This episode is brought to you by Nespresso.
Gift magical mornings with Nespresso Virtual Pop.
Compact and stylish, Virtual Pop is made to meet every morning coffee craving.
From espresso to coffee, hot or iced, at the click of a button, and celebrate the season with Nespresso's limited edition coffee flavors.
Sweet almond and hibiscus, cinnamon and candy tamarind, and festive double espresso.
Magic in the making.
Shop the holiday gift collection exclusively at Nespresso.com.
Today on Something You Should Know how a tiny bit more sleep each night can make a world of difference.
Then simplicity.
When you make things simple for people, you make things better.
If you've ever worked in marketing, if you've ever worked in sales, the first thing that you're going to learn is that people don't buy features, they buy benefits.
People don't want to a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter-inch hole.
People don't want a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter-inch hole.
They don't want the thing, they want what the thing does for them.
Also how anger can be an incredible motivator, and the fascinating story of pockets and why there are more pockets for men than women.
Another interesting piece about pockets is that in menswear, it's part of doing business.
In womenswear, it's often sort of thrown out because it takes too much time.
First thing to go are pockets.
All this today on Something You Should Know.
It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technology's biggest sale of the year.
That's right.
You'll find huge savings on select Dell PCs, like the Dell 16 Plus with Intel Core Ultra processors.
And with built-in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more, faster.
From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you.
Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options.
They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect.
Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're just finishing up, these PCs and accessories make perfect gifts for everyone on your list.
Shop now at dell.com slash deals and don't miss out.
That's dell.com slash deals.
Something you should know.
Fascinating intel.
The world's top experts.
And practical advice you can use in your life.
Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.
Before we jump into today's topics.
And hi, I'm Micah Ruthers and this is something you should know.
I want to quickly tell you something personal and meaningful to me.
There's a family that I know, and they struggle financially.
They have a 14-year-old daughter Pearl, and she has a chance to go to Hawaii with her school choir in March.
It's a big honor, and it's something that she may never get the chance to do again.
But the cost is more than her family can afford, so I helped them set up a GoFundMe page.
And I even narrated a short video for them.
And then I thought, well, you know, I talk to a big audience here every day.
Maybe someone listening would like to help.
And as I record this, they're about halfway to their goal and I would love to blow this up and get her even more money, so she has some spending money when she's in Hawaii.
Now there's no pressure, but if you're the kind of person who likes helping someone reach a dream that they could never reach on their own, This is one of those moments where even a small contribution could make a real difference.
So I put the GoFundMe link right at the top of the show notes, and even a few dollars helps.
And I appreciate you considering that.
And so now, on with today's episode, and we're going to start by talking about sleep.
And of course you know that getting enough sleep is important, but it may be more important than you realize.
There was a study done on over 7000 high school students that showed that A students averaged over 15 minutes per night of sleep more than B students.
B students average 15 more minutes a night than C students, and so forth, right down the line.
Amazingly, just 15 minutes more sleep can make a huge difference.
Americans average less than 7 hours of sleep per night, and most people need more than that to function at their best.
Why are we getting less sleep?
Well, the answer is exactly what you would expect.
Television, internet, cell phones, and a lot of other things keep us up at night, so we sleep less.
But we should sleep more, and that is something you should know.
Given the choice between complicated and simple, I think most of us would take simple every time.
Who doesn't like simple?
It's a lot easier to pay attention to simple things.
Still, we often complicate things up.
We make things harder for people to understand, even though they, just like you, would prefer simple.
Here to reveal how and why anything is better when it's simpler is Ben Gutman.
He's a marketing entrepreneur and educator who has helped hundreds of clients from the NFL to Nobel laureates.
And he is author of a book called Simply Put, Why Clear Messages Win and How to Design Them.
Hey, Ben, welcome to Something You Should Know.
Thanks for having me, Mike.
Great to be here.
So I love this message because that's one I've always believed in, that simple is better.
And I think people know that simple is better when you're trying to communicate.
But why is it better?
I mean, how do we know it's better?
Well, the essence of why simple is better is a word that we all know, which is called fluency.
And we know this in our daily life, right?
We can be fluent in English or Spanish, but that word means something else to a cognitive scientist.
If you ask them.
Fluency basically describes how easy it is to take something from out in the world, stick it in your head and make sense of it.
And it turns out that something that's easier, that takes less effort, that takes less sweat well, we're more likely to trust it, more likely to like it, more likely to buy it.
And the opposite is also true.
If it takes a lot of work, if it's hard for us to understand, if it's hard for us to remember well, we don't like it, we don't trust it, we don't buy it.
And most of the time, that's not what we want.
And that's all of our experience, that we like things to be simple.
But I guess you know how many times have you been in that position where you understand that you get that, but you think, but what I have to say is going to take a lot of explanation.
But I get that simple is better, but in this case, that won't work.
Oh yeah, I mean.
There's the famous quote which is misattributed to Mark Twain often, which is I wrote you a long letter because I didn't have time to write you a short one.
It's hard.
Simple can be effective.
We can know it can be effective.
We know that as a receiver, it's effective.
But when we're in the other role, when we're the one who has to send, who has to make an advertisement, send an email, make a presentation well, we have a really hard time getting out of our own way.
And so how do you do that?
How do you take something that you're convinced isn't simple and make it simple?
Because do you think that everything can be made simple or at least simpler?
No, no.
So there's, to borrow another quote from somebody who is often misattributed, Einstein said everything should be made simpler, as simple as possible, but no simpler.
The truth is there's lots of complex things in the world, right?
International diplomacy is complex.
You know, corporate mergers are complex, the human eyeball, all these things are really, you know, really intricate.
They have lots of pieces, they interact in different ways, but there's a difference between complex and complicated.
So complex is a natural state of being.
Complicated is when we take something that could be simple and we don't do the work to make it so.
When we pull it in the complex direction.
And that is what I believe is the root of most of our communication problems.
Well, I guess a lot of it too is who your audience is, because I mean, you could yeah, the eyeball is very complicated, but you could make it a lot simpler, depending on who you're talking to.
If you have to explain how the eyeball works to sixth graders, you're going to have to make it pretty simple.
Oh, yeah.
And actually one of the pieces of inspiration in some of the work I have here is a version really close to that actually.
So Randall Munroe, who is a web comic and author, wrote a book called Thing Explainer.
And what he did was he took all these really complex topics, stuff like the nuclear bomb and the Supreme Court, and distilled them using just the 1,000 most common words in the English language, and used that to explain the electromagnetic spectrum, all these different interesting things.
And there's a humorous result, because even the word 1000 for the 1000 most common words is not in there.
So you have to use ten hundred.
It does show as an exercise that you can really, really get there on most topics.
How so?
How do you do that?
How do you how do you get your brain in that mindset of let's make this easy?
Well, so it's important to look first at understanding that simplicity is not necessarily the fewest number of letters or words, or sentences, or pages or slides or whatever it is you have in your message.
It's the least amount of friction.
And if you're a designer, so my background is in design.
If you're a designer, you understand this.
If you work in user experience, you'll know that what you want to optimize for is the least amount of friction.
You don't want somebody to have to go through lots of different steps that are complicated and have all these different fields and everything else that between you and the shopping cart right.
You want to be able to get them straight there.
And the same logic applies for how we communicate.
Uh some, because sometimes that does mean this story would be better told with two or three slides instead of one slide.
This email could be a few bullets instead of one giant chunk of text.
So first putting the mindset on that it's not about the length that we're talking about.
It's about the friction.
And then what?
Don't you have to consider your audience before you do much of anything else?
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So the first piece really once you kind of understand the mindset of that we're optimizing for ease, not for brevity is to look at.
I've identified five different principles to these simple messages.
The first one is beneficial. which is what does it matter to the receiver?
And I spent 10 years running a marketing agency.
If you've ever worked in marketing, if you've ever worked in sales, the first thing that you're going to learn is that people don't buy features, they buy benefits.
We don't want the thing, we want what the thing does for us.
And if you look at also all the science about how we remember things and how we perceive things, it all lines up in that same direction too.
We care about lots of things, but we care about the things that matter to us, really.
Everything else kind of goes in and out.
And so what's an example of a feature versus benefit?
Well, let's look at toothpaste, for example.
A toothpaste might have a mint flavor to it.
OK, that's nice.
But we don't really want a toothpaste.
We don't really want mint flavor.
What we want is, well, so what?
We ask ourselves that.
We say, well, mint flavor means that we have fresh breath.
Okay, that's great.
Like we're getting there a little bit, but it turns out that's actually not where we even.
Uh, stop this.
If you ask, so what again saying, well, I have a mint flavor.
So what?
I have fresh breath.
So what?
Well, that means I'm going to have a better date tonight.
Right?
And if you even ask it a third time, you're going on another level.
You can get to the famous Maslow's hierarchy of needs physiological needs, love and belonging needs all these different pieces.
So you can connect the things that you can see hear touch smell, taste with your five senses, all the way down to what our fundamental needs are, just by asking a few simple questions.
And once you understand that benefit, Instead of talking about the features, you talk about what actually matters to people.
You're going to start to connect to them on a much deeper level.
I've been teaching at Baruch College here in New York for a number of years.
One thing I tell my students every semester.
It's a famous quote by Theodore Levitt, who's a Harvard marketing professor from the 20th century.
I tell them this and I say if you remember nothing else from this class, from this course, from your whole degree, if you just remember this, you're going to be ahead of most people in this business.
It is people don't want a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter-inch hole.
People don't want a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter-inch hole.
They don't want the thing, they want what the thing does for them.
Tempting to go to the thing because again we see that it's very easy to kind of crack open our senses and pick one of those things but it's harder to do the work that would actually connect and make that sale and make that make get, get that vote, get that donation, whatever it is you're trying to to move people to.
We hear a lot today that because there are so many messages, people are hearing so many things from so many people that it's hard to stand out.
It's hard to be heard.
Oh, absolutely.
So one of the things I talk about a lot also is this idea of salience.
So salience, what does that mean?
It is, does something rise to our attention?
Does it stand out?
Does it stick up?
Is there contrast with the background?
Is it something that is memorable?
And salience is created by doing something that other people aren't.
So if you talk about going to a conference, is everybody at the conference speaking the same way?
If everybody at the conference has the same type of slide, has the same intonation well, you're not going to stand out by doing that.
You have to do something different.
Zig a little bit when they're zagging.
Use a curse word.
Speak in rhyme.
Do something that's going to be a little bit different.
The framework to get there in terms of being salient is embracing constraints.
It's by doing something that other people aren't.
One of my favorite examples.
Talk about publishing a little bit is.
Over the past decade or so, every book in the self-help aisle, in the business aisle, personal development space, has had a curse word in it.
Every single one of them that's on the top of the bestseller list, from Mark Manson to Sarah Knight to everybody else.
They've sold millions of copies doing this.
And if they drop the curse word in there?
Well, all of a sudden, when you look at that, on a shelf that has things like the millionaire next door and seven habits of highly effective people, when you look at it in that context well, it's something that says the subtle art of not giving an F.
Well, all of a sudden, that stands out.
That's different.
And those things get remembered, they get purchased, they get read, they get talked about.
Conversely, that's starting to wear off a little bit.
If you look today at the bookstore, and you go to that section, every single title has that.
And so you got to find out what the next thing is a little bit.
The thing about zigging and zagging is that eventually other people start to zag a little bit.
And so you have to continually embrace different constraints to push you in a different direction.
Yeah well, it seems that when somebody breaks a rule like that, like putting a swear word in the title, that becomes the new rule.
So we get used to it.
And then it's like, yeah, it's no big deal.
It's not shocking.
So it loses its effect.
Oh, certainly.
And you can see this again if you want to look to advertising.
So two years ago.
Super Bowl runs.
What was the most effective advertisement at the Super Bowl?
It wasn't some big spectacle with some celebrities or comedians or talking animals, like it has been for years and years.
It was a black screen with a simple QR code bouncing around.
That was Coinbase.
It was scanned millions of times.
It broke the app.
It was the most successful commercial in years.
But then what happens?
The next year, as advertising works, every client goes to their agency and says I want to do the same thing.
Okay well, you go to the Super Bowl.
I think about half a dozen or so commercials were some variant of a QR code on the screen and it was much less effective.
So there's a little bit of a shelf life issue you have to deal with when you're talking about original salient ideas.
We're talking about making things simple.
And my guest is Ben Gutmann.
He is a marketing entrepreneur and author of the book Simply Put Why Clear Messages Win and How to Design Them.
I've learned from experience that hiring isn't easy, even when you know exactly who you're looking for.
Running a business doesn't automatically make you good at hiring people.
It's a skill and it takes time, sometimes too much time.
That's why I like Indeed.
It makes the whole process faster and easier, and the results are better.
When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need.
Instead of struggling to get your job post noticed, Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out.
Your listing jumps right to the top of the page for the people you actually want to reach.
And that saves you days, maybe weeks, of waiting.
And the numbers back it up.
According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed get 45 more applications than non-sponsored jobs.
What I like most is there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts.
You only pay for results.
And while I've been talking, 23 hires were made on Indeed worldwide.
It's that fast.
There's no need to wait any longer.
Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
And listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit.
To get your jobs more visibility at Indeedcom slash something.
Just go to Indeedcom, slash something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.
Indeed.com slash something.
Terms and conditions apply.
Hiring Indeed is all you need.
With the weather getting colder and the holidays upon us, I just want my wardrobe to be easy.
Things that look sharp, feel great, and last season after season.
Which is exactly what I get from Quince.
I reach for my Quince cashmere sweaters constantly.
They're 100% Mongolian cashmere, and somehow they're just 50 bucks.
Soft, warm, and the kind of everyday luxury that doesn't feel overdone.
And their denim is another favorite.
Great fit, easy to wear, and it holds up beautifully.
And if you're looking for a holiday gift to give without the big price tag, guilt Quince is perfect for that.
Those cashmere sweaters I just mentioned, they make great gifts.
And their wool coats, you've got to check them out.
They're stylish and durable, and their quality is top of the line.
It's amazing how many people have found Quince and love it.
What I love is how Quince works directly with ethical factories and top artisans, cutting out the middlemen.
So you get premium quality at half the cost of other high-end brands.
It's luxury without the markup, which means you can give something nice this season or keep it for yourself.
Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with Quince.
Go to quince.com slash S-Y-S-K for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Now available in Canada, too.
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash S-Y-S-K.
Free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash S-Y-S-K
So, Ben, one of the ways I see people muddy up the message and make it more complicated is jargon.
They use words, expressions that I don't know what they're talking about.
Maybe in their industry it means something, but it doesn't mean anything to me.
And so now I've kind of lost the message.
Oh, absolutely.
So that's an example of not having empathy with the receiver.
You have to speak in the language that your receiver understands.
You have to meet them where they are, in terms of both the literal language, as well as their motivation, their emotion and just where they are.
And if you're throwing out a a punch bowl full of acronyms and jargon, you're not doing that.
There's a story I like to tell as an example of what's an empathetic message and what's not.
So I've had bad luck with my dental health over the years, bad genetics.
I go to the dentist one day and I'm dealing with some very painful procedure.
And he goes, you know what?
You only have to floss the teeth you want to keep.
I said, you got me.
And so as soon as he said it that way, he met me where I am.
Instead of saying something like you, should floss to prevent plaque buildup below the gum line, which is all factually true.
But it's not in the language that I need to receive for me to understand it, for me to take action on it.
When it's not in that language, when it's not in plain English, when it's in dental speak, I'm not going to get it.
And you know what?
I've lost every single day since that dental appointment.
So you had said earlier that you know, being simple doesn't mean brief, but it often does mean brief because when you think of the messages that you remember, they tend to be brief.
They don't tend to be, you know, 84 pages of baloney.
Oh yeah.
I would say that simplicity is correlated with length, with brevity, but it's not necessarily the same thing.
Sometimes you do need to take that extra slide, that extra page in your website, the extra sentence, in order to make sure that you get there.
Clever is great, but clear beats clever every time.
Well, talk about that, because there does seem to be this idea that if you can be clever, that you hook people better.
That clever is better than just plain and simple.
Well, there's an interesting thing that happens, at least in my neck of the woods and working in marketing, is that there's a lot of folks that will give you a slogan, a headline for your website, a brand tagline.
That is just a really pretty set of words, but it actually doesn't connect with what they're trying to say.
It's something that looks good, but it doesn't actually mean anything.
An example here for this.
So a number of years ago, teen smoking was a big problem.
And a nonprofit group developed a campaign under the label Truth, which I'm sure many folks are familiar with, that had a very famous ad.
That was uh that featured, you know, a bunch of body bags being dumped in front of, uh the Philip Morris headquarters and an actor or an activist rather gets on a megaphone and shouts tobacco kills 1200 people a day.
Ever thinking about taking a day off?
And this ad won all sorts of awards.
It was super effective.
And it was relatively blunt.
It was salient.
This is something different.
You don't see that type of language on TV.
You don't see that in a magazine, a newspaper.
At the same time, there was a very brief...
And you know, kind of a.
They looked like a pretty set of words, a slogan from Philip Morris, that they were court ordered to have anti-smoking PSAs that said think, don't smoke.
Think, don't smoke.
They had a cool commercial of, you know, some teenagers in a diner, a whole thing.
Turns out, when researchers look back on this, this was a couple decades ago, and they look and they say okay.
Well, what was the effect of each of those ads on teenagers?
Well, the shorter one, kind of the little pithier Think Don't Smoke, turns out that actually increased the interest in smoking amongst teenagers.
Meanwhile, the blunter but longer.
One tobacco kills 1200 people a day.
Ever think about taking a day off?
That significantly decreased attitudes towards smoking amongst that same group.
Well, but it and when you think about it it kind of makes sense, because there's a little more information in that one.
That frames the picture a little better than just think don't smoke.
There's no context to that.
There's no it's just kind of words in the air.
There's a.
You see this in politics a lot, to be honest.
It sounds a lot like communicators have with too much abstraction and nothing for people to kind of grab onto.
People want when they're making a choice, if they're buying a product, if they're casting a vote, they want to have an answer when somebody says well, why are you buying that?
Or why do you vote for that guy?
Regardless of what everybody thinks of either candidate's politics.
You can just look back to the 2016 election as a case study in this.
If you look in the Republican field in that year, you had all these accomplished governors and senators and there were Republican strategists saying this is going to be the most formidable lineup of candidates we've ever had.
But one by one, you start to see their campaigns unfold.
And someone like Marco Rubio comes out as saying, a new American century.
Someone like Jeb Bush is just Jeb, right?
It's just the exclamation point at the end of it.
But then somebody like Donald Trump who ended up cruising to victory in that primary.
He has a historically loaded statement, but he says make America great again.
Well, there's something very tangible about that.
It's a complete sentence.
It's a full idea.
When somebody was asking you, well, why do you vote for that guy?
You could say, because he wants to make America great again.
And that was something that was plastered on all these kind of big, garish red hats, but it was something that was incredibly effective as a single piece of messaging that not only worked in the primary but when you look in the general election.
Hillary Clinton one of the most accomplished candidates on paper.
Well, what was the campaign slogan?
It was, I'm with her.
Or love Trump's hate.
Neither of those things are the complete, tangible sentence in a way that Make America Great Again was.
And that's part of the reason why he has been so successful in electoral politics over the past few years.
One of my favorite examples and I've used it in discussions many times, and maybe you have too, but lots of people have is that campaign.
This is your brain.
This is your brain on drugs.
Any questions?
I don't know how old that is.
It's really old and it's still clear as a bell.
Everybody that's seen it remembers it.
And the point is made in six words.
Oh yeah, right?
And again, that is a super salient ad when everything else is this colorful polished, high octane poppy soundtrack advertisement on children's television, on MTV, on whatever it was 20 or 30 years ago.
And then this thing comes on and it gives you this very visceral image, as well as that punchy tagline.
It becomes something that you remember.
We remember what's different.
We notice what's different.
And that's one of the keys to any form of effective communication.
Well, you know, it would be hard to find somebody.
I think that would disagree with the idea that simple clear, concise messaging is better.
It's just putting it into practice and not letting things get complicated.
That's the tricky part.
Ben Gutmann has been my guest.
He is a marketing entrepreneur and educator, and he's author of a book called Simply Put Why Clear Messages Win and How to Design Them.
And there's a link to that book in the show notes.
Appreciate you coming on, Ben.
Thanks.
Thanks, Mike.
It's been a pleasure.
You know, my mornings used to be a scramble.
Coffee, breakfast, trying to remember what supplements to take.
It was a lot to juggle.
And now I start every day with a single scoop of AG1, and it's made my morning so much easier and better.
In one mix, here's what I get.
I get nutrients from real whole foods, plus prebiotics, probiotics and enzymes that support my digestion and gut health.
After just a few weeks, I mean, I can tell it's working.
My energy feels steady all day.
I don't have to think about juggling five different pills or powders.
And what I love is that AG1 isn't just another supplement.
It's a daily micro habit that supports whole body health in one scoop.
It's simple, it's consistent, and it fits easily into my routine.
One scoop, shake, drink, done.
And I know I've done something good for myself before the day even starts.
It's become a small ritual that sets the tone for the entire day.
AG1 helps me stay one scoop ahead.
Head to drinkag1com slash something to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 when you first subscribe.
That's drinkag1.com slash something.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
Do you ever think about switching insurance companies just to see if you could save some cash?
Well, Progressive makes it easy.
Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies.
The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket.
Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save.
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates.
Potential savings will vary.
Not available in all states.
There is a pretty good chance that if you're wearing clothes right now, there is a pocket or two in those clothes.
And also a pretty good chance that there's something in those pockets, stuff you want to keep close by.
We are so used to pockets and carrying stuff in them that you know if you ever get a shirt or a jacket or pants or shorts or something where there is no pocket.
It just feels wrong.
So why do we love pockets so much?
Where do they come from?
How have they changed?
And how will they change?
Here to discuss this is Hannah Carlson.
She is an authority on the history of clothing and author of a book called Pockets an intimate history of how we keep things close.
Hi, Hannah.
Welcome to Something You Should Know.
Hi, Mike.
It's great to be here.
So my impression is that pockets are one of those things that everybody needs, everybody uses, nobody ever thinks about.
And so why do you think about them?
Why is this important?
Because it doesn't seem like it would be an interesting subject for a book, but clearly it is.
So why pockets?
Pockets are so, they're so familiar, but we haven't spent any attention on them.
There are lots of gloriously beautiful books about bags, for example, very few about pockets.
And I think that they're one of those things that, upon closer inspection, have a number of things to say about how we negotiate the world.
Yeah, well, imagine life without pockets.
I mean, I can't imagine how would you carry stuff.
But when did people actually start using pockets?
Do we know when the first pocket showed up?
Well, they've only been in use for about 500 years, so not quite forever, but their origins are a mystery.
Pockets are first stitched into men's breeches around like 1550 or so.
And those breeches were the sort of puffy bloomers that ended at the knee.
Think of Henry VIII.
And I don't think we're ever going to discover who had that aha moment.
No tailor explains why they began including pockets.
There seems to be really something improvised about early pockets.
It's as if the tailor said, huh, I'm not going to attach this purse to your belt anymore.
Why don't I see if I can stuff it inside these really big breeches?
And they do look sort of improvised.
They look like drawstring bags, literally.
They're not like the envelope shaped pockets that we have today.
They really sort of hung from the waistband on the inside of those big breeches.
I don't know, they were made of heavy duty material like leather or cotton duct.
They might be really long, like 20 inches.
And they were itemized and tailored invoices separately.
So they were this newfangled device and they looked a lot more like bags than they look like pockets today.
And what did people do before pockets?
Well, everyone has always had bags.
I mean, bags have been around forever, for millennia.
I think of Otzi, the mummy who was found in the Swiss Alps in the 90s.
I think he was determined to be around, that he died around 3000 BC and he had a bag attached to his belt.
So people have carried bags in all kinds of ways, balanced on their heads, lugged by hand around the neck or onto your belt, and they've been perfectly sufficient.
I think pockets are different just because they seamlessly fit and are stitched into clothes.
And that's why people find them so compelling.
It would seem although you may correct me, but it would seem that pockets are more important for men than women, because women typically carry purses and so they put their stuff in there, whereas men, we don't carry purses, so we tend to stuff everything in our pockets.
Well, a man without pockets is a freak of nature, according to 19th century commentators.
But I think that the pocket and purse distinction is almost as important as the skirt and trouser distinction.
However, I would disagree with you.
There have been a lot of women who don't want to carry purses.
I mean, just think about it.
It requires all this sort of psychic energy to keep hold of your purse.
You can put it down while you're at lunch or you're on the bus and you have to remember to keep hold of it.
It can be stolen.
This satellite accessory has taken a lot of energy actually.
And there are a number of women and women's wear designers who've insisted on pockets and considered it part and parcel with a sense of modern freedom.
I think this idea that we don't have to worry about including pockets because women have handbags has actually been a little bit lazy and maybe kind of an excuse.
Yeah, maybe.
But it does seem that you see women with purses most of the time.
In fact I thought about this, like if you're in a store and you want to find somebody that works at the store, one way you can tell the people the women who work at the store, is they don't have purses, but the customers do.
And that's one way to tell the difference that they purses are so common that without one you stand out.
I think that's a wonderful observation.
But I would also direct you to all the say teenage girls who have been using their cell phones and the case's as sort of a kind of a purse, sticking their money and ID in that case and then sticking that whole thing in their waistband of their pants as a way to not have to carry the purse.
Suffragists at the turn of the 20th century called the purse a badge of servitude.
And there have certainly been some women who just don't like carrying it.
And so you say pockets started 500 years ago, but when did we get pockets like we think of pockets?
Because it sounds like they weren't anything like today's pockets.
Well, I think that happens around...
With the invention of the suit.
So late 17th century, when the suit is invented, it opens up all sorts of new places to put pockets.
And so they move into the coat and you have breast and hip pockets.
And that's when they really flatten out and resemble the envelope shape pockets that we have, that we're used to.
And are pockets hard to put into clothes?
Was there any resistance?
Like oh God, this is going to make our job so much more difficult to make clothes this way.
Well, pockets are certainly standard in menswear and I don't think anyone thinks that they're hard, but they are difficult to put in.
I teach at the Rhode Island school of design and I teach apparel students and they tell me that it takes a commitment to be able to include them because you have to kind of engineer them, that you want them to lie flat.
You have to think about how the hand will fit, how you'll reach into them.
And it takes effort and a number of, um, you know, mess ups before you get it to work.
Claire McArdle, who was a sportswear designer in the 20th century, always took the time to include them.
But her manager, who was trying to make the money, was always having arguments and saying no no, don't include these.
It's too expensive.
So I think another interesting piece about this gendered question about pockets is that in menswear it's part of doing business.
In womenswear, it's often sort of thrown out because it takes too much time.
Fast fashion especially, first thing to go are pockets.
And so with the suit, the suit opens up, as you say, all kinds of places to put pockets.
But now I mean how often I've gotten a suit or tried on a suit and there's fake pockets, there's slits, but they don't go anywhere.
In your suit, really?
Yeah.
Wow.
I mean, is it the case that it's a pocket that's stitched up and you just need to unstitch it?
There are times when really nicely made clothes the pockets are stitched up, and they're stitched up so that they keep their shape until the wearer wants to use it.
And all you have to do is unstitch them.
So I'm wondering if that's what you have.
Or is it a real fake pocket and there's no pocket bag attached?
I can think of a sport coat I have in my closet that has a very fake pocket.
It looks like a pocket from the outside, but it's like a doorway to nowhere.
It doesn't go anywhere.
And isn't that doorway to nowhere so frustrating?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that's the experience of many people wearing women's wear.
Like you know, when a pocket sort of is there just to accentuate the hip or to suggest something sort of a fun decoration.
And when it doesn't work, it's so disappointing.
Are there milestones in the development of pockets that you can point to and say well, you know, this is where everything changed.
This was a game changer in the world of pockets.
In the 20th century, women's wear begins to experiment with pockets.
Previously, pockets had been held underneath the skirt.
So a tie on pocket, we call them.
They were tied under the skirt.
You could reach them through a slit and get at them.
But once women's wear leaves behind big skirts, and corseted waists and moves into the modern era.
So think by the 1910s, 1920s, pockets began to be integrated into women's dress.
And it just opens up this field day of decorative pockets.
Pockets become playful.
They take on different looking shapes.
I've seen pockets shaped like tennis nets. and playing cards and lips and bureau drawers.
And they become a whole new avenue for designers to express and to express sort of fun ideas but also just fun clothing.
There is a sense I've always had like in business wear sport coat suits, that kind of thing that even though you have pockets, it's better not to fill them up because it makes you look funny.
It's bulgy and it throws off the symmetry.
It's great to have pockets, just don't use them very much.
Yeah, that has been a common complaint.
There was this amazing exhibition in 1944 at the Museum of Modern Art, and it was called Are These Clothes Modern?
And Bernard Rudolfsky was an architect and he was thinking about clothes, but he was especially infuriated about all the pockets in men's suits.
And he said, they are not actually practical.
You can't find anything in any of your many, many pockets.
We have layers and layers of pockets.
I have 24 pockets when I'm walking down the street.
And he drew this beautiful sort of map of all the pockets, from outerwear to underwear, that men tend to have.
And he made exactly your point, which is, if I actually use them, it would be so bulky.
This is silly.
So yes, I take your point that pockets aren't always so functional, especially if they if they're sort of too, too bulgy.
Of course, this has also been the reason that women's wearers thought not to have pockets because you want to have a sleek silhouette.
There's a wonderful story about the american women's rights advocate, elizabeth katie stanton, and she, in 1895, writes this letter to a New York newspaper.
And in it, she recounts her experience with her dressmaker.
And she really wants a pocket, Stanton does.
And her dressmaker says, No, no, I can't include a pocket.
A pocket would bold you out just awful.
And Stanton thinks she's won her argument, but she hasn't.
And a couple of weeks later, she receives the dress.
It has not a single pocket.
And the dressmaker wins the day.
Beauty trumps, you know, function in this case.
One thing I think every man at least has the experience of at some point you realize you can put your hands in your pockets.
But then you're often, Curtis, get your hands out of your pockets.
So we don't know whether our hands should be in our pockets or not be in our pockets.
And that's not what pockets are for.
And yet, you know, it's a very convenient place to put your hands.
I think hands automatically seem to search out pockets.
I agree with you.
You know, etiquette guides starting in the 18th and 19th centuries tried to warn men that it was in fact rude to strut about with their hands in their trouser pockets.
Trouser pockets locate to lust.
You know, that's the reason that all those etiquette guides say take your hands out of your pockets, right?
They're placed in and around the erogenous zones, according to the poet Harold Nemiroff.
However, it's always also been really attractive.
And it starts, you know, with courtiers around the sort of the late 17th, early 18th century.
And they try to break the rules.
And in doing so, they looked really fashionably nonchalant.
So all sorts of men wanted to look that way, too.
And I think The interesting thing is that fashion delights in mocking good manners.
And so holding your hands in pockets sort of reveals this conflict between fashion and good manners.
It's comfortable, but it's also really svelte and cool.
Just kind of gesture with your hands in your pockets.
Well, and it's also nice on a cold day to have a place to keep your hands warm.
Well, exactly.
It's nice and cozy.
I mean, I think, once Victorian manners really declined by the end of the 19th century, people less and less call out that gesture as rude.
Yeah, it seems like it's not so much rude, as the gesture of your hands in your pockets sends a message that it says casual.
And I know a policeman once told me that they were instructed not to be seen in public with their hands in their pockets because
It looks like they're just kind of you know, hanging out and they're not like on alert for crime and things.
So it does send a message.
I agree with you.
That's right.
And I think there's also codes in the military.
The US Army has rule against holding your hands in your pockets unless you're taking an object out of your pocket.
And I guess we could think of the debate stage.
Any politician would never be caught with their hands in their pockets.
But I think it also can project confidence, kind of a casual confidence.
If you're at a party and you're leaning against the wall with your hand in your pockets, you certainly don't look nervous.
It looks like you're kind of you know cool right, and i think that to me is what's so interesting about the gesture.
Most hand gestures don't involve objects.
Say, you take a sip of coffee with a coffee cup, you wouldn't think about how i'm holding that coffee cup all that much when you're thinking about how to decode my mood or my you know feeling at that moment.
But I think when we remove our hands into our pockets we're suggesting something about our unwillingness to engage with the other person.
You know, someone who stands with their back against the wall and their hands crammed in their pocket is sort of suggesting they're not with you, they're not engaged with you.
And so orators and politicians and people who study gesture all have to admit that even though the hand isn't making any movement, it is also expressive in the pocket.
I know men's suits have in the vest, in the vest of a three-piece suit, have a pocket or used to have a pocket for a pocket watch.
And I remember it came up on a previous episode here that in Levi's jeans the little pocket inside the big pocket on the front of Levi's jeans is also for a pocket watch, even though no one uses it for that anymore.
Or?
Can't imagine who does.
And Levi's has always kept it to ensure the integrity of the original design of their blue jeans.
But I'm wondering are there any other pockets that were designed for a specific use, like the pocket for a watch?
There are lots of pockets with specific uses.
For example, in the 19th century suit there was a little pocket called a ticket pocket and it was right under the breastcoat pocket and it was small, so that you always knew where you had your ticket for the train conductor.
There's a fob pocket and that pocket is right at the belt and it's a tiny little slit and It was meant to hold, I think, money or a tiny little purse.
And the idea is it's really hard to steal anything from the fob pocket.
You hold it close to your belly and no one can just slip their hand in and steal anything.
What do you think the future of pockets is, or do we have a sense of where that's going?
Are we going to have more pockets, fewer pockets, no pockets?
Where are we headed?
There are lots of folks experimenting with a sort of science fiction meets fashion synergy and it's called wearables.
And this idea that you could have a smart jean jacket.
Folks at Levi's and Google have been experimenting with that.
So the idea is, let's say you're biking to work and you don't want to get out your cell phone.
You could actually pass your hand over your jacket, in which there's been conductive thread woven into the sleeve, and wirelessly transmit signals to your phone.
So there are all these really far out ideas about, I don't know, moving through the world seamlessly without any kind of encumbrance.
But today we really don't have a digital form of handkerchief and I think we will still rely on pockets in the future.
Well, I use my pockets every day, and now I have a better appreciation for them.
I've been talking to Hannah Carlson.
She is an authority on the history of clothing and she's author of a book called Pockets an intimate history of how we keep things close.
And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.
Thanks for coming on and talking about this, Hannah.
Thanks so much, Mike.
Those are really fun questions.
Emotions are a big factor when it comes to achieving goals.
And it's assumed, I think, by many people that positive emotions are a good motivator to help you reach your goals.
However, new research published by the American Psychological Association shows that anger can also be a powerful motivator for people to achieve challenging goals in their lives.
A series of experiments conducted at Texas AM University showed that, across all of the experiments, anger improved people's ability to achieve their goals.
Now, the positive effects of anger were specific to situations where the goals were challenging.
Anger did not appear to be associated with reaching goals that were considered easy.
Anger isn't the only thing that pushes people towards their goals.
In some cases, amusement or just sheer desire were also associated with increased goal attainment.
But don't discount anger just because it's a negative emotion.
You can use it to your advantage.
And that is something you should know.
If someone asks you, hey, have you listened to any good podcasts lately?
I hope you will mention this one and suggest they give a listen.
I'm Mike Carruthers.
Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.
Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way.
So, want to drive?
CarMax.
Pickup not available everywhere.
Restrictions and fee may apply.
The Infinite Monkey Cage returns imminently.
I am Robert Ince and I'm sat next to Brian Cox, who has so much to tell you about what's on the new series.
Primarily eels.
And what else?
It was fascinating though, the eels.
But we're not just doing eels, are we?
We're doing a bit.
Brain computer interfaces timekeeping fusion monkey, business cloud.
Science of the North Pole and eels.
Did I mention the eels?
Is this ever since you bought that timeshare underneath the Sargasso Sea?
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
