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Listen,listen,listen,listen, when I was in ajail, when I was in ajail, it put me in a hole tosay,right, you didn't have toblockers.
Previously onserial. Iknow,yes.
I was doingthat. Deterrence and how to fix communities and all that type ofstuff.
I try not to think of it thatway.
You can't prove youguilty.
They'll give youmisdemeanor.
You may get a bigjudgment, but it's just going to go into the stack over here that aren't gettingpaid.
You can say it wasbald, what do youthink?
Say youcan't. Say youcan't.
Say you can't evendown.
Did you hear anything about abolt?
Iswear, I did not say that he felt abolt.
From this American life in WB EasyChicago, it'sserial.
One courthouse told week byweek, I'm SarahCainick.
After the police surprised arrested Jesse Nickerson at the East Clevelandcourthouse, held him in jail for a fewdays.
He set up a call with hislawyer, ScottRamsey.
Hello.Yeah, what'sup,Jess?
Hey,hey,everybody. How youbeen,man?
I'm doingfine. I'm doinggood.
Good.Good. I gotit. They talked through the new misdemeanor charges Jesse pickedup.
And also about whether Jesse's feuding with the East Cleveland police might lead to alawsuit.
Scott Ramsey paced around his cluttered office while Jesse filled himin, explaining the arrest at the block party on the 4th ofJuly.
How he felt like the police harassed himunfairly.
He pulledup. He waslike,yeah, you're in redshirt.
Get the fuck out of mycity.
How his shoulder gotinjured.
How they left him at the hospital with fivetickets.
How many showed up in court to deal with thosetickets?
The police arrested himagain.
And hesays, through him in a locker room with no bathroom for twodays.
I was kicking on thedoor, banged on thedoor, actionhim.
Youknow, when could I use thebathroom?
Can I use thebathroom? Can I use thebathroom?
When Emmanuel and I heard Jesse had been locked in that same room where the East Cleveland police had put Arnold Black with his $22 millionverdict.
Wethought,well, there's Jesse's lawsuit rightthere,no?
How could that not be a giant settlement waiting tohappen?
But Scott Ramsey wasn't that interested in the holding cellstory.
Didn't seem outraged byit.
He thought it might be hard toprove.
Instead, he wanted to hear more about the other thing on the 4th ofJuly.
From Jesse'sdescription, it did sound like maybe the police had targetedhim.
Maybe that could lead to asubalaction.
Okay, let me ask a couple ofquestions.
The thing on the incident on the4th, what proof do we have that ithappened?
I have severalvideos, live severalvideos.
And they havevideo. And then also you have video from people's cameras and probably some bodycams.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Yeah, we definitely got thecamera.
Scott Ramsey tells Jesse to gather videoevidence, findwitnesses.
Seven to ten people would begood, hesays.
Preferably people without criminalrecords.
And then he'll assess the potential for alawsuit.
We'll give it asecond. Now you have on yourphone, you have thevideo.
As timepassed, it became obvious Scott Ramsey wasn't going to file a newlawsuit.
Jesse didn't produce the evidence Scott Ramsey'd askedfor.
But alsoJesse, as aclient, was proving a slipperybet.
His legal troubles seemed to blossom anew every couplemonths.
Not just in EastCleveland, but in othermunicipalities.
Jesse told a manual about a case he was especially worried about inEuclid.
Said the cops there had pulled him over for noreason.
He asked a manual to come to court withhim, so he could see for himself what Jesse was upagainst.
A manualdid. He went with Jesse to a court date inEuclid.
Here's amanual. I went to Euclid on the day Jesse was supposed to go to trial on eightcharges.
All for one trafficstop.
It happened a few monthsback.
Jesse's then girlfriend Ashley had just given birth to their secondson.
And the baby waspremature.
So they were both spending a lot of time at the hospital for tests andtreatment.
One day Jesse borrowed Ashley's brother's car so he could drive home and get cleanedup.
And the Euclid police pulled himover.
The start was about nothingreally.
Tintedwindows. On hisown, a misdemeanorticket.
But Jesse didn't have his seatbelton.
And he was driving about tolicense.
On top ofthat, Ashley's brother's car was like a party crimescene.
With small amounts ofweed, ascale, and two open bottles of s'murn ofice.
Hence the eight misdemeanor charges and a case in front of Judge DeborahLabyrinth.
Same judge you might remember from Aaron the Spencer'scase, episodethree.
We're going to talk more about Aaron this later on thisepisode.
But rightnow, I want to tell you what happened between Jesse and JudgeLabyrinth.
Morning.Morning. Since I'm stirring 25 minutes late thismorning.
Jesse,Nickerson. The day was a mess from thebeginning.
Like forone, Jesse showed uplate.
By the time he rushed into thecourtroom, he wasflustered.
And Judge Labyrinth wasmad.
You're onour, if you're well aware of thismatter, we'll set for a fence trial thismorning.
At 9 o'clock it's 9.25 because it's undenined and it's a turning point over here at 9o'clock.
But goahead. To be fair to JudgeLabyrinth, higher rotation had been gathering formonths.
Jesse had already missed a couple courtdates.
To be fair to Jessethough, he'd been dealing with the case against the East Cleveland cops who taken him to thepark.
So this euclucase had draggedon.
In large part because Jesse initially agreed to take aplea.
Andthen, at the lastsecond, he insisted on a trial which delayed thingsmore.
Matt trial was supposed to happentoday.
Andyet, the wordwas, Jesse had changed his mindagain.
A couple daysago, a lawyer he'dhired, a woman named HeatherMcCullough, had notified the court that nevermind, Jesse does want to take aplea.
That doesn't happen veryoften.
So we're there incourt, Judge Labyrinth calls Jesse for beinglate.
And then she turns to HeatherMcCullough.
I hearMr. Nicherson wants to pleadnow.
Is thatcorrect,Ms.McCullough?
Yes, YourHonor,sorry, but the delay noexcuses.
And then she turns toJesse.
Is thatcorrect,Mr.Nickerson?
No,ma'am.No,ma'am. As insurprise, Jesse doesn't want to take aplea.
And then it just spins out ofcontrol.
What do you meanno,ma'am?
Judge Labyrinthsays, I'm unhappy with myrepresentation, Jessereplies.
Then Jesse accuses Heather McCullough of trying to pressure him to take a plea against hiswishes.
McCullough, who's standing right next toJesse, islike, I got him init.
McCullough tells JudgeLabyrinth, this is the first time she's hearingthis.
And then McCullough and Jesse startarguing.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
I'm on alawyer. I'm on alawyer.
JudgeLabyrinth, sides ofHeather.
She's presided over Jesse's case for seven months and doesn't seem to have a question about who's fault thisis.
But Judge Labyrinth falls to once again and another court date forJesse.
Afterwards, Jesse tells me he'd flip-flopped because he was afraid that if he took theplea, Judge Labyrinth was going to throw him injail.
He tells me now he's got a newplan.
I've got a newplan. About a weeklater, Jesse's next court date inEuclid, I got to the court in a little early to watch some of Judge Labyrinth's othercases.
Goodmorning. Goodmorning.
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Goodmorning. I can't pass the drugtest, Jesse eventuallyadmits.
Where is ScottRamsey, Joshua Baronasks.
You told me on Friday you'd have himhere.
Yeah.Yeah. He wasn't able to makeit.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
Jessemumbles. Jessemumbles.
What are your thoughts onthis?
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There's an escalating series ofpenalties, mandatory beamv-thes, and fines that only a payday loan company would be proudof.
Trying to get out from under these suspensions once you've been caught in the trap is a terriblebusiness.
Jesse, he didn't even know how much heowed.
I called around to various municipalcourts, added up the potential beamv-cost, and I'd say Jesse could owe as muchas $10,000.
He told me he's tried from time to time to tend to thefees, he won't findhere, got on a payment planthere.
But at the rate he'sgoing, he'll probably never be able to settle hisbill, or get a valid driver'slicense.
Okay, back to court inEuclid.
Jesse's thinking of weed is offering to be guilty to two out of eightcharges.
Just about an accept Jesse'splea.
Man, she wonders out loud whether Jesse would be a good candidate for probation instead of a jailsentence.
The conclusion just the baron comes to isno.
No, he wouldnot. All you're going to do is argue with the probation officer over anything that I may order in thiscase.
Kind of like you did with the officers when they play shabby underarrest.
And you're conduct at the jail with the correctionsofficers.
My conduct at the jail with the correctionsofficers, Jesseasks.
Does the baron refreshes hismemory?
She takes out a police report from Jesse'sarrest, one that I hadn'tseen.
Well, while they were transporting you to thejail, do you remember your lovely comments to theofficers?
Would I say you need agun?
Yourracist, you and yourpartner, that's why they call youpigs.
Fuckyou,nigga. Fuckyou, over and over in thecar.
No. Then at thejail, you're asking the officers in front of the correctionsofficers.
What do you want tosee? I'mstrip, searchme, you fucking bagit.
Want to see mydick? It's really quite bracing to hear him in Western WhiteLady, drop theN-word, and more in an opencourt.
Like this thing to your fourth gradeteacher, Rita Quentin Town Tina'sscript.
But Judge LaBaron is notshy.
AndJesse, from what I cantell, isembarrassed.
He looks resigned and small as Judge LaBaron's entershim.
$100 infines, 40 hours of communityservice, and those ninesuspensions?
Well,congratulations, Judge LaBaronsays.
You've just bought suspension number 10 from the state ofOhio.
She's sentenced to Jesse to five days injail.
Jesse tilts his headback, closes hiseyes, as a bay lift places him inhandcuffs, and leads himaway.
I want to tell you what ended up happening with AramusSpencer, the guy with the blunt who got arrested in the hallway of his own apartmentbuilding, and put in the hospital by two policeofficers.
Because Aramus and Jesse obviously their experiences with thepolice, at the hands ofpolice, are verydifferent, and they're very differentpeople.
But in certainways, they're cases echo eachother, the aftershocksespecially.
If youremember, Aramus was trying to get rid of his criminalcharges, so that he could file a civillawsuit.
The resisting arrest was the stickingpoint.
He wasn't going to plead toit.
The city wasn't going to dropit.
They read astandoff. A trial date wasset, and then that video cameout.
The one that Aramus's lawyer called amiracle, Mana fromHeaven, only legallyspeaking, ofcourse.
In every otherway, the video washorrible.
It showed a white Euclid policeofficer, MichaelAmiat, the same one from Aramus'scase, beating the crap out of a young black guy during a trafficstop, seemingly withoutprovocation.
The guy in thevideo, actuallyvideos, they'reseveral, was named Richard HubbardIII.
You could see Hubbard's spayed out on theasphalt.
Officer Amiat on top ofhim, punching him in the face with botharms,right,left,right,left.
You see Hubbard's girlfriend on her hands andknees, slapping the ground just a few feet away fromthem, screaming for it tostop.
Pretty soon the story was in the WashingtonPost, the New YorkPost, the LATimes,CNN.
They did the same thing tome.
Imean, it seems like they're going from one toanother.
When Aramus watchedit, herecognized, withbitterness, the beating in thatvideo.
The series of moves the officersmake.
The way officer Amiat straight away tries to kick Richard Hubbard in thecrotch.
I don'tknow, maybe that's the new procedure inEuclid.
Maybe they get to throw you to the ground and knee you and kick you in the face and tasteyou.
Maybe I don'tknow, maybe that's the new procedure inEuclid.
Aramus's civilattorney, PaulCristallo, figured the Hubbard video would persuade the city of Euclid to drop theresisting.
Maybe dropeverything.
Because how are you going to put an officer on the stand who's been suspended for excessiveforce?
Who it turned out had to resign from his previous job at the Menor Police Department for lying about a trafficstop.
Even wearing a crispuniform, officer Amiat probably would look like a bad egg if hetestified.
A few weeks wentby, Euclid did not drop the wholething.
September7,2017, Aramus had his final pre-trial date inEuclid, it was aThursday.
The trial was scheduled forMonday, four days fromnow.
Spiro'sGnakis,Hermes' criminalattorney, was running around thecourthouse, haggling over the most recent pleaoffer.
Aramus arrived with hismother,Callie.
They were a littletense,understandably.
They weren't sure what was about tohappen.
They've been fighting these charges for a longtime, ninemonths.
And that was all veryreal.
The prospect that if they couldn't work something outtoday, and Hermes ended up a trial and was convicted attrial, he could get jailtime.
Spiro's walksover, motions that he wants to speak to Aramus andCallie.
Can Icome, orno?No, I'm notsure.
Okay. They step outside thebuilding, I can see them through the plate glasswindows.
Spiro's justcirculating, Aramus and Callielistening,nodding, more justcirculating, morenodding, they come backin.
Is the judge ready togo?
Yes.Okay. We all go into thecourtroom.
Goodafternoon, YourHonor.
At the prosecutor's table was a guestprosecutor, a woman named Sarah Finnelli from a fancy Cleveland lawfirm.
After the scandal with officerAmiatt, you could have hired her to deal withHermes'case.
You already know thejudge, DeborahLabyrin.
Okay. My understanding is that plea agreement has beenreached.
Is thatcorrect? That iscorrect, YourHonor.
And the pleais, you're on a certain point on behalf of the city ofEuclid.
At thistime, it's my understanding thatMr.
Spensell would draw his previous letter please of not guilty and plea of guilty to the drug abuse charge or the balances of charges to be urgent dismissed at hiscost.
After all the struggle over these four charges and the civil rights secrets theycontained, we landedhere.
Nowresisting, not even a last ditch disorderlyconduct, just theweed.
So you're dismissingcounts,B.C.
Indeed, thetheft, the resisting arrest and the criminal damaging is thatcorrect?
That iscorrect. Judge Labyrin checks withHermes.
Is thatcorrect?Yes, YourHonor.
She asks him if he's usingmarijuana.
He saysno, but he stopped after theincident.
He tells her he's trying to get ajob.
Hermes'mother,Callie, is moving around in her seat in thegallery.
Ma'am, you seem like you want to say something tome, doyou?
Ido. Just a few minutes ago out in the lobby before courtstarted, Callie and I had beentalking.
She's got four grownsons, or closefamily.
She's been right there with Hermes every step of thiscase.
She told me the police don't realize one day this could happen to one of theirchildren.
Someway,somehow, she said the excessiveforce, it has tostop.
I said I can care less about anythingelse.
That's my main goal just to stopit.
Imean, I'm not trying to throw no race car at this and that andthat.
I just want it to be fixed because Imean, I'm not saying police arebad.
But if the system don't fix the one that'sbad, then that means the whole system iscorrupt.
But you want us as a society to fix what's going on in ourhome, but you don't want to fix what's going on in yourhome.
Okay. Imean, enough isenough.
She talked about the beating her sontook, when it was like for her to see him in a hospitalbed, his facedisfigured.
As she feltblessed, she hadn't been called to come view her son's body thatday.
Now, Callie was about to address the judge for the firsttime.
And Ithought, here itcomes.
Even though it was a bad incident thathappened, I'm glad because I've been trying to get my son off of a marijuana foryears.
He's been cleaned every sinceDecember.
I couldn't ask for a better payment for me as to see my son back like he was before hisson.
Seeing him offer marijuana and everything else is ablessing.
So, forthat, I'mthankful.
And I appreciate your time andsmell.
Unfortunately, sometimes it takes something bad to happen for something good to come out ofit.
I'm amother. I'm afather.
I'm afather. I'm afather.
I'm afather. I'm afather.
I'm afather. I'm afather.
I'm afather. I'm afather.
I'm afather. I'm afather.
Well, I seeMr.Spencer, you have great support in yourmother.
And you're very lucky to havethat.
Yes. On the drug abusecharge, I found youguilty.
It'll be $150 incosts.
Spiros had said ittoo. This incident he told the judge has helpedAramis.
He's beenclean, offmarijuana, straightenedout.
He's just happy to put this matter behindhim.
The elephant in theroom, thekicking, thetazing, the twohospitals, the broken orbitalbone, all of it had suddenly shrunk to the size of abulge, a blunt-sizedbulge, as if this whole ugly endeavor was only about getting Aramis off ofweed.
Aramis knew the truth ofit, ofcourse.
Later outside thecourthouse, he'd give me a rise smile andsay, I'll take what I canget.
But in thismoment, Callie was flooded with maternalrelief.
She walked over to SarahFinnelly, the visitingprosecutor, and gave her ahug.
He has changed his life inthis.
Oh, myGod. That's a goodidea.
Thathug, not the end of thestory.
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When Paul had first taken me to meet Aramus back at the end of2016.
As we were drivinghome, he'd impressed on me how enduring the consequences of a beating canbe.
Paul's talked to a lot of people who have been hurt by police officers or correctionsofficers.
And he said it's not something that'sover, even when it'sover.
When you are seriously injured by thepolice, when you're sent to the hospital and isn't just softtissue, somebullshit, it really does affectthem.
This will mess withhim.
You stick with this story and we followhim, you'llsee.
I understood the broad strokes of what Paul wassaying.
That there'd be some kind of fallout overtime.
Psychologicalfallout.
But I wasn't sure what that was going to looklike.
A few weeks after Aramus's criminal caseended, Paul told me about a confusing conversation he'd had withAramus.
During which Aramus was repeating certain things about what had happened in hishallway, as if it were looping in hishead.
I called Callie to ask whether she'd notice the samething.
Over and over and over and over andover.
Wow.Yep. It happenedyesterday.
And are you like how worried are you abouthim?
Very.Oh,really?Very.
As amother.Yes. It's not easy watching your child go through this and you really have no way ofhelping.
And I know forme, it's like his trust level is not thatnormal.
Anytime something comes up in thenews, shesaid, or maybe they're watching a movietogether, which used to be a joy forher.
But now if something comes up related to police violence or governmentcorruption, she's worried about Aramus'sreaction.
First thing you have to sayis,see, I toldyou,okay, trustnobody.
That'sright. Hegets, I may beangry.
And he gets to talk and you can eat yourtwice, getloud.
You can feel the sense of rage in his tonenow.
His body language is totallydifferent.
What's your fear for him if he's kind of got that rage andanger?
He's got to know what he's not really a plane of thestreet.
And Iam. Aramus ishurting, shesaid.
And the shape of that hurt seems to be a need to prove to everyone around him that he's not apunk, that he'stough.
So Callie's biggest fear now is that it'll take that hurt and that need out into the streets and deploy them where they don'tbelong.
Callie says none of her sons had been in the streets growingup.
So this is new forher, forthem.
She never thought this kind of thing would happen to herfamily.
But shesaid,suddenly, you are that family that it's happeningto.
Officer MichaelAmiat, the cop inAramus'case, was fired from the Euclid PoliceDepartment.
More use of force incidents had come tolight, including a dreadful thing in the Euclid PublicLibrary.
The bodycam video showed him taking a 16-year-old girl wearing a backpack to the ground face first while she was inhandcuffs, kept her down with hisknee.
The small child waswatching,shrieking.
Amiat stayed fired for about ayear, but he'd appealed histermination, and just recently an arbitrator sided withhim.
Officer Amiat should be back on the Euclid Police Force anyday.
Paul Christallo did end up filing a lawsuit on behalf of Aramus against the City ofEuclid, the policeofficers, andAramus' apartmentbuilding.
Serifinelli, the guest prosecutor whom Calliehugged, defended the City ofEuclid.
This pastsummer, theysettled.
Neither the City nor the officers admittedliability.
Aramusgot $50,000. It wasn't as much as Paul hadhoped, but he felt it was the best they were going todo.
Things with Aramus had becomerocky.
He picked up a few newcharges,marijuana, but also domesticviolence.
They were allmisdemeanors, butstill.
I don't want to make excuses for whatever Aramus might havedone, and to be clear neither didPaul.
But I did ask Paul whether he thought there was a connection between then andnow.
Was this what he was talking about back in December of 2016 when he toldme, this will mess withhim.
If you stick with the story and we followhim, you'llsee.
Paulsaid, I don'tknow.
I really don'tknow. In a civiltrial, assuming youwin, the jury has to figure outdamages.
That's the final stage ofreckoning.
The cause leads to an effect leads to compensation for the damage doneyou.
Financially,physically, it's a fairly rationalcalculus.
But how do you quantify the intangible damage a cop does to your sense of theworld, to your sense of yourself when he kicks yourass?
And then what if it's not one cause that's led to thedamage?
What if there are manycauses, manyeffects?
I tried to call and messageAramus.
Finally, I got word throughPaul.
Aramus didn't plan on calling meback.
He said he didn't have any interest in that rightnow.
Jesse Nickersonthough, differentstory.
Jesse had a lot to say to a manual about causes andeffects.
I'm going to hand you back to a manualnow.
Formonths, Jesse continued to rack up all kinds of tickets andcharges, including a charge for menacing an East Cleveland police officer at a gasstation.
When I first heard about thisthing,honestly, mythought,no, it's just more of thesame.
The police have a hair trigger forJesse.
They were probably harassing him and he gave itback.
Small thing took on a life of hisown.
Which is how Jesse initially describedit.
Hesaid,yeah, he'd confronted acop, but it was nothingreally.
Prettytame. So when I got the video of what hadhappened, it really threwme.
It was nottame. The video is from a body cam that DavidDuncan, an East Cleveland policeofficer, waswearing.
Init, you can see that Duncan standing inside a gas station convenience store right by theentrance.
Then Jesse enters theframe, coming from the back of theshop, carrying adrink.
Jesse skips everyone in line at theregister, puts some money down on thecounter, and as he walks past Duncan towards thedoor, starts cutting himout.
I'msorry, you gotit? I didn't have to tellyou,brother.
You could havehim,brother.
Jesse leaves thestore, but then comes backin.
He walks towards Duncan and then backsup, opening the doors if toleave, again andagain.
As Duncan tellsJesse, he never did anything tohim.
Jesse's trying to start something withDuncan.
Duncan's really not going forit, but Jesse'srelentless.
You only do stuff to people inCuffs, Jessesays.
You werecoward. I'm not going to do nothing toyou.
You werecoward. You werecoward.
Jesse motions towards the parkinglot.
Take off thatsheet. Let's double the size of thebuilding.
Let's cast thatwork. I never did nothing toyou.
I never did nothing toyou.
You gotfixed,nigga. I found this videoshocking.
Jesse's soaggressive.
I didn't understandit.
Didn't understand what Jesse thought he wasdoing, or what in the world he could possibly get from going after a cop thisway.
Other than moretrouble.
A few hours after I got thevideo, I made up with Jesse to talk aboutit.
I picked you up half overhere.
Youalright?Yeah, I don't wantone.
Jesse's been smoking weed in his car in the parking lot at a train and bus station calledWindermere, right in the middle of hisCleveland.
A lot of people seem to come and hang outhere.
Jesse and I sat in his car and watched forvideo.
We got to the part where Jesse seems to be challenging Duncan tofight.
I pausedit. What are you asking him todo,though?
I'm telling him to address theissue.
I'm saying I'm fedup,basically.
I'm fed up with you people putting your hands onme.
That's what I'msaying.
Be amad,then. Comeon. I'm not saying I'm going to beat your ass rightnow.
You allsaying,like, stepoutside.
I'm telling him to take off his shit andnot...
What do you mean take off hisshit?
Take off his arm or his badge and all of that and be aman.
What does that mean be aman?
I'm saying because obviously every time they'd ran intome, they'd beat me up while they had handcuffson.
I guess it's confusing to me because on the one hand yousaid, I don't want any business for thesepolice.
I'm going about mybusiness.
I'm not doing anything illegal and they're harassingme.
It seemslike... but it seems like youare...
you're harassing this officer rightnow.
Like, you're startingthis.
Yes, Idid. Jesse reminded me that David Duncan wasn't some random-y's-peave-and-policeofficer.
Duncan was the officer who darted through the crowd of people on the 4th ofJuly.
Let everyone else alone and grabJesse.
It was Duncan who dragged Jesse to thecar.
It was Duncan on the bodycam from that night who stood over Jesse and soliciting that Jesse had hurt himself as Jesse Laver shouting inpain.
You getit,Jesse. You tell him we wash you forit.
Or you're all forit. We wash you for it on yourown,Jesse.
Jesse also told me he knew Duncan even beforethat.
Remember OfficerNeville's, the cop who gave Jesse's phone number to the mainDixon, or one who circled me and Jesse in thepark?
Jesse had gone to the police department to complain aboutNeville's.
And when hedid, it was OfficerDuncan, Jesse said he'd talk tohim.
Jesse said Duncan asked him who he wanted to complainabout.
And when Jesse told himNeville's, Jesse said Duncan toldhim,Man, get the fuck out ofhere.
I tried to talk to Duncan to ask about his various interactions withJesse, but the police department refused to make himavailable.
Jesse told me he was a rule he's never backed down from afight, except with thepolice.
Sure, he shot his mouth off ofthem, but he never fought backphysically.
Not in the park ofDixon, not in the fourth ofJuly, not when he says they threw him in the holdingcell.
Jesse felt like the police were bullyinghim, and he was just takingit.
Man had been borrowing him more andmore.
Another time we were hanging out atWindermere, Jesse told me he'd been having dreams about being back in the park with D'Nane and the othercop.
Reliving themoment, D'Nane challenged him to afight.
It sounded like these dreams were one-potflashback, one-pot fantasy about how things might have gonedifferently.
The situation probably would have worked out for the best or theworst.
If I would have defendedmyself, I'd try to run for thesituation, and they'd chase me and beat medown.
So I'mthinking, if I were to handle my business right in theneck, because I'm aman, and Iknow...
You think that if you defendedyourself, it would have gone better foryou?
If I would have defendedmyself, it would have beenbetter.
Because Iknow... I know fromme, my physicalwell-being, I can handlehim.
I can handle it both of themofficers.
I doubtedthat. The name was a 6'4 X Arena footballlinebacker.
I don'tknow. I just feel like two against one in thatsituation.
I'm not tryingto... That would not have turned outwealthy.
I'm notsaying, I wouldhave...
I'msaying,listen, I hate that I couldn't defendmyself.
I hate that I couldn't defendmyself.
When I justran, that means I didn't have surrendered tohim.
I didn't have surrendered tohim.
I knew Jesse felt ashamed about that night in thepark.
I'd always thought that was because it's inherently humiliating to be physicallyoverpowered.
But talking withJesse, I realized I didn't have that quiteright.
Really, the thing Jesse feels ashamed about is that he ranaway.
Jesse was asking Duncan to fight him like aman, and I have it Jesse wasn't incuffs.
What you're going to hear is fight me like you're aman.
But also for Duncan to fight Jesse like Jesse's a mantoo.
In avideo, after what feels like an eternity of yelling atDuncan, Jesse finally givesup,leaves.
We have a people in the store starttalking.
A lot of my owneyes. One guy in thestore, Dap's Duncanup, congratulates Duncan on keeping hiscool.
At onepoint, the woman says to Duncan aboutJesse.
That is sosad. Once I saw the video of Jesse yelling atDuncan, I wanted to get my hands on as much information about Jesse's interactions with the police aspossible.
So sameday, I went from Jesse's car to the East Cleveland Police Station to see if I could pick up some more police reports from Jesse's arrest on the 4thJuly.
At thestation, there was a man at the vestibule window I never metbefore, Sergeant JeffWilliams.
Sergeant Williams is an older whiteguy, wellbuilt,weathered,bald, with assault andpeppercote.
I told him I wanted a policereport.
He gotup, ambled over to acomputer, and asked who it wasfor.
JesseNickerson, Isaid, I want to see the report for the 4thJuly.
Sergeant Williamsnodded, printed off thereports.
As he walked to thewindow, Williams scanned thepages, laughing a little as he read what Jesse said to the officers thatnight.
But then when he got to thewindow, SergeantWilliams' eyes suddenly welled up withtears.
He told me that Jesse never would have talked to him thatway.
I'd been trying for months to get anyone from the East Cleveland Police Department to talk to me aboutJesse, and it had just beenimpossible.
Sergeant Williams didn't say muchelse, but he motioned me over to a door and buzzed me into theback.
We went to an office where Williams offered me a seat at adesk.
He told me he didn't want to berecorded, but hesaid, let me tell you why Jesse is the way heis.
Sergeant Williams told me he'd been acquainted with Jesse's family for 20years.
The Nickincons were sort of notorious in EastCleveland, and Jesse's older brothers were constantly getting introuble.
But Sergeant Williams said Jesse was a really sweetkid, superbright.
The kind of kid you want to save from the world aroundhim.
Sergeant Williams smiled when he talked aboutit.
Then hepaused. Said Jesse stopped being that bright young kid after Rickydied.
Jesse told me aboutRicky, his olderbrother, and how Ricky was murdered in 1998 when Jesse was 10 yearsold.
We were sitting in his living room and Jesse built a makeshift diorama on the coffee table in front of him using a cigarette lighter and a bottle ofvodka.
Jesse moved him around as he told thestory.
About one night Ricky had been with three friends hanging out in the parkinglot, smokingweed, laced withPCP.
Then one of Ricky's friends had a psychoticepisode, and shot Ricky in thehead.
The other guysran, but the friend of the gun hunted themdown, one byone, and killedthem.
According toJesse, all of this happened with a police officer just one streetaway.
An officer who no doubt heard thegunfire, but didn't respond until after the shootingstopped.
The police could have saved one person thatnight, Jessesaid, but the officer didn't donothing, sat overthere, and three peopledied.
Sergeant Williams told me that after thatnight, Jesse wasn't thesame.
Within a couple ofyears, he started getting introuble.
He said Jesse's whole family seemed to real from Ricky'sdeath.
For yearsafterwards, Sergeant Williams said he would constantly be picking up one of Jesse's other brothers for smallcrimes, mostlydrug-related.
Onenight, Williams responded to adisturbance, and when he gotthere, he saw Jesse's brother wasinvolved.
Jesse's brother was so high and out ofit, Sergeant Williams decided to just take him home instead of taking him to thestation.
As theydrove, Jesse's brother told SergeantWilliams, you don't knowdeath.
Sergeant Williams admitted he didn't knowdeath, but the only people he'd ever lost were hisgrandparents.
He dropped Jesse's brotheroff.
When Sergeant Williams came home thatmorning, he arrived to find his own 14-year-old son Kyle haddied.
He'd been huffing a bottle of dust off computer cleaner and gone into cardiacarrest.
Sergeant Williams said the death towards familyapart.
He blamed himself for not knowing how dangerous his huffingwas.
His daughter blamed herself because she'd seen Kyle sneak off with a bottle of dust off and hadn't saidanything.
Sergeant Williams said she neverrecovered.
Sergeant Williams told me he's watched Jesse get introuble, and to him it's always looked likesuffering.
The only reward Jesse's ever gotten for his suffering at seeing the Sergeant Williams was to be beaten up by two cops and sent away with a little bit ofmoney.
He said thesedays, whenever he hears Jesse'sname, he braces himself for the news that Jesse'sdead.
He told me that if I was going to do a story about JesseNicholson, I should talk to Jesse more aboutRicky.
So Idid, three weekslater.
Jesse and I met in hisapartment.
Jesse was not in the greatest ofmoods.
Our interview had spilled into a Thursdaynight, and he could hear his friends drinkingoutside.
I brought up SergeantWilliams.
I ran into him not too longago, and he said some really nice things aboutyou.
I started to tell him what Sergeant Williams had said about what a sweet bright kid Jesse was about Ricky'smurder.
But Jesse said it wasn't likethat.
I know Officer Naredia shit forme.
He'sCleveland. He never gave me an extra damn apple ornothing.
So that's alie.Okay. Because Imean, he didn't even saveit.
He'd reallydone. I didn't even saveit.
I'm just saying I likeit.
It's no officer thatnever, never been nice tome.
Sono. Jesse wasadamant.
More adamant than I'd ever heard himbe.
He denied about Sergeant Williams knew anything abouthim.
This is how blind and foolish hewas.
He's not speaking onme.
He's not speaking onme.
He's speaking on mybrother.
William. I'm29. I'm29.
Mybrother, mybrother, I killed 20 yearsago.
I wasn't out here in thestreets.
He wouldn'tknow. He wouldn't know me backthen.
But he said you were like a small kid and that youknow, he knew you as a smallkid.
I wasn't outhere. I wasn't out here in thestreets.
Like I wasn't outhere. I'm tryingto.
I'm saying actually do themath.
Like I'm alisten. I am not interacting with theofficer.
I'm a school andstuff. I'm achild.
I'm not in ahouse. What isthis?
Youknow, seeme. Jesse said Sergeant Williams must be confusing him for his brotherWilliam.
When I've met Jesse's brotherWilliam, he and Jesse do look a littlealike.
But in anycase, the thing Jesse most strongly rejected was that Ricky's death had changed the course of Jesse's life in the way Sergeant Williams wassaying.
His brother gotkilled.
I seenit. I seen it in thetrouble.
Listen, what kid ain't going to cry and allthat?
Would you see mecry? If you see me cry orsomething, that's what I supposed todo.
I went through the things that I was going through when I was young because I was young anddumb.
I was young anddumb. I seen everybody out here with all the flashy stuff and allthat.
I wanted the samestuff.
But youknow, caught a case when I was 18 and got out when I was 22 and they'd never been backlike.
So it's cool that I'min.
I'm not angry at theofficer.
He's just got to speakfacts.
Like life is aboutfacts.
But they want to single something like why I am a trouble human being like why I'm a troubleperson.
This is a person spectating somebody else'slife.
Imean, that'sit. All he trying to do is belike,listen, this is why Nickersent is the way I'm trying to doit.
The way he is or this is why he didn't went through the drugs or tribulations he didn't wentthrough.
That's not the caseman.
That's not thecase. Jesse went on angrily for the next 10 minutes about SergeantWilliams'theory.
I think his reaction was so intense because he's been through so much more than Ricky'sdeath.
His sisterDenise, who Jesse was closeto, went missing for over a week when Jesse was a teenager and she was found dead in herapartment.
His brother Antoine died as aninfant.
His teenage nephew DeAndre died in a driveby.
Then, there were all the wrongs Jesse believes the police have donehim.
I think when Sergeant Williams pins so much meaning on Ricky and how Ricky's death affectedJesse, Jesse found itoffensive,generalizing.
Jesse wasn't in the mood to hear the Sergeant'stheories.
He was too angry forthat.
And he wasn't interested in beingexplained, especially by all people and policeofficer.
I'm veryserious. I'mnot...
I'm trying to be in thevictim.
No more Jesse Nickerson is being avictim.
I'm notletting... What does thatmean?
I'm not saying I just want the world toknow.
I'm not about to keep being avictim.
If someone felt it would come up on me and put their hands on me for noreason, I'm not going to let ithappen.
I'm not just aboutto...
As you cansee, all these other times I never did nothing but I just been avictim.
I'm not about to keep being a victimman.
I had to press him to get him to lay it outexplicitly.
But Jesse was saying that the next time the police got physical withhim, his plan was to fightback.
Ritzy Morrison foreveryone.
EspeciallyMorrison, because in the months afterthat, that leads in EastCleveland, appeared to be driving down Jesse's street alot.
Riding Jesse ticket after ticket for theusual, driving on asuspension, readpossession.
One East Cleveland cop later told me the attitude of a folks in charge was that while officers shouldn't go out of their way to write Jesseup.
They shouldquote, handle Jesse whenever the opportunity presenteditself.
Eventually, the East Cleveland cop toldme, the snowball effectwill, youknow, takeeffect.
Last thing I'm going to tell you is how Jesse's pile up of criminal charges in East Cleveland shouldcount.
Jesse beat one charge attrial.
But the bulk of them dragged on formonths.
Months andmonths. Until one court date inJanuary, when East Cleveland essentially held out one hand to make adeal.
And with theother, it took aswing.
The city dropped all five charges from Jesse's Fourth of Julyarrest.
They didn't have body cam video that backed up the claim that Jesse was theaggressor.
But he'd spat on anofficer.
Inreturn, Jesse pleaded to three misdemeanorcharges, including the menacing charge against officer Duncan at the gasstation.
And on thosecharges, the city went afterhim, asking for a year injail.
Drawing a sentencething, the city prosecutor listed some of Jesse's old felonyconvictions, noting Jesse's long rap sheet in EastCleveland, some 22 cases inall.
She played body cam video from one of Jesse's previousarrests,where, through toform, Jesse was mouthing off to the policeofficer.
What she didn't know was that that same arrest wassuspect.
Jesse later beat that case attrial.
Anyway, in a brief filed with thecourt, the city argued that Jesse posed a danger to thepolice.
And on top of that was aquote, extremely negatively perverse influence on the city of EastCleveland.
Thejudge, WilliamDawson, didn't seem moved by the city'spitch.
Instead, he did something I did not seecoming.
He pretty much acknowledged that the city had apoint.
Butalso, he diplomatically told everyone that he thought Jesse had a pointtoo.
That the city and the police had an out forhim.
Dawsonsaid, in not so manywords, that's probablytrue.
Obviously, I wasn'tthere.
I don't know whatoccurred, but it seems like youprevailed.
There was asettlement.
Soobviously, somethinghappened.
And that could be the reason you have a problem with thepolice.
I cannot discountthat.
And at the sametime, that may be a reason why they have a problem withyou.
It'slike,okay, we think that he prevailed and he shouldn't haveprevailed.
Soyeah, every time his blinker is not working withhim, pull himover.
This is called it as blank aspossible.
They don't likeyou,maybe, and you may not likethem.
Sonow, how do we deal with encounters so that you end up incourt?
That's thekey. Josh Dawson decided some kind of solution other than jail time was inorder.
And withthat, he sentenced Jesse to six months of probation and enrolled him in a program designed to teach people how to have better experiences with the criminal justicesystem.
His hope he later told me was that Jesse would learn how to behave better around police to calm himself so these interactions would be lessheated.
I thought it was almostkind, though it also seemed like the judge was hoping Jesse would change because he knew the Eastgiven police weren't goingto.
Just before Jesse's 30thbirthday, he was talking to a manual on thephone.
Jesse was full ofresolve.
He was wasting too much energy on thecourts, hesaid.
He was ready to do somethingmeaningful, maybe write a book about hislife.
He wanted to write the end of his storynow, hesaid, so that it would be a goodending.
If you slot Jesse into a dataset, no one's favorite place to hangout, sorryJesse.
But if you consider him not as a trash talker with a rapsheet, but as a 30 year old man going about hisbusiness, odds are the criminal justice system is pretty much done withJesse.
People in their 30s andolder, they're not the ones committing the most and the worstcrimes.
There's one research paper Iread, I gently putit, crime tends to be a young person'sactivity.
To see the people the system is really focusedon.
We need to just lean to the left a little bit and look behind Jesse at theteenagers.
That's nexttime, oncereal.
Which will be in twoweeks, I gotta go out oftown, but then we'll be back with our finalepisodes.
Serials produced by JulieSnyder, a manual Jochi Ben Calhoun and me with additional reporting by Idleia Skoski and a fewshrugs.
Editing on this episode from IraGlass, Whitney Dangerfield is our digitaleditor, researching fact checking by BenFalon.
Sound Design and Mixed by StoNelson, music clearance by AnthonyRoman.
Seth Lynn is our director ofoperations.
The serial staff includes EmilyCondon, JulieWhitaker, CassieHowley, Francis Swanson and MattTierney.
Our music is by Adam Dorne and HoweWilner, with additional music from Matt McGinley and WesSchwartz.
Our theme song is by Nick Thorburn and remix by AdamDorne.
Special thanks to DerekJackson, MariahCrenshaw, NickCastelli, Judge MichaelDonnelly, Judge JohnO'Donnell, DavidEisenberg, and LindsayBor, Greg Edwards and Marsha Fisher from the Howe Bureau of MotorVehicles, AbigailMcNeil, AmandaBates, LindaRico, and JackGreen.
The art on our website was made by MartinezE.B., he created the mural for thisepisode, and Matt Studio did theanimation.
Please check it out on ourwebsite,serialpodcast.org, that'sserialpodcast.org, where you can also sign up for our email newsletter and be notified when new episodes arereleased.
