're always on the kind of bleeding edge of whatever.
And you're very entrepreneurial, too.
Yeah.
And that's always been a part of me since I was a kid.
You've moved to many different kinds of places, not even from like city to city, but like city to rural, to suburban to
Mountains now.
Mountains.
Yeah.
But is your wife the same way?
You know, I think, and so I'm curious now with your theory, I think she's become more so over time.
So is your theory that we kind of are who we are and we kind of stay that way, or can it change over time?
I think we are who we are, but some people are more in one camp.
I'm very extreme on one camp.
No, in fact, I remember somebody once said to me if you didn't live in New York City, where would you live?
And I was like, probably I live in Kansas City.
That's where I grew up.
That's such a tree answer.
But then I think some people are more adaptable or they bring their own weather to the picnic.
They can find happiness moving or they could stay.
And so I don't know that it's that they've changed or learned, but maybe they have the aptitude of finding the good in both.
It's funny, as you're describing that literally, a conversation I had with a friend popped into my head where she was saying If I'm not a completely different person every seven years, I'm failing at life.
See, I mean, but the funny thing is about that though, is then they'll say like and that is a universal policy that everybody should adopt.
And if you don't feel that way, too, you're stagnant, you're not moving forward, whatever.
Instead of saying, like...
I'm the kind of person who feels that way.
Other people do not feel that way, you know.
Or you feel bad about yourself because you're like well, I don't reinvent myself every seven years.
But that's just a very book answer.
Totally.
But I think also like as more thinking about this as you're talking about it.
I feel like probably our association with Booker Tree is we feel it on such an identity level, a core level, that the notion of thinking that people could feel otherwise feels almost alien to us.
And you're right, because so many things are like that, where they go so deep that you're kind of like well, how could you possibly feel a different way or choose or embrace the way you are and not feel like you should want to be like this?
One of the things I always like to do is to try to have language around things so that people can see that.
Oh, of course, it's natural that a person might feel this way.
And it's natural that somebody might feel very differently.
But this is the kind of thing when children leave, many things become revealed.
Many things come to the surface.
Many things that have been ignored or just haven't come up start to reveal themselves.
And that's why I'm interested.
As somebody who studies happiness and self-knowledge, it's like a time of a forced reckoning.
And so to me, that's interesting.
Yeah.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
So, okay, so here's where this is taking me then.
So, you know, my wife and I and our daughter, when she came, spent 30 years in New York City.
Grew up just outside of the city, went to school in the city and just never left our entire adult lives up to five years ago.
New York City, you know, our daughter's born and raised like she is New York through and through.
We had a sense probably five years before we left that, Mm-hmm.
And we didn't want to disrupt that.
And I would imagine a lot of parents make decisions based on the fact that they really want their kids to thrive.
Yes.
But we got another five years, another seven years, like we can deal with that.
But you're almost like telling yourself the story of I'm going to convince myself that I'm this other orientation for now, because there's strong enough justification.
Well, here's what I would say to that is, if in your mind you're thinking well, we're here for five years because our children are doing really well.
But at the end of that time, we'd like I'd like to move.
Tell your spouse now, because I know a lot of people who have moved and it's like sometimes one is really intent on moving and the other one is more like your wife.
Like well, I could just as soon stay.
But if you really want to go, I can go.
But don't spring it on somebody.
Don't just assume that they're going to have the same reaction.
Because I think a lot of people are truly astonished.
They've never mentioned it before.
But they're like, oh, this is great.
Now we can move to the beach.
And the other person is like, what are you talking about?
This is the kind of thing, it's in your mind.
Start talking about it early.
Say, this is what the future...
I think could look like for us.
And let's start talking about it because you're setting yourself up for a huge conflict.
If, at a time of major change, you bust out with some other huge major change that someone's not mentally prepared for.
That is such a good point because the change itself I mean a kid leaving the house is wildly disruptive and destabilizing, probably for a lot of people.
So then you pile on top of it, like one partner coming saying and let's just blow up our whole geographic point of reference here and go somewhere entirely different.
But if that's your plan, if you're sort of like like I know, because I live in New York City, I know a lot of people who they lived in New York City, in the city.
They moved out to the suburbs when they had a kid and they all said, I'll be back.
And some are and some aren't.
But for the ones that came back, they kind of had to talk about it.
They kind of had to make a plan for it.
It's a huge deal to move.
And the ones that have done it successfully are the ones that we're talking about it well in advance and thinking about it preparing their children.
Some children don't really care about their hometowns or whatever.
Some children are super well.
Some kids are super sentimental about like, seeing their high school friends and all that.
And then there are the city kids that, or you know, some cities have kids that it's hard to take a kid out of a big city.
Yeah.
I mean, so we were like, we were pandemic transplants.
We didn't actually, you know, even though we kind of knew, we had a sense that eventually we'd like to be somewhere else.
Even when our daughter went off to college, we weren't thinking about leaving.
We weren't thinking about moving.
We're like, ah, we still want a place.
This is her home.
We want a place for her to come back to.
And it's not just our apartment and us.
This is the place that she knows.
Yeah.
Maybe there's something about New York City kids in particular.
I don't know.
But at least our kid, she had a love affair with the city itself.
Yes, mine too.
Mine too.
Really, really absolutely loved it and explored it from the tiniest age.
Mine too.
Our kids are bopping around on subways and buses in middle school, and they're super independent.
So we stuck around.
And we had no intention of leaving probably until she had finished college.
We're like, let's just keep sticking it out.
So she has this place to come back to.
And then the pandemic hit.
She got sent back to us in New York.
We rode out the early part of the pandemic here.
And then we just all got to a point where we're like it's getting.
Really, we just need to be somewhere else so we can be outside and breathe a little bit.
So we went to Colorado thinking we'd be there for two, three months tops, but We'd come back to New York during the holidays.
We'd settle back in.
I kind of remember that stage where you were coming and going.
And we just kept extending and extending and extending.
I mean, we calculated at one point in the first 18 months we had been in like 18 different Airbnbs and rentals.
Because we kept pushing more and pushing more.
And we were living out of basically our car in a cargo box on top of it with storage facilities.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It hit a point where we're like, what are we actually doing here?
And by staying in this almost like, you know, liminal space, are we damaging us?
Are we damaging our relationship?
Are we causing harm to our kid?
Because she's just feeling really untethered.
Yeah.
Like, where is home?
Yeah.
And there were times where she literally said to us she's like, people are asking me like where do you live?
And she's like, I don't know how to answer them.
Interesting.
Now, but was it super emotional when you gave up your New York City apartment?
I don't think so.
Only because we didn't think we were leaving the city.
You know, I think we were like, oh, we're tapping out for a couple of months and we'll be back.
When we eventually decided out there to sign a lease for a house.
Right, right.
Really put down roots.
Then we were all kind of like, oh, this was a different decision than any of us expected.
And it took another couple of years before we sort of said maybe this is actually where we live now.
Yeah.
Well, that's part of remote work is, I think there's a lot more possibilities and that's exciting, but it can also mean conflict within a family because people have a different idea of what they want.
And again, it was very surreal for us because we did all of this during the pandemic.
Sure.
So all the regular, the normal rules were just gone.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it just shook everything up.
Yeah, and for our daughter also.
She ended up actually taking a gap semester and then transferring schools in the middle of it.
So everything was just up in the air.
So when we think about this whole concept of the season of empty nesting…
Let's talk about the language itself.
This was the thing that got our conversation started years back.
When you really like starting to think about this.
You're like, there's better languaging around this to take me into this.
One of the things that's really surprised me is how much literally, vocabulary matters and metaphors matter.
Like, it really matters if you practice piano or you play piano.
It matters if you network or you engage with your colleagues.
It matters these subtle changes.
And...
And so I was trying to.
I was searching for a metaphor that I thought was more positive and kind of, but kind of captured the vibe that I wanted to associate with it.
So I thought of things like better bandwidth, because a lot of people talk about they just have more bandwidth for everything time, energy and money for like the things that are important to them.
I thought of like open seas, because I had this like vision in my mind of like a boat, sort of like taking off.
And then I landed on Open Door, which I really like as I've lived with it for a while, because it captures this idea of coming and going, because my daughters are coming and going.
But they're leaving, but they're also coming back.
And I think that's something that people often say.
It's not empty.
They're coming back.
They are coming back.
But also, my husband Jamie and I, we can also leave.
The door is open for us.
We're more free to come and go.
It's hospitality.
It's the idea of threshold because it is a threshold.
You talk about liminality.
It's also kind of like you know, if you're a manager and you have an open door policy, it's like I'm not micromanaging you, but if you want to stop by and hear what I have to say, my door is always open.
I think that's kind of an ideal of parenthood which is like okay, you're going off and being independent, but I'm here.
And if you want to stop by and get some counsel from me, I'm always available to you.
It really captured a lot of the different aspects that I sort of wanted to hold on to as I was going through the stages the open door transition.
I love that language also because emptiness feels like it's one direction.
It does.
They leave.
Yeah.
They don't come back.
You're left behind.
You're bereft.
And I think that's part of it is like feeling left behind.
And I do think that that's one of the things that's really important for parents, which is what do you have going for yourself?
Like what's new?
What's fresh?
Because it's one thing to be the one who leaves and it's another thing to be the one who stays.
Yeah.
And if you don't like, reinvent what's going on for you, it is very easy to feel like there's just a loss or a gap, instead of feeling oh, now all these new things are coming in.
I want to go deeper into that though, right?
Because I feel like so many parents a solid chunk of your identity becomes subsumed in the role of parent.
Yes.
And to the point where if you ask people further into parenting, who are you?
What they'll immediately come to mind is who they used to be, but no longer are, because they feel like the role of parent has just completely overtaken that deeper sense.
Well, it's so interesting that you bring this up, because one of the things I'm trying to do is come up with like a list of questions where like, if you answer yes to like one or more of these questions, you might be at risk for like a pretty rocky transition.
So be careful.
And one of the questions that I put on is can you describe yourself to a stranger without referring to your child or as your role as parent?
Like how would you do that?
Yeah.
Because I think for some people they're kind of like well, I don't know how I would describe myself to a stranger.
Right.
It's interesting also, right?
Because if you ask that question, somebody's joining us for this conversation, right?
And they just planted that question in their head.
And if the first thing is like well, I'm kind of struggling to define myself beyond my role as a parent.
My concern is that the immediate response to that is going to be self-judgment and shame.
Right, right.
Like, why have I lost track of myself?
I'm so yeah, yeah.
You know, that's a really good point.
And I do when I talk to people about it, I think there is a feeling of like, I lost myself.
And now it's over.
And like, how did this happen?
Or I should not have allowed it to happen.
But, on the other hand, like the identity of parent, is one that is valorized and very respected and is very important to you for your whole life.
So again, there's that tension where, on the one hand, it's like an incredibly important part of your identity.
But then it also can't be.
It's like with happiness.
I was trying to figure out this tension and then I realized oh, it's like one of these things where both are true.
They're opposites, but both are true, which happens so much.
And one of them is like, I want my daughters to know that they are essential to my happiness.
Right.
They are the most important things in the world to me.
And also, they are not essential to my happiness.
I have other things in my life that are just as important.
Both are true.
And I don't think they want to be responsible for my happiness.
It's a big weight to carry.
Which is such a huge way to carry.
It's like I need to perform in a certain way so that my mom or my dad are like happy.
Oh, yeah.
Somebody said to me, well, the only thing that's important to me is that my son is happy.
And I'm like, that's too much of a burden for him.
You can't make him responsible for your happiness.
Anyway, but on the other hand I want them to be like oh, of course I'm, the most important thing in the world is my mother.
It's both have to be true.
And it's confusing.
Yeah, no, it definitely is.
So somebody is, is at that point, and then they ask that question like this question you like, describe yourself, without actually referencing that role.
And they're really struggling to do it.
What do you say to them?
Well, there's a lot of things that you can do to get back in touch with an identity.
So, for example, one thing I think one of the most appealing ones, or the most available ones, is to return to an earlier identity.
It's very easy to lose touch with identities.
So you think about things like...
Yeah.
What did you do for fun when you were 10 years old?
What did you do when you were 20?
Here's a tell.
Is there something around in your life that you never use but you won't relinquish?
Oh, that's interesting.
I have two friends who had drum sets.
One had a drum set in his office, and one had a drum set in this room off his living room.
And they're big, right?
That's a big opportunity cost.
And they're not that appealing.
It's not like a cool guitar.
It's not beautiful to look at, right?
Yeah, or like a violin on a stand or something like that.
My side hustle is trying to bully my friends into clearing their clutter.
And so with both of them, I really pushed on them.
I'm like...
Do you play this?
Like, what's going on?
And neither one of them could let go of it.
And to me, that's important.
What does this mean to you?
Why do you need to hold on to this?
Maybe that to me is like a very powerful clue that it's something to return to.
And maybe it's not the drumming, but what does the drumming stand for in your mind?
What is it that it's holding for you that you're not tapping into, but you're also not letting go of?
Right.
So that's a clue that you could use.
Or like you've got tennis rackets, but you never play tennis.
Or you have a lot of art supplies, but you never do art.
Or you keep reading books about creativity, but you're never actually writing your own project.
Right.
That's a great question.
I would imagine also that it could get a little bit muddled, because sometimes the things we hold on to there's like a sentimentality to it rather than an attachment to sort of like a sense of past identity.
And you got to be able to tease that out a little bit.
That's an excellent point, right?
Because is it like, oh, this is this concert t-shirt that's just like kind of a memento for me?
Or is it somehow, what does it signify?
You're right, right.
All these things.
It's like a whole period of self-examination, which I think is why this is such a valuable time.
If you really push yourself to do these like, gain the wisdom that you can.
Yeah.
I wonder if part of what you see going on here as you talk to people about this too, is that for some people, part of the maybe even subconscious intention behind just really dropping into the role of parent.
Is you feel good about it?
You feel strong about it.
Like you said, there's a lot to be celebrated.
If you look at every bio that I have publicly right now, it starts with dad.
Before any of my professional things, it's like dad, husband, published author, maker, yada, yada.
I want to be known first and foremost for my role in my family.
I'm proud of it.
But I also wonder if there are some relationships and some family dynamics where we drop into a particular family role, a parenting role.
And over time, or maybe even before that, the dynamic within the adults in the relationship isn't great, but you gain the ability to say I'm going to compartmentalize.
There is this one thing I'm going to pour myself into.
Yes.
Absolutely pour myself into.
Yes.
And maybe the other person's pouring themselves into work or something like that at the same time.
And it's enough of a oh, I'm busy doing X or I'm busy doing Y, that you never have to deal with the fact that the fiber of the actual relationship has been frayed for a really long time and you're not sure what's left there.
And then when a kid leaves the house.
Yes.
All of a sudden.
Okay, so if that identity, that thing that has allowed us to compartmentalize and not deal with the central thing, we can't point to it anymore in a meaningful way.
If you see sort of like in this moment also, people are starting to say okay, so what is there for us now?
Right.
No, it's very common.
And it's interesting, like the different forms it takes.
Like.
So one person was like my wife is very difficult and she tends to shut down if she like doesn't get her way.
And I just would sort of go along with her to create a like a happy atmosphere for my children.
But now that they're gone, like...
I really can't be bothered to deal with it.
You know what I mean?
So it's kind of like I don't want to do the work that you take if it's not for the benefit of like family life.
There's people where they, you know.
I talked to a guy who said something like my wife was always really interested in the children.
And like when we would like sit around, we would always talk about their friends, their activities.
And he said, that was fine.
I enjoyed that too.
But now she's interested in what I'm doing.
And she's asking me questions.
And I'm really enjoying that.
So for him, it was positive.
It's like, okay, this is a good thing.
But then there are people that are like now I'm really.
Or there are people who say oh, you know, now this person just wants to go off and do.
What sometimes happens is that one person has taken a part-time role or not worked to the fullest extent that they could because they've been sort of doing like managing the household.
And... they want to go full on and work.
They want to travel for work.
They want to push themselves.
They say, oh, now this is my time.
And the other person might be saying, oh, I'm getting near retirement.
I want to travel.
Let's do some fun things together now that we don't have the kids holding us home.
So there are all these ways where people can be going in different directions but not realize it until the kids are gone, and then it's all exposed.
Yeah.
I mean, it sounds like a thing that we keep coming back to.
Then is this notion of The importance of probably seeing a date coming and not waiting until the day?
You see it coming 18 years in advance.
It's like, this is not a surprise.
Right.
It's like a year or two or maybe longer.
Start to have conversations way earlier than we generally ever do.
Yeah.
Just to say like, what are you worried about?
You know, it's funny.
I don't know that people always are good judges of even what they'll think.
Right.
At the time when it actually happens.
Yeah.
You know, it was like that with parenthood where you were sort of like I have no idea, like how I'll deal with this.
Like you honestly don't know what you'll be like.
I remember being like kind of had some trepidation about that.
I remember a very wise friend.
I said something to her about that and she said you will still be you.
And as simple as it is.
That was so comforting to me because I was like I've seen people change so much in parenthood.
It was kind of scary.
But I think with this too.
But I think you could start to talk about, like are you envisioning a move?
Do you think that we'll move?
Will we downsize?
Will we upsize?
Do you think we'll...
Do you envision doing something like getting a dog?
Because you should let me know.
Do you feel like you're going to be working more?
Do you feel like you're going to change jobs?
There's so many things that, yeah, you could at least try to sketch out the major things.
You could try to predict.
You could at least talk about it.
And maybe somebody has a thought of they're curious about something, even if they're not sold on it.
They're just like huh.
It'd be interesting to maybe think about what it would be like to do this or change this about my work, or live in a different place or split our time or something like that.
Right.
Right.
Like we could just go and look and see what let's go state.
Let's go there for a week and see if we like it or whatever.
Yeah.
You could explore it.
The idea is to try to do it as a team and to have a feeling of like, we're both in it together.
And like we want to figure out a way for both of us to thrive, rather than people feeling isolated in their own experience.
Just spring it on you.
Hey.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No it's, it's Or people, and if they're very different, like my husband and I are both like really love to work.
So really a challenge for us is just not to work all the time, because one of the good things about children is they sort of force you to take time off and take vacations and not work on the weekends and stuff.
So that's been our issue.
But you could imagine that if one person's like, oh, now great, I can work so much more.
And the other person's like, no, now we can play.
Yeah.
Friction.
Friction.
Right.
So that would be the kind of thing that maybe you could see that coming in advance.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
Let's talk about policies towards our kids.
When we think about okay, so maybe they've left for – let's not assume that they're going to college, right?
But maybe it's just time for them to leave the house.
Maybe they've turned 18 or maybe they're traveling the world.
Maybe they're starting a business, whatever it may be.
Or they're at community college.
They live at home, but they're just out all the time.
So they're living an independent life even though they're sort of under your roof.
College drop-off is just like the most – blunt example of there are many times when this could happen, right.
So, whatever it looks like for you, what are some of the things that we should be thinking about in terms of agreements or understandings that we have with our kids about what this might look like?
Well, one of the things that is very tricky about today is tracking.
This is a huge issue.
Life 360, Find My, things like that.
I think that for many parents, because they can supervise a little bit more or feel like they're supervising, they feel like it's their responsibility to do that.
And then they're really up in their kid's business.
Tell me what you think, Jonathan.
I'm like, can I...
Just as a single person in the world say, I declare that once a week is enough to be sufficient of a contact.
Now, this is back in the day.
This is what people who are parents now probably did as college age kids or they were out, which is once a week you were supposed to call.
And everybody sort of accepted that.
Now today, of course, some people are texting a million times a day.
But what is the minimum acceptable amount?
Right, which is going to be totally different based on the person, and also probably expectations from parents and kids are totally different.
No, it's like the scene from Annie Hall.
One mother said to me, like, oh, my God, I'm estranged from my son.
I was like, oh, what happened?
She goes, you know, he texts me maybe two or three times a week.
I never hear from him.
And then I talk to another mother.
I'm like, how's it going?
She goes, oh, it's great.
You know, I hear from him, you know, a couple times a week.
It's all going well.
And it's like, OK, so it is the expectation.
So I think you want to talk to your child about like, well, what is your expectation?
I think a really good thing to say to a child is if I text you.
All you have to do is give me like an emoji, like a thumbs up emoji, and that is just like I am answering my phone.
I am in a state of life where it is possible for me to read my phone and send you like an emoji from time to time.
And especially like kids know, like they have a really worried mom.
They have a really frantic dad.
Like they know what you're like.
So talk to them about what would allow you to – let go of the reins a little bit more, but still in a way that feels acceptable to both.
But what some parents do is they say, I'm really anxious.
You need to respect my anxiety and give me the reassurance I need.
It's like, no, that anxiety is on you.
There's a limit where, okay, but what is the acceptable minimum?
That's why I think we need to sort of figure that out.
That all lands with me.
Talk to me about the tracking thing, though.
Because I think a lot of parents, it's inconspicuous.
It's not a big deal when the kid's young.
Everyone in the family has the fine wire.
And it's cozy.
It's sweet.
It's just nice.
Oh, they'll be home in 10 minutes.
There's nothing nefarious or overbearing about it.
But then when your kid moves into the next season, that can change.
Well, and let me give you an example.
So somebody said to me, well, I said to my son, what are you doing this weekend?
And he said, not much.
But then I looked on Life 360 and then I saw he went to a party an hour away from campus.
So he lied to me.
I'm like, I wouldn't say that he lied to you.
I would say he didn't feel like describing what he was doing to his mom.
Maybe he didn't think it was much.
Maybe it came up last minute.
What's your right to be informed?
That's an appropriate thing for a kid in college to do.
And you've put him in a situation where you're saying that he's deliberately deceiving you.
Right.
That's a big possible point of conflict between you and a child.
And it's kind of something that you have created.
If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have known.
What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over.
And there's a lot of things our college kids are doing which we're probably just much better off not knowing that they're doing it.
As our parents were better off, like, having no one knowing what we do.
100%.
I'm with a lot of people.
I'm like, well, how did you do this with your parents?
And they're like, oh, my parents do nothing.
Right.
Because we didn't have all this stuff back then.
Because we didn't have all this stuff.
So everybody's trying to find, like, what is the right balance for my kid?
And, of course, they're wildly different.
Some kids need a lot of help and supervision.
Some kids are, like, asked for too much.
Like, they're calling all the time, texting all the time.
That's hard to manage.
Yeah. shows up in all different ways.
So there's no.
I mean, do you feel like it makes sense to just have a sit-down conversation with your kid about this?
Yes, absolutely.
It's like, what do you think is appropriate?
And a lot of kids are very reasonable, you know.
And by the way, they know how to trick it.
Right, just turn it off when you do it.
Yeah, you turn it off, you leave your phone, you disconnect.
I mean, there's all kinds of things to do.
And they're going to be way better at figuring that out than you are.
So I think some people...
It's a tool, but some people just don't manage it in a way that's good for them or the relationship.
So having that conversation, I think, I agree.
I think it's so important.
Let's wind the tape forward a little bit.
Kids out of the house for a bit, for whatever reason, and then they return home.
Maybe they return home for summer break or for winter break, or maybe...
It's just a season of life where they've gone like job change, job loss, relationship ends trauma, whatever.
And they kind of want to be home for a bit to get their feet under them.
And that could be anywhere from a few weeks to months or maybe longer years, especially now.
I mean, I think we've both seen the stats.
The number of kids returning to the home and staying for significant amounts of time is going up significantly.
What are the big things that you see that we need to pay attention to in those moments?
Well, part of it is, I think.
Again, it comes back down to a conversation about what are expectations like?
What is the person expected to contribute to the household finances?
What are the rules about things like curfew?
What are the things about like noise and chores?
Because it's like you're not coming back and getting to be like a 14-year-old, where I'm doing the laundry and I'm doing the grocery shopping and to just like –.
Really talk those things through because it can become a big sore spot.
And it's hard if a child isn't just like, has not have like even the consideration of like being in the house, because now they're big and they can make a big mess.
They can make a big noise like it can be really disruptive.
But then you also need to respect the fact that like this is a 26 year old.
This isn't a 15 year old.
So if they want to stay out till 3 a.m., they can.
Right.
It's complicated, right?
I mean, I remember a couple years back sitting down with an adolescent psychologist who told me he's like yeah, we used to think adolescents ended 18, 20 years old.
It's like we now know that biologically, adolescence actually doesn't end until around 25 for the typical person, which means and he described it as he said basically until you're 25, your brain is all gas and no brake here.
But i'll argue the other point of that, because some parents are now i've seen parents invoking that research yeah, to basically justify them staying as like, a supervising parent.
That's interesting, very long.
Okay, it used to be like in the 1950s, people who are like 21, 22 years old were married right, had a baby.
Yeah, we're working for your first.
Yeah, i mean, they were completely independent and so the idea that like, as a 22 year old, you're incapable of like, doing your own laundry.
So I worry sometimes when people are like okay, we're just extending my parental judgment over you because like, your cerebral cortex isn't ready for it.
But it is also true.
People are impulsive.
Both are true.
But I do think...
If you put it in perspective.
One thing that I would love to do is when my daughters were really little, their preschool would have this thing.
Like you're a three-year-old.
And it's like, your three-year-old should be able to take off their own winter coat.
And I was always like, oh, well, I'm doing way too much for my three-year-old, right?
They're like, you're not at all supporting their independence.
And I'm like, your 18-year-old should be able to make their own dentist appointments.
And go, they should be able to get out of bed without you calling them.
They should be able to.
What are these things?
You know in a family culture that said, as soon as you're 18, you got to be able to cover yourself.
Right.
And you've been raised toward that.
Right.
You know, and then your kid comes home and all of their peers and all their family cultures are different.
They're like, no, like this is my home.
Like this is, it should be open for me and I should be okay.
And I'm just, I'm struggling a bit here and I need to get back on my feet.
And don't you want to support me in that?
And like making me pay this and do that.
It's like, that's gotta be something that comes up on a regular basis.
It is.
And I think that that's a really good point, that there are the differences like the expectations of the generations and like what they think is appropriate.
Yeah again, it just comes back to like having an open communication with it and trying not to impose it and but just really come to it from a place of curiosity and like how do we create an environment where everybody thrives?
Yeah.
So I think zooming out, the thing we keep coming back to on both levels is this is unfolding.
It's almost like it's unfolding on three levels on an individual identity level.
On an adult relationship level.
Yes.
Right.
And then on an adult.
Yeah, that's very true.
Because people are just like busy, they're doing their own thing.
But then a lot of times you'll reconnect with your siblings.
So that's a really positive thing that can happen.
But I think you're right.
There's the individual, like my identity, my purpose, sense of growth.
Then there's marriage, if you have it, or if you're single, how are you dealing with that?
Friends, family, community, and then your relationship with your child.
I love the idea of just thinking about those.
And also your repeated suggestion, rather than waiting to the day of to the extent that you can start to think about you know like how might I feel?
What might I want?
What might I be curious about before that?
You know, ask it of yourself, ask it of any relevant, you know, relationships that you might have.
And there's definitely signs that you're like, you're probably going to struggle.
So I think it's good.
What do we look for?
If you would say my child is my whole world.
Okay.
If you would say my child is one of my best friends.
If you would say, I don't really have any significant relationships outside my family.
If you say I can't really describe myself to a stranger without referring to I'm a soccer dad, I'm the father of three girls, I am, you know, whatever it is.
Those are signs that maybe you want to start thinking about it, like setting yourself up.
I mean even something as simple as like one night a week.
I'm just going to do something for fun myself.
I'm going to take a class.
I'm going to start a book club.
I'm going to get together with my college friends who live in town.
Like where you just say, it is possible for me to carve out part of my life, which is just...
I want to sing in the church choir and I'm just going to do that.
And everybody else has to figure out what to do for dinner.
Just to sort of start holding space for that to do your transition.
It's interesting.
Sometimes people who are divorced say that they think it's good practice.
The people who split custody.
They feel like often have it like it's hard for them because there's nobody at home with them.
But they have started facing these questions much earlier.
Right, right, right.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Huh.
So interesting.
So much to think about.
I love this.
I feel it's a good place for us to come full circle as well.
I have asked you this question a number of times over the years.
We're going to ask it again because it's been a number of years in this container of good life project.
If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
Accept myself and also expect more for myself.
Thank you.
Hey, before you go, make sure to tune in next week for our conversation with the legendary author Michael Pollan about the elusive nature of consciousness and why it's currently under siege.
Michael shares why our awareness is the most precious thing we own and how we can reclaim our attention in an age of constant distraction.
Be sure to follow Good Life Project where you get your podcasts, so you don't miss that upcoming episode.
This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young.
Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.
And, of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
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I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
