On NPR's Wildcard podcast, Melinda French-Gates on seeing her ex-husband Bill Gates' name in the latest Epstein files.
For me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up, right?
Because it brings back memories of some very, very painful times in my marriage.
Watch or listen to that Wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube at NPR Wildcard.
Maybe you think you shouldn't read a book before seeing the movie adaptation, or you're convinced season two is the best season of The Wire.
Well, that's just like your opinion, ma'am.
And when it comes to culture, we've all got at least one of those.
The argument we're always making, that non-negotiable stance, that immutable truth we're sticking to, no matter what.
Nobody's going to convince you otherwise, but arguing about it sure is fun.
So that's why we're revisiting this conversation from 2024 about the pop culture hills we'll die on.
I'm Stephen Thompson.
I'm Ayesha Harris, and you're listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
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It looks like there are hundreds of genes that are involved.
To find out what the research actually says about autism and what we still don't know.
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Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
Now, 250 years in, what is that pursuit really about?
Join us each Tuesday for an essential new series America in Pursuit from ThruLine on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.
Joining us today is our fellow PCHH host, Glenn Weldon.
Hey, Glenn.
Hey, Aisha.
And also with us is the former host of Slate's Internet Culture Podcast ICYMI and former pop culture happy hour producer, Candice Lim.
Welcome back, Candice.
Oh my gosh, it is really nice to see all of you.
Yes, and I'm also very much looking forward to everyone's hills that they shall die on.
The premise here is pretty simple.
Each person here will share a pop culture-related perspective that they feel extremely passionate about, and then the rest of us will judge them for it.
We're not talking hot takes here.
We were going to call this hot takes and we decided not to call it hot takes because we don't want it to be like confrontational in-your-face man.
This is just something we feel strongly about.
Absolutely.
Mine might arguably be a hot take, but I'm not going to present it that way.
We'll see.
Candice, why don't you kick us off with The Hill You Will Die On?
I need to warn you.
It is a two-parter, so I'm going to state my thesis.
We'll do an intermission at the semicolon.
Here we go.
Jacob Elordi is the new Timothee Chalamet, and he could be the next Andrew Garfield.
Timothee Chalamet is the current Leonardo DiCaprio who will have the career of Tom Cruise.
Marinate, marinate, marinate, marinate.
That's a lot to absorb there.
Explain.
Unpack.
Jacob Elordi's 2023 reminds me a lot of that 2017-2018 period when Timmy was exploding because he was in Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird and Luca Guadagnino's Call Me By Your Name.
And so I remember back in 2017, Timmy is exploding beyond internet stardom.
You could not open Twitter Tumblr, Yelp without seeing photos, fan camps of this boy in.
But I think Timmy's time as the Internet's number one boy is over, because 2023 Jacob comes out.
Two movies back to back.
Sofia Coppola's Priscilla, Emerald Fennell's Saltburn.
And I could not go one scroll without seeing that exact gif of Jacob Elordi in Saltburn as Felix with the little like cowboy hat on.
And I just think he is occupying Timmy's space because he has this like effortless cool gender bending street style.
Coppola and Fennell are two people who have definitely contributed to this pipeline because they've really just like captured that allure of allure through the female gaze.
Now, in terms of Jacob's near future, he's going to be in this miniseries called The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which is based on a book by Richard Flanagan.
It's about this like World War II lieutenant's life as he grows up and falls in love.
This screams Andrew Garfield to me.
And I think Andrew and Jacob, they've both shown range very early on in their careers.
Jacob did The Kissing Booth.
Some may say that's Andrew's Spider-Man.
And I just think Jacob could be like an Oscar bait actor the way Andrew has.
But I want to add an addendum, which is that I think he should become the next Margot Robbie.
Okay.
So many actors.
I can't keep them straight.
I know.
I know.
The shorthand.
The shorthand.
I know.
I know.
That's why you got to take notes.
Take notes.
So I feel like we don't study the Margot Robbie super producer playbook enough and how she is doing so much behind the scenes to secure.
Not only her legacy in Hollywood, but her control as an actress.
And I just think Jacob has good taste.
And I'd like to see him use it to become this like mega producer who, just like, attaches his name to projects he likes.
That is part one.
Thoughts, questions, concerns.
Let's go.
Wow.
That's part one?
That's part one.
Okay.
I think I'm with you on the he could be Oscar bait, whatever.
I see that.
I see that for him.
Yes.
What I don't agree with necessarily is the idea that there can only be one.
Right.
Timothy, however he pronounces his name, you know, he can exist and coexist alongside Jacob Milordi.
All right.
I can see it, I guess, kind of.
I mean, we can't say you didn't show your work, right?
Yeah.
There's examples.
What I really needed, though, was a whiteboard so I could track it all.
A red string.
And some string.
I know.
I left my red string corkboard in the other room, guys.
I'm so sorry.
Okay.
What's part two?
All right.
Timothy Chalamet is the current Leonardo DiCaprio who'll have the career of Tom Cruise.
Okay.
When I look at an actor's Wikipedia, sometimes I'll pick out a few roles and I'll ask was this actor chosen or choosing?
I think Timmy is now in a place where he can choose his roles differently.
And I think Timmy is trying to ball with the bros, like attaching himself to the biggest directors possible.
That means choosing Wonka, choosing Dune.
And we move to the next part, him being the current Leo.
I think the comparison is obvious.
You know, he is boyish.
He became Hollywood A-list very quickly.
And the Timmy hype reminds me a lot of Leo's Titanic era.
But when Leo chose to attach himself to Martin Scorsese best career choice of his life and even though timmy has attributed a lot of his success to luca guadagnino, i think he's looking for his second auteur, and so when he does, i could see timmy going down this path of like okay, i made my name in the indie scene, but if i'm only gonna do one or two movies a year, they better make 100 million at the box office.
Who does that sound like tom cruise?
Okay,
I would say Tom, you know reliable making movies, putting in the work nominated for three acting Oscars.
Timmy is Academy-loved, someone who is not afraid to take a check over the art of acting.
And so that is my pop culture hill I'll die on.
The Jacob Elordi is a new Timothee Chalamet, who could become the next Andrew Garfield, but should become Margot Robbie.
Timothee Chalamet is a current Leonardo DiCaprio who will have the career of Tom Cruise.
Okay.
End scene.
End scene.
I really appreciated this elevator pitch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Longest elevator of your life.
Yeah.
Let's focus on the Tom Cruise because it's the only part I remember.
Yeah, sure.
Go for it.
So comparing anybody to Tom Cruise is always fraught for me because he is so singular.
He was an action star.
And then some of the success.
A lot of the success, I would say, of the past few years is Tom Cruise –.
Going from Broody Action Star, realizing that doesn't really work for him anymore, and pivoting to Action Star, who acknowledges his age in kind of a wry knowing way.
It's about self-knowledge.
It's about an earned self-awareness.
I think Chalamet is way too young for that kind of thing.
Tom Cruise is like in his 60s now.
And so, like his career, I think we have to sort of isolate era of his career as opposed to the long game of his career.
And I can see the point if we're talking about him and his risky business Top Gun era.
Yeah, I think that's.
That's comparable, because Timmy is still doing like he did Bones and All that very weird cannibal movie, but then on top of that he also did Dune.
So I think that seems more comparable to Maybe we'll see him start to get into the rom-com era, like Tom Cruise did very briefly with Jerry Maguire.
But as far as like action hero star, I don't know.
I don't know if I see that for him right now.
Timmy and the word bulk.
I don't know about that.
But the thing is like I can see Timmy studying the game of Tom Cruise and being like what if I fell off a building?
But I was like really french and cool about it, so that might be something the girls want, who knows?
I followed like a quarter of that and i think you made very good points.
Thank you so much, guys.
I feel like maybe on Instagram or the socials or something, you should definitely share the whiteboard version of this.
Make a PowerPoint.
Please do, Candice.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you, Candice.
Now, Glenn.
Yeah.
Tell me, do you have a whiteboard here?
No, this is very simple.
But before we get to that, I have to say that over the long and storied history of this show...
We've had occasion to visit several hills I'm prepared to die upon.
A, Das Soundmaschine was robbed from the film Pitch Perfect 2.
The song Flashlight is Terrible, Das Soundmaschine rocks.
Yes.
Store-bought Halloween superhero costumes are better than any sofro Hobby Lobby nonsense you can whip up as a parent because your kids want to look like superheroes.
They do not want to look like some sad Santa Fe Gallery textile installation, so you let them look like superheroes.
Yes.
Candy corn is high fructose earwax.
These are all hills that are littered with my son's bleached bones.
Those sound like hot takes to me, but okay.
No, no, they're just observations.
They are mere observations.
They're too real to be hot.
Here is my fresh hill I will die on.
Boss battles in video games are pointless and frustrating, and they are retrograde holdovers from an antiquated gaming era.
They add nothing to a game's enjoyment.
In fact, they subtract substantially from them.
It is time they were consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong.
You all know what I mean when I talk about boss battles, yes?
Yes.
Oh, yes.
I have battled many a boss.
We might need a little refresher.
A boss battle.
Candice is where any game that you're playing's innovation and idiosyncrasy and freshness and novelty stops dead.
So we can go back to gaming's most basic mechanics of pattern recognition.
And so the game stops dead while a boss sits there, the big bad that you have to fight.
And goes through their patterns that you are forced to memorize.
They will throw out three fireballs.
Then they will unleash five minions.
Then they will send out a shockwave.
Then they will become vulnerable for three seconds.
Then they will retreat.
And then it all starts again.
You as the gamer.
You have nothing to do except dodge the fireballs and fight the minions and jump over the shockwave, run in, wail on them as fast as you can to take 2 of their health, then retreat and repeat.
And when you've got them halfway down, then they transform into a final form where they do everything they just did, but faster, with more damage.
And maybe now you have to aim for some stupid glowing spot under their thorax to do any damage.
The thing is that this is what games used to be.
This is all that games used to be.
And people loved it back then.
They loved the repetition.
They loved memorizing the rhythm and this feeling of accomplishment, of dying countless times because you miscounted a fireball.
And I remember the feeling of bliss that crashes over you when you finally get it.
I am an older man now.
And games aren't on rails anymore like they used to be.
They are much richer and wider and wilder.
They give you more options, more possibilities, more potential to do anything, more ways to accomplish whatever you want to do.
Except fight the boss.
Those remain lather, rinse, repeat.
I find nothing about them fun or challenging.
I mean it's challenging in the way that churning butter is challenging because it is hard, it is repetitive and we don't need to do it anymore is the thing.
So throw off the shackles of yesteryear, is what I say, and let dull, mindless repetition go the way of the dodo.
Now, Glenn, there are more games now where you can avoid the boss battles, correct?
Like.
I feel like there's a whole cottage industry in video gaming where you're trying to set a record for speed running a game.
And one way to do that is to like dodge and weave and kind of duck past.
And it seems like it's like more and more of those boss battles.
You're able to avoid them if you want to.
If you want to.
More of that, I say.
But my worry is that this will never go away completely, because gaming as an industry is just besotted with nostalgia with, like the throwback, with people yearning for the games they played as kids.
I just think they're a waste of everyone's times and we have to do better.
We must do better.
Yeah.
Hi, it's me, the person who only plays games that I played when I was like 12.
There you go.
But I will say, and it's like a handful.
I have the newer version of Crash Bandicoot, which I love.
But I agree.
The boss battles are terrible.
The whole game is repetition, because it's literally just you're running and you have to dodge things.
But in between there are those boss battles that are just to me, that frustration you're getting at Glenn.
Because at least...
With normal level games themselves, you're moving forward.
A goal.
Whereas the boss battle is like, it's just one thing.
It's so terrible.
So I'm with you there.
I'll be in the middle of an amazing game and I'll be like, we're doing this again?
This?
Now?
Still?
Yeah.
I appreciate the boss battle explainer Glenn, because as someone who does not game, I genuinely thought you meant like in every game, there's a part where the manager yells at you for not filling out your time sheet.
And I was like, wow, every game has that?
That's crazy.
Wow.
I can send you some indie games where...
Let's do.
And a PS5 with that.
Well, thank you, Glenn.
That's a great hill to die on.
I completely concur.
And I'm glad that this is something that is somewhat gone by the wayside, even if not completely.
Stephen, tell us, what is the most passionate thing you want to argue right now?
Well, I get to piggyback on something that Glenn said.
Glenn gave me a beautiful distillation of the idea of throwing off the shackles of yesteryear.
And it ties into my thoughts on music.
Not a surprise.
Basically, I think there needs to be a mechanism whereby songs are forcibly retired.
Okay.
Say more.
So, big movie comes out.
It leaves theaters after a few weeks.
Maybe if it's a big hit, a couple months.
TV shows, they pop up when you search them out.
And maybe people are talking about them when they come back.
Otherwise, if you want to avoid it, you can generally avoid it.
Songs stay on radio playlists and kind of on the wind in the in stores, in your car, if you, if you're a car radio person, and more and more radio stations are programmed in such a way where, even if it's an oldies station, even if it's a classic rock station, that station will be constructed around a core playlist of like a dozen songs.
And so if you turn on a classic rock radio station or you're flipping the dial and you just hit like oh, here's some guitars, The odds that you will hear Bryan Adams' Summer of 69 are shockingly high.
A song from 1985 about how life was best in the 60s is still inescapable if you listen to classic rock radio.
And to me, that is absurd.
This applies to holiday music.
My God.
Sure.
When was the last time we got a holiday song recorded in the last 25 years?
I mean, there are a lot.
It's just they're not winding up on.
We get them.
Oh, my gosh.
I'd like to introduce you to Cher.
And Cheryl Lee Ralph.
Yes.
Please please, allow me to clarify that I do not mean that nobody is recording holiday music, for the love of God.
I am well aware that that is the case.
But in terms of what kind of seeps into the cultural firmament to the point of inescapability.
It's just this endless rehashing and regurgitation of songs that were recorded 30, 50 years ago.
I just think there needs to be like a blue ribbon panel of curmudgeons made up entirely of me.
Led by you.
That maybe says in the case of Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree by Brenda Lee, this song is on hiatus for five years.
We will revisit it in the holiday season in 2028 or whatever.
But in the case of, like Bryan Adams' Summer of 69, that that song be permanently retired and never played on the radio ever again.
I'm just trying to think of the logistics of this because like, what is a classic rock station, but a station that is going to be playing the oldies?
But there are so many oldies, Aisha.
Fair.
This is my point.
Brian Adams had, like, 12 hits.
Play a different one.
One way to toss off the shackles of yesteryear and to avoid that inescapability you mentioned is by you know, maybe not listening to a classic rock station in 2024, as I do not.
And these things you are claiming are inescapable and inevitable are very evitable.
I assure you.
Okay, that is true.
I am in the unusual position of sharing a car with three people who insist only on the radio.
There you go.
But I also go to stores.
I also go to courtyards.
I go to places where music is on the wind.
And I hear this stuff all the time.
No, that's true.
I've always wanted someone to do, like the data on, like what is the most common song you're going to hear in any given public environment, whether it's like an applebee's or a walgreens.
I think it's ed sheeran.
Shape of you okay, so i'm gonna back you.
Steven, i listen to the radio.
I live in la, so these numbers will only apply to angelino's like the hottest music.
Hottest is 1027, kiss fm, and then once you grow up, you go to 1043, my fm, and then, once you're like about to die, you go to 1035, adult content.
Tell me, why am I driving to McDonald's on a Tuesday and Ed Sheeran is on 1035?
Why?
But I'm with you Stephen, which is that, like when you think about the incongruency of like why people are mad that certain people didn't win album of the year at the Grammys.
It is because this industry and the people listening to it are like very different people with different motives.
And those radio people, they're basically just trying to find songs to play between ads.
They're going to play to their interests and whoever brings in the money.
And I'm going to be honest, if I'm listening to Lizzo on 1035 or a Kohl's, I kind of have to take it.
I hear what you're saying because there was a period of time when one could not enter a CVS without hearing Smooth Operator by Sade.
Oh, my God, yeah.
Now, it's a song I happen to like.
It's a pretty good song.
She has like 100 other songs.
She has so many other songs that are so good.
But separately.
That doesn't happen to me anymore, not because the CVSs aren't still CVSing, but because I am listening to podcasts on my AirPods as I walk through the aisles of the stores.
I'm the same way.
Unfortunately, this hill you die on will probably be.
I will die on it.
It will not.
This is not a problem that will be solved.
This is the hill that will kill me.
So I guess we'll move on to mine, which I did hint might be a sort of controversial take, I think, because there are so many variabilities involved.
And it actually kind of jumps off of yours, Stephen, because it has to do with music.
It is listening to music, watching music in public at concerts.
Now, Gerald Mission.
On its face, it's the egalitarian way.
Presumably everyone has paid the same or a not too dissimilar price for those tickets.
And you have the freedom to just move about as you please.
You're not beholden to the confines of a seat.
You're going to argue against egalitarianism.
Good, good, good.
Keep going.
Say more.
Okay.
But here's the thing.
At concerts and festivals.
This arrangement can be a scourge for those of us who are on the short end of the spectrum, who are Height challenged, as they say, who must not only deal with the enthusiastically flailing elbows of tall people in their faces or the increased risks of those tall people getting bumped and then spilling their drink on your head, which has happened to me multiple times.
But you also get every boring person who stands for minutes at a time with their arm up in the air, taking a bad recording of a performance they're probably never going to watch again, except to post on social media.
Just to say they were there.
Now, I have very little faith in humanity and I'm not going to argue here that tall people should all of a sudden stand on the sidelines or move to the back for a shorties.
You can't help how tall you are.
And also, as someone who is in a long-term inter-height relationship, I'm 5'1", he's 6'2".
Look, I recognize that there is no perfect solution here, but I think that there is a solution.
It's not perfect, but that if we were just a little bit more mindful, and especially if concert venues were a little bit more mindful, there should be sections that are designated for people five, five or shorter.
And it can be in any part of the room, preferably closer to the front, maybe on the side or the balconies.
You get up, just like if you're going to on a roller coaster, you got to stand next to the thing.
I was going to say, there's like a you must be this tall to enter.
Yes, you must be this tall.
And you can choose if you are short to go in there or if you don't care.
But I think that there should be some sort of section for people who are short so that they can reasonably enjoy seeing the artists that they want to see.
The only way this is ever going to happen, Ayesha, is if you incentivize it for them.
Are you willing to pay more money for this option?
You know what?
I am in my 30s now, so yeah, I am.
What about like a free t-shirt, like Patreon style?
Like if you're tall you get nothing, but if you're short you get a free t-shirt and a token.
New Yorker.
I just think, look, I will pay the extra, like, however much for the extra leg room.
I sympathize with everyone who's tall and has to ride on these tiny little planes.
I just think that there needs to be some sort of way to offer, even if just a small handful of people and we're paying extra.
Whatever, it's fine.
But I also think that, like the amount of fees that are involved here, they should be just absorbed into the fees that they're already charging everyone.
Aisha, I once wrote a column.
Oh, I know.
About how tall people should be courteous towards shorter people at concerts.
And maybe move to the back of the room.
Maybe just make some arrangements.
I was actually hoping you would bring this up.
I personally, I'm 5'10".
My partner's 5'10".
We both have somewhat wide hair.
So we sometimes try to make arrangements.
For example, we're standing directly in front of people who are shorter than us.
I'm not sure I have ever gotten more negative feedback to a thing that I have written in my entire career.
I did read this article.
I came across it while I was doing a little research.
And you were so nice about it, Stephen.
And this is, again, why I say we shouldn't leave it up to the patrons to do this.
Like, I don't believe me.
But any patron who feels disadvantaged by this will lose their mind.
If they feel like they are having a right or a privilege taken away from them, oh my gosh.
I'd love to see the world try.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I back you, Aisha.
I guess we're all saying our heights now.
I'm 5'5 on a good day.
And my whole thing, though, is that you ever seen a big dog who thinks they're small?
You know, it's that situation of like the self-awareness needs to also maybe be there a little bit.
But I think if we unionize OK, if we talk to the right people, we can get this off the ground Aisha.
Yeah.
Look, you can take my money if that means that I'm going to be able to see Questlove's face from the audience and not have to look at someone's phone the whole time.
I'm rooting for you, buddy.
That's all I can say.
I realize the chances of this happening are maybe even more.
Writing that piece and reading the responses to that piece did not give me a ton of faith.
Candice, I think you got the best shot here.
There were many tentacles to your thesis.
But B, because I think, yeah, the rest of us, it's not going to happen.
Ours are pipe dreams, basically.
Ours are also grievances.
That's true.
This is true.
This is true.
But anyone who wants to get on board with this at me and anyone who doesn't, I don't want to hear from you.
I don't want to smoke like Steven got.
That'll work.
Well, those are our pop culture hills we will die on.
Grievances, you might say, for some of us.
And we want to know about the pop culture hill that you would die on.
Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH.
And that brings us to the end of our show.
Kansas Slim, Glenn Weldon, Stephen Thompson.
Thanks so much for being here and, you know, letting us know those things you feel so, so strongly about.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Rommel Wood and edited by Mike Katzeff.
Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy and Hello Come In provides our theme music.
Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
I'm Aisha Harris.
We'll see you all next time.
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