Most people burn out chasing success.
But what if fun is actually the secret key to sustainable growth?
Welcome to today's conversation where we challenge everything you thought you knew about happiness, success and well-being.
If you're a high performer, an ambitious entrepreneur or just someone feeling stuck in that burnout cycle, this episode is for you.
My guest is dr mike rucker, a behavioral scientist and the author of The Fun Habit.
He's here to flip the script on toxic hustle culture and show us why fun isn't a distraction it's a necessity.
And by the end you'll walk away with a fresh take on how your relationship with joy, leisure and play of fun and see how these small moments of joy build a foundation for real meaning and resilience.
Something that people might not appreciate on the surface is the fact that you're a businessman.
You had several entrepreneurial endeavors, and now the book that you've just written is on fun.
And so I think people are going to.
They're kind of confused here, mike.
So what led you to talk about fun?
So i was lucky enough to be a charter member of the international positive psychology association.
So when you know, segleman and cheek set me high came forth i mean i guess it was really segleman, you know he had his book authentic happiness coming out and.
But you know people have been following cheek set me eyes work for a while And I guess just to back up a little bit for folks that don't know what positive psych is,
Right.
It's essentially a facet of psychology that was brought forth because we had all of these tools from psychology that could lead to betterment.
But we weren't using them except for poor mental health up until about the turn of the millennium.
Right.
And so what these folks did with a bunch of other folks like myself and academics and practitioners, was is we created this group to bring those forward right.
And so we're talking about gratitude and mindfulness and flow and these things that can help anyone with regards to better mental hygiene.
At the onset, because we hadn't talked about happiness at all.
Yet we talked about that a lot, right.
And we were all like, hey, we want to help people be more happy and we want to help people thrive.
What we didn't realize is paradoxically, over indexing on this idea of happiness, we were making some of the most unhappy people.
Right.
So we've now come to find out that if we get people to sort of continually ruminate on their disposition or where do they fit with regards to the social structure, that's a constant thing.
Right.
We now have a term for it, you know, the hedonic treadmill that we use commonly.
And this idea of always being positive, we call toxic positivity.
But when the book was kind of coming forth, those ideas weren't front and center.
Right.
But we were starting to learn it.
And so how I started to look at fun was OK if happiness it outside of the construct of just studying it and quantifying it is problematic.
It's not like a great thing to talk about with regards to helping people move forward.
What is it?
Right.
And so we now talk about mindfulness more broadly because we know it's good to be centered.
But fun is really an ode to that.
But you can also be joyful in the moment.
And those moments, once we index them over time, are really what you know creates the scaffolding for us to be able to navigate the bad times.
Right.
And so but. we've kind of villainized fun, right?
Especially here in North America on all sorts of different levels, right?
With regards to just looking at fun as whimsical, right?
Like you know, the influencers that we kind of you know poke fun at that are clicking their heels on the beach like that's what we market as fun, right.
And so I'll work with people that are like well, I'm not that, so I must be an unfun person, which is so unfortunate, right?
Because I met with your background in psychology.
You know the number one sort of vehicle for getting into a space you don't want to be is when maladaptive things bleed into your identity.
So if you keep telling yourself day after day, well fun, is this what I see on Instagram or social media, and I'm not that, so I must be unfun, then you start to believe it, right.
And so one we need that redefinition.
But then two, more broadly, just with regards to leisure and access time to enjoy things outside of work.
We're so time poor when it comes to you know where we are living in hustle culture.
And so I'm not one to say like we need to create all this space, you know, so that you can go and, you know, live your best life.
But we, you know, similar to sleep, right.
Where it's like, if you're not sleeping five to six hours, you know, or less than that.
Rather um, We need to figure out how to get you to at least seven, so that you can have a baseline.
Right.
And because that creates the platform for living a good life.
We're now finding the same with leisure.
Like if you're living your whole 168 hours in a week and you're not enjoying any of that time.
We're seeing that be a pretty straight line to the record levels of burnout we see across all vocations.
What did you just like?
Solve the universe in four minutes, man.
That that's brilliant because we touched on so many things.
We touched on positive psychology, we talked touch on happiness, we talked about society.
We talked about uh, what impacts our perception of what fun actually is?
It's so, it's so profound because really we're recognizing that Our understanding or misunderstanding of fun and happiness oftentimes could be one of the reasons why we struggle to experience fun and achieve happiness.
So let's actually start off with some of the biggest misconceptions we have around happiness, around joy, around fun.
Because I think there is a healthy dose of unlearning that needs to happen in order for us to fully appreciate this.
Yeah, to start with the biggest one, like the biggest light bulb as I was putting the book together is this idea that it is part of the fabric of living not just an enjoyable life, but one of purpose and productivity.
Right.
And so the big scientific concept behind this is called the hedonic flexibility principle.
The landmark study that I cite in the book was really well done.
MIT, Harvard, and Stanford, 28,000 participants.
And they went to go out and answer that age-old philosophical question are we truly always seeking pleasure or trying to avoid pain?
Right,
And so it should be no surprise that the folks that were in painful situations right like just burnt out, not finding joy in life, they sought out poor forms of escapism.
Right.
These are the folks that, like spend way too much time on social media displacing that discomfort of a boring day or you know whatever frustration they have.
You see things like alcohol use and you know just things that aren't keeping you in a state that you feel good about.
But the surprising finding there was folks that were integrating joy and fun in their life by deliberate design.
So not necessarily going out and doing all of these you know fanciful things but finding pockets of joy within their day to day.
Once they found that their fun cup was filled, they were the ones that sought bigger challenges.
These were the folks that wanted to go seek out growth.
They didn't go and seek out just further pleasure, right?
They weren't going to Burning Man every other weekend.
They were like, OK, I'm good.
I've got the resilience now and the base.
Like, I don't want to have any more fun.
I want to go now and grow.
And so, in that regard, living a joyful life, you know, creates this platform for not only growing, but figuring out who you are right.
Wow, that's fascinating.
And I think it's very counterintuitive, especially when you think about the just you know we're rooted here the Western mentality around work ethic where it's like hey listen, I got to get my work done, then I can have fun.
Fun is always an afterthought.
But really what we're seeing here in the research that you're citing is that fun really is foundational to the type of life that we want to live.
Yeah because, if you think about it right, I think like once we start to slice it, it becomes more intuitive.
But you're exactly right.
Right.
Like, you know, and the problem is like similar.
And, you know, sometimes this analogy works, sometimes it doesn't.
But you know folks that are that are familiar with obesity research understand, like the, like McKenzie did a big study on it.
Right.
And it's, it's the, the problem is multifaceted.
It's not plate size.
It's not, you know, urban design.
And like we walk less, like it's, it's complicated.
And for any one person, it's going to be a subset of those things.
Right.
And so the same with regards to this, you know, fun star sort of epidemic that we see like Everyone is going to have different reasons, but there are a host of commonalities.
So one is, right, that Puritan work ethic, right?
Like some folks have been raised under this paradigm that somehow, if they're enjoying themselves, that that's a quote, unquote guilty pleasure, right.
And so you should feel bad about the fact that you went out with your friends because wow, you could have been being productive, and productive is virtuous right.
And then the paradox there is.
You know I'll get back on track, but that we know that the folks that have those constraints so that they save their energy and understand when to be productive and when to finally recharge their batteries, ironically produce more right.
So it's like yeah, you work 60 hours a week, but you're so ground down you're only producing one widget, right?
Where, if you're working 40 hours but preserving that energy, so during those 40 hours you can produce two widgets.
As a very basic math example of this, That person working 40 hours is creating 80 units of productivity versus the 60.
You know, the guy that's like, well, you know, I'm grinding out.
I'm I'm a workaholic.
Well, but you're you're not producing anything, you know.
And so that that means that's one thing that needs to get course corrected.
The other is just access, right?
Like we don't have very much access.
And so the US is the second worst in the developed world for giving access to leisure, with regards to PTO, to 10 days worth of work for one year's.
You know, 10 days off for one year's worth of work.
The one country below us is Micronesia at nine on average, right?
But we don't have much control over that, right?
Like that's a, problem that needs to be fixed at the top.
I think what's more profound about those stats is we value it so little that in any given year only 50 of us even take any of that.
One out of two employees don't take any time off in a year.
And so I get that that's somewhat rooted in privilege, but it's something that we need to examine because we know that that's also another thing that leads to burnout.
And then the I would say like the third biggest phenomena.
And like I said, there's still a laundry list here.
Right.
But the third is this idea of the sandwich generation.
And that is that, you know, fortunately, our parents are living longer than they ever have.
And we're having kids later than we've ever had in any modern society.
Right.
And so for the first time ever, our parents can't help us raise our children.
In fact, we're taking care of our parents, too.
So we find ourselves in this time deficit.
But because of that we need to have these measures that protect us, because we're having to work harder than we ever have.
And so the irony there is again, to be able to show up as the best version of yourself, you have to have something left to get.
Right.
And so being able to find these moments, even if it's just a few hours here and there, become so important so that you do have the capacity to, you know, give some energy out.
I like to think about it as, you know, we're always in perpetual motion, right?
And so are you in this downward spiral where you're grinding out and you know you don't have anything to give the next day.
Or are you preserving enough energy that you are, you know, in this accretive state where you're building an upward spiral?
So each day is building on itself.
And I again.
Ironically, the folks that can design a life further in that upward spiral are some of the most productive people.
And some of these folks that I studied for the book are like, you know, big high achievers.
We're not just talking about again.
You know folks that you know are living the nomadic lifestyle and have dialed it in.
You know the Tim Ferriss four hours.
You know work week.
Even he will admit that that was just something to sell books, right.
I where is that blend, right?
So that you're finding joy in the things that you do.
You're also enjoying your loved ones, right?
Because we know that lack of connection is another piece.
That's definitely on the list, right?
The Good Life, which is Robert's great book.
You know that 50-year Harvard study that showed that loneliness is another key component to all of this.
And I would argue and posit that fun is a nice salve to you know, fix that problem.
Because when you're looking for those opportunities to connect with others, fun generally is that thing that you're.
You know we're.
Before we hit record, we were talking about your wonderful Thanksgiving, right.
And that was, you know, an invitation to go enjoy your loved ones.
But so many of us forsake that.
And we're like okay, you know, we'll get to it during Christmas, instead of trying to figure out how can we create these micro moments and within the year, which are much more important than those big events that we kind of save for temporal landmarks?
This is brilliant because, to that point, I think, a lot of times we can convince ourselves that we always have more time for fun.
And then think about COVID years.
I remember so many times people were like, oh, I'll hit this trip next year.
I'll do it next year, next year.
And then, wow, the whole world is shut down, right?
You never know what's going to happen.
But it's a lie that we often tell ourselves to deprive ourselves from that which is essential.
And I wonder, too, when it comes down to this, we have Rene Girard with Mimetic Desire.
A lot of times, the people that are most aspirational.
When it comes to the business world, or whether or not it's like sports or whatever, we often idolize the people who are working the hardest.
We idolize the hard work and the process even more than the outcome itself.
And obviously hard work has its place.
But then sometimes you get into this place where you vilify yourself for resting.
I remember just realizing that one of the breakthroughs I had when it comes to being present with my family was that there was an underlying belief that any time not spent working was unproductive.
Yeah.
And so I was like, oh, family time is unproductive.
And I kept on thinking about work like I should do this.
So, when we think about this, before we even get to the things that we've already been talking about, which are the actual interventions, I'd like to explore a little bit deeper the beliefs that hold us back.
Because it seems like today in the business world, there is a lot of status issues that is given to people based exclusively on how maladaptive their work, their work-life balance, is.
Yeah.
So there are a few things to unpack there, right?
With regards to Renee's work, I think what we point to is survivorship bias, right?
And so we tend to celebrate the survivors.
And yet, if you look at any of this data in mass, Right.
Then there's so many casualties along the way and people don't understand the price they pay for these kind of accolades.
Right.
And so generally, if you have a pragmatic discussion of like OK, you can have this, but these are all the things that it's going to cost you.
Most reasonable people would never pay that toll.
Yet we don't talk about the cost for that type of that level of success.
Right.
And so. you know, you have like, I don't want to pick somebody out, but like Tom Brady's an interesting example, right?
Like, yeah, he knew the cost.
So are you Tom Brady?
Like, do you want to give up your lovely wife?
Do you want kids that probably don't like you that much so that you can add this thing?
Maybe you are, right?
So I never like to villainize that because, you know, my mentor is Michael Gervais.
He works with these peak performers and he'd be the first to admit to like Some folks are willing to give it all up.
Right.
Because, you know, they they want that thing.
And so if you're so focused, that's what you want to do, then great.
Right.
And so I'm only adding that as a classification.
What I'm saying is that most of us do want a well-rounded life.
If you look at like the work of Bronnie Ware and now there's been a couple of other, you know studies that from palliative care folks that have replicated her work.
These regrets of folks you know when they're in their 60s and 70s that have given it all away and now wish they could get it back.
You brought up the construct of time, right?
It's the only resource that we can't get more of.
And yet we're willing to give so much away.
And so what's the underpinning so that I actually answer your question?
I think there, you know, you could fall back onto Alan Watts's work and this idea that, especially in North America, we've been raised, you know, since kids, through this lens of meritocracy.
And is meritocracy bad?
Not really.
I mean, it provides that charis to get us to the next level.
It gamifies our success to some degree so that we follow you know the paths of others and look for mentorship so that we can level up.
But at some point I would posit that you need to get out of this.
Where do I fit in?
Rat race right.
And generally some point you know in your 30s or 40s and figure out where do you fit.
You know, Excuse me.
Get out of this mindset of where do you rank?
Sorry, I misspoke and figure out where do you fit?
And so I think more eloquently how can I get myself into this we situation instead of this me situation?
Because what we know is that when we're thinking about how can I strive and how can I rank within the social fabric,
Right.
It can be good fuel, especially when you have a ton of energy and you don't have a family you need to support and you're willing to make some sacrifices to get you to a certain level.
But at some point you want to start to figure out how can I feel a level of contentment?
And that really is how do I fit into this life and how can I create relationships and partnerships with the things that I enjoy and the people that I enjoy?
Because once you do that, then you start to feel part of a bigger collective, right?
And the benefits of that are insurmountable.
But the big ones.
I stole this from Lisa Feldman Barrett is as soon as you feel smaller because you're a part of something bigger, all of your problems seem smaller too right.
When it's just you and you striving, any problem is just on your shoulders, right?
That's why we see also like a lot of these measures that we talk about, and you probably remember some of this research.
The upside of living in an individualistic society is when we get these big wins.
They're ours right.
Like I just won the race, you know, like I got this prize.
And so, you know, there's a lot of excitement around that.
But when the slings and arrows naturally come at us, they're ours to hold, right?
And that's what's tearing us down.
We're, you know, in more collective societies where families celebrate the win.
Yeah, it might not be as exciting because you know you need to share some of that, but when you know the bad stuff happens, you have folks to carry you with you, and so you know there's pros and cons to that, but you know we can go back to meritocracy being one of the main levers.
You know this idea that you constantly have to strive to get to the next level and that doesn't end until you retire.
And unfortunately, here now, right like with the way the state of the social fabric, they're saying 67 is that age.
And probably for my kids, it's gonna be even older.
I meant that there's not a lot of fun things you can do in your 70s.
So figuring out how can you create micro moments for you to enjoy some of life, whether that's a sojourn, a sabbatical or at its most extreme.
I bring this up.
I was giving a keynote And someone came up because we're talking about time poverty.
And she's like, you're right.
You know, here I'm part of the sandwich generation.
I can't take holidays anymore, but I figure out how I can take all the hours.
And so I make sure that my lunch break is something that lights me up each time.
And in line with the hedonic flexibility principle and you know, not just her story, but a bunch of social science the folks that do even just take breaks, you know midday, to enjoy something outside of work show up the second half of work a lot more productive.
So you know it's true at a macro level and it's true at a micro level that you know folks that just find these moments to at least do something that fills them up are the ones that can tackle things.
And we haven't even gotten to the fact that, if you're doing the information work, it also enables you a better capacity to think in an on-runner fashion.
Right.
And I think most people intuitively understand that, too, when we're depleted.
Right.
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I just want to solve it now so I can go to bed.
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There are some, maybe startups or many enterprises, and I don't want to mention anyone, but some of them they like buy ping pong tables or many things for people to enjoy.
But at the end of the day, they put so many goals and people end up like working and not using all these fancy things that they have.
So do they really believe in that or they just do it because they should do it?
No, we have like all academics, right?
We have to give everything our silly name so we can put our TM on it.
But we call that forced fun now.
And man, the research there is really fun to read.
So yeah.
There's kind of this overarching thought that those were always tools to keep people within the workplace.
So, yeah, they might be like little respites.
But the reason that the ping pong table is, you know, in the cafeteria or in a room on the corporate campus is because they don't want you to go home.
Right.
They're hoping you can take your little break and then get back and work a little bit later.
So, you know, silly sock days, ping pong tables.
I mean, it's now turned into a meme, which I love, right?
Like, oh, of course, I don't want my bonus.
I want your pizza party.
That one's my favorite.
But the studies that I love the most and there's a few of them is this idea that and leaders especially need to hear this right is that What is fun to you is generally not fun to the employee.
Like anyone that understands social determination theory knows this, because autonomy is like there's a reason that that's number one out of the three.
And so like, if you're a leader and you're like, I'm going to take my you know subordinate out to a fun lunch, that subordinate's not having fun.
They're still wearing their work mask and their understanding is that this is something they're obligated to do.
So, to answer your question, if you're trying to create a fun environment at work, you want to figure out how can you add elements of autonomy in there so that someone can actually choose what they want to do instead of prescribing what you think you know fun Friday is going to look like.
And so that's why you see a lot of, you know, forward thinking companies actually, you know, create Half Day Fridays so that that person can choose the second half of their Friday what they're going to do for fun, because they have given you all they can, Monday through Thursday.
That's really smart.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I want to talk about time a little bit more too, because one of the things I started doing as the leader of AI is thinking kind of like a general manager of a sports franchise.
And I realized there's some people out here who just don't take breaks.
Simone.
And so there were several times with multiple employees where I'm like no, we're scheduling a meeting.
Great.
And now you have a deliverable by the end of the week.
You tell me when you're taking vacation time and you're.
I don't want you to do anything like work related and I cannot tell you what to do outside of work, but I hope that you do something for yourself, because a lot of times you just take that time to just catch up on tasks and whatnot.
But I think it's just important for people to take the time, but they feel guilty taking the time because the reality is in a lot of corporate spaces.
It's kind of like a trap.
Oh, you do have vacation.
You're taking vacation.
Interesting.
Okay, take your vacation.
It's like, whoa, did I just fall for a trap here?
So I think something that would be interesting to explore is how people can negotiate for more time.
Because I know people are intuitively understanding this.
And I also understand that there is an imbalance between the reality and objectivity of the time and the emotional weight we put behind time too.
So how can we start to find those pockets of peace and create more time than we can utilize for fun?
Yeah, that's a good point.
I think often times folks do forget that they can also negotiate their PTO.
And so it's not going to work every time, of course, but I have several success stories where they got the first round of their package and they had the forethought to be like wait a second, I'm losing out.
Most of the times it's because they saw the loss unfortunately, but as a cue to remember that that is part of your package.
So if that's something that's important to you and it should be we've just gotten into why it should be ask if you have that possibility.
And then the other is in line with.
Your question is do you have the ability to take a sabbatical or a sojourn?
I think that's another thing that folks often don't realize that if you can create a pitch that makes sense to whoever you're serving, oftentimes like taking a month off will allow you to come back and do so much better.
Right.
Even for my book.
I was working for an amazing company, Active Wellness, when it first came out and I said Hey, this is very important to me.
I would like two months so I can do this in an enjoyable way, in line the brand right.
And at first, you know, they wanted to understand it.
So it did truly become a negotiation to make sure that, like you know, I wasn't leaving them in an exposed position.
But so I created that ability, you know, by design and negotiating through it, so that I could create a sabbatical that would allow me, You know, the privilege for coming back right where I left off.
And so is PTO negotiable?
Absolutely.
You know, work from home is getting harder and that's a complex issue, you know, and there's interesting research on each side.
That would be a whole podcast on itself.
And but then also, I think the sabbatical is the biggest one that we often don't talk about. right?
That most people would have that after the five-year mark.
And there's been some really good research on that with regards to the benefits of it, how it's generally more accessible than most people would think.
They're usually getting their own way, right?
Like there's no way, or they think like I'm replaceable, which is unfortunate as well.
But if you negotiate it and set the stage, right?
And I'm at what an amazing tool, especially you know you're a parent, I'm a parent like that sweet spot of you know, when the kids are between nine and 13.
So they're going to remember that big trip to Europe that you might only be able to afford once in a lifetime, right?
And you take it and you honestly do it instead of trying to, you know, jam six weeks into a one week.
You know, spread you strategically, figure out when is that right thing, and create these core memories with folks that might go sideways if you only had five days because Rome happened to rain, that whole time because of bad luck or whatever it is.
Beautiful.
No, you're absolutely right.
And I think it's important for us to have that reminder, the fact that we can do this, because I don't want people to listen to this episode and think it's just a merely entertaining intellectual exercise, where it would be like, oh you know hypothetically, it would be great if I had time to have fun.
Well, on to work.
No, you can actually. do something about this.
And I like how we progress through this, where we're talking initially about what fun and happiness, what those things are really, but then also what gets in the way of us even being willing to drive toward that.
And now how do we negotiate for more of it?
You did remind me of one other thing I want to make sure I touched on though.
Oh yeah, go ahead.
It's not necessarily asking for more time, but one of the most powerful tools that I found is the transition ritual outside of work.
And so there's been really good research, even companies that historically grind folks out.
You know, like consulting companies, I think one of the bigger pieces of research was done with Boston Consulting Group, if I'm not mistaken.
And that is like, how do you preserve time outside of work?
So like, whether that's no meeting days, or It's at 6 p.m.
I'm not answering emails because this is time preserved for my family.
Right.
And so what does that ritual look like for you that, you know, cognitively your work is done?
And you know, even if it's only that three hours, you know 7 pm when you get home to 10 like work isn't going to creep in there.
Because what we do know is if you're on your phone, like if you allow notifications to interrupt time with your wife, That's work time.
It's not family time.
And people trick themselves, right?
They're like, well, I was here.
You weren't here.
You weren't present, you know?
And we know you're just chewing on that work problem.
You never left work.
And some folks will chew on that work problem until their head hits the pillow.
And what's the first thing you reach for when you wake up?
Especially if it's your alarm, right?
And I'm not here to villainize phones.
I'm just saying that You put behavioral friction in those things and all of a sudden it gets better.
And nine times out of 10, it has no consequence.
We make believe, we catastrophize these consequences.
I might miss that important email, you know, from eight to 10.
Like you're not, it's just been proven you're not, you know, there might be that one time, you know, it's like quarters, right?
Or it's like, no, you need to throw all this away.
And like one thing that you might have wanted, right, gets thrown away.
But the upside was shrewd away all that other stuff.
And so, you know, the risk reward paradigm was still in your favor.
And yet you perseverate on that one thing that you lost.
It's the same thing, you know, with being able to turn down like it's just never a problem.
And yet we make up these things like, oh, but I might miss out on something.
So if you can create a ritual where you're like, nope, this is a social contract with myself.
I'm shut down. then you really are able to preserve that time and then you get to dictate it, right?
Maybe you don't have agency over your time when you're at work because it's a challenging job.
My doctoral work was with physicians primarily.
They don't have a lot of choice, especially OR physicians, right?
But they do have some liberty with regards to what we call pajama time, because the folks, the physicians that really do feel a level of service to their work.
We'll get caught in that loop and at pajama time,
So when you're answering ERM messages, you know when you're sitting in your bed and you really should be going to sleep.
Using physicians as an example, since I brought it up.
What we know is, if they continue down that path, they lose empathy for their patients, and a lack of empathy for your patients has a direct correlation to patient outcomes.
So they're not just doing a disservice to themselves, because eventually they're going to want to leave the vocation.
They're actually.
If why they got into this job in the first place was to help out patients, they're actually eroding that capability as well through this weird lens that they think they're doing their job better by just trying to finish out the day right.
Yeah, this is interesting because we've talked about fun and happiness in terms of an achievement.
Sometimes we can think about it that way.
Let me phrase it this way.
A lot of times people think about that as an achievement, like an end state, but we don't talk about how the lack of those things fundamentally change who we are right.
Because we are the collection of our repeated activities, but we often don't think about how those repeated activities change and shape the way our brain works and operates through neuroplasticity.
So really, what we're seeing is that we, through these decisions, even though they might come from some level of valor or a good place, we might say okay well, I'm going to.
I'm going to beat myself up to get this work done all the time.
But then in this, in the process, we're turning ourselves into a person that we ultimately don't want to become.
And so it's not just about the feeling.
It's also about our identity.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
We touched on that a little bit already.
But um, if it seeps into your identity, it's so insidious and it becomes much harder to then unanchor.
Right.
So the identity is a big thing.
If you start to believe like that life is just joyless or somehow it's your fault, which is even worse.
Right.
And folks that are stuck in in these vocations were, like you know, again this comparison trap, like they'll see someone that can do it.
And maybe because their circumstance is completely different.
You know the, the dedicated father who's comparing themselves to an internist that like, still has the vigor and vitality only because they don't have kids yet, you know, or whatever it is.
Right.
And that's the poor example.
But you know where I'm going with this, that everyone's life circumstance is different.
And yet we're going to compare ourselves to others, not knowing, only seeing kind of the curated, you know life that they've decided to show us, you know, because we generally don't see their challenges and
So that's one piece.
And then the other is that that I just want to touch on is, as adults, it's really comfortable to get into those grooves.
Right.
I mean we do rely on heuristics and patterns, because when we can put ourselves in autopilot it becomes a little bit easier.
But there are multiple consequences to that.
Right.
There's certainly upside because we know what's coming next.
But the consequence is we stop dilating time so we can get in really quickly.
We can get into this trap of. uh, time feeling like it's passing us by.
And so that's another really interesting upside of fun and novelty, because it can, you know, it's a pattern stop.
Um, and so once we start to create those memories, that's how new neural pathways start to get um developed anyways.
So we know fun is a great sort of useful tool for creating neuroplasticity, because what doesn't happen is if we are living our lives in a habituated way.
Um, The way that I like to think about it one of the neuroscientists that I interviewed for the book it's like if you had 100 copies of The Fun Habit right, would you keep all 100 on your shelf or would you throw away 99 and go?
Oh yeah, I remember at one point I had 100 copies.
And that's the same thing we do with our experiences, right?
Like if you're a lawyer and you're going in every day and it's kind of rinse and repeat, you're like yeah, I went to work this year.
And that's the memory you store.
Right.
So figuring out ways, whether it's through fun or any other mechanism you know, to create some novelty and hopefully it is enjoyable.
Novelty really is important for a whole host of reasons, because
One, it breaks that cycle.
But then two, to circle back to identity.
Then you remind yourself that you have the agency to build a life that you want.
And so, whether that's a joyful one or one that's rooted in purpose, or whatever is valuable to you, then you can refocus on that and push yourself forward rather than you know, again being trapped in a routine.
We need to now have a conversation about time dilation because this is disturbing.
OK, because what I'm hearing is that because we hear so many people say, man, time is going faster.
And we understand that that often comes with just age perception.
But what you've introduced is that a lot of times time just slips away because we don't have any deviation or meaningful deviation from the routine.
So you look back on one one year is like, what did you do?
Is that I took care of my family and went to work.
So you did two things like that's it.
And so sometimes.
So what you're saying is that sometimes it seems like time is slipping away because we're not injecting enough fun for us to slow down and enjoy and experience life.
That's exactly right.
And at a physiological level, I think maybe a better analogy than the book one is each memory is a piece of tape, right?
Like if you're old enough to remember VHS cassettes, right?
Like as we're learning new things.
It doesn't you know.
If you've stuck around, by now, hopefully you're a believer in fun.
But if you don't want to believe in fun, let's just just talk about growth learning, whatever your jam is, as long as it's something that breaks you out of that habitual behavior.
Like each one of those things, learn a new thing.
You have an enjoyable experience with your family that you want to remember.
Right, you're extending that tape, and so that is the best way, because if you look back at the tapestry of your life now, you have all these things stored in your brain.
You've created the scaffolding of neural pathways.
We know and this comes from, you know, brain science this isn't just conjecture that the folks that have lived a habituated life, they don't have that gray matter.
They haven't created any memories right, because they haven't needed to, and so you know how do you do those things, and in a previous life, when lumosity and and happy neuron were things, I was helping some of those companies go to market.
And so we thought that, you know, like something as simple as playing a game could really help.
We now understand that that specificity kind of just stays.
So just you know like Sudoku has its place.
But if that's all you do again, you're not building too much more, right?
You're just getting better at that one thing.
But it's as simple as like going and engaging people with different perspectives.
It's again, you know, mastering different skills and having a corpus of things that you're interested in.
But my argument and what I say is that we should create those memories with loved ones as well.
I think those become the richest things that we look back at.
This is somewhat standing on the shoulders of broaden and build theory from Barbara Fredrickson.
But as we broaden and build our knowledge base and our connection with others and feel that we are a part of something bigger.
Again, whether that's a thing or people, we know that that builds resilience and also builds cognitive reserve.
We have to be to be really aware of the time concessions that we give to in our work.
So, for instance, our boss can say, hey, can you do this little thing?
But little and then another thing, another thing, another thing.
Then it is a big thing.
Now, to put an example, Kwame is fully booked for the next three months.
Fully booked.
And I receive three emails per day saying hey, can I have a small chat with Kwame just in the next month?
And I could do it for one person.
But then I'll give more and more concessions and then Kwame would be burned out and no one will care.
So I have to say no and no and no and no and no.
And for many people, it's like, oh, my God, but it's just 10 minutes.
I just need 30 minutes.
But it's like taking care of ourselves, right?
It's like not being aware of what we sign or what we agree on, right?
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think the folks that I see doing it the best are the ones that understand that play it forward that every yes is saying no to other things.
And when you look at it through that frame, it becomes really helpful.
And if you're an empathetic person, it can get tough because some folks are just selfish.
So you might get, you know, folks that want to dump that on you, their attention, because you know they have all the time in the world to give, and the fact that.
So they devalue what time is right.
And that's just part of leveling up, i think, is understanding the worth of time and, you know, providing ways that maybe you can scale that type of opportunity.
Um, i've seen creators, you know, create I.
These are my office hours.
I'll be here, you know.
If you want to ask me questions, I'll give away one or two hours a week right, um?
Or, excuse me, a month a week.
So I don't recommend anyone giving away two hours a week um, but you know.
So there are ways to scale that.
But you're exactly right and I think what I would fall back on is what I originally said and that for every yes, it means you're saying no to other things and the folks that really fundamentally understand that um preserve their ability to engage in effective choice architecture.
I think that the perfect argument for negotiation.
You gave me the perfect argument because before the interview, I thought something like oh, it's easy for him because he's not looking out for my money.
But actually, you're looking out for my money in the long term, right?
So if we are asked something, we can say hey, we cannot.
I cannot do it because I need to work for you.
I need to do it.
I need to perform better for you.
So if you put more and more things on my plate, I will decrease and that will affect you in the long term, right?
That's absolutely right.
Yeah, I think it's important too, because I mean, at the end of the day, one thing that I've recognized and this is a bit of a negative orientation, but I've recognized it has a positive influence in my perception of it is that people are going to be disappointed and you need to pick your disappointment right.
It has to be distributed in the appropriate ways.
And so you either say no to somebody, set a boundary.
They're going to experience disappointment, which is not necessarily negative in the sense that you did something wrong.
It will have a negative impact.
Now it's up to them to engage in emotional intelligence and emotion management and, In common parlance, get over it.
And the other thing is too.
The alternative is I don't.
I choose not to disappoint them because I'm more concerned about their well-being than mine.
And so in order to do what they want me to do, I end up disappointing myself.
And a lot of times people who struggle in conflict, who are unwilling to set those boundaries.
They just sit there consistently disappointing themselves, while making everybody else happy at their own expense.
And so when you think about disappointment as something that needs to be equitably distributed, you have to recognize that it can't always be you bearing the burden of disappointment.
Yeah.
And I think to pair it with you know construct that I like to play with it's.
What are you comparing that to?
Right.
Like so um it, And maybe more broadly like are you in the same chapter or period of life that this particular person is?
Because I think one of the things that is difficult is that, and especially now with the polarization of ideology, is we have to pick a side.
Right.
And yet so many of these things kind of fall within a spectrum when we look at choice architecture.
And so what do I mean by that?
It's like this person's stage in life.
Again, going back to Simone's example, they probably don't value time in a way that you see your time because they don't know your life.
Right.
And so, for you, what you're giving away, is you understand it, because you know you're the hero of your story.
Right.
But like they don't get it because no one is the hero of someone else's story. right?
And so they're just thinking like, well, it would be so easy for me to give away 30 minutes, right?
Um, in negotiations, we talk about BATNA, right?
So this particular person's BATNA is probably all screwed up.
And to your point, that's not your fault, right?
So yeah, you disappointed them.
Que sera is what would be my attitude about that.
Um, but another thing I think that's important.
That's like adjacent to this um, whether you're looking at scientific studies or you're just trying to evaluate someone's life,
Right.
I was having this conversation early on.
I think it was before I wrote the book with Noah Kagan.
He's the creator of AppSumo.
So big grinder.
He's known for being like one of the first that meant and Facebook.
And so, you know, I was bright eyed and bushy tailed.
And, you know, so I wasn't giving nuance to a lot of my ideas back then.
I'm like bro, like how do you, you know?
Like say that working 80, 90 hours a week in your 20s was like fabulous.
I meant you must have been burnt out.
And he's like Mike.
Remember it was my early 20s and we were in Silicon Valley, like I was having so much fun with these guys, you know like.
So yeah, it was 80 hours a week, but probably 50 of it was play in my because we were doing like hackathons.
And so I realized I didn't, I wasn't putting myself empathetically in his shoes in that period of his life.
Working 90 hours a week was absolutely the right recipe, right?
Because look at what allowed him to level up later.
Should that be what he's doing now?
Absolutely not.
And he'll tell you the same, right?
But so understanding that context.
So in your example, Simone, it's the context of him not understanding the worth.
And then in Noah's, where he challenged me.
It was me not understanding that In that stage of life, you know in his early 20s, that was the fun.
You know, he wasn't burning out.
That's exactly where he wanted to be.
See, this is fascinating because we, as children, fun is simple and easy, but it's interesting because it gets much more complex as we get older.
And I remember I was talking to one of my friends, Dori Clark.
She was on the podcast.
Oh, she's great.
And we had a little bit of a breakthrough moment.
It turned into a micro therapy session where she was talking about how you want to integrate fun into what you do.
And she's asked, what do you do for fun?
I said, well, I, I work out in the morning.
I have a nice little gym community.
And then I enjoy spending time with my family too.
And she said that, sounds great.
I do not doubt that those are enjoyable, but it sounds like both of those are really associated with some level of productivity too.
And so is there anything you do just purely for the fun of it?
And I was like, oh my gosh, have I become a boring person and not even realized it?
And I think it's important for us to again kind of end where we began with the definition of fun, because it's what is fun for one person might not be fun for another person.
And, like with that example that you just gave, what is fun for you at one stage of life may cease to be fun for you at a different stage of life.
So it feels like sometimes we're hitting a moving target.
So, when we're thinking about fun, but also authentic fun versus performative fun, where with performative fun, we're trying to be like other people and have fun, like the Instagram people clicking their heels on the beach.
If that's not your thing, would you try to be like them?
How can we be authentically, have authentic fun and figure out what that really means for us?
Yeah well, since I know Dory, I'd respectfully push back on that a little bit, although I know what it's rooted in.
Because that is, you know, and again, as academics, we have to nuance everything.
So some of this is just semantics and the fact that I do believe in the research.
But what I would separate from her is more play versus fun.
So fun in the most academic context is just are you in a positive, valent state?
Right.
And so the way we describe that and let me just say that valent is just a fancy word for experiencing pleasure
Right.
And so for me to be able to do my work.
I'm just simply describing fun, as are you deriving pleasure in the things that you're doing, or is it an unpleasant act that's going to deplete you that, if you were given the choice, you wouldn't do?
So I would say, if I was in that conversation with the two of you, I don't necessarily see anything wrong.
Like if it's a respite for you and you're enjoying the time with your friends, but there happens to be an outcome, then you're still having fun and you're still going to benefit from the things that we talked about the dynamic flexibility principle.
Is there benefits to play and play the nuance there, right?
Is that you're enjoying yourself, but it's not bound to an outcome.
So at the end of the hour right, there's nothing you're going to look back on and decide whether or not that was a successful hour used.
Are there benefits to that too?
Absolutely.
But is it something that you need to overly worry about as long as you're enjoying yourself?
I don't know.
I think it is a good question to ask.
So I don't fault her for going, hey, have you given this some thought?
Like is there something that you're doing where there isn't an outcome tied to it?
Because yeah, I'm not going to argue with her that there isn't huge benefits to that.
And again going back to some of Cleese's work, we also know putting yourself in that state does tend to lend itself to nonlinear thinking, which has its own benefits.
But as regards to like you know, how are you dividing up your day.
If you're enjoying those times, then we know that the energy is generally accretive right.
It's when you're like an example I often use.
I was working with someone who couldn't understand why they just used to love going to a Tastemasters group and like now they're like I hate it.
And it was as simple as just examining what had happened in that environment.
And what had happened was the folks that he used to like to go to this group with had all tritted out.
So now he just didn't really like the folks or didn't have a connection to him.
Right.
So it was no longer a good use of time, even though he wanted to become a better speaker.
So we got him in a group that was like more improv focused.
And he's like, you know, I like it again.
So in that construct, like just to finish the thought, there's generally three things to look at whether or not you're actually enjoying your time.
It's the people that you're with, the actual activity.
Like, is it something that's just, you know, fallen out of flavor?
Or the environment, right?
Like you know, back to your exercise example.
You know, one of the most provocative things I put in the book, especially because I came up through health clubs was, you know, one of the things that I find really interesting is oftentimes folks will you know, because they're so conditioned to believe that exercise has to happen in the four clubs of the health club.
You know, similar to what we were talking about with regards to fun needing a rebrand.
Like I just must not like exercise.
And that subtle nudge of like, hey, you know, hiking in nature is exercise too.
Like if that's your jam, don't think it has to happen within these four walls.
And you check in with them and they're like oh yeah, you know, I guess I love exercise now because all they want, you know, they want to be in nature and listen to their favorite podcast.
That like distracts them from the fact that they're taking a long walk.
And now they're off to the races.
And now they are creating a healthy habit that would have never occurred in the wrong environment.
Because they just, for whatever reason, they felt intimidated by the other members, or it wasn't their jam, or they didn't like the music and that was just enough friction to not create that healthy habit.
So anyways, sorry, I know I took a couple of twists and turns there.
No, if you have more twists and or turns, please add them to your answers.
This is great.
You've given me a lot to think about.
And I like this distinction.
It's very helpful.
And I like the three parts too.
The people, the activity, the environment.
Sometimes it could be just one of the three, but it seems like the more the merrier when it comes to these activities.
It's funny, the activity one, right, especially for work.
I've been fascinated at how successful it is when someone just approaches something that they feel like they should like, but they don't.
And look at it outside themselves, almost like an anthropologist, right?
Like, what is it about this thing?
So they can evaluate.
You know, they get out of doing it themselves and they're like what is it about this that's gone wrong?
Or picking it apart task by task and then reassembling it in a way that is meaningful or pleasurable to them.
And all of a sudden they like it again.
Right.
And so I, I just been surprised at the amount of times, you know, it's not the thing itself.
It's how you were going about it.
Hmm.
Well, let's stick on that point too, because I'm thinking about times where I might not have enjoyed a task, but then I thought about how I could make it more enjoyable.
Now it is something that I enjoy doing.
One of the things that I push my son to do, the one who is sentient, the four-year-old, he has his moments.
There's a little aside.
Dominic said something somewhat profound last night.
I forget what it was.
And so I said, Dominic, what does What does thinking mean?
And his response was, I was like, he's not there.
He's not there.
I will revisit this conversation in a year.
Maybe he's right.
We're all wrong, right?
Maybe we're the wrong ones.
But when I was talking to Kai I would tell him to do something like maybe some kind of chore or something.
I don't call them chores, but just helping the family, whatever it happens to be.
Clean up this thing up.
Do the dishes.
And I'll see his his shoulder slump and his head down.
And I say, OK, cool.
Now we have another thing.
So not only do I want you to do this, I want you to tell me how you made it fun.
Tell me how you made this activity enjoyable.
And I have been blown away at how much fun he can have while cleaning it up, cleaning up the house.
Right.
It's like, hey, there's a race.
I'm going to play this song.
I'm going to play it loud.
Let's see how much of this room you can clean up by the time the song is done.
And then they just go and race around and clean.
And so I'm wondering about, when it comes to play and fun and the the day-to-day things that we have to do, what approach can we use to start to intentionally inject some fun, enjoyment and levity into the things that we are perceiving as chores?
Yeah, so generally it doesn't take much right.
Again, this study is going to sound trite, but i'm going to.
I think it highlights how powerful simple interventions can be.
It comes from katie milkman um, And so she was looking at this idea of temptation bundling that was brought for it.
Like James Clear talks about it in Atomic Habits as well.
So a lot of folks are familiar with it.
But so she took that concept and she was working with 24 Hour Fitness and she found participants that really liked particular podcasts.
Right.
Like so they were zealots of the media that they like to consume.
And she said, I want you to only you know, you're going to have the social contract.
You can only engage in this when you get to the club and engage in cardio.
Right.
And so, you know, again, because we're getting towards the end should be no surprise.
All the magic happened.
Right.
One.
They like going to the gym better because now they associate it with this thing that they like, they forgot that they were exercising.
So again, similar to that hike analogy, right?
It's like, no, I'm now engrossed in this podcast I've been waiting to listen to.
So I've forgotten that I'm on a treadmill.
And so you see engagement in this activity that you know that's good for you.
But if it was boring before, quote unquote, not fun, you wouldn't engage in as long.
But I think the most fun thing And you see this, like some of the other studies are kind of silly, like the one that's often brought up
Dr. Dunn did one where she held chocolate from chocolate lovers.
And so we know that chocolate lovers will like the chocolate a lot more.
You know, if you've deprived them of it.
The example I playfully talk about in the book is the Eddie Murphy bit about the saltine cracker.
Yeah no, now i need.
I got something to google um, but it should be, uh.
So the third part of that study is they actually like the podcast better like so, even if they already liked them before, because they were now uh, you know, there was a level of scarcity for the thing that they liked.
So you get this trifecta benefits right, you enjoy exercise a little bit more because now you're looking forward to the thing that you like.
You're engaging in something that you might have not done as long, so it doesn't have to be exercise.
It could be a domestic chore, right.
You know, like house cleaning, like and you see that all the time, parents that are good at this reframe like how do we turn this into a game?
I just outfitted my son with a leaf blower and his you know, he forgot that he's actually cleaning up the leaves because he just is like wait, you're giving me this big machine that does crazy things.
So There's all sorts of ways to do that.
But I think the most profound thing is then you actually make this thing that you liked even more enjoyable.
So and again, it doesn't take much.
Right.
We're talking about a podcast.
We're talking about, you know, music for me.
It's comedy shows.
I just love comedy.
So that's my jam.
Oh, but let me be careful, because I have had to add this big asterisk to it because some studies have come out after the book.
You can't whimsically add things to what I call agonizing.
So if it's something like you have a big legal brief or you're trying to get through your taxes, it actually backfires where, like now, you hate that thing even more.
You got no enjoyment.
And at its worst, if you keep trying, you actually then start to learn to hate the thing that you liked before.
So it needs to be a task that's fairly low on the cognitive load, you know?
Yes.
Oh, that's good.
That is good.
So I hope nobody is listening to this episode.
Great.
Mike, man, I appreciate you.
This is so helpful.
And I love that we have been able to take something that can be feel so whimsical and ephemeral and brought some some tangible nature to it that makes it achievable.
So I appreciate this.
And before you go, can you just remind the listeners again about the book and how they can get in touch?
Yeah, thank you so much for that.
So the book is The Fun Habit.
It's out, you know, wherever you enjoy purchasing books.
And then I write about the science of fun for psychology today.
But you can find, you know, links to all of my content at MichaelRucker.com.
Amazing.
Mike, thank you so much for coming today.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
