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I think that's a great reality that we're dealing with is that it's an age old problem from the dawn of time since we've had people congregating, that I'd have to have someone in front of someone behind is the reality that buy -in is required and the person responsible for communicating the buy -in is the leader.
In order to do that and I'll just pull off of Simon Sinek, providing the why.
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All right, everybody, we have a treat today.
we have doctor and professor Heiss Gibson, who's also a retired colonel in the military.
So, Professor Gibson, thank you for joining us today.
Really appreciate it.
No, thank you for having me.
I'm excited about the conversation.
Yes, likewise. So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Not a problem. And so I think the thread, the bomb on the front is service is a part of my background, having served the nation for a quarter of a century.
And then during had the opportunity to serve the next generation by teaching at West Point a couple of times.
Which leads me to what I'm doing now at Harvard Business School as a professor, teaching the world's amazing future leaders and then also some of the world's most amazing executives.
And so, service is a high point.
And then I really focus on what I would call operational leadership because I really care a lot about people, how we manage to think about talent development processes because everything's a process.
And big ideas are amazing, but if you don't have anyone who can actually do things we're kind of challenged.
And then understanding in the current environment because we're operating in a volatile, uncertain, complex, and a bigger environment, BUKA environment, technology integration is massively important.
Not only how do we integrate that what I would call the new hotness, but are our people internally ready for it and are our customers externally excited about it?
And so those Those are the threads that leaders have to deal with, which is why I call operational leadership.
It kind of encompasses all things.
Thank you for your service.
We're honored to have you.
And I think you are the perfect person to come in and talk about some of the tough conversations we have to have in the business world.
And just any time you have people congregating today, because right now, as you would say, the new hotness is artificial intelligence.
And for most companies, it's not a question of if it will be integrated.
this question of how, and people are rushing to do this.
But we've seen instances where it hasn't gone that well.
So I think what would be good for us to do is just set the stage when we think about AI integration into our organizations, what is the opportunity, but then also what are the challenges?
I think that's a great start, because there's a massive amount of opportunities with the integration of AI, and AI is not new.
I mean, we all have iPhones, AI can operate behind the scenes with Google maps and search engines for a while.
But now always have access to it.
And so I think the challenge is that the people inside the firms sometimes aren't ready for it and are apprehensive, meaning scared like, this is going to take my job or this is going to cause me to be irrelevant.
What I would suggest is that in those instances, organizations are tasked with ensuring that the people inside the organization are trained and developed to integrate with and understand the benefit of.
There's benefit to having just AI.
There's benefit to having just people.
But the optimal ability to optimize productivity is through the human machine interaction and partnership.
We saw the same thing in the military.
As we think about in the army, we have a, a platform called the A -864 Apache attack helicopter.
Well, the newest helicopter that came out about a decade ago, it was able to, not only fire long -range, it could connect with multiple unmanned aerial devices at the same time.
Which meant that pilots who already have a lot going on had to train to increase their own cognitive capacity to manage multiple systems while flying, while being in certain spaces all at the same time.
Well, if we take what's happening today, that's all that's happening.
Some of our teammates' cognitive capacity were just not there yet, so it takes training and development, we can get there.
It just takes a lot of work.
And so, all of us are becoming what I would say just really good prompt engineers, because we don't have to start with a blank canvas.
The downside is, if you're a bad prompt engineer, you're going to get bad output.
If you're scared of the system, you are going to be irrelevant, because you're not trying to understand what's going on.
And so, in acknowledging everything does not need AI.
I don't need an AI carpenter just yet.
don't need an AI plumber just yet.
So there are things that are kind of, you know, a tough line to technology, but most things aren't.
And so, and those who will win will be those who are not only able to leverage the technology, but then also able to develop others who are better with the technology.
This is powerful because what we're recognizing is, yes, it's coming, right?
And it's here, It's been here in different iterations, but now more people are recognizing the power and it's in everybody's hand with generative AI, whichever platform you decide to use.
And I think there is a lot of pressure on leaders to integrate it as fast as possible.
It feels like almost an arms race between these companies.
And so there's a tension within the decision -makers of the organizations to say, okay, well, I want this as fast as possible.
Let's do it, do it, do it.
But then the people are like, we are not prepared, nor do we like it.
Like you said, there's a healthy dose of fear and skepticism.
So I believe for a lot of people, there is the, hey, I don't like this.
And also if I could do something to kind of slow this down or frustrate this process, maybe I will.
And so there has to be a big challenge for the leaders, is getting people on board, but then also making sure that you can demystify it, make it less scary and help them to understand that this is the pathway to continued progress and security.
Because you need to adapt and evolve, or you won't be able to be part of the organization anymore because somebody who might have a lower top -level capacity but a willingness to utilize AI would ultimately be more valuable.
And so how do leaders take people on this journey so they can still move quickly and take advantage of the opportunity, but at the same time bring people along in a way that's actually sustainable?
I think that's a great reality that we're dealing with is that it's an age -old problem.
from the dawn of time since we've had people congregating and having to have someone in front and someone behind, is the reality that buy -in is required.
And the person responsible for communicating the buy -in is the leader.
In order to do that, and I'll just pull off of Simon Sinek providing the why.
And if leaders are unable to communicate the why in a succinct way, there's massive skepticism.
If the leader has not invested in developing trust in the organization, there's huge skepticism.
And so there's a lot of pre -work that's required by the leader before you just come out in all hands and say, we're doing X, follow me.
But do the people trust you?
Do they believe in you?
Have you illustrated the ability to have a huge amount of character?
Do you take care of people?
Do you operate in a way that inspires others?
All these are non -technical things in order to integrate a technical solution.
And I think there comes a point that we all know is that you can be smart, but being smart is not enough when running an organization.
That's a part of it, but that is not enough.
We all know a lot of really, really smart people who should just be in a corner.
We also know a lot of intellectual folks who are amazingly inspirational.
So I think that that problem of gaining buy -in is what's required when bringing a technology.
Because Because will it eliminate jobs, and positions, and roles?
Yes. Will it create new ones?
Yes. So just being able to help others understand those realities is really important.
I agree. And I think when leaders are listening to this podcast episode, they're going to say, okay, that makes sense.
I need to get trust in order to get buy in.
And then they might, at the same time, be realizing I should have started this process years ago because I should have been building trust with my team.
And I think especially when bright shiny new technologies are involved, we've focused so much on the tech that we forget about the people, we forget about the human element and that the power of just simple human connection and demonstrating that we care.
Because there's a lot of skepticism, like you said, when it comes to bigger businesses with AI, because you're saying, well, they're trying to eliminate me, right?
So there is a healthy dose of skepticism.
So, for the leader out here listening, who's saying, okay, I recognize that the reason I'm feeling a lot of friction and resistance is because I don't have trust and that's getting in the way of building, getting buy -in, what are some steps that they can take today that they can use to start to build true authentic trust?
I think building trust is a challenge, because trust is something that is a you can't feel it, you can't see it, but you know it when you have it.
And you also know it when you don't.
So, I think for leaders, it's really one, doing some self -reflection.
We all believe we're good people.
We all believe we're amazing, but we, we fail to ask a hard question because we probably don't want.
We don't want to know the answer.
How do others experience us?
Again, we believe we're amazing, but we really don't know how others experience us.
And that will tell you a lot.
And so, I think for leaders really doing some reflection on how they are, how they operate, How they need to adjust is first. And then, as they go out on their walkabouts and engage with people, do they notice themselves talking the most?
Or are they asking questions and learning?
They may know what's going on in the factory.
Let's say a factory context.
They may know exactly what's going on on the line.
But how about go down on the line and ask someone, hey, so what are you doing?
How do you do that?
How'd you learn how to do that?
What's the impact of what you're doing down the line?
So just having someone explain to them what's going on.
It's powerful when others are feeling that they're teaching the boss.
And sometimes they actually are, because if we're honest, most bosses don't know what's going on at the tactical level.
Many leaders will say, I know what's going on on the line.
There's only some organizations where that's actually true.
Mainly a factory context, a, sometimes a team's context, and definitely in a militaristic context.
In those areas, the leaders generally have grown up in the organization so they can actually say, I understand what's going on on the line.
Other than that, most people need to go and learn when they show up in the organization what's going on.
Are they willing to learn?
Are they willing to be vulnerable?
And are they willing to acknowledge, I don't know?
And so the best leaders can acknowledge when they don't know.
And that's a very powerful statement.
But let's go deeper into that, Ice, because I think a lot of people are terrified to admit that they don't know.
And so why is that such a powerful statement to make as a leader in really tough situations?
Well, I think as a leader, the best leaders, I'll just say, will always make this statement.
I always hire people better than me.
All really good leaders will say that same thing.
I have a lot of great mentors.
I've read one or two books.
I know a lot of great folks who are leaders, and every one of them, who are really good, make that specific statement.
They will always hire people who are better than them, and if they feel they're the smartest person in the room, they've moved to a new room.
Because that, one, allows vulnerability, there's an acknowledgement of what you don't know.
There's also an acknowledgement that you understand your personal gaps and it also acknowledge that you're willing to fill your gaps with someone who's better.
Which means when you're in rooms, because everyone is smart too, you're listening.
And so a group like that is probably going to come up with, on average, better solutions.
And it creates massive amounts of alignment.
Leaders who don't believe that will always hire people and be in situations where folks are not as good as them.
They're just like one step down.
in an effort for those people to need them to be inspired by them specifically who will always reinforce how their thoughts like that's great boss you know that's a great idea you're the most smart person smartest person in the world that's great for your ego but that might not be good for the firm i agree i agree and tell me if it's fair to wrap all of this up into one word it sounds like humility is what we need in these leaders absolutely the best leaders are those who come across that way.
And some of those leaders can be in a room and you don't even know they're there.
How many times you've seen a picture of Tim Cook or Bill Gates, like, in a coffee shop and no one knows who they are.
They're just like, you know, hanging out, you know?
So the abilities to kinda blend in, it's also a skill.
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Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
And I remember I saw that clip of Tim Cook and Odell last week, he was like invisible.
That was my knowing.
So which one was the billionaire?
Exactly, exactly. No, this is great.
And I also want to talk about something that you've mentioned before, which is the interpersonal deficit since COVID.
need and the fact that we have yet to recover.
I think this is fascinating and also it's almost like one of the biggest liabilities that we have, not just within our companies, but also within society as a whole.
We haven't recovered the skills that we lost during COVID.
So can you tell the listeners about that too?
Well, I think every generation has a thing, has an inflection point, a pivot point.
And And so I think for us, who all experienced the world shutting down in 2020, are going to feel this for the next 40 years, primarily because the kids who are in school are going to grow up.
And so they, and a lot of children were hit at a critical developmental point.
But not only kids, teenagers, young adults, folks in college, folks who want to do their first jobs, all hit this inflection point at the same time.
and then think about managers in their 30s or later, or leaders later, who had an idea of how work would be done and then had to pivot to this new way of work, and are now slinging it back to 2019, was return your office.
And so, and some of the gaps that we've experienced and this is all like a published and researched already, interpersonal interactions.
So the ability to communicate face to face.
The ability to have phone calls, the ability to share, the ability to walk into a room and not look on your phone, the ability to go on a, go to a restaurant to have dinner and put your phone away.
Because it's unfortunate that we have a group of folks who really don't know how to, what to do with undirected time.
Remember when you, before the internet, there was a time for the internet.
When you would go on a long ride across the country or to somebody's house for two hours, two hour drive, just sit in the back, just sit there and look outside and be with your thoughts.
That was normal. There's a generation now who are digital natives who've always run up with an iPhone or device who've always had something to take their time.
So they really don't know what to do with this.
That translates into the workforce and individuals unable to go into a room, engage with a leader and not test their phone.
So, I think leaders who are senior have to acknowledge that we're not going to go back, that we have folks in the force and our team who are going to operate that way and it's their job to help develop them around basic corporate behavior, you know.
It's similar to every industry has a uniform.
If we go out to California, you know, it's going to be hoodies and jeans and bands or something.
If we go into private equity, it's going to be a great know, some Chinos, Avast, and Cohans, or sneakers, if we go in the Goldman Sachs, it is still a suit.
I mean, I have many friends at Goldman.
So investment banking, it's still a suit.
Yeah. So every industry has its own uniform.
Well that's that's probably that's one.
Every industry has its own way of interacting.
So industry, certain norms that there's a two year gap.
And so if folks have to relearn what those norms are, but the reality is those norms were learned by observation in an office that disappeared for a while.
So I think now we will see if leaders will take on that mantle of reminding people about their cultural norms, their corporate culture, and what they expect.
Yeah, I agree. And I feel like that's one of the hidden opportunities hiding in plain sight.
It's just not as like sexy and interesting as artificial intelligence.
But it's so important because as technology improves, our ability to communicate has plummeted.
And it is one of the most challenging issues of our time.
And my belief is that the biggest challenge to humanity as a species is our inability to resolve conflict.
We're getting significantly worse.
And then when you think about the big issues of today, there are a lot of difficult conversations and negotiations that have to happen that are either not happening at all or happening at a very, very low level.
And so we're thinking about, as we go into these organizations, we need to be able to solve problems, we need to be dynamic, and the ability to communicate effectively is going to be part of that.
But then when you expand it and think at higher levels, when you're thinking about the government and the military, things like that, there are incredibly difficult conversations that need to happen.
And as the world gets more polarized, our ability to address those just goes down.
And for me, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on that particular issue, given your background in industry, government and military.
How are you seeing things and is there a path forward when it comes to that?
Well I think, one, the world is very dynamic, definitely polarized, but the polarization is amplified through the echo chambers of our own FYPs, our own 4U pages, what we search, how the algorithms are built based on what we look at.
It can take you down the rabbit holds whereas before there was a time where we all got the news at the same time at six o 'clock and 10 o 'clock.
We all got the news in the same place.
The local paper, or if you're really crazy, the New York Times.
It was delivered in your location.
Or the Wall Street Journal.
But now we all get news, and people were creating their own news.
So I think at least I would suggest in my personal view is that don't take things so personal.
is you can't have a hard conversation if you're gonna be triggered by someone who has a dissenting opinion.
We just call that a debate.
And so if you operate in fact and don't take it personal, you can have a much more fruitful conversation.
And so folks are able to acknowledge facts, listen, understand, and are mildly pliable, meaning they're not so affixed to their view that there's no other view.
there's a little bit you can actually reach a solid solution.
And so when we think about all of the challenges that we were dealing with in real time now that we've dealt with over the last 10 years, at least for me, I've always been able to operate in fact.
But that goes back to the education I learned at West Point, that there's a deep lot of history, a lot of civics, a lot of World Policy -type classes, and then reinforce the professional military education because as a at least a US United States military officer, you have to be exposed to a lot of stuff because you don't know what part of the globe you're going to be dropped in and you need to have some kind of context with the space that you're in.
It's not just do it our way.
You have to understand how the folks in Afghanistan operate, how someone in South Korea operates, how someone in the Indo -Pacific operates, how people in Europe, across all those countries, how folks on the continent, which a lot of people think after the model, it's like 52 different countries and Egypt.
On the continent, they're massively different from Sub -Saharan to the northern portion of the middle to the southern, east and west. That's a massive continent.
So, I think operating in fact is the most important part.
I think, unfortunately, we have, because of polarization, a lot of folks are operating in their own fact, which is bizarre to me personally, but they are.
And when presented with undeniable information, are not willing to change.
That's hard to debate, negotiate.
And so you all have to like put those folks in the corner and folks will notice you are willing to get on board. I agree.
And it's becoming more challenging because I think there's an increasing level of fragility when it comes to our ability to stand firm in a difficult conversation in the face of somebody who has the audacity to think differently.
And then I also think we're kind of transitioning to a post -fact post -truth world where there's so many voices is putting information into the world of differing levels of credibility and influence.
And then we also have, with artificial intelligence now, we used to be able to say, hey, I'll believe it when I see it.
And now you can see whatever you want with the ability to generate realistic images.
And so when we're in this situation, I know when we think about in military, we have sometimes the opposition might withhold information they don't want you to see, but then also sometimes they will provide you with false information to lead you astray.
And so when you think about it with your military lens, how do we as a nation, as a people, start to get to a point where we can align on what is real and what isn't so we can operate from a base of common understanding to build a foundation of an effective conversation?
Well, on that one, I think the interesting part is that we have cameras everywhere.
Everyone is a sensor.
Every person is a sensor, meaning we all have iPhones and our devices that can record. So, there's really not any sense in arguing like what is, because you can see it.
You can hear it. It was recorded.
It was videoed. And so, in that realm, I think we're sitting in a weird scenario where there's a portion of the population who is unrelenting and will only believe what they believe, even if it's against what is helpful to them and so again, I think that we're in an unfortunate place where we will be challenged to move them but there are those who are on the bubble and that's where the focus should should be aligned with those folks on the bubble because you can waste a lot of energy on folks who are not going to change and not to say you just need to dismiss them, but focus on those who are willing
to be part of the solution versus part of the problem.
And the reality is once that happens, everyone's going to benefit, even those who are on the extreme ends and that's okay.
Right. Wow, that's a great point.
That is a great point.
Before we wrap up, I want to finish up on the idea of not taking things personally, because now I'm recognizing we've had over 1500 episodes of the podcast and we have not explored that topic enough.
And I think you're the perfect person to talk about it.
Not I think that people would think the obvious example is the military background and the yes, quarter century of service.
That's 100 % the truth.
and then also your time playing D1 football, right?
Because you have to have some pretty direct conversations there.
And so, when it comes to not taking things personally, that's something that's very easy to say.
But how do we actually operationalize it so we can have a little bit more grit and resilience in these conversations, so we can actually listen to what the other person is saying and understand them rather than getting triggered and turning it into a debate?
I think we have to all acknowledge that we're all a combination of our own individual experiences, whatever those are.
You just don't wake up one day and say, you know what, I have grit.
Do you? Did you ever do anything really hard?
Hard is relative. One person's hard and someone else is really easy.
When I think about my own personal background, the folks who coached high schools in the late 80s, early 90s, if we really started to unpack it, there's going to be someone on that coaching staff who has some kind of Vietnam background, you can't move it.
And those folks' parents were part of World War II.
Their grandparents were World War I and into the Depression.
Some of them were born just after the Korean War.
So they're in a very different space and time, which translates to how they were communicated with, which means it translates to how they communicated with kids.
And so the way in which I was coached in high school would not fly today.
You can't do it. It's not bad.
You just can't do it.
You can get away with it in college a little bit, but you definitely can't do it in high school.
So, but that builds resilience.
When we think about, and then my parents always said, I remember my mom asking, telling me once, uh, when I said I couldn't do something or I couldn't go somewhere.
She said, well, why not?
Well, why not you? So it's almost, so this idea of why not, like you just give it a try so she didn't say take risks that's what she meant or or my father always saying put yourself in if you want to do well you need to you know you need to play with the a -players now we don't like to say there's a players and b players and but there is a varsity team and there is a junior varsity team so if you want to be on the varsity you need to work out with the varsity players and so at some point you have to so meaning you need to be around people elevate your game but in that elevation think about it folks
are better than and you're going to tell you you suck.
They're going to tell you you're not good.
And then you have to respond to that.
And it's not really, it's never about how you take it.
It's always about how you respond.
That's what you can control.
And so my idea of not taking it personal is that I have agency in how I always respond.
And so that has translated over years, even being in combat.
I've been in a lot of crisis in my life, in a time of crisis, those are the times when I'm the most calm.
Like you know, okay well, let me assess everything, let me deal with what's happening, and let me then move with things I can control.
Will I mess up? Yes.
Have I been told I've messed up?
Yes. But instead of taking it as a personal assault on my personal character, like you know, what can I learn from this?
You know, I really didn't mess that up.
How can I do this better?
So it's almost how you flip.
and think about feedback because we have a lot of people, a lot, who take everything they're told that's not their amazing personal.
That's a personal affront to them.
But actually, you did poorly.
You did not meet the standard. You did not do well relative to others.
Now the kicker is what do you do that information?
If you take it personal you go down a rabbit hole.
If you take it like an ability to improve, it's a very different thing.
But again, every individual has agency to determine how they respond.
We're seeing more and more, in the current day, many people from teenagers to adults who are taking things very personal, which means their ability to take feedback, develop, and grow is limited, which means that folks who are in positions of power will not spend time with them.
So, in effect, by taking things personal, you're actually cutting off the ability to be developed by someone who could really help you, you know when and you don't even realize it.
Right. Oh, this is good.
Heyez, I could just keep on talking to you about this, especially this topic.
It will turn into a rant at some point so we have to cut it off here.
But I appreciate you coming on the show, my friend.
Before you go, can you please just remind the listeners how they can get in touch with you and learn more from your work?
Well one, I'm very Google -able.
I'm one of the few Heyez Gipsons on the internet.
So that's like all my information.
Or you could They looked me up at the Mutugi .com.
So M -U -T -U -G -I .com, if they need help with anything, but I'm publishing stuff all the time via LinkedIn, via Harvard Business Publishing.
And so, happy to help in any way I can.
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
No problem. Awesome.
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