The State of Games Writing with Writer & Narrative Director Cara Ellison｜The AIAS Game Maker’s Notebook

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Hi, I'm Carrie Hsiao.

I'm the writer and narrative designer of Pacific Drive and I'm your host for this episode of The Game Maker's Notebook.

In this episode, we talk to Kara Ellison, who's also a writer and narrative designer.

She's worked on titles such as God of War Ragnarok Dreams, Void Bastards and last year's The Seance of Blake Manor and Ghost Town.

She's also written a book called In Bed with Games, A Year on the Couch with Game Developers.

We talked about Cara's path to games from retail to radio to development, and we discussed the global development scene and how she hopes to someday create a game that's based in Scottish culture.

We also talked about her work on her many, many projects, including her latest work with Fireproof Studios and how she navigated their first foray into games with story, and how she designed for horror in Ghost Town.

Enjoy the episode.

Welcome to The Game Maker's Notebook, a podcast featuring a series of in-depth one-on-one conversations between game makers, providing a thoughtful, intimate perspective on the business and craft of interactive entertainment.

The Game Maker's Notebook is presented by the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, a member-driven organization dedicated to the recognition and advancement of interactive entertainment.

Tara, welcome.

I'm so excited to be speaking with you here.

I think you're so absolutely prolific.

You've had like 20 careers or more, from your start in QA to journalism, to writing a book and now narrative design.

So I feel like we've got so much to talk about today.

And you're a fellow BAFTA Breakthrough Talent of this year, of which I'm a part.

So welcome to the gang.

And again, we have so much we can dig into today, but let's start at the beginning.

You started in the industry at Rockstar North as a QA tester.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So when I was I was doing like an English literature degree, which everyone knows is like a kind of shortcut to like what do I do with my life?

And what is happening to me?

And so I was thinking about careers and things at the time.

And I'd done a lot of work in like book publishing.

And like, I thought I wanted to be a book editor.

And I just realized like, I probably have to assassinate some old person to be able to get that job.

So I quickly kind of thought, well, I just really need to get a job after I graduate.

And at the time, obviously, I was in Edinburgh, which is where Rockstar North is.

And the majority of Well, at least at the time, but I think this is still true the majority of world building for GTA games are made there.

So it was quite a big studio at the time.

And they were looking for, you know, graduates who had a good level of English to be able to write bugs for them and do like software testing.

So I applied thinking like, ha ha ha, this will never happen.

But then I got an interview and then they asked me about Buddy Lights by GTA.

And I was like, I just like riding around and like blowing stuff up.

And they were like, did you ever play any of the main stories?

And I was like, not really.

I just like rode around and blew stuff up.

And so they were like well, she has a degree implied me and um, i guess, like that was my first real taste of like game development.

So yeah what, um?

What year was that?

And what was it like at the time at rockstar north?

Um, it was like gosh, so it must have been like 2007, is that when?

I think that must.

It must have been around.

So it was like just before the release of GTA four.

Um, I don't know if I have my dates, right.

But essentially, I was there for a year and a half doing testing there.

And so, um, yeah, I was around then.

And it was like really intense because it was like that last stretch before release um, and it was like it was really intense, there weren't that many women.

I remember back then and there's loads now.

I think it was just because, like I guess at the time it was still the remnants of like, this is quite a male industry, whereas I think it's actually dramatically changed in the amount of time.

Um, since then, where I see a lot more women.

There are like so many more women colleagues now that I have in the industry.

So back then it was like, you know, there weren't that many of us.

And then you'll see me in the like credits for the people of Liberty City because they needed, you know, like scratch voice, or like voice for pedestrians where, like they were screaming, or like you know like being sound fire and stuff like that.

And so you know there's like a one in five chance.

If you like, punch a woman on the street that I'll scream.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, it was a weird time where things were really that freewheeling, I think there.

So, yeah.

Oh, I love that.

Now I know, if I ever just feel like I want to punch you and hear what it sounds like, I'll just play GTA 4.

Yeah, that's exactly.

And then you have to punch someone five times in case like it's a different person in cycling.

So, yeah.

Good tip.

So you were there for, you know, a year and a half.

You're in the QA department, but you said a lot of world building was done at that studio.

So you with like, your English literature degree, did you try to like peek over the wall and see what they're doing there?

Or like contribute, or try to like you know you yourself, focus on the skills that you had a little bit more on the writing, you know, literature side.

Were you able to do that at all?

Yeah, I think.

Rupert Humphreys, I think he is like still there as a writer and he joined at that time.

So um, I remember sort of um, you know, collaborating with him on some of like the back and forth on like narrative um, but really it was just such an intense job um doing QA that um, I feel like I didn't really also feel qualified enough at that point.

Like.

I think something that's haunted me throughout my entire career is feeling that I felt qualified enough to be in the room.

So a lot of the time I was like well, I don't know if I can contribute because I don't know if I'm like good at this yet.

Right.

Or I have no reason to like say anything, even though obviously I had been writing on and off for most of my young life anyway, but mostly like weird poetry.

But I think you know, at the time I was like Oh, I should not really say anything, in case it's like you know, not okay?

But I probably could have, and they would have accepted those things.

It's just like Yeah, like I think it's one of those things where I always thought I could have said more, but I just didn't.

But yeah, like I think I also had a good relationship with a lot of the developers there because, you know, the artists had a lot of power there.

And so they could create like silly joke names for like shops and stuff. um so sometimes like I kind of joke around with the artists about like joke names for shops but like I don't actually know if like that many of my suggestions got in but like they're all like terrible puns on like terrible awful filthy things and like GTA does so um yeah so like I don't actually know if I contributed like that much apart from my voice so yeah I love that I think that's one of the best things about our industry and maybe worse things, but like everyone is so busy all the time.

There's so much stuff to do.

So I'm always encouraged when I hear about studios that don't strictly pigeonhole you, right?

It's not like you can't leave the QA room.

Oh my God, do not talk to the narrative people.

They don't need your suggestions, right?

The fact that you're able to talk to artists and joke with them and give them ideas.

You know whether or not it was the final idea.

I think that's a real strength of our industry and sounds like you got to do that, which is really great.

That's awesome.

So that was about 2007 to 8 or 9 or so, right?

What was the jump into journalism?

Did it come right after that?

So I went to live in Japan after that.

So when GTA 4 came out, I suddenly... obviously I was working on contract and I suddenly kind of felt like this weird crisis like oh no like what if I can't be in video games or like maybe I did also think like oh god like QA is definitely not what I want to do because it was really really hard it's actually quite like a big cognitive load to work in QA and I really respect people now because they work in QA but like Yeah, I just had this weird crisis of like, what am I going to do with my life?

And I applied to go on the JET program, which was an agreement between the UK and Japan to send graduates there to help with English teaching.

It's like an official government program.

So I went to live in Kagoshima in Japan for two years, two and a half-ish years, um and i started like kind of dabbling with games writing.

Then, like i was writing a little blog from my little place, right next to shrine um, in the middle of nowhere um, in kawashima, and um, i was just, you know, it was just a little outlet, you know, and i was trying to express myself and like it was part of like a little effort that me and my friends made to like make this little blog.

And Yeah, I just did it to like kind of amuse myself.

But I did meet.

So the Guardian Tokyo correspondent, Justin McCurry, was working there and he did a lecture for a lot of the JET programs people there.

And he was like, you know, you could just hit like pitch and ask for money for this stuff.

Like I would read it like you could just pitch.

And that's the first time it ever actually occurred to me that you could get money for writing about video games.

Like I'd never really thought about it before.

And so, yeah, like I guess that was like the start of me really properly thinking about it.

And then I moved back to the UK and the economy had collapsed and no one had any jobs.

And essentially I had to get a job in a game station which is kind of the, I think it's like in America, it's like a GameStop.

Is that what it's called?

Yeah, yeah.

In the UK, we had a game station.

It was kind of similar.

And I was working part-time in a game station and not really paying my rent after that.

So...

So yeah, and then after that I um weirdly got a job in um the Japanese uh consulate in Edinburgh and I worked there for a while and then I kept applying to the BBC, cause I really wanted to work at the BBC.

And then I finally got into work at the BBC.

Um, and I moved to London and that's where I kind of started in earnest trying to do journalism.

Because it was like kind of on the side of like all of my other kind of ambitions.

I was trying to just make enough money to like essentially pay my rent, which was always really hard.

Was the BBC job, was that gaming or like media specific or is it a different division?

It was working for BBC Radio 4.

And I was part of like the production assistant program, which they had there.

And so I worked on excess baggage and a bunch of other really interesting like shows.

I think Radio 4 has a really amazing sort of informative remit.

So I met lots of amazing people there.

It's kind of weird as well because, like a broadcasting house, you can be in the elevator with, you know, a member of, like Monty Python.

All of a sudden, like really like think of something to do with your hands because you're like freaked out, you know.

So it was kind of wild um, but yeah, like.

So I worked there for a while, but it was only like one day a week, which is not enough to pay my rent, and so it was pretty rough.

Um, so I really was.

That was a period of my life where I was like truly broke and always panicking about money.

Um, so I

I think I went along to, like a friend of a friend recommended like well, you should go to the pub because like there's loads of games writers um, who hang out there and maybe you could like chat to them or something um, and I bumped into like I think it was like Kieran Gillen um, because he was um, I think at the time had just quit Rock Hacker Shotgun, which was something he founded or co-founded, and he was like yeah, why don't you just like pitch John or someone with something you've written?

Um, and that's how I got like.

Some of my first jobs was just like they just said.

I think permission is a really big thing in your career.

You just need permission from someone who's done it to do it.

Um, so that, that permission was really important for me.

And then I just started writing my games like my first ever article was like a twine game interview.

Like I made the interview into a twine game and then they put it on the site.

So yeah.

That's amazing.

And did that lead you into kind of?

You have written for a flurry of outlets, kind of all the big names, but I saw PC Gamer Rock Paper Shotgun Paste Edge, Kotaku like Vice UK.

It's like all across the board.

Were you just like, you know, freelancing and pitching all of them? throughout the years?

Or like, you know, did you have more permanent engagements with any of them?

I think because I, I did end up having quite a lot of Twitter followers.

And I think that's just because I'm ridiculously verbose.

And like, you know, I've spoken and like, I don't know, like, I'm not so much now.

But at the time, I was like, very chatty i guess with everyone i had very stupid opinions very loudly and so lots of people followed me and i think that meant that a lot of editors would ask me to write about stuff so i was really lucky um and it's and it's also because they you know want people to click on it right so it's like i would have very loud opinions for money kind of deal um whether they were correct or not you know, the audience would certainly tell me.

Um but um, yeah.

So I think um yeah, like I would, I would pitch some things that I was really interested in doing, but a lot of the time they were asking me for like things that to review, that they knew I would like or be interested in.

That And which was about like sexuality and video games for a really long time.

That was my longest running thing that I did.

I did end up with a column at Eurogamer.

That was towards the end of my career, where I just had run out of steam because I was so, I think, burnt out from it.

But yes, actually was fairly long running.

And yeah, like I was just really interested in writing about things that no one else is really interested in.

Like I was interested in like the gaps, and most of the time that was stuff like where, you know, women were involved because, like at the time no one was really writing for, a few people were writing for, like you know, an audience of women or

Especially because they weren't covering topics that were like more kind of I think because our industry at the time was seen as like very kind of male dominated.

You know it was really important to cover, like Call of Duty, but not so much like the tiny free games that cost no money and were way more interesting.

Like I was much more interested in this like bizarre thing that someone had made in their time on the side of their job than something that costs like a billion dollars.

So I think that and I did get quite a bit of resentment from from um men in general for for having that bias

But, um, I, I also just didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

I guess maybe I was just like, I had a weird taste or something.

I don't know.

Yeah, I think you probably like, you know, you're fighting that fight.

This would be about 10, 15 years ago at this point, right?

Like you were fighting this fight that we're still fighting today for a lot of reasons.

But I think it's more people like see the difference in the industry now, right?

Like you said, when you started at Rockstar there weren't a lot of women.

You know same with me when I was at Riot, which was my start in the industry.

And now we see, like so many more, you certainly the minority when it comes to game development for women, but like you see the audience there, you see the people behind the work a lot more visibly now.

And you know we're still arguing about it.

But I like to hope that the uphill battle you faced back then when you were pitching stories that mattered, you know, and highlighted just kind of women, it's hopefully changed a bit but you know really different back then.

I mean, I used to say, I mean, this was like annoyed a lot of people at the time.

I used to say oh, like I mostly, I'm writing for an audience of women who are not represented by what is being said.

Like I'm much more interested in talking to an audience of like women here.

And like a lot of the time you wouldn't get like a lot of women commenting in the comments.

But I was just like I know they're there, you know, and they don't want to say anything, but I know they're there because i was there.

You know, like i was reading like pc zone.

You know pc zone is like this old um, it's kind of like you got pc gamer and pc zone and then they had this like weird rivalry back in the day like the um, the print version in the uk.

But um, like pc zone had charlie brooker and like he's kind of what i was aiming for when i was writing about stuff, because he's much less interested in um like being really serious about games and taking them really seriously and like wow, like this is such a like moving piece of you know, like he was much more about like um at a silly time with this game.

Here's a story about it kind of deal um, and maybe you'll like it too, kind of stuff.

So it wasn't like super serious and um, and I just like to have a good time when I sat down to write something um so yeah, I mean I I do think it's like it's kind of um.

I forgot what I was even saying here, but essentially I was very much about having a good time and inviting people who I normally aren't acknowledged in.

Yeah, I think that's awesome.

The moment, something you said earlier about.

You know people saying to you multiple times why don't you just pitch?

Why don't you do this?

It was permission to do something, but you kind of needed it from someone who was a little bit on the inside and knows that it's not this long process.

You don't need to get 10 degrees and you don't need to climb the ladder to do certain things, just do it.

This is a way that is a legit way to get work recognized, to get hired for the job.

That really resonates with me.

And I think that connects to what you're saying because you, writing about stories that matter to women, that women want to read about, that make up a huge part of this industry, in a way gives people permission to do the same, to write similar stories, to see that there's a readership out there.

It similarly gives you know, women the permission to be like oh, look at what Cara's writing about.

Like, that's interesting.

That's relevant to me.

That's now told a bunch of people that this is a relevant thing to talk and think about.

So I think it's like such a force multiplier in the industry to be able to do that type of stuff.

And, like you know, again banging that drum as you were 15 years ago, really set a lot of foundational conversation and work and shaping the industry like as it is today.

That's come a long way, I think.

Yeah, I mean I, I definitely think that we have come a long way, like and I do get a lot of people who um, like people still message me or email me or like bump into me at an event or sometimes I'll be like I'll be doing my regular day job stuff or going to a conference, and people come up to me and say like thank you so much for like writing this thing or, like you know, writing all that stuff back then because it gave me permission to be like really weird as well.

Like, I get a lot of that, like, appreciation of being, like, a complete nutbag.

Like you know everyone is just like you know they're like And my friend Jared Rosen.

He always tells me like you gave me permission to just be insane on the internet.

And it got me a job eventually because I was a writer at the time.

And I always was really touched by that, because I just feel like at the time I really, really wanted that.

Like I wanted to tell people you could do it too.

I'm not special there.

And there are so, there are so many of us who could be saying something and could have this space.

Right.

And like I think that's what I was really I was, and I think it's partly because I was really lonely at the time.

I was like unable to pay rent.

I didn't feel very supported like a lot of the time because I was on my own in London and really far away from my family in Scotland.

I felt a little bit alienated by like cultural elements in London.

I just never lived there or been there before.

And so it felt like when I was writing I was like sort of stretching across the internet to kind of hold someone's hand.

And that was like so valuable to like getting through the day for me.

So I think it was.

You know writing and art in general, I think is is something that's like that for me.

It's, that's what it's for it, and games too, you know, but like any form of like art, I think is is for that.

It's a, it's a big like shield against loneliness essentially, at least for me anyway.

Yeah that's, that's super beautiful, I think it's.

It's such a boon to like have this thing that connects us across the entire world but also makes you know, gives the weirdos a legit reason to exist in the industry and a need for them.

I think you know, as games writers creators, we're always looking to do something a little bit different, a little, you know, something that's new.

And a lot of that will come from the weirdos, right?

The stuff you didn't think of like.

Our industry is still young, but we have retreaded a lot of the same territory in terms of like, we know what sells and we know what the people want and what's going to move units.

But we're always looking for new things, new settings, new characters, new ideas.

And like, you know, where those come from, it's the weirdos said a fellow weirdo, right?

Like I am very much a champion of this.

And so I love that you have empowered, that you know people to do that and to really inject and infuse really interesting perspectives into the industry, not because of any need for, you know, like diversity for diversity's sake, but literally just for new ideas.

We really need them.

So I think that's rad.

I think it's like definitely about your own personal curiosity as well.

I think a lot of like detractors of DEI or whatever will constantly go on about how forced this is and stuff, and maybe in some situations it feels a little forced but, like what I would say is that, like you say, a lot of us are looking for like a new angle or like a like a different way of thinking about things, or like something that's like unusual, or maybe it's something that you personally haven't explored before.

And that was always the reason I was doing it.

I wasn't doing it for any kind of like weird remit, or I mean, maybe editors would commission me because I had a woman's perspective or whatever but um, And occasionally they would commission me because I had a Scottish perspective, you know like, just because like I personally was just like well, I'm personally curious about this thing.

So it would be.

It was always a little bit odd to have that sort of charge leveled at you, because you're just kind of like aren't you curious about the world around you?

Yeah.

I am like I was really baffled.

Yeah, it's a huge world.

OK, so of course, something I wanted to ask you about is your book, actually.

So in bed with games, you were, you know, self-described as homeless for a little bit.

You took to Patreon and said if I get a thousand dollars I will travel the world and write about game developers.

And you did.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah.

So it was kind of a silly thing thing that I guess I never thought that like it would get above a thousand dollars a month, and a thousand dollars was a lot to me back then.

So I kind of thought that that was like a huge amount of money, but it wasn't, because it was like a one-way flight is kind of quite a lot, and then I didn't have that much money left over to kind of live that month.

But um essentially, um I was on or staying with my friend Al Kennedy in Edinburgh and I I was like what am I going to do with my life?

I I don't really enjoy kind of writing for this like very structured freelance set of jobs anymore and like I feel like I want to do something else.

And so um, I was like why don't I just like write about like game developers?

Because a lot of um you know like film, um directors or like people who make tv or anyone else who's creative in media kind of often get gets like you know um media made about them or like why they're interested in things they are and like why they tell stories.

And i was like i think game developers are that interesting.

I think we're very interesting people and i wish that we could have something written about us and why we make these things, because I think we're very interesting and I'm like well, probably other people think that way too.

So um, I put it up on like January 1st or something.

It was like way past a thousand dollars by the time I like woke up the next morning.

It was probably a little tipsy and um yeah, so I had to like leave my house and give up my rent and i had to like yeah, become itinerant for a year and write an essay a month about like different people around the world.

I kind of took it easy in beginning and like went from london around europe and then to gdc and then from there like around um the world, and it went really well and um Yeah, I'm proud of it.

It's one of my, I think, best pieces of writing.

It really holds up.

It gives you that really nice snapshot of people in 2014 where they are.

You can also see that they're going to become something big, I think, in those pages.

And yeah, I'm very snobby about my previous writing because I think I'm a much better writer now than I was then.

Um, but like I, that's the one thing that I like open and like meet and go like she's a good writer.

That's cool.

Like, I'm glad this stands up because I'd be embarrassed if it didn't, you know, so yeah.

Yeah, you had.

You have such an amazing roster of people that you talked to and did essays with right.

So I see in this list Brendan Chung, who released Skin Deep this year and was on a previous episode of our podcast.

Nina Freeman, you know IGF winner and host.

I see Tim Rogers, Ojiro Fumoto, Carla Zamoja, like really just an insane list of people that have gone on and were already doing amazing things then

And I think something that really strikes me about this is that I've been lucky enough to travel for work and do talks at conferences around the world.

I would say now like it's not only important but it is essential as game developers, to get out of your immediate bubble.

You know, LA, you used to be an LA person, but I'm in LA now.

Really big.

We're really lucky to have so many studios and like industry ecosystems here.

But it really is different when you go to a country like Australia.

You're in Melbourne and you really see the extent of the governmental um like investment in the arts there right,

Like, I think, your approach as a developer.

When you live in a country with that type of government, media support is just different.

Um, you know, you're not, you have some assurance of money.

You definitely have assurance of continued healthcare, um, unlike America.

And it allows, it affords you the ability to, to approach your art and game making in a more relaxed way, in a freer way that doesn't just force you to chase profit because you will um you know not be able to afford to do your work anymore and you know you you've been experienced enough to travel a lot and live not only in like europe and america so like this rings really loudly to me that to to really represent all the different ways in which games are made across the world and the different support structures for each I mean, I think a part of the book was my personal frustration that we were really focused on rich American developers.

Or maybe not.

I mean, American developers aren't that rich.

Not anymore.

The big companies are extracting most of the profit, right?

But I would say that there is a little bit of a bias towards um thinking, for example, that you know, the whole of our western media is very um, like you have to have american accents and you have to have like a way that americans can understand what you're making.

And one of the things i was thinking about when i was traveling around was like oh, i wonder whether there is like a set of local devs who are making games just for them.

Right and there there are, like In Singapore and Malaysia.

Know, when i went there, like there's like this really nice community there um, which is probably much, much bigger now, which makes games specifically for their own tastes, and like i think that's really cool and obviously they put it on steam as well, and it's like you know, games are like a global market as well, but like there's a lot of local culture that goes into these things.

And it made me a little frustrated to like kind of think about, you know, the fact that gdc, for example, is always in san francisco.

It felt a little like, you know, closed off.

And I was like I wonder what everyone else is making.

You know, like wonder what they're thinking when they make something.

And yeah, like I just saw today, like Berlin in particular, they're like and the German government are like injecting like so much more money into supporting game development there.

Scotland is on its way to like presenting a way to support a massive game developer game cluster here and hopefully one day we'll have like really robust video game funding.

So like what you're saying is like really kind of making me think back to like how frustrating it was to see a lot of like especially journalism and coverage of games be really attracted towards American games, when actually some wild cool stuff was coming out of Australia back then Europe, a lot of other much smaller countries were producing incredible things.

Yeah, absolutely.

I really want to talk, you know.

I know a really big issue that's near and dear to your heart is reinvesting back into the British game industry.

Right,

You left Los Angeles somewhat recently to do that.

Maybe we talk about that a little bit now.

So we're seeing that across the entire world we see a new studio closing or having layoffs every other week.

And I feel like Britain has been hit especially hard, right?

We had PlayStation London closing two years ago, Avalanche Liverpool, Cliffhanger Games, Ubisoft UK.

The list kind of goes on.

I guess, what is it like these days to be in that ecosystem with a lot of these closures?

It's really hard, because I think one of the most amazing things that happened when I joined Rockstar North is that you start to realize that games have always been here.

Like when I was very young, I assumed all games were made in either America or Japan.

And actually without my knowledge.

Just down the road from me um, lemmings was being made right, and i was playing lemmings on like my nes, and it had been made in scotland, and so it was just a lack of knowledge about, like you know, who was there and and what they were doing.

And as soon as i joined rockstar north i realized like a bunch of people who made lemmings still work here right, and so Scotland's game development community was a lot bigger than I thought it was.

And that's partly because in Dundee, there was a really big history of jute mills.

And jute mills required very fine finger work and um and like very kind of fine motor skills, and a lot of women were um, like you know, they were weavers and they were like working these jute mills and essentially what happened over time was obviously, technology moved on and so there was the jute mills closed down and what they used the jute mills stuff for, and like the jutes the skills of those people for, was then like watchmaking.

So then think, Timex had like a big kind of factory here and those were women, and then they were like wait, like let's stop making watches and start making computers.

So then all the women were making computers and then all of a sudden computers started turning up in people's houses even though they weren't supposed to be there and like partly I think the Scottish games industry is has that to thank where you know it's like oh, someone's computer fell off the back of the lorry.

Well okay, i guess like we'll just forget about it.

But actually it was basically creating what we call like bedroom coders in the uk, which is essentially people who learn to code on stolen software, and then started making their own video games and selling them on tapes and like physical media.

They would literally drive to a shop and then sell to someone And yeah, like that whole history is going to be, If not lost, a little eroded by the way the industry currently works.

And I'm really afraid of it happening.

I think we have to save a lot of our experience and knowledge.

I do see a lot of our knowledge being lost as people are pushed out of the games industry for less jobs, less opportunities and also less investment.

A lot of it's going towards AI and lots of other things apart from just your middle-of-the-road video game.

And so...

I think that's a real shame, because I really want to kind of maintain that like knowledge and pass it on myself.

So I started like volunteering to kind of do lots more lectures and things at Abertay University here in Dundee.

So that's what I've been doing.

I've just been like spending time thinking about how am I going to pass this on?

I'm like, what can I do, you know?

Yeah.

Do you feel like you know, are you seeing a huge exodus still, or is it kind of stagnation of you know?

The company's closed but no one has anywhere to go?

Like you know are there.

Is there a glimmer of hope that you see that like maybe things can be restarted and kind of regather that handiwork, that really long history of invention there?

Or you haven't seen it yet.

I haven't seen much movement yet.

I do think that um, you know, obviously people are trying on like a lot.

There are lots of like initiatives to try to persuade the government to like support us more uh, but I don't know how much things are going to move specifically in the UK.

Um so I'm not sure is the answer, and right now I just think that we need to have a little bit more financial support and investment.

Essentially,

We generally don't get much notice in the UK, simply because creative industries at large are being kind of underrated at the moment, for I don't know why.

Simply because the only reason I get up in the morning is because I want to watch, like you know, the newest episode of Slow Horses or something you know, something that like, really makes me excited.

Because like, when the weather is bad outside in the UK, what else are you going to do?

Right?

So yeah, so I don't know, I personally don't understand why people don't value creativity.

I think they, especially governments should, you know?

Yeah yeah, I think there is no lack of want for more and more content right, i feel like the content hose is really a fire hose these days, but how it's going to continue being made is the question, um.

And i think it's so interesting talking to you about this because it made me immediately think about um.

You know, marvel here used to be filmed in atlanta, for you know, they had big, big studio lots.

They're filmed every of their marvel phase one two whatever, um in atlanta.

And then it moved to the uk right, so everybody who had bought houses there, all the crafts people, lost their jobs and we're like oh okay well, you know it's really bad for us, but at least like it's.

It's now happening in the uk and it infused all this money there.

But you know, i feel like i heard maybe that's since left there too, or just there's no productions, and so i think we're all in this kind of sinkhole together waiting, um.

I think it is like it's kind of like you know how gentrification works, where you know like people move to like a you know uh uh, a neighborhood that, like is cheap to live in because they want to I don't know they're an artist and then slowly, you know, it becomes beautiful, but then the rich people want to come in and like, consume the art.

And so you get this like horrible cycle of capitalism where that happens.

And that's what that really reminds me of is essentially, you know, game development and like virtual production and all that kind of stuff is like you know they want it to be cheaper and cheaper.

So they're moving around the world and just, and it's uprooting everyone and all of that experience and skill is lost each time they do it um until, like you know, it's a lot.

Like you know, every time there's a round of layoffs that institutional knowledge is lost um, the way you made the previous game is gone, and now it takes, you know, four more years than it should to be able to produce a video game.

Right, and it's like a waste of money.

But like they don't see it as that because it's like this various strict structure, when actually, you know, I think there's a lot said about, you know, the way the Japanese companies operate, for example, where they don't do a lot of these layoffs because it's government regulated.

But I do think that they save money from actually retaining a lot of the institutional knowledge.

And I do think that that is actually making a job at Nintendo, for example, a bit more stable and a bit more able to produce something where the new Zelda is an immersive sim.

And it didn't cost them crazy amounts of money to make an immersive sim, because it's not that much more of a stretch from what they were doing before.

Right.

So I don't know, like, I mean, that's all hyperbole.

I'm sure it's very difficult to make.

But at the same time, I do think there's a benefit to actually retaining your staff.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It really tickles me to look at all of the you know Nintendo games and just be like, oh yeah, this person who worked on the original is still there.

You know, people on the original Mario Kart team still on it.

And you can see that lineage and That's a perfect example of you know.

Those games sell so well because they're continuing to innovate, but they know exactly what they did before.

Really good example there.

I do want to jump us to kind of the meat of your current work, which is all of your narrative design and writing work that you've been doing.

Starting with, I guess, like, how did you transition into that from journalism?

So I had always been kind of dabbling in interactive fiction.

I think I actually started making interactive fiction when I was still at university, like I was employed by an educational company to write for like I don't know if you have these in America, but they're these kind of like little toys with like three buttons on it and a little speaker and like it'll ask you like to do a math problem to get the next part of the story and sometimes you can choose like what your action from the three buttons to choose like what you want to do next.

Like it's a kind of like choose your own adventure kind of audio thing, but it's amazing.

Yeah.

I don't know if we have that.

That sounds great.

Yeah.

It's a little weird.

Um, but we had that in the UK.

Um, it was often like used in the classrooms and stuff to kind of um, you know, shore up like math skills and stuff.

Um, and I've written one of those before um, Um and then yeah, like I'd really got into like um, twine or in the time of like the rise of like twine games and stuff and like the DIY stuff that was going on.

Um, and I just was really interested in interactive fiction as a medium, simply because um, I had grown up on it.

So like my dad stole a BBC micro from his work and that lived in my room.

Cause my room at the time was the biggest.

I always wanted to talk to the computer.

So I learned to read so I could like type, you know, parser adventures.

Um, so it always had that like kind of interest in me.

Um, and yeah, like I'd start making like twine beams and stuff.

I made a game called sacrilege and it got into like the New York times cause.

Laura Hudson wrote about it.

And, um, it was very popular at the time cause it was just like very neon and like crazy.

Um, And, yeah, like Harvey Smith, who makes Dishonored or made Dishonored 1 and 2.

And, you know, he's famous for Deus Ex and like he's a really cool immersive sim designer.

He was like, oh, like, I love that game.

You should come work for me.

Can you come do work contract for like a couple months?

So that's what I did for Dishonored 2.

And I kind of learned that actually maybe this was a good niche for me because I'm using all of my skills.

I'm writing for a game, a medium I know really well, and I'm applying a lot of my learned skills in it.

Interactive fiction taught me a lot about like the way that you might structure for non-linear work, so it really met all of my skills and like it was really fulfilling.

And then, once you get a credit on Dishonored 2, people ask you all the time to work on games.

I guess, and I guess I was like the beginning of it, I think, and um, I was like all of a sudden I was like why haven't I been doing this like all my life?

It felt like so correct.

And so I guess I started off as a writer.

And then I've kind of moved over from being like a pure writer into like probably like 60 to 70 narrative design, which is much more like structural work, making sure that all the elements come towards telling a story rather than just writing and pure writing.

Um, and so, yeah, like I, I mostly do narrative design now.

Um yeah, like my, my game, like I did like Boyd Bastards, which was like a full suite of like everything.

It was like narrative design and writing.

I'm like, um, I wrote the comics for it and, um, did the world building.

So that was like a really big, interesting job.

Um, I worked on Shadow of the Tomb Raider for awhile, but I got special thanks because I left early.

Um i um, what else did i do?

Um, i think like i worked on, i worked on dreams, which was a really interesting job, because dreams is like completely like that's a game where you make games inside of it um, and so that was really unusual and medium, molecular and incredible team um, so it's really mind-bendingly cool to work for them.

Um, How did that work for what you were doing?

You know, like where you were building the building blocks for this platform.

But, you know, how did narrative design and maybe writing come into play for Dreams?

So a lot of it was actually figuring out how we were going to tell people what they could make with Dreams.

And so we were trying to construct a campaign, start to finish, like a kind of story that would demonstrate to people how wild this tool was that they could use.

And when I got there, there was this idea that we could have three different genres of video game in one, and then that would tell people how crazy this tool was.

So it was like a platformer with little robots.

Um, there was like a point and click adventure, and then there was more like kind of like a traditional brawler, beat-em-up style um strand, and they were like Cara, can you put all three together and make a story from it?

And it was like crazy oh my god, I don't know how to do that right.

And so I basically, in discussion with the team, they brought up lots of things they were interested in seeing, and so I made the story about, like how there's this guy he's having a dream and he dreams in games, and so you can knit them together, because you know how dreams are kind of like um, a bit odd anyways.

So like the conceit of it was that you could kind of hop between these different kind of ideas they wouldn't be too nuts and then at the end they would all kind of combine into one mad thing um, And so yeah, like it worked out really well.

I think just having a really simplistic narrative that kind of fed through all of them made it so that the complexity of the actual playing of each strand of the game was easier.

So I think my job there was to make it simpler rather than more complicated um, although I'm sure that you know that like actually, and most of the time that that is part of our job is to make things seem simple, or have a simpler kind of Occam's razor idea that makes everyone understand what it is they're looking at on the development side, and I think that's what I was doing there, and then I also like wrote the first hour um, you know, the dream queen tells you how to like make things the philosophy of the dreams world, and like That was Sophie Alkeneder, who's like she's an incredible, like I think she's like won all of the awards for like she's an incredible actress.

And at the time she was in, like, I think she was in Cleopatra with Ralph Fiennes.

Okay.

Yeah, it was crazy.

Wow.

She's an incredible person, by the way, and amazing to direct.

Like, directing her was, like, an amazing privilege.

But she did an amazing job of being the dream queen, essentially explaining that first hour of how you make things and how you make games was like kind of an inspiring hour, right.

Where you're trying to like give creativity to someone else.

And it's really wonderful to write.

Yeah, what a perfect encapsulation of like, the job of a narrative designer.

As you come into this project, they're like you know write the tutorial and make it beautiful and inspiring and make players really want to engage, but also teach them everything in one hour.

And then also can you mash together these, all these disconnected things into one thing and make it make sense and interesting, right?

Like.

I think you know there's a lot of ways to answer the question of like.

What do you do as a narrative designer and what is the role?

And it's like, I don't know, they give you a jumble of toys, and you got to make sense of it all.

And yeah, I think a lot of people who review dreams and especially the campaign, didn't really get.

They didn't really get it.

And they didn't also think very much of it.

They didn't think it was like a huge feat of storytelling whatever, but it was for me because I was like I had to knit these really difficult things together.

But we got so many responses online and to the company about like how moved a lot of people were by the stories, like like I thought like oh man, like this is one that's gonna like hit the games journalists, they're gonna be so into it and they didn't like it at all and everyone who actually played it were the people who were the most vocal about it.

And I thought like that difference of experience was so interesting, because i think i can never tell what's going to be hit.

When i make anything, like i don't know if it's going to be received amazing or like terrible, like it's.

It's so hard to know.

Um, and that's the one that i thought would be.

The other way around, i thought everyone was going to hate the story, who played it, but all the journalists were like oh, this is so interesting, like loads of different genres and blah blah, and like no, they just didn't care.

But i think the um And the players were so stoked about that story.

So that's the cooler part of it, I think.

Yeah, that continues to surprise me to this day, right?

You're a day out from launch and you're like, this could go any way and I have no idea.

I've become blind to the whole process.

And what a pure space of possibility that is.

Especially if you don't lose your personal creativity and energy and momentum to sustain yourself through that.

Completely unknown period, right?

For as long as it takes to make a game.

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That's awesome.

Like, what an interesting time.

So that jumps me to kind of your big releases of the last year being 2025.

I know you advised on Seance of Blake Manor, which I want to talk a little bit about because I fell in love with that game this past year.

And then also Ghost Town, for which you know you got your BAFTA breakthrough honor for, and you all won awards.

Game of the Year at the TIGA Awards and Best AR VR Game at Unity.

So really kind of big year of releases for you.

And I guess, yeah, let's start with Seance of Blake Manor.

So you were a consultant on that project.

What did that entail?

So they sent me a build and they were, like we really want you to like essentially, play through like this earlier build and tell us, like you know where you get stuck, what your understanding is of all of this.

Like you know basically Chris, like they gave us this, gave me a series of like really incisive questions about like what, what they wanted to know, because i think, like in the beginning, you know that like little machine that's in the lobby that tells like that kind of like um, kind of kind of styron or whatever.

Yeah um essentially, that wasn't there in the earlier builds and i think it's because, like they realized from what we were all saying um, in the early process that um, people didn't really understand that they could free the guests from a fate right?

And so they really wanted to like telegraph that really hard because, like a lot of the time when I was playing through it, I'd get right through to the end and not have even had time or realized that I could like talk to people into, talk people out of going to the seance, right.

And so that's like one of the objectives.

And so I give this early feedback where I was like, not, I'm not sure about this and this and this.

And then the other thing that I thought was really interesting controversial choice was that choice of time.

And like wasting.

You can waste time talking to like some people and then just not managed to get to other people.

And, you know, you're always conscious of like, time is ticking away.

And I was like this is like such a difficult mechanic to think about for me, because You know, there are a lot of people who play detective games who are completionists or like perfectionists, or like they really want to explore every option before they make a choice on something.

And being constrained by that particular structure was a really risky choice I felt like they were making.

And I was like, if you're going to make that choice, you need to be a lot more clear about these other things.

And so it was really amazing to be involved in that, because I feel like what they ended up with is so incredibly cool.

I think it's such a better game for them, having a lot of playtesting and a lot of time just in that tweaking stage.

And I think that is so valuable to think about for me, because a lot of people will not give, in particular will not give narrative iteration time.

Like we need iteration time as much as everyone else.

And I think there's a tendency to think oh, the narrative designer or writer is going to come in, do one draft and it's done because they know what it's going to be.

And it's like, no, no, no, no.

We don't know if it's hitting our audience either.

We need to test if people understand what we need them to understand, right?

And I thought that was like such a valuable relationship with the Blake Banner folks because I feel like they really nailed that game harder than if they hadn't done that.

They could have just put it out and just been like well, if you don't get everyone, you don't get half the narrative, you know.

So I thought that was so cool of them.

Yeah, I think, having come in kind of blind to that game, all I knew of it was that it was an information game.

So I came in and playing it, the release version, everything was immediately clear.

You're given a few days to solve this disappearance and maybe stop a seance and help a bunch of people.

But, as you said, the number of people you help really just depends on like, how completionist you are.

And it was, you know, immediately clear to me.

I was blown away by how every character's story has a arc, you know, like perfect writer thing of, just like you have your motivation, you have the challenge and you have the resolution.

If you achieve that for a character,

And there are like, how many characters?

There's like at least 20 or so characters, right?

And they all have their personalities, they all interlink and it is so clear and well done.

So I think what you're saying about the iteration on the narrative time really worked.

I think the choice to make every action you take rip away one minute of your very limited time was smart and clear and actually well paced, because I knew this thing was ticking down but it did not feel unfair.

Like I did not feel like I was going to be punished and have to replay this game three times to really get as much as I wanted out of it.

So I think what you said about the iteration time was really successful with that team.

I think your point about really being aware of or working with a team that understands that narrative design work just like regular design work, where we accept that it needs a lot of iteration time, narrative really needs as much effort.

And what a beautiful example of that.

Yeah, for sure.

And the other really beautiful thing about that game is that it goes so deep into Irish history.

And it seems like also quite a personal thing for the at least some of the developers on that game, and like I'm so envious because there's so little availability to do that in Scotland or for Scottish history.

Like there's not too much funding going on here and like funding we do get, it's for extremely small very, very low budget games.

And i, you know, my greatest desire one day would be to like make a game that is really, really about scotland in a way that's like almost like double, a kind of um vibes, so um.

For me i would love to dig into a similar thing in scotland, where it's like let's look at this history of like colonialism or let's look at this like you know, like era of our history, that's like not pleasant.

Or let's look into, like, all of the things that, like, the Empire did.

And really, like, kind of dig into, like, some of that, like, ways in which, like, Scottish people see themselves because of those things, you know.

I'm like yeah, like I think that particular game is really really deeply interested in kind of excavating that part of Ireland which

I just thought it was like really valuable, especially because I'm sure loads of people around the world now know more about Ireland because of that game.

Oh, yeah.

I loved it.

I'm someone who, you know, absolutely resists reading in games if I don't have to and learning, like you know, academically about subjects from games.

But I really, you know you are forced to interact with so much of Irish folklore and its history, of its own people and its gods.

And you have to remember them because it's part of the puzzles.

And it really snuck up on me in a way where I was like I played that game and I was like dang, I want to visit Ireland now.

You know, it really seeped into me in a really cool way.

And I think that you know, some of the most impressive games over our recent history have been, as you say, like these games really steeped in a specific area of a culture, right?

So for Pacific drive we were at the Pacific Northwest and you could feel the vibe and the music and the weather that all comes into that.

You know Blake Manor doing 1897 Ireland to, you know Norco being kind of in the South.

Like we are seeing these beautiful, deeply regional games that have a lot to say and come from such a rich history.

And you know I would.

I think a Scottish one is, you know, for you especially like way overdue.

Um, that could be so amazing.

One day, you know, Rich will contact me and say but I think that like yeah, it's important to me because of, you know, not like previous, like when we were discussing like, preservation and like ways of thinking about, like you know, preserving skills.

It's also like thinking about how, how can I bring the local to a global stage, and thinking about ways in which Scottish developers really have.

You know, like what's really funny is if you go to like Naughty Dog and like throw a stone, you'll hit a Scottish developer.

It's like we're all over the place but we can't stay in Scotland because there's not enough jobs for us.

And there's that's partly, you know, a problem for a lot of this talent that comes out of Abertay, because they are all Scots and, like you know, they really want to stay in Scotland but they can't because they have to go to America or Japan.

And like how can we preserve, like some of our own, like homegrown and like start to produce stuff that is Scottish for global market?

Like, I think that's really interesting.

I would like to help with that, but I don't really know how.

Like you know, it'd be cool if it could happen.

Yeah.

I'm excited for you to raise that banner and like call, call all your fellow, like Scottish folk and wherever they're embedded in the industry, and come back and like just form this incredible super group right.

I'm still reeling from the fact that, like Lemmings, one of my favorite childhood games was made there.

So I think you'll have, you know, a lot of excitement for that once the funding comes for it.

And lastly, you know, so let's talk about Ghost Town.

Honestly, amazing project.

It's made by Fireproof Studios, a UK indie games studio, and they've made the Room game series, which I love.

I think you know for me they're known for these games that are these beautiful mechanical, like puzzle box slash, escape room games.

And I played through the first three and I love them.

So when I like heard about Ghost Town, I was like, oh wait, like they have this incredible lineage and expertise in making these wonderful games.

And now they're going to add, you know, a sorely needed story and narrative to it.

And it came together so well.

It was my first VR experience with a real story.

And it really blew me away.

Standing there in the room with those cut scenes as the characters are looking you in the eye and you're hearing the sound and the space around you really, I don't know sold VR to me in a way that had not like I had not really experienced before.

So what was it like?

You know what was the difference for you doing narrative design and writing for a VR game.

I mean, it wasn't so different from the, you know, the regular kind of adventure game experience.

But I think what was different was that the devs over at fireproof had never really done a story type of game before, so it was almost like i was kind of guiding them along because like, although they're like incredibly accomplished, they were like a little bit, i think, nervous about approaching story.

So it was kind of like a you know, um.

It's almost kind of like you know like um, we're riding bikes alongside each other and kind of supporting each other because like, there's this kind of vibe of like i don't know if i know what i'm doing, but i'm kind of like no, you do know what you're doing.

And a surprising amount of my like narrative consultancy these days is i'm advising really, really accomplished amazing um, game makers with making your first story based thing or like solving story problems, simply because I guess they've got to a place where they want to attempt a story but they've never really done one before.

And so that's what it was with Fireproof is that I worked with Mark a lot on like a story that he wanted to tell and essentially tried to not only write it in a way that is lifelike and is a way that people speak, but also try to invest them with really distinct personalities and also try to kind of pull in some of that fireproof vibe, that stuff about the room that you really like I think is the atmosphere.

And obviously the puzzles are like a really big part of it, but like they know how to make puzzles.

I don't have to do anything with that.

What I have to do is like use that atmosphere to really get people invested.

Right.

So really what my job was was was to kind of use that trademark fireproof atmosphere to kind of really develop your feeling of mystery and of like wonder and like that feeling of tension you always get in the room games.

It's kind of effortless for them and that's actually i think one of the hardest things to do in games is to make the atmosphere happen, and they do it super easily.

So really i was trying to underwrite, i was trying to constantly underwrite the game because the atmosphere was doing all of the work.

Um, And I think we are writers like a tendency to just constantly write dialogue.

And it's like this particular job was, like I need to like shut up so developers can make this thing work.

Right.

And so it was partly that it's like, how can I make this smaller?

How can I make this more concise and then still have it be characterful, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

There are some incredibly smart, you know, scoping choices about the story being like you're a ghost hunter, slash exorcist.

And so you're interacting with ghosts, right?

So half the time you see this essentially a cut scene play out in front of you and then the characters disappear and you don't have to worry about like walking into them or doing weird technical stuff around them, because they literally disappear.

They're ghosts.

You can't touch them.

Beautiful, beautiful scoping.

But what are some of the ways in which, like you know, you incorporated the atmosphere in unique ways?

Like, obviously you're talking to ghosts and you know they have all these troubles but, like you know, did you?

Were there any like great tricks that you discovered when you know either doing writing or narrative?

Designing this title.

Um, some tricks like, well, I really enjoyed making the lighthouse level.

Um, I think that was my favorite one to do because um, We had thought about it from the point of view of like well, if you're in VR, going up the elevator would be a cool experience, right.

And the idea was to try and make this guy have a certain kind of predicament and you would figure out what that was as you got higher and like deeper into the story.

You'd figure more about, like what this ghost's problems are and how to figure it out.

And, like, the cooler part is, like, we thought about, like, ways in which the ghost is experiencing his own nightmare, essentially.

And like this ghost, if you're a lighthouse keeper, your probable worst nightmare is obviously um, the light goes out, there's like a ship right there and you're like not doing your job and and everyone loses their life, right.

And so we were like why don't we make it that like this is the crisis, right?

And like i looked up um, like mayday protocols for ships during that era, like some of us narrative designers have to do the weirdest google search to um, and i looked it all up and i was like wow okay, this is like the protocol that they would use and like this is how.

And then i was okay, it would be so spooky and creepy if that just repeat that radio call, just repeat it over and over.

You know that kind of stuff.

And so i was thinking about ways in which, like you know, a lot of horror techniques were actually really really useful, like for movies, were useful for us there, where it's like things that are repeated and um echoes or like whispers, things that like create a lot more atmosphere, but like also stuff that like is really obvious, like lights turning off or flickering or um, ways in which you can like startle the player, like there's a noise or something falls over, like i think when you first go into the lighthouse, something falls over and maybe a light goes out or something right, um.

But yeah, I was really careful to say to everyone like, with this stuff, like please don't go overboard, because part of horror is like not using all of the tricks in the book and not like just like spaffing them all at once.

Like you've really got to like keep them like back so that like they surprise people or that they you know it's when they least expect it.

I always remember like that.

Resident Evil remake when you run down that corridor with the like the zombies tapping on the like blah and then you're like oh that's definitely the second time I come through here they're gonna smash the glass or whatever and then you're always thinking that from then on right and then maybe like the 50th time you're running down there they smash like no right and so I think what I was learning was basically you've got to keep something in the tank um because otherwise it just is too much and it's like too overwhelming it doesn't have that big impact so i feel like the thing with that game is just restraint like a lot of it is restraints like it's really like keeping those tools there and using that atmosphere to your advantage because really a lot of it is just creating a mood and you can use all of narrative design to like create a mood basically Yeah.

How did you, like you know, do you have, now that you've worked on this game, kind of a how do you call it like a roadmap or a?

You know the meter for horror, right?

You said you want to really like Have it be restrained, but you want to have your big moments, but you don't want to spend them all the time.

You know, is it kind of do you have a version of, you know, like a three act structure?

We know our rising conflicts and we know it gets higher and higher.

Is there kind of an analog for horror in terms of when you can kind of like ratchet it up or down or how long you can keep someone in this heightened state?

You can't kind of keep them in that heightened state forever.

But the real tool that is the most valuable for horror is audio.

It's always audio.

I mean.

Visuals obviously work for a lot, but I always think about audio because I forget what it's called.

But there's a.

There's a particular audio trick you can use.

I think it's often used in like John Carpenter movies and stuff, where it's essentially like a rising tone.

That's always rising because it's like circular.

And that particular pattern of writing.

You know, like they often use like orchestra strings to do it, but essentially it makes people feel really uneasy, really easily, like it's such a like every horror person will know it because it's essentially like such a lazy trick, but I think it's such a powerful kind of tool for demonstrating how powerful audio can be.

Like you can make someone feel very unsettled with not that much audio, and so I think the trick is to think about how you're going to use silence and noise.

Silence when employed in video games is so, so dramatic, mainly because we're used to video games being noisy all the time.

But like silence is eerie in a video game.

And the longer you can make someone feel uneasy in a horror game, the better.

So I feel like that's really important to think about is like, If you want something to be scary, how are you using that silence and noise?

But yeah.

So when you look at a three act structure in horror, first of all you're trying to set a tone.

And then, second of all, you're trying to put things in that space that gradually make you feel even worse.

So, like you know, I guess I guess in Resident Evil it's like they'll be like a fan of that has like a light shone on it at a particular angle where you can see the shadow moving.

And like every time you go in the room and you think something's there.

Right.

But there's nothing there.

And you're like, oh, and then your brain is like, it's nothing.

Right.

And then, like you might walk forward and you know every like six step, there's like a creek on the floor.

So basically, you're using these small things to like keep going with this tension and And it's just very subtle

And yeah, like a lot of it is audio and visual.

And then you might put like a diary or some you know itchy tasty diary or something, somewhere in the room.

And then you're getting like a little bit of narrative beat where it's like oh, like someone died here or someone's underneath the floorboards, or there's a zombie here.

Right.

And you're basically just constantly providing more and more doubt that you are safe in this area.

Um, and then like, the last trick is like obviously like the payoff, so you'll want something dramatic to happen.

It'll be like this zombie comes out from behind the bathroom curtain, or it'll be like someone crashes through a window and then that that's.

There's that like scream, and then you get really satisfied and then you're like oh, that was an amazing experience, because you get that like heightened, like little blip of like you know, adrenaline going and And that's kind of like a three act structure in itself where you've got like a beginning of like I wonder if anything's here.

And then a steady, like rising kind of a feeling of like a cumulative I don't know tension, I guess, until there's a payoff.

So like, I think how it works.

Yeah.

I think I think it was so well balanced in ghost town because you know, I actually don't play a lot of horror games for exactly the reason you mentioned.

I bounced off at resident evil 2 i was like never again, like this is too much for me um, but i think it's.

You know, in in vr it was so interesting because you are standing in the room, right.

So i feel like the things that you know, maybe horror games have really taken on.

In games like there's still a distance right, resident evil is really scary, but you're still a distance from your screen And you're usually most of the time you're looking at a character in third person.

And that's like, again, so scary, but you are not feeling harm.

You're just, you're just anticipating you being scared.

Nothing's going to harm you.

In ghost town.

I was like, man, I am standing right in this room.

The ghost is right there.

Like, and you know, they can do the cheap tricks of, the knife coming at you or something.

And I was like, there's nothing I can do because I know it's just going to come at me.

So I think it was just so expertly balanced and maybe because they weren't trying to go for a whole slasher VR situation.

And so I appreciated that.

But I think it was really well done, with all the tension and the music and the the scenery happening around you.

Like, you know, it's a scary situation.

You're looking at ghosts, but ultimately it's a very emotional story, right?

It's, like you said, the lighthouse keeper.

He's dealing with his own failures because he, you know he messed up and that's his grief and pain and you know his anger, but it's not, you know, directed at you in a way.

Yeah.

I mean.

So one thing that we discussed constantly during the development of this game was, like People like you who are like not really here for the horror,

They're here for the puzzles and the experience.

Right.

They want a story, but they don't want to be jump scared.

And so one thing that we were like, we made this rule, no jump scares.

And also we were like, we want to invite people into this world.

We don't want to be like scaring them.

And also, like you know, like the room has that horror vibe, feel like tension and apprehension, but nothing happens.

And they were like we want to reassure people.

They're going to get that same experience here.

So one of the things the choices i made was well, if that's the case and we don't want people to be scared and we're not doing jump scares then we have this main character whose voice is really reassured.

They, this is their job.

They do it all the time.

They're not surprised there's a ghost here.

They know exactly what to do.

They're not panicking.

They might be like a little emotional cause they're trying to find their.

You know she's trying to find her brother cause he's gone missing, but like she's not like in pieces ever.

Right.

And she's not like freaked out by anything really.

And I'm like I, if I write her this way, it's actually going to make the player feel like everything's fine.

Right.

And I feel like it was really successful, because you do get quite a lot of players who are like no actually, really I'm scared of horror games.

But this was fine.

Like, I started playing the Half-Life VR game, Half-Life Alyx, and it scared the absolute crap out of me.

Like, I could not continue.

It's so good.

And the design is, like, unreal good.

But I just could not after a while keep playing because I was so scared.

And if it were like a single player game, you know, like with a controller, I would have been fine.

It was just like VR is so like incredibly immersive and like around you.

And I'm like, I can't handle this, right?

Mm hmm.

We are so aware that that could happen, you know?

So that's why we made the choices that we did.

Mark was like, I don't want to scare people.

And I was like well, I can make these choices that make sure that it's more inviting than like horror, you know.

Yeah, spot on.

Perfect execution on that, I think.

Did you have any like really wild swings you were trying to suggest for in terms of, you know, writing or narrative design, elements that you just could not get into the game?

Yeah, so well, first of all like uh, we were all really interested in 80s pop and i'll say it's, it's set in the 1880s and we really badly wanted to get some pop music like licensed pop music in there, but it's so expensive and we just couldn't afford it.

Um and but yeah, the second part of it was uh, i think we did end up making, like you know, quite a few album covers that look like something but aren't anything right and um.

But the second thing I really wanted to get into, I really wanted to get way more politics in.

Like I wanted to say something about Thatcher.

I wanted to say something about Reagan.

Like I wanted to be like these, like you know, like I was like these dumb asses are ruining London, you know, like that kind of stuff.

Like I really wanted to get that crap in there.

And I'm pretty sure the team were really nervous I mean, I don't know for sure, but they were really nervous, I think.

So I was like I was really into it.

But I think one of the cooler things I did get in was like so I'm obsessed with Bletchley Park, um and um code breaking and um, bletchley park has like it's a, it's a national museum of computing.

Right, if you're ever in england at any point, just get the train and go there.

It's like a sacred place, it's like a beautiful preservation of every form of computer history and it's got like colossus, which helped break the enigma code and the second world war, and it's like this amazing thing.

It's like still, he still works every day.

He like feed ticker tape into him and he solves a problem every day.

Right, he's still working.

You know, it's like i don't know there's something really nice about his clicking and kind of lights flashing and that kind of stuff.

Anyway uh, i was sassed with that history and um of code breakers and stuff and like one of the things about it is that it is little old ladies um are still around today who can tell you that they were the programmers for that code and they were code breaking in those huts during that time.

And so a lot of the original programmers of Colossus and a lot of the original code breakers were women, right?

Because the way they found them was like if you broke the Sunday Times crossword, the MOD would send you a letter and say can you come work for us?

And so um yeah, so like anyway, I was really obsessed with these ladies and so I really kind of wanted um, our lady on the, the remote Scottish islands, to be employed by the MOD and be surrounded by these like computational machines and like old code, code breaking things, and like I wanted her to be really involved in technology.

I wanted her to be surprising in lots of ways, right.

And so um, she was one thing that was like my pet project, that like i was like trying to shape this like mod history around her.

Um uh, but yeah, like that was my, my one thing that i really wanted to get in there.

Oh, the other thing was like i really wanted the aquarium in your apartment to be there.

I don't know why, i just thought that would be cool and spooky to have an aquarium.

I love these little fixations you get.

You're like, I can't tell you why this just has to happen.

I cannot, like we all get the little, you know, a few of those chips we get to cash in every game.

Yeah.

And it's like weird, isn't it?

But I think I, yeah, I had these like small obsessions over time, but. um but yeah like it's easy to forget that it's it was like i think a four-year period of development like it was a long much longer time than we all thought it was going to be um so i obviously went through like several different obsessions over time so yeah more obsessions and then the scope you know shrinks you're like no we have to ship this game we can't have more ideas but like you know Well, they were always asking me questions about like, oh, you know, what do you think this looks like?

Or what, who is this person?

And like, what do you think they do?

And I think you know whatever I was obsessing over at that point in time, what kind of went into them.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, congrats on that game.

I really, you know, it really left an impression on me as someone who has been, you know, played VR games that really stayed in the beat saber.

You know I expect you to die camps of not really story heavy type of games, but Ghost Town really sold like narrative in VR for me, right.

I find that you know, maybe because of my age or just the number of games I've played, I get really impatient at games that are too long.

Now, or try to feed me, you know long cut scenes.

But When you experience that in VR and you're in the space and, like you said, with the expert atmosphere around you, with everything firing on all fronts the story, the visuals, the sound it's really something special.

And it really made me believe in VR storytelling in a new way.

So congrats on that incredible work.

I mean, I feel pleased with it.

And I really do think.

I think one of the cooler things about it is that when I play it it reminds me of like those punch drunk theater kind of atmospheres.

You know, like it really is like very immersive.

I think I think Fireproof just like did a great job and they should make more story games.

I don't know if they are planning on it, but like I think they should.

I think they should sort of the atmosphere needs to be used right somewhere.

Yeah.

Plus one that let them know that other people believe that not just you because you worked on it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So lastly, like, you know, so you have you have done so much in your career.

So clearly there's a lot coming for you in 2026.

What's what's in store?

So i dabble on the side of like.

So i currently work for graph 2l, which is like a big triple, a company that are like really lovely to work with.

I'm like i love working with them, but i also do like little things on the side too um, in my spare time.

So like i do like i know, like writing for like smaller games and like occasionally kind of dabble with those um, but one thing that i'm really excited about is, um i really always wanted to work with robert yang and joe wintergreen and we're currently like working with riffraff games um, making sleight of hand um, and that's like just like kind of taking over.

Like i don't really spend too much time on it right now, but like it's always like really cool to be part of a very small team that you've always wanted to work with.

So um, i kind of like check in with them every so often and like ask if they need anything, but like I think that game is really special to me just because I get to work with people that I really admire and love and think that have made lovely things and amazing things.

So, um, and that whole team is just really wonderful.

Like we work so great together.

Um, I think like that's a one in a million experience to have, like not only in my like you know, my full-time job, but in my side job, a collection of people I just love working with.

Game development.

You're not always working on games specifically that you super love, but there's always the collaboration can be that rewards.

And I think that's why I love making games is that not only can you make extraordinary things, but you can make them with extraordinary people.

And I think That's the rewarding, like that's the part right now that's really exciting me.

Yeah, I think it's as I you know, thought about Your career and your work and what you're doing these days in preparation for our conversation today.

I just thought you're such a beautiful example of someone who started in the industry, changed around a lot until you found what you love, got a lot of support for that, and are now in a place where you got to move back to your home country, really support that environment and speak out for it and start to raise the banner on like hey, we should pay attention to our local cultures and our local industries and support that, but also like, survive right.

I think that it's really common to hear about friends leaving, you know major metropolitan cities LA for example and be like oh, are they leaving to get pigeonholed in their career for good reason?

For you know always really good reasons to leave LA.

I'll never fault anyone for leaving this very difficult city, but seeing you kind of like, thrive and just find you know more and more work and produce your own beautiful work and you know show that there is really legit ways to you know, survive and and accomplish things in different areas, is like it's really encouraging to see that.

So thank you for talking with me today and thank you for sharing all this amazing stuff.

And like congrats on an incredible 2025 and looking forward to all the new stuff this year from you.

Thank you.

And thank you for perspective.

Like, you know, sometimes it's really difficult to like see yourself that way.

Like I, I guess I I I, just I, I'm like you know, I'm like an actor, like I enjoy working, you know.

So every so often, you know, when someone's like, you did great, I'll be like, Oh, like, cool.

Did I?

Um, So it's really cool to have this like perspective and reflection.

So thank you.

Yeah, I think it's like.

You know, it's good and bad that we're at the part of our career, that we can start doing retrospectives now.

You know, you're like, man, that means I'm that old, unfortunately.

But it's cool to look back.

So, yeah.

Thanks for that.

Yeah.

And congratulations on your breakthrough too.

Like I loved Pacific Drive.

And it also has like an incredible vibe, like just similar to Fireproof.

Like the vibe is amazing.

Like what you create.

Thank you.

Yeah.

BAFTA breakthrough gang.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining us for The Game Maker's Notebook.

For more information on the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, our podcasts and our other initiatives, please visit wwwinteractiveorg.

[게임 업계의 경계를 허무는 이야기꾼: 카라 엘리슨(Cara Ellison)과의 대화]-[The State of Games Writing with Writer & Narrative Director Cara Ellison]

📋 Summary

게임 업계의 다재다능한 개척자, 카라 엘리슨

1. 커리어의 시작: '락스타 노스'와 QA의 경험

2. 저널리즘과 '허가'의 힘

3. 세계를 여행하며 쓴 책: 'In Bed with Games'

4. 내러티브 디자인: 복잡함을 단순함으로

5. 공포와 몰입: 'Ghost Town'에서의 경험

6. 스코틀랜드 게임 산업의 미래

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[게임 업계의 경계를 허무는 이야기꾼: 카라 엘리슨(Cara Ellison)과의 대화]-[The State of Games Writing with Writer & Narrative Director Cara Ellison]

📋 Summary

게임 업계의 다재다능한 개척자, 카라 엘리슨

1. 커리어의 시작: '락스타 노스'와 QA의 경험

2. 저널리즘과 '허가'의 힘

3. 세계를 여행하며 쓴 책: 'In Bed with Games'

4. 내러티브 디자인: 복잡함을 단순함으로

5. 공포와 몰입: 'Ghost Town'에서의 경험

6. 스코틀랜드 게임 산업의 미래

ListenLeap으로 딥러닝 학습

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

ListenLeap이 실제 문맥에서 학습하도록 이끌어줌