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Hey there, it's Nick Fountain.
You know when you go into a restaurant and you're like,
this place is perfect.
I can stay here for hours, they can have all my money, I just want all the dishes.
And sometimes it has less to do with what's on the menu than how the restaurant looks and
feels.
Well, every time that happens to me, I think back on this show that we did back in 2020,
where we hung out with a restaurant tour and a restaurant consultant.
Who thinks all day about how to squeeze the most out of people like me, the customer,
while also trying to provide a great dining experience?
It's a fun show and today we have an update from the restaurant tour at the center of
it.
But first, we're going to listen to the original show.
Here it is.
You are going to love it.
Dan Passman.
Hey Sally.
You will recall the scene.
It is last summer.
Very hot day.
I should have worn shorts.
And you and I show up at a little restaurant in New York City, specifically in Long Island City,
Queens.
It's a casual Indian place called Adda, which translates roughly to Hangout Spot.
And that's the vibe founder Ronnie Mazumdar was going for.
You're Ronnie?
I'm Sally.
How are you?
Very nice to meet you.
Ronnie knows the restaurant business.
He currently owns three places in New York, but he's also run two that have closed, including
one in this very location.
And he told us that the whole concept of Adda is a risk.
We took a lot of chances in a restaurant like this.
Serving goat brains isn't really a normal protocol here in New York because you're scared
out of your mind like maybe it's way too ethnic.
When Adda got noticed with some great reviews and a fancy James Beard Award nomination, suddenly
the business changed and unexpectedly Ronnie had a problem.
The problem is not the food.
It's actually the physical space and how the physical space relates to the money.
OK, so to explain this, first, you got to understand that Ronnie designed his restaurant
one way.
We were genuinely never expecting people beyond a five block radius.
There's a college across the street, lots of young professionals working in the area.
But now Adda is a destination.
And it's a destination for people from different parts of the world are coming.
This is no longer a quick bite restaurant.
People are spending more time than we expected.
That also creates a certain economic pressure.
It does.
That's why the chairs don't have cushions.
I'm dead serious.
If the chairs are too comfortable, people might stay too long.
And Ronnie is set on keeping prices low, which means if he's going to turn a good profit,
he needs people to eat quickly, then leave and make space for more customers.
But not feel too rushed.
I mean, he wants them to have a good enough time that they come back, of course.
Balance.
Yeah, that's the key for any restaurant tour.
You got to get the most out of every table, every seat, every minute that you're open.
And to do that, a restaurant has to balance three things.
Price, timing, and space.
All of them come with trade-offs.
Yeah, you can do low prices and quick turnover.
Or you can make it really comfy so that people are OK paying more, but then they stay
longer.
Of course, you want to fit as many people in your restaurant as possible, but you can't
go too far with that because then no one's going to want to come back.
I mean, people don't like to eat literally in a human pile.
So trade-offs.
And how a place balances these trade-offs sets the tone and the profits for a restaurant.
And this industry operates on tiny margins.
So if that balance is off, even a James Beard Award-nominated restaurant is vulnerable.
Johnny is doing a lot of things right, but his problem, it is right smack in the front
of the restaurant for everyone to see.
A does worst table.
What table is this?
101.
You say that with like an ominous.
This is the only table that's a high top.
Because it's higher up, it's raised off the ground.
Yes.
And we wanted that because we wanted sort of a little nice vantage point so people can
really see outside.
Ronnie, with his years of experience, he felt that table 101 was going to be the best
table in the house.
I mean, it's the window seat, right?
And usually people love the window seat.
But at Udda, this window table has the restaurant's lowest check average.
Ronnie doesn't get it.
That's why we brought Ronnie a secret weapon.
Definitely, Robson.
She's an expert on restaurant psychology and design.
And she has agreed to come to Udda and conduct an experiment.
Can she use her research to turn table 101 into the best seat in the house?
And also show me and Dan and everyone else the little tricks that restaurants use to
get us to spend more.
Hello and welcome to Planet Money.
I'm Sally Helm.
And I'm Dan Pashman, host of the Sporkful of podcast about food and eating.
Today on the show, we take a page from Reality TV.
We're doing a data-driven restaurant makeover.
It is a game of inches and everything inside is fair game.
We're totally dismantling your entire restaurant.
Love it.
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We meet Stephanie Robson in the street outside Atta.
Have you been here before?
I have not.
It took me a while to find it.
We picked Stephanie because she's the perfect person to figure out the problem with Table 101.
She's consulted with dozens of restaurants.
Her specialty, the way design affects how much we spend.
She teaches this stuff at Cornell.
Stephanie did one study that showed that playing fast songs got people out of a restaurant
seven or eight minutes quicker.
Other research suggests that if you play faster music, people might also spend more
per minute.
Stephanie says that could be why grocery stores play so much 80s music.
And these days she is very focused on tables.
How close tables can be and what effect that has on the guest, which is kind of mortifying.
When you talk to other people who do research and some people will be coming up with a new
theory of physics and I'm studying the distance of restaurant tables.
Well, for the record Stephanie, I think your research is very important.
Well, thank you, Dan.
It is important, especially to someone running a restaurant.
Restaurants don't really sell food.
They sell space.
That's what they're in the business of doing.
You're running a real estate business.
It is a real estate business that's exactly right.
And the diners are like renting tables?
Yeah.
Yeah, think about it.
When you go to a restaurant that has a really high check average, really high prices,
they can give you a bigger table.
They can give you bigger tables because they can afford to because you're paying more
in rent.
And for that money, for that extra money, you are quite literally getting more space for
more time.
Yes.
That's exactly right.
And so if you're at a restaurant where they don't have that kind of a check average,
think about fast food restaurants you've been to.
You don't get a comfy booth at McDonald's.
That's on purpose because they don't want you to stay.
Stephanie is ready to take on Table 101.
So when we walk in here in a sack, what are you going to be looking for?
The thing I'm going to look for is what style of seating they have.
But I get a first impression just looking at the mix of tables and where they are.
Is that always what it's like for you when you walk into a restaurant?
Do you use your eye go straight to the tables?
I am single for a reason, Sally.
Stephanie used to bring a tape measure in her purse everywhere she went.
She says she has never whipped it out on a first date.
But she did once get kicked out of the food court at the Pentagon City Mall outside DC
because she was drawing little diagrams of the tables and the guards thought that was suspicious.
It sounds totally normal to me.
Should we do it? Should we go inside?
Let's do it.
All right.
It's definitely described to us what you're seeing.
I am seeing really interesting mix of tables.
This is an unusually shaped restaurant.
Adet is long and narrow.
From the door, we can see the whole thing.
There's the problem table 101 in the front window.
Then it's a row of 2% tables against a long wall with a bankette.
That's like bench seating that runs almost the whole length of the restaurant.
And on the other side of the room, there's a little nook and alcove.
In Stephanie's mind, every part of the restaurant is a subtle clue for diners about how we should
behave and what we should expect.
Like if you have heavy cutlery, research suggests you are willing to spend more.
You're like, oh my god, this fork is so heavy in my hand.
The salmon must be worth $30.
Right.
Whereas if it comes on a paper plate with a plastic fork, you're like, clearly the salmon
has been farmed.
I did low quality salmon here.
Right.
So first, Stephanie looks around.
She zooms in on the furniture.
The chairs that I see are all metal.
You're not going to sit in these for a long time.
We sometimes talk about restaurant chairs based on how long you're comfortable.
You can order a two hour chair or a three hour chair.
Order them from your restaurant supplier.
So say you're a steakhouse and you're going to charge a lot for your steaks and sell expensive
bottles of wine.
You can order the nice, cushy, three hour chairs with the arm rests.
Your plan is to have people stay longer so you can sell them in extra cocktail, some desserts.
But these metal chairs, that are, what is this like a 30 minute chair?
This is probably a 42 minute and 30 second chair.
Wow.
I think Stephanie was kidding about the 30 seconds, but it wouldn't shock me if she was right.
As we were talking about this, up walks the guy who can tell us all about these chairs.
Ronnie.
So, Stephanie, Ronnie, Ronnie, Stephanie.
Hi, Ronnie.
Ronnie and Stephanie get right into it.
Actually, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about your restaurant if you don't
mind.
Sure.
So she starts off by asking, what's up with that cool little alcove in the wall there?
That was a mop closet, which we turned into a little nook, but that turned out to be
the best seat in the house.
I was going to ask you why it's there, but you just answered that for me.
It was a mop closet.
The mop closet table is the top table in the restaurant in terms of overall check average.
Stephanie hears this and is like, ah, yes, I thought so.
One of her big research findings is that customers like tables that are anchored.
That means they're up against a wall or in a corner.
We don't like feeling exposed.
We like to be able to defend our space.
We're still basically cave people.
And actually, there are a lot of anchored tables at Ada, good for the caveman part of
our brains.
A lot of them are up against that long wall with the bankette, but then, of course, there
is the table in the window.
So let's bring it back to this table, table 101.
Oh, boy.
We walk over to table 101.
Remember, Stephanie's goal is to make it psychologically and financially optimal.
And Ronnie has given her free reign.
Stephanie looks at it immediately.
She's like, oh, yeah, we can make this better.
I'm tempted to pull out a piece of paper right now.
Maybe I think it Dan has a tape measure.
We can draw this thing up.
Absolutely.
Let's do it.
All right.
Break out the blueprints.
Stephanie says, OK, look.
First of all, the high top thing isn't working for you.
Not now that the restaurant isn't that quick bite place anymore.
People at this table feel like they're not part of the restaurant.
They might be tempted to just order drinks and appetizers and then head out.
So we need to bring this table down to the level of the others.
And then she adds something else.
She says, remember that mop closet table?
It's doing so well.
People love to feel like they're in their own space, snug and cozy.
But this table over here, it's right by the door.
What I would do is then add a little stub wall, sort of perpendicular to the wall right
by the doorway.
How high do you think the wall should be?
42 inches.
Why?
You don't want a wall that's so high that people can't see over it.
They kind of feel a little uncomfortable when they can't see the whole restaurant.
But you also want it high enough that it feels like you're comfortable and anchored.
All right.
Sally, did you hear how quickly Stephanie said 42 inches?
She knows.
She's so hardcore.
I love it.
Anyway, she says that if Ronnie adds this little wall, he can turn this into a much better
table.
Okay.
So we have a notebook here.
So why don't you describe for me, Ronnie, what do you'd like to do?
Maximum number of seats, humanly possible.
It becomes clear pretty quickly that Stephanie and Ronnie have different agendas.
Ronnie wants more seats for more customers.
Basically, feed as many people as possible as quickly as possible without sacrificing too
much on comfort.
How much space do you really think we need between tables?
So if you're thinking about table spacing psychologically, you want, I'm going to say 16
inches between tables.
16 inches?
That's a whole restaurant.
Exactly.
Stephanie's research shows that 16 inches is optimal.
It's the Goldilocks distance.
We don't like to feel too isolated.
We also don't like to feel too crammed together.
But not all restaurants can afford to have that much space not generating revenue.
And especially in an expensive city like New York, customers have gotten used to as little
as six inches.
And that looks like pretty much what you have.
Okay.
In fact, I would argue in some of those tables is closer to four.
It's probably are.
Yeah, it's probably are.
Stephanie wants Ronnie to start thinking differently.
Remember, it's a real estate business.
Her big metric is spend per minute.
That's what essentially tells you how much you're getting in rent from your diners.
So she wants to make table 101 into higher end real estate.
More comfortable, a better psychological experience.
And she thinks this will pay off in higher check averages, more spending per person.
But it's stressful to Ronnie for good reason.
Can you give me some idea, Ronnie?
How much is one seat in this restaurant worth?
Ronnie does him quick math.
This much on dinner, this many turns of the table per week.
$6,000 a month, $72,000 a year.
Yeah.
So adding one seat is a big deal.
I guess, yeah.
But Stephanie's like, let me show you.
She gets to work with her tape measure.
I'm going to crawl around into the table.
Sure.
That's okay.
Yeah.
We'll see you in a few.
I'll put that out of your way, Stephanie.
I love my job.
In case you couldn't hear, as Stephanie crawled under the table, she was muttering, I love
my job.
I love my job.
Finally, she has all the measurements she needs.
They budget six inches between tables, not 16.
But Ronnie can see what's coming.
He might have to lose a precious seat.
And he starts kind of panicking, suggesting all this stuff to get that seat back.
He's like, wait, what if we did slightly smaller tables?
What if the tables were round?
Maybe if we had smaller chairs?
We are literally going inch by inch here to try to save one seat in this restaurant.
Absolutely.
Stephanie listens to these ideas.
She also holds firm.
Finally, they have it all drawn out to her specifications.
And the big moment comes.
They count up the seats.
So you've bought yourself one, two, three, four, five, six, seven seats.
Right now in this space, what's the maximum number of people you would sit here?
Eight.
Okay, so you've actually lost a seat.
Yeah.
But the question is, will you increase your revenue?
Sure.
Because these tables are more desirable.
Suddenly, this becomes a great deal.
A great spot.
Even though you've lost AC?
Yes, fine.
I'd be willing to bet that you probably will see your revenue go up.
You almost hear Ronnie trying to convince himself.
He's like, yes, yes, that will happen.
I'm sure of it.
So this is what they end up with.
A redesigned area for Table 101 with this new stub wall for privacy and anchoring, which
Stephanie's research has shown people really like.
The big high top table for eight becomes three small tables at a normal height and see
the total of seven.
So will Stephanie's redesign make Ronnie more money, even though he's lost one precious
seat?
Ronnie, are you in for this experiment?
I think so.
Ronnie is going to try Stephanie's vision for Table 101.
It's restaurant tour intuition versus cold hard data.
After the break, Ronnie does some construction and we get the results.
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Hey Sally.
Dan, hello.
It's so nice to see you again.
It's so nice to see you.
Here we are.
Here we are on the sidewalk in Queens, outside Adah, Indian, Cantine.
And it's been a couple months since we were last here.
It's winter now.
Right.
The seasons have not stopped.
Nope.
And we hear that Ronnie has made the changes.
The professor has definitely recommended.
So we're here to see him.
We walk in and right away.
It's really different.
I just guessed because the stub wall that we heard so much about is here.
Here it is.
I wonder if it is 42 inches tall as Stephanie wanted it to be.
And it's interesting.
The stub wall really does separate this table because we're actually Sally.
We're only like three feet away from this table and we're staring at them very awkwardly.
And clearly talking about their table.
And they don't seem to notice.
Yeah, no, I don't feel weird about it.
I feel like we can talk here all day.
The high top table 101 is God.
In its place are three tables at normal height.
The window is now revealed to the whole restaurant that are being blocked by the high table.
After a bit, Ronnie shows up.
Ronnie.
Hey.
Hey, good to see you.
He confirms that the stub wall is indeed exactly 42 inches tall.
Thank goodness.
And he says that wall has made a way bigger difference than he ever imagined.
So it was a huge learning experience for me as an operator as to just this kind of a subtle
difference how big of an impact it can have on the emotional state of your guess.
A few weeks later, we get the data.
Hi, Stephanie.
How are you?
Great, Ronnie.
How are you?
We got Ronnie into the studio with us and called up Stephanie.
Ronnie had had his team send Stephanie the data in advance.
Four weeks of customer spending at table 101 before the renovation and four weeks in that
area after the renovation.
She'd crunch the numbers.
She was the only one who had seen the final figures.
So, Sally, are we ready to hear the results?
Oh, boy, drum roll.
Oh, my God.
I'm so ready.
Where would you like to start?
Stephanie had calculated the check average, how much time people were spending at the tables,
and also the combination, the spend per minute.
Now, remember, even two or three bucks of extra spending per check can mean tens of
thousands of dollars per year.
And Ronnie has to cover the cost of losing that seat.
Stephanie looked at lunch and dinner separately.
At lunch, after the renovation, the check average went up.
Now, the time spent at tables also went up, but only by a bit.
So the key metric spending per minute didn't change enough to be statistically significant.
As in, this small change could have just been random chance.
But for dinner, the original check average was $36.80.
It went up to $45.90.
Whoa.
Wow.
Yeah.
So an increase of $9.10, and that is statistically significant.
It's a major.
Wow.
$9 per person.
Per person, just by changing the table.
That's huge.
At dinner, people were actually spending less time at the tables.
This was kind of surprising to us, but Ronnie had an explanation.
He now has three small tables in that area instead of the one big high top for eight.
So smaller groups, they eat quicker than bigger ones.
Plus, he found an unexpected benefit.
Flexibility.
He can put these three small tables into any combination.
Split them up, put them all together.
Before it was one big table, so it would either have a big party or sit empty.
Now the seats are full more often.
So higher check averages, less time at the tables.
This is looking good for the all-important spend per minute metric.
The one Stephanie cares the most about.
Is the spend per minute then Stephanie in the new arrangement for dinner?
The spend per minute went from 49.3 cents to 68.3 cents.
So for an increase of 19 cents.
Shit, she ain't Ronnie's buying lunch today.
That's right.
Depending on the table we said.
Wow.
That's a huge increase.
Yeah.
Very significant.
I shouldn't say very significant is significant.
At all three of these metrics for dinner, both the average check, the duration, and when
you put them together, the spend per minute, all of those were significant results.
She means statistically.
But it's also significant in the other sense, like meaningful.
If you assume those results hold over the course of the year, do some back-of-the-envelope
calculations, others likely to make more than enough to cover the cost of losing that
seat.
It'd be on pace to make an extra $18,000 per year.
Ronnie says that's basically the entire utility bill.
They did that just by making the tables more flexible and more comfortable.
Ronnie told us that's actually his big takeaway from this experiment.
We sometimes get caught up on counting every inch, but maybe the answer isn't just about
that extra table, but the quality of the experience that can make a significant impact.
He said he's drawing up plans for a new restaurant now, and this time, no high-top tables.
We're literally in the process right now for the upcoming restaurant.
We're deciding on all the seating.
I'm like, Ben Kets, no high-tops.
No commuter seats.
I need the drawings.
Send me the drawings.
I want to have a look.
So that was Ronnie's takeaway.
But Dan, you and I were more focused on what this means for us the next time we eat.
You're like, now I understand why I like to sit up against a wall, so I'm going to try
to do that even more often.
And that way, no one can attack me.
Really?
I am sort of like, I don't know if I want to be subtly incepted by design factors to be
spending more money on food.
I think it's too late for that.
That was Dan Pashman and Sally Helm from Back in early 2020.
A lot has obviously happened between then and now, namely the pandemic, but Ronnie didn't
just survive those early pandemic years.
He thrived partly because of what his experience with Adah taught him.
So I saw the act of not just the check average going up for that table, but in general, the
check average was able to go.
So the impact of that that I saw was beyond table 101.
Since 2021, Ronnie has opened four new restaurants.
In each time, he's applied Stephanie's ethos of design and customer psychology.
But we realized it's not about maximizing the numbers, it's about the quality.
However, there's a fine balance.
While part of that balance is making a unique and memorable experience for the diner, another
part of that balance is still just turn in the tables, moving people through the restaurant
efficiently.
One smart pivot Ronnie's made to turn tables faster at Demaca, one of those four new restaurants,
not serving tea.
We realized every tea after dessert is about 20 minutes.
If you add three turns, you're just spent an hour serving people tea.
Well, how much are you going to charge for the tea?
$67, right?
So if you start to do the math, it doesn't really add up, doesn't really actually make the
customer experience better, but you still lose the time.
Rather than that, we are focusing on what we're good at and serving that experience to
you.
Solving for the experience and creating a more cohesive environment at the restaurant,
it pays off.
And that was the lesson Ronnie learned, the true value of table 101.
Now that I've been through those kinds of learnings, heard someone like Stephanie,
been through all of these kind of updates and changes, they're not minor, they're significant.
And I think I want to carry that for the rest of my career.
Ada is still in Queens doing well.
And at some point Ronnie says he plans to open up another new bigger location in Manhattan.
As for Stephanie, she retired from Cornell, but still does consulting with lots of restaurants
and retailers.
She recently worked with a major league soccer team looking at their stadiums, food operations
and the variety of food items being sold and how adjusting the balance and placement of
those items might increase spending.
A lot has also happened in Dan Pashman's life since this episode came out.
He invented a pasta shape, cascadilly.
You may remember our episode about this.
So many people love that pasta shape that he decided to make a cookbook called Anything's
Possible.
You can follow his journey to making that cookbook on his podcast called The Sport Fold.
Today's episode was originally produced by Darian Woods and Alexi Horowitz-Gazi, James
Need and Sam Yellowhorst Kessler produced this update.
It was engineered by Isaac Rodriguez and Maggie Luthar and Alex Goldmark edited it.
He's now our executive producer.
I'm Nick Fountain.
This is NPR.
Thank you for listening.
In this country, some truths aren't self-evident.
In NPR's Black Stories Black Truths, a collection of stories as wide-ranging and real as the
people who tell them, we celebrate the black experience for all its soul and richness.
Search NPR Black Stories Black Truths wherever you get podcasts.
Spend time in any American city and you'll likely encounter someone with untreated psychosis.
Lost Patients is a new podcast examining our maze-like system for treating severe mental
illness, which eluses patients to an endless loop between the streets, jail and hospitals.
Does it have to be this way?
For the history, the reality and hopefully some solutions.
Listen to Lost Patients from KUOW and the Seattle Times, part of the NPR Network.
This is my voice.
I can tell you a lot about me.
I'm not changing it for anyone.
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on black experiences.
Search NPR Black Stories Black Truths wherever you get your podcasts.
