Ted Audio Collective.
HBR presents. Hi everyone, you're listening to After Hours.
I'm Yang Mi. I'm Felix.
And I'm Mi here. And we're going to talk about shopping and retail today.
Shopping! Yes. Are you guys finicky shoppers?
Depends. Right? So if I buy a bicycle, I'm super finicky.
Furniture. I'm very choosy.
Clothing, not so much.
Like once I find something that I like, I bought like the same sneakers like five times in a row.
I always buy multiple shoes.
Like if I find a shoe I like, buying one seems such a mistake.
You buy backups. I like this and therefore...
And then I can vary for four or five years.
I try to like concentrate all my shopping as much as possible.
Like I went to an outlet and I bought like two years worth of clothes.
And I just don't want to go shopping ever again.
What about you Yang Mi?
What do you do? You know, I'm a simple person.
I'm a person. Yeah, right.
I don't like to shop, but if I have to shop, I'm finicky.
What's the category you're least finicky about?
I'm least finicky. Okay, I'm finicky about most things.
I will say one thing I love about shopping is not actually shopping, but it's like a pulse on the economy and a pulse on the world and on consumer trends.
Like I actually don't particularly like shopping for things for myself, but like if you ask me, do you want to go check out this new mall?
I kind of get into that because I'm curious about what's going on.
Oh, it's a window into culture.
Like if you go to a stationary store in Tokyo, you get a window into that culture.
One of the first things I do when I go to a country I've never been in within a day for sure, I'm in a grocery store.
I find grocery stores so interesting.
Yes, or a convenience store or their version of a 7 -Eleven.
Yes, exactly. Because it tells you everything you need to know.
It's a whole world.
Yeah, what else? So we are going to spend the episode talking about the trends we are keeping an eye on in retail and shopping.
Should be fun. So, Yungmi, what's your first trend?
Oh, you want me to go first?
Yes. So I am obsessed with thinking about social commerce models right now.
Oh, okay. So if you think about the first generation of e -commerce platforms, players like Amazon and Etsy and eBay and Shopify, and then you try to imagine, okay, what's the next generation of e -commerce going to look like?
One clue is to look at Asia and in particular to look at what's happening in China with social commerce.
I think most people know the story of Pinduoduo and Taobao Live, how they've transformed their platforms.
But what they all have in common is they have turned shopping into a form of entertainment, a form of socializing, a form of gaming that creates this incredible engagement.
And they also create lots of different kinds of buying opportunities like you can buy something yourself, or you can band together with a group of other people.
And the live streaming element of this is really interesting.
So think, you know, a more modern version of almost QVC or home shopping, but with all of the social media overlay and the gamification on top.
And so the big question for me is, what is the version of this that's going to take off in the West?
Because I am personally convinced there is a version of this that will take off.
It's probably not going to be like the Chinese model.
It's going to be different, but it's not clear different in what ways exactly.
So right now there are so many startups here in the West that are trying to crack the code on this.
And there's so many venture capital firms circling around this space, trying to identify the player, the players that are going to really crack it wide open.
I think on that last one you mentioned, Youngmi, to your question, what's going to take off in the West?
I think the content creation piece strikes me as being really, really important, which is can users actually start to create content that gets uploaded to the sites, gets shared of those products, and then they become part of that process.
And I think that is really interesting.
Like, you know, that changes the buying experience.
Totally. And it makes purchasing a different thing, makes it social, but it also makes it creative.
This is one of the biggest questions in my mind.
You see the social models in Asia that are built on huge platforms that then allow you to do amazing machine learning so that you always see the content that is really enticing to you.
And that's sort of one model.
And then there's another model where it's just an individual, just a person that somehow has gotten notoriety, has sometimes hundreds of thousands of followers, and then they pair up with manufacturers.
So all of a sudden, before you know it, someone's selling a phone or someone's selling another product where you know there's no chance they could have been part of the creation of the product itself.
But it's the endorsement that comes from this particular person endorsing a product that makes this so powerful.
So both of these things, what they have in common is that they're just helping you choose, right?
So one of the phenomena of the world we're living in right now is just an explosion of long -tail brands in every category imaginable, whether it's fashion or beauty.
And so the dilemma for anyone isn't, oh, I don't have access to what I need, but rather, how in the world do I choose?
And so you either need some algorithm helping you decide what is right for you, or you need a personality you trust who can curate that content for you.
And so I think what you're seeing is so much of the power in this retail space moving to the player that controls that curation piece.
And I just find that really interesting.
Super interesting. I'm also struck by just the link to bricks and mortar, which is, you know, what bricks and mortar is trying to do desperately is to become more experiential.
And I can't help but think to myself they're going to get outstripped on the experiential nature of shopping because of these trends.
Now, there's a different kind of experientialism that can happen in bricks and mortar, but it really feels like shopping is becoming experience driven both on the online side and on the bricks and mortar side.
Even beyond experiential, there's entertainment, more broadly speaking, and engagement has just become the most valuable currency for everything, not just social media anymore.
I mean, think about the New York Times app.
It's basically a cooking app, you know, with some news.
If I had to guess, I guess the biggest engagement is with the cooking, and number two is probably games.
I think games is on top.
Yes. Self help. And then we have a news business too, or if you think about Robin Hood.
This is really a big idea, young me.
And the question is, this is entertainment leading.
I don't know how to talk about this, but it's like entertainment is not the tail wagging the dog.
Oh, it is the tail wagging the dog.
So maybe it is tail wagging the dog in finance trading or in news or in these apps, or it is really intriguing.
Yeah. Anyway, I'm obsessed with this right now.
Felix, what are you keeping your eye on in retail right now?
I am fascinated with our continuing supply chain issues.
Oh, we talked about this.
Is this the dumbbell thing again?
The dumbbell thing.
Are you still trying to find ways to get some purchase?
The bicycle dumbbell.
Felix, are you announcing your dumbbell then?
Is that what you want to do?
It's a dumbbell sub -stack, and you're going to be selling dumbbells too.
It's across every category you can imagine.
And what I find so fascinating is there's a very general phenomenon that it's hard to find what you want.
And then the reasons are so, so, so super specific.
So if you bought flowers for your mom for Mother's Day, you notice that prices were out of control.
Why? Well, Mother's Day 2020 didn't go very well.
So they planted much less.
And so slow production, long production cycles is one reason why now that we're coming out of the pandemic, just many products are not available.
Blue cheese. Well, you know, it takes a little while to get your blue cheese the way you want it.
That takes a long time.
Second example, you want to buy a tent from, say, this company, Anchor Industries.
Can't find it. Like, what's wrong with tent production?
Wait, Felix, can I just pause?
You are shopping for dumbbells and tents.
And blue cheese. And blue cheese.
I just find myself fascinated reading all these supply chains.
You will laugh at me.
I subscribe to a supply chain magazine, I think, for the first time in my life.
So say, in tents, it turns out when they ship them, they use the plastic straps.
There was a winter storm in Texas that shut down dao plants.
And you cannot find plastic straps.
So the workers are now using essentially Scotch tape to package these tents.
Then you're thinking, oh, I'm an egg manufacturer.
I have a huge problem finding carton for my eggs.
Why on earth could that be?
Like, who is using up all the capacity in carton production?
All the people who order pizza every day.
So all the capacity goes into boxes for pizza.
Nike sales fell by 11 % because there's a container shortage.
And so I find there's no rhyme or reason, really, but it's like all of these really idiosyncratic issues that then make it hell for retailers to find what they want to sell.
I'm curious, Felix, there is a narrative out there about this, which is, you know what?
We got too lean on our supply chains.
Do you think that's right?
Or do you think this is like a bunch of transitory phenomenon?
It doesn't strike me as completely right, because at least as far as I can see, there's not one big reason.
And I think even if we said, oh, maybe we were too tight with some supply chains, but many other stories just are not like that.
We have the wrong kinds of berries because when hotels and cruises shut down, they thought it had, you know, pretty big effect on berry consumption, which it did for a little while, but only a particular type of berries.
So we don't have enough strawberries and we have too many blackberries.
So, Felix, when we experience shortages, it's only a function of our missed forecasting.
In other words, if we have perfect predictive abilities all the time, then we would never experience shortages.
And so because we've come out of an 18 months where there have been disruptions in supply and demand, it's going to take some time for that to sort itself out.
But once we start to get more reliability, more predictability back into our consumption patterns, you would expect all of that stuff to begin to iron itself out, right?
I think that that sounds exactly right to me.
And we will go back to managing these problems.
It's just I think the connections that you often miss, right?
So the person in the egg business didn't really think about pizza's demand for cardboard, because that was just not a margin along which anything ever happened.
But it's also a lesson in kind of shifting capacity.
That I think is one of the lessons of all this, which is we sometimes take as some lump and thing, like just take that capacity and move it over there.
But it's not, right?
It's not, yes. It's not.
And those switches are costly and take time.
That's a good one. So Felix talked about something that's happening.
I've talked about something that hasn't happened yet in the West.
Mejia, what do you have?
Well, I just wanted to cement my old man reputation and talk about the past.
Is it a history lesson?
It's a history lesson indeed.
No, look, I think the most interesting thing going on in retail is what's happening with some of these folks who have failed recently.
So Forever 21, Lucky, Brooks Brothers, JCPenney.
You went to the graveyard of retail.
I went to the graveyard, but here's what I found in the graveyard.
Who owns all that stuff now?
So it turns out to be the malls.
So who is the buyer, Simon and Brookfield, two large mall owners and REITs, which are called real estate investment trusts, are the buyers of these stores along with a company called Authentic Brands.
Authentic Brands is like a little IP royalty shop that would, for example, take Sports Illustrated, the brand, and then slap it on a bunch of stuff on like CBD products and make 4 % or 5%.
But guess what they've done?
They've partnered with Simon, which is the largest retail mall operator and Brookfield to buy these brands, Forever 21, Lucky and Brooks Brothers.
So there are several aspects of this, which are amazing.
First aspect is, I mean, they're buying them for like a couple hundred million dollars, which is kind of amazing because these are venerable brands.
But the really interesting part is why is Simon, which is a mall operator, buying them?
One answer is, they just like the businesses.
Here's another answer.
They don't want to lose out on the rent.
And they're basically buying companies to secure rental income in their malls.
And it gets even weirder.
So the way these malls work is if JCPenney stops, then a bunch of other retailers in the malls can get out of their leases.
It's called co -tenancy.
So what is Simon doing?
Simon buys JCP to make sure that their anchor tenants stay.
On the one hand, you might say, great.
They're buying businesses cheap.
On the other hand, you might say, wait a second, are they buying rent for their real estate investment trust?
It gets even weirder because these malls, by the way, Simon and Brookfield are very, very large companies and they're organized as real estate investment trusts, which just stay with me for a second here, are very tax advantaged because there's no corporate tax.
But there's a trick.
You can't own operating companies inside these real estate investment trusts.
And now they do. And now they do.
So guess what? They're trying to change the laws on real estate investment trusts.
And then you worry about problems like, well, wait a second.
I'm taking income out of Brooks Brothers and I'm going to put it into the real estate investment trusts.
So it's fascinating in many ways.
One angle on it that's fascinating is, wait a second.
What is the future of malls?
Now, they are doubling down by basically buying the actual underlying retailers and then spinning them into these kind of operating companies and property companies with this authentic brands.
And then you have to wonder to yourself, well, wait a second.
Are malls kind of dying?
And are they just punting the ball down the field, like hoping that they'll get to live another day?
Or at these prices, is it like Super Smart?
And if Brooks Brothers comes back with a Brooks and Mortar presence, is it like the best investment ever?
But there's nothing that would give you confidence that they have any capacity to resuscitate these retail brands.
So authentic brands is supposed to be the person who's going to do that, but their reputation is more like a licenser, right?
Which is not about building a brand, right?
So it's fascinating.
The graveyard of retail is a fascinating place, it turns out.
I have to confess. I mean, I don't know how you guys feel, but this is the side of business that I just don't have that much of a taste for because there's a lot of financial engineering, structural engineering going on here that doesn't feel value creating.
And then even when I think about authentic brands group, even pure licensing, it's a form of kind of milking an asset.
There's not even clear, there's much to milk.
So everything here feels like the worst form of harvesting.
And you're reallocating value.
Yes. I totally agree, by the way, with everything you just said.
But it's also why bankruptcy and bankruptcies are so interesting because incentives get weird.
There's a lot of value reallocation that goes on.
And it is really fascinating, but not in an uplifting ways, young people.
Yes, I agree. But it is kind of an important reminder.
We talk about all this exciting stuff on the horizon with retail.
What does the tail end of that look like?
Well, I'm always delighted to help you understand what the tail end of all that optimism looks like.
I didn't mean it that, no actually it did.
Okay, Felix, do you have another one?
Yes. Do you remember the conversation we had a little while ago when we talked about PVC tubes?
Yes. And how long it took for the PVC market to take off.
So this is happening with another technology now that's been around for a long time.
And now it's gaining amazing prominence.
RFID. You know, the little tags?
And they essentially just identify where are the products.
The cost has declined by something like 80%.
And even the RFID readers are now much cheaper.
And this all happens against the background where you're desperately trying to figure out how to make the last mile profitable.
And for many businesses, I think the reality is you can.
So you want an Omni retail experience, but you want consumer to come to the store.
And RFID plays a big role in making that happen.
I give you three examples.
The first one is, you know, when you order something online and then you go to the store and they don't actually have it.
Total nightmare. That's just the worst of customer experiences.
So it becomes really important to have real -time inventory.
Lululemon now uses RFID tags.
And they're now at 98 % accuracy of their inventory, which is really quite amazing.
A second really interesting model, a handful of retailers do this.
Decathlon in Europe is an example where during the pandemic you discover people actually don't like to congregate.
And particularly I don't want to be in a line waiting for checkout.
So what if you shop the store the way you usually would?
You have an app and you scan the products.
You pay for them in app.
No checkout whatsoever.
Everything possible as a result of RFID.
And then the last and I think way out there model is something that Farfetch has done.
It's sort of morphed from a retailer to somewhat of a technology company.
And they are thinking about what will the fitting room of the future look like.
So you look at products online.
You're interested in a particular set of things.
You go to the fitting room and it's already there.
And then you think, oh my God, this might actually be great with a jacket.
And someone brings a jacket because there's an RFID tag.
The smart mirror recognizes what the jacket is.
You see it in five colors.
There's like 15 other suggestions what else you might buy.
Just like really amazing how the online experience and the in -store experience gets really tightly integrated.
And what I like about the story is the technology has existed for a long time.
But you couldn't really make use of it because it was just too expensive.
Prices come down and before you know it, RFID is everywhere.
And Felix, how costly is it to implement this?
So the readers are still the most expensive component, but the tax themselves, if they're passive tax, they can be as low as 10 cents under a dollar for sure.
That is fantastic. I love any story that makes you think about what happens when you begin to embed intelligence into things.
So if you think about the barcode, at the time the barcode was introduced, we thought, wow, there's so much information embedded in that.
That's amazing. And now you look at this RFID thing, you think, wow, there's so much more information.
And so my mind immediately goes to what's the next version?
How much more information can you embed?
Can you have dynamic pricing in a chip?
If you think about a product sitting on a shelf, and it's one among 20 bottles of something.
And it knows that it's surrounded by 19 other bottles, but it also knows when it's only surrounded by two other bottles.
And you can imagine the price changing as the scarcity increases.
Or if you have a bundle of different products and you're shopping, and then there's a third product that you can suggest.
Right, yes, fascinating.
So here, did you bring in another one?
Yeah, sure. Well, I'm going to continue on the graveyard theme from before.
In the fashion industry, there's something known as dead stock.
You're not kidding about this graveyard theme.
I know. But this is a much more uplifting story, which is all the material and textiles that are used in kind of haute couture and fashion houses.
But there's several properties that never get used and are excess.
Scraps. Scraps. Scraps.
But there's large amounts of it.
So LVMH has launched something called NonaSource.
And NonaSource is a platform for LVMH and all the different houses inside LVMH to take all their scraps.
And, you know, scraps makes it sound small, but these are like, you know, lots and lots of stuff.
And sell them to young designers who want to try it out.
And by the way, competing houses as well.
And for a long time, dead stock was kind of considered something that you don't really talk about and everything was just thrown away.
And it was important to throw it away because it was kind of considered proprietary, but it was also hugely wasteful.
And so this is an effort to just flip that on its head.
And especially because young designers, anybody can go on there and buy beautiful textiles and materials.
But it also just struck me in terms of the creativity it can unleash for young designers and independent designers who want to access that.
And then also just the savings and the lack of waste, right?
Because waste is part of that industry and it's a problem.
I was really just admiring of the fact that they took what had been like a taboo thing, which is you got to throw away all the scraps.
It's really important to throw away all the scraps because we don't want to let other people know what we're doing.
And they just turned it on its head and they're making it into a platform.
I love these stories of companies that figure out a way to take problems and turn them into solutions.
Exactly. So I'm looking at the website right now as you're describing this.
First of all, the materials are really beautiful.
They're very high -end materials as you would expect.
But if you think about these smaller independent designers, they need small batches, and yet they would love to have this kind of high quality.
And for them to source this stuff on their own would be incredibly expensive.
Right. And so to be able to get them in this very efficient way, it's really quite creative.
And it takes a big problem because I think waste is a big problem in that industry, right?
Mihir, what about the IP proprietary issue?
Isn't this a little bit of a concern?
It is. And I think you're right, Felix.
So they will not put on their certain kinds of things.
So there are certain patterns that you will not be able to get because they are considered part of IP, right?
But I think that was the concern that led them to kind of wasting everything.
And then they've basically decided to, no, let's look inside this and let's figure out what we can get out and what we can maybe do need to actually trash.
Oh, this is a nice one.
Yeah, it's a great story.
What about you, young me?
You got another one?
I have one more, yes.
I think dark stores are here to stay.
So during the pandemic, many retailers turned their stores, they had to shut them down.
They turned them into dark stores, meaning they were only used for pickup and delivery.
So you'd order online, and then you would go to the store, which would be dark, but then you would pick it up.
I think those are here to stay.
And I can imagine them proliferating in a similar way to Ghost Kitchens.
But I also think retailers are going to have to start to think of their stores as a real service.
And if you think about what makes services great, it's the match.
It's knowing what customers want in any given time and giving that to them.
So sometimes you want something quick, and so you give them what they want quickly.
Other times you want a really high touch experience.
And so you wrap them in some kind of high touch experience.
And I think in the same way, retailers are going to have to think about the person who walks into their store and wants to pick something up in a very seamless way that they have ordered online.
They want to make their purchase, and they want to get out.
And then I think there are other parts of the store where you want to create a more high fidelity experience, where it's super experiential and places where people want to linger.
But I think this idea that you can just use one model for both of those, and you can let the people who want to pick up something quickly have to fight their way through all the experiential stuff and wait in line with everyone else, I think that's going to feel increasingly frustrating to people.
And so I think this kind of internal segmentation is going to become really important, and the best retailers are going to get more refined at that.
Do you think it will happen along the flagship store versus everything else dividing line, flagship store, amazing customer experiences?
And then many other stores will more feel like pickup points?
I think both models are very possible, right?
So I can imagine some retailers going that route.
I can imagine other retailers.
I mean, Felix, I know you've studied Best Buy as an example.
Even before the pandemic, they had already begun to organize their store such that if you ordered something online and you wanted to come in quickly and pick something up, there was a dedicated place for that.
And then they had other parts of their store which were really dedicated to letting you experience the products and test them out and touch and feel.
And so they were already doing that, and I think they're probably further along than most retailers.
And so I think different stores are going to have to make some different choices.
But I do think that getting that match right and understanding that your customers are at very different places in the purchase funnel and meeting them where they are is going to be very important for retail success.
This makes me just think, Yungmi, there's a new Sweetgreen near where I live.
And their pickup window is, well, first off, it's a pickup window.
It is not go in and pick it up.
It is literally walk by and pick up.
And you don't enter the store.
And it's great. They've clearly designed that store for precisely this kind of segregation of these activities.
And it's great for the consumer because you don't want to go in the store, but the pickup window is spectacular.
And I think that people have so many choices now.
Like you can actually make the difference between you deciding to order from that line.
And similarly, do I order this thing from Best Buy or not?
Well, how much of a pain is it going to be to go pick it up?
And it's actually kind of a trivial.
Like the pickup window is kind of a trivial thing to do, right?
Meaning we're not talking about some high tech thing.
Like it's like a reconfiguration of space, right?
But it has these big payoffs.
OK, Pix. Me here. What did you bring?
Oh, not some graveyard thing, something cool.
No, I bring you a recipe.
Oh, OK. Look, s'mores are both fantastic and delightful, but also very difficult and not altogether well -constructed.
Totally agree. Overrated.
And overrated because why?
The chocolate doesn't really melt.
The graham crackers are not really good that structurally.
But you never get the right proportions of each thing and provide?
The proportions are all screwy.
Totally agree. Exactly.
I am here to help you.
There is a fantastic recipe on Epicurious .com, which I find to be generally very reliable.
It's an amazing website.
I love that website.
So careful, right? So thoughtful.
So careful, thoughtful.
And so they have s'mores cookies.
So here's the wonderful thing.
You basically are baking cookies.
You coat one side of them with chocolate, and then you use these two sandwiches and you create a cookie sandwich.
And you toast the marshmallows and you just put the marshmallows in between the two cookies and you have perfect ratios.
How is this not an Oreo?
Oh my God. No, it's chocolate wafers on both sides with marshmallow in the middle.
No, it's not a chocolate wafer.
It's a little bit more like a chocolate chip cookie, which is very chewy and has the kind of graham crackery taste, because it's got a lot of honey.
And then it's got this chocolate layer.
And then you get the marshmallows in the middle, which has nothing to do with Oreos.
I hear it. This is like saying, I've solved the problem of s'mores by making something that's not a s'more.
Okay, what is a s'more?
A s'more is chocolate marshmallow graham cracker.
Yes. And this is that, better constructed, easier to eat, more fun to make.
Could you tell the difference in a blind test?
Let's do a blind test.
Let me just tell you that my nephew, who is quite discerning, straight up, first words out of his mouth were, and he immediately said, next level.
Next level. Okay. We are both skeptical and the best you can do is your nephew.
You're just fishing for some samples.
I know you, Felix. No.
You're fishing for samples.
I actually think this probably is delicious.
I'm just not convinced that you get to call it a s'more.
Okay. I'm going to post the pictures and the recipe.
Okay. Dynamite. It's a game chain.
So, okay. I have a recommendation that's far more authentic.
What? So, my recommendation is I have started growing my own herbs.
Ooh, excellent. I recently got a gift and it was an herb kit, a kit to grow herbs in your kitchen.
And here's what's great about it.
First of all, you don't have to have a big garden.
You can do it inside.
And then secondly, I have always found that, you know, when you keep things like basil or cilantro or parsley in your fridge, it's not elegant.
It spoils very quickly.
It doesn't say fresh.
It doesn't look good.
I mean, there's no elegant way to do it.
Yeah. And this way you always have fresh herbs.
It's kind of amazing.
And it looks nice. And the payoff is huge in flavor.
Totally. And very cost effective.
Yes. Exactly. And it looks very nice.
It doesn't take up much room.
And of course, when you're cooking, you just feel so...
Yes. You feel like a pro.
You feel like a pro.
You feel like a pro.
Yeah. You are a pro, young me.
The recipe calls for basil and you just snap a little bit.
I mean, it is so authentic.
It's like deciding you're going to have s'mores and you get the campfire going because you want authentic s'mores.
Oh my God, she's not letting it go over here.
Did she know this? I'm going to make these for you.
I'm going to make these for you and you will eat your words and you will eat my s'mores.
It will take you back to the earth.
Oh, hello. Okay. Felix, what do you have?
I flee into what's hopefully neutral territory.
Okay. My pick is the music of a musician, Shabaka Hutchings.
He's a saxophone player out of London and his music is sort of one of these examples just of how much modern jazz has opened up to other influences.
The music is eminently danceable.
It's fun. It has so many of the characteristics of exciting jazz and then it's at one at the same time really almost unbelievable deeply, deeply socially engaged.
Often centered on the kinds of racist experience that you have as a black person in London.
He sometimes invites poets onto his recordings.
And even though you would think that's a very somber context, but then there's the groove.
And one of the interesting things that he talks about is before they record a song, he has the drums and the bass, the rhythm section.
He has them going for five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes before anyone plays.
And you can somehow hear the chemistry that builds up.
It's sort of like Fila Kuti style where you're really getting into the groove.
Yeah. And you can just feel that.
And then having these really contemporary like talking about real issues that we face today, it's just an absolutely amazing mix.
Wow. And Felix, if you don't know a lot about jazz, is it accessible?
This is what I find so amazing about many of these newer jazz artists that sort of bring in rap, bringing other cultural references, jazz and reggae jazz, and basically anything you can...
It really builds bridges.
You don't have to have gone to kindergarten with John Coltrane in order to enjoy it.
It really opens up, I think, your music in a really promising way.
And I love this combination of making really just fun, exhilarating music and not letting go of the social engagement at one and the same time.
Right. This sounds fantastic.
This looks fantastic.
It does. Maybe the song called Hustle is a great first song to listen to.
A great place to start.
I got it right here.
I got it going on. Chewbacca Hutchings.
Okay. This looks fantastic.
All right. Very good.
Okay. Good picks. Guys, we have to end.
It's late. Yeah. I hear.
Close this out. Well, let's make sure and thank Peter Linney and our sound engineer, who is the marshmallow in our s'mores cookies.
Oh my gosh. And you are listening to After Hours on the HBR Podcast Network.
Thanks everyone. Yeah.
