Ah, the forever-ago pool.
A place of relaxing waters and sparkly goggles.
Everything was peaceful until...
This pool isn't big enough for the both of us.
Sure as shoot it's not.
This here deep end is my territory.
You'll never make me stay in the shallow end.
That place is for the birds.
Tell you what, if you can make a bigger splash than me, you can come on over.
I've been splashing since I was in the womb.
This is no contest.
Then come on, put your floaties where your mouth is.
Them's fighting words.
I'm-a gonna jump in there and splash you all over.
I challenge you to a splash duel.
I thought you'd never ask.
Now, this is what I call the Double Dolo Dive.
Hoo-ha!
Oh, yeah?
This is what I call the Brooklyn Bridge.
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios.
I'm Joy Dolo.
And I'm Brooklyn.
Today, we are going to explore swimming.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
And the pretty.
And the frustrating.
And the joyful.
Brooklyn and I are both swimmers.
Isn't that right, Brooklyn?
Yes, I am.
Yes, you are.
How old were you when you learned how to swim?
My first lesson started when I was four years old at the YMCA in Brooklyn, New York.
Oh, wow.
Brooklyn, New York, and your name is Brooklyn?
Are you named after Brooklyn, New York?
Yes, I am.
Look at that.
If that was my name, my name would be Fridley, which is so cool.
But so you learned when you were four years old.
That was pretty young.
Do you remember like your swimming lessons?
Like were you scared or?
I actually have no memories of the swimming lessons.
My mom actually told me that I learned when I was four.
Oh, wow.
Would you say you have a favorite style of swimming?
At the YMCA, they teach us this thing called the ice cream scoops.
And we curved our hands and then we like scooped up the water like as we were like swimming.
It was called the ice cream scoop.
And so you make little like, like walrus claws is what I'm doing right now.
And you just kind of scoop it out.
And I'm assuming when you were at the YMCA, you were mostly in a pool, right?
Yes, I was.
But like, have you ever swam in like a lake or an ocean?
I've never swam in a lake or an ocean, no.
Oh, wow.
Well, you know, now is the time.
At some point, you should get out there.
It'd be pretty cool to try that out.
Well, I mean, like, if you count the beach, then yeah, but like...
Not the like actual like ocean.
Yeah, I do count the beach.
The beach is like a totally different atmosphere.
Well, yeah, I've been to the beach.
I swim in the beach.
So yeah.
That's pretty cool.
I like beaches too.
Those are my favorite.
Did you know I only learned how to swim five years ago?
Really?
Why?
Well, my first memory of swimming was around seven or eight.
I was at Camp Joy.
That was the name of the camp.
It's also my name.
I know it's confusing.
So anyway, the activity that day was pool time and I was terrified because I couldn't swim.
There were these girls there and they were laughing and splashing and having a great time.
And it looked like so much fun.
Then out of nowhere, one of the girls asked me if I wanted to jump in.
And I wanted to be friends with them so bad.
So I said, sure.
The next thing I remember was falling to the bottom of the pool, looking straight up, not knowing how to get out.
Luckily, there was a lifeguard who pulled me out just in time.
After that, I didn't swim at all.
Pools, lakes, the ocean, it didn't matter.
Every time I was near water, I would get nervous.
Also, I grew up in a mostly white area, so I was always the only Black person around the water and that made me self-conscious.
I was scared because I couldn't swim and embarrassed because I looked different than the other kids.
So I decided swimming just wasn't for me.
As I grew up, I realized this is a familiar story for African-Americans.
Over 60% have little or no swimming ability.
That's far less than any other groups.
But why?
So is this the bad or the ugly part?
This is the history part.
Today, we're going to explore how this trend came to be, and we'll talk about some difficult things.
But we're also going to hear some uplifting stories and meet someone helping teach more Black kids to swim.
Plus, I'll tell you how I conquered my fear and fell in love with water.
Or should I say, dived in love?
Great joke.
Pat on the back.
So, ready to go way back, Brooklyn?
Totally.
Let's go.
Cannonball!
Okay, so before we swim forward, let's backstroke to where it all began.
Much like landing a solid joke.
Swimming is a skill, and it's hard to pinpoint where this skill began.
We know it dates back at least 10,000 years ago.
There's a cave of old rock carvings in Egypt called...
The Cave of Swimmers.
The carvings show variations of swimming images that we now refer to as the doggy paddle or the backstroke.
Any Brooklyn bridges?
I don't think they're ready for a dive like that yet.
The Cave of Swimmers is important because it's located in a dry desert, and this told archaeologists that at some point long ago that area had plenty of water and people probably dolo-dived into it.
Makes sense.
If you lived by water, you used it.
Exactly.
Lakes, oceans, archipelagos.
You know what I mean?
A group of islands.
Archipelagos?
Yeah, it's a tongue swister.
And people swam all the time in the Americas, in the islands, and in Africa.
And Africans were especially good at swimming.
Like, ridiculously good.
That's because many Africans near the coast were brought up swimming.
As soon as they could walk, they would be taught how to swim, some as young as three years old.
These Africans would not only use the water for fun times.
They traveled on water from island to island to trade and share goods.
And a lot of them were expert divers, too.
They could go underwater and find conchs, fish, shells, and more.
These divers' lungs were used to the water.
Some could hold their breath for more than two minutes.
I can do that.
I give up.
In fact, African swimmers were so good, people around the world talked about it.
Right.
In 1455, a merchant named Alvise de Caramasto from Venice wrote, And then Robert Baker, who was English, said in a poem that when his boat capsized far away from the shore, he and his entire crew were saved by Africans.
Yes, I did write about that over 450 years ago.
Terrifying day, but made for a great poem.
And there's a story about a United States Marine being rescued in my homeland of Liberia, way back in 1843.
So Africans were kind of like lifeguards.
More on lifeguards in our next episode.
But yeah, it brings up the question.
How do you take a people who have been so, historically speaking, proficient at swimming and now they are six to ten times more likely to drown than white Americans?
That's Kevin Dawson.
He's a scholar of African-American swimming and history.
He's pointing out that, even though African-Americans descend from these amazing swimmers, over time that tradition was lost.
And get this, Kevin says white Americans, who tend to be more skilled at swimming today.
Many of them descend from Europeans who once feared the water.
Most europeans were fairly proficient swimmers, and then swimming goes into decline in europe during the middle ages, for a few reasons.
I mean, there was this theory that the body was made up of four humors solid liquid, hot and cold and the belief was that if you immersed yourself in water or any kind of one liquid, you'd get sick, and so that's what was causing dysentery cholera, bubonic plague.
Alfie is here.
The Venetian merchant from before.
I just wanted to echo Kevin.
I've seen the plague.
Ooh, nasty stuff.
If staying dry would keep me from getting sick like that, well, then dry it is.
Back then, they didn't know it was germs making you sick.
We talk about this in our baths and soap episode.
Go check it out.
But Kevin says this theory that water equals bad still pops up today.
People say, don't go out in the rain.
If your hair is wet after you get a shower, like you're going to get sick.
If you get your feet wet in the rain, you're going to get sick.
Yeah, my mom used to say that too.
Like always put on your boots and your raincoat if you're going out and it's raining.
And I even, like now, I don't even like to go outside in the rain, just because I'm like well, I'm going to get sick.
So you associate sickness with rain, which is interesting.
So yes, many of us Europeans shuddered at the idea of spending time splashing about in the water.
And when we came across Africans who had no fear of water and could swim with ease, we were like whoa amazing.
So Africans were historically joyful in the water for hundreds of years, but that started to change in the 15th century.
This is a period that history books call the Age of Exploration or the Age of Discovery.
It's when Europeans had boats that could travel across oceans.
But it wasn't about discovery or exploration for the people they visited.
For those groups, this age brought about some very dark things, like others taking over their land and even enslavement.
European colonizers enslaved indigenous people in the Americas and later did the same to Africans, who were kidnapped from their home countries and brought to the Americas, where they were forced to work and care for the lands.
Since these Europeans spent so much time at sea, they liked having Africans on their boats, who were strong swimmers.
They saw it as a valuable skill, but the European colonizers also looked down on the Africans and indigenous people for the way they swam.
The Europeans considered themselves more advanced than these groups with darker skin.
In other words, they were racist.
Many indigenous people in North America and Africans swim in a style that was more similar to what we now call the front crawl.
It was very fast and it caused some splashing.
This style of swimming wasn't considered the right way to swim by upper class hoity-toity English white males.
You rang?
No, I did not.
Well, I'm here.
Bartholomew J. Hoity Toity here.
Just in time to... I think we can handle it, Bart.
Clearly you need help.
Lucky for you, I am an accomplished pamphleteer.
Pamphlets were a popular way to communicate in the 18th century.
Kind of like a little newspaper and not as easy as posting on your Instagram.
With my self-help pamphlets, I could tell people what I think and influence what they think as well.
My pamphlet, Teaching People to Swim the Right Way, was such a hit, I thought I'd go for a series.
But your pamphlet said that swimming can only be done gracefully and smoothly, and any other way was animalistic.
You said anyone who wasn't doing the breaststroke was doing it wrong.
So you were basically ragging on the way Africans, Native Americans, Hawaiians and essentially, people that don't look like you swim.
Don't be mad.
By keeping the head above water and moving in even smooth strokes, the water will remain still and calm.
And if that's not sophisticated, I don't know what is.
But then you can't swim fast or dive deep or splash around.
Splashing is what animals do.
Okay, bye, Bart.
We're done here.
Wait!
I wanted to tell you about my new pamphlet, How to Host a Podcast the Right Way.
Ugh, he's so annoying.
But unfortunately, people listen to people like him.
So the way African swimmers swam was looked down on and, because of slavery, many Africans brought to America never learned about their ancestors and their amazing swimming skills.
In fact, many slave owners didn't want Black people swimming at all, because it could make it easier for them to escape their enslavers.
So they would keep them from learning how to do it.
In a way, it was kind of like white slave owners were trying to take away Africans' power.
So, during this time for Black Americans, the skill of swimming was drifting out to sea.
But we'll talk about how it comes back ashore in just a minute.
For now, why don't we take a break?
Let's relax on these inner tubes and play a little...
It's the game where we try to put things in order from oldest to newest.
And today's items are swim caps, swim fins, and swim goggles.
Okay, now we have to guess which one came first, which came second and which came most recently in history.
So Brooklyn, what do you think?
Okay, so swim, the fins.
The swim fins?
Yeah, I think, well...
I think that's in the middle.
I don't know yet.
Yeah, yeah.
I think goggles were like the first one because I feel like most people would like... I don't know.
I think that's the first thing that you think of when you're going swimming.
Yeah, it's like I want to see underwater.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So the goggles, then the pat, the... The fins.
Yeah, fins.
I don't know why I couldn't think of that.
Yeah, the swimming hands.
And then swim caps.
Yeah, I think swim caps came, like, I think that's most recent.
Yeah, why do you think?
I don't know.
I don't think that they cared that much about their hair at first.
And I feel like maybe later on they're like, oh, maybe we should, like, not get our hair wet.
That makes sense.
You know what's interesting, too, when you said goggles were first?
I was thinking that, too, because of, like, Glasses?
I don't know.
I feel like maybe all the eye stuff came at the same time.
I don't know.
Yeah, that's smart.
Yeah.
Okay, so we have goggles, swim fins, and swim caps.
Let's go with it.
I trust you.
Well, we'll hear the answers in just a bit.
We'll be right back.
The present is part of history too, because for people in the future, our right now will be their way back when.
So we're building a time capsule to show what our time is like.
And we want to know, what would you put in our time capsule?
Maybe it's something from your favorite sport or one of your hobbies.
Record yourself telling us about the item you have in mind and why you want to save it.
And send it to us at So Brooklyn, what would you put into the time capsule this week?
Um...
Does it have to relate to swimming?
No.
Okay, well, cheer.
You do cheer, too?
Yeah.
Oh, cool.
So what from cheer would you put into the time capsule for people to see?
Maybe they're going to change their hairstyle.
Instead of putting a high pony like they, put their hair in a bun or something like that.
Oh, yeah, so they change the hairstyle completely?
Yeah.
That'd be cool.
We'll hear what more listeners would put in the time capsule at the very end of the show, after the credits.
Send us your recording at foreverago.org slash contact.
We can't wait to hear what you come up with.
More Forever Go in just a moment.
Don't go anywhere.
All right, Brooklyn, let's reveal which of our first things first is actually the oldest.
Drum roll, please.
All right.
First up is, oh my goodness.
I'm just going to tell you, we got it right.
We got it completely right.
I've never won anything in my life, Brooklyn.
Wait, the whole thing?
We got the whole goggles, fins, caps.
We did it.
Oh my gosh.
We did it.
Everybody just pause wherever you are and take this in because this never happens.
So first up, swim goggles.
First known instance was in 14th century Persia, when pearl divers used polished tortoise shells to protect their eyes.
Early 20th century distant swimmers used modified motorcycle goggles.
And then second, the swim fins, first invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1717.
He put them on his hands instead of his feet though, and they were made of wood, which doesn't sound helpful.
All early swim fins had a strap to keep them on swimmers' feet.
It wasn't until 1948 that an Italian inventor, Luigi Ferraro, developed a fin that slips on like a shoe.
Smart guy.
And then last but not least is swim caps.
Made of rubber, starting in the late 1800s.
It gained popularity as a fashion item in the 1920s, when women started perming their hair, a chemical process that is ruined by water.
Now made of latex or silicone to help competitive swimmers reduce drag in the water.
So you were right, especially about the hair.
That's crazy.
You know, that's right.
When they started doing their hair, they started needing swim caps.
Yeah, we got it spot on.
Can you believe it?
And like, that was some really good guessing too.
What would you say surprised you the most?
Did any of this surprise you?
Um, maybe the fins.
I actually didn't, I wasn't sure about that one.
I didn't know if I was putting it in the right place at first.
I was like, um, so maybe the fins.
Yeah.
And it's interesting that it was made of wood at first and then he put it on his hands.
Yeah.
Could you imagine putting like swim fins on your hands right now?
Yeah, that'd be silly.
If you do it, take a picture and send it to forevergo.org.
Cool.
Cool.
We're back with Forever Ago.
I'm Joy.
And I'm Brooklyn.
And we're figuring out why it took me so long to learn to swim and why, for so long, so many African-Americans have struggled to learn this skill too.
So did anyone ever try to teach you to swim, Joy?
Like in school?
Oh, so many people.
But yeah, specifically, there was one lady, Mrs. Zinter, who was my PE teacher in middle school.
She was determined to teach me how to swim.
Swimming was a part of our class and in our predominantly white school I was one of the few kids who couldn't do it.
So on swim days Mrs Zinter would set me up in the shallow end and help just put my head under the water.
She kept trying to teach me to float, but I couldn't master it because I couldn't relax in the water.
I wouldn't let go of the edge of the pool long enough to splash, let alone learn the backstroke.
And if I did let go, I would flail and frantically search for the bottom of the pool with my feet.
This went on and on until swim lessons stopped.
I graduated from the class, but I still couldn't swim.
I should let Miss Inter know I got over my fear.
Yeah, I'm sure she'd love to hear that.
Hello?
Oh, hey.
I guess Partholomew J. Hoity Toity is still here.
Did you see my Brooklyn Bridge?
Uh, no, I was a little busy sharing something vulnerable.
Ooh, pamphlet idea.
Vulnerability.
The right way.
You know, Bart, we have a little more show to do, so can you just be quiet for a while?
Why, yes.
Stony silences are one of my specialties.
Oh, another idea.
I shall write a pamphlet.
How to be quiet the right way.
Anyway.
So when we left off, enslaved Africans were losing touch with their long tradition of swimming.
In fact, they were being taught to fear the water so their enslavers had more control over them.
This went on for far too long, but eventually Black Americans were freed.
After the Civil War, slavery became illegal and Black Americans had more rights, but they still were treated unfairly.
Right.
After the Civil War laws were passed that made it legally okay to keep Black and white people separate.
These were sometimes called Jim Crow laws, and it meant that Black people were kept out of a lot of places.
But in the late 1800s, they were still allowed in public bathing places.
Oh, excuse me.
Oh, excuse us.
We are in such a rush to get to the bathhouse.
Okay, does everyone have their things?
Yes, Mama.
I got my towel and my hairbrush.
Yes, honey.
I have my comb and my slippers.
Made special for my arthritis, hmm?
I got my rubber duck.
And I have my magazines.
I'm ready for a little me time.
Let's go to the bathhouse.
Wait, what's a bathhouse?
Oh, it's where you gather to bathe leisurely, of course.
Our family goes here all the time to bathe.
Of course, it's separated by gender, men over there and women over there.
These bathhouses were pretty common in American cities in the 1890s.
They're basically giant pools, but they were mostly for getting clean, not swimming.
And back then, poorer people of all races would use the bathhouse.
It was separated by gender, so men and women wouldn't use them together.
These were like the very beginning of the public pools we know today.
Pools?
Mama, look what I can do.
Mommy!
Mom!
Mom!
Mom!
Mommy!
Coming!
Good luck with your pee-pee.
Um, it's pools.
Swimming pools.
Yeah.
So families like this realized they could hang out in these bathhouses for fun, using the time to swim and socialize.
But the rules for these places changed around the 1920s.
Men and women could swim together, but because of racism, Black people were told they couldn't.
Over the next few decades, more pools were built, but the rules stayed pretty much the same.
No Black people allowed.
Or, if they were allowed, it would only be on certain days, like right before the pool was cleaned, when the water was at its dirtiest.
That's terrible.
I know.
And sometimes when Black people would try to use pools, they were bullied or even attacked.
Things could get really scary for Black people at pools.
It's no wonder that some Black families decided it was best to avoid swimming altogether.
So while white people used these pools to get better at swimming, most Black people didn't.
Over time, fewer and fewer picked up the skill.
Eventually, the rules changed, and today, everybody is allowed in public pools.
But all this history meant that people like me, we really didn't feel at home in the water.
But today, people are working to change that.
My name is Ebony Rosemond, and I'm the executive director of Black Kids Swim.
Ebony has been swimming her whole life, and so has her whole family.
When her daughter began to swim competitively, they didn't see a lot of people of color competing.
They thought it was quite odd.
We're talking about it in the car, my husband, my daughter and I And she just takes my phone and Googles the phrase Black kids swim.
And the returns were extremely negative.
Negative stuff like news of Black kids drowning or stories about how Black kids don't have the skill.
She started her organization to fix that.
Black Kids Swim is all about helping Black kids get the skills they need to have fun in water.
Now, if you Google that phrase, you'll get very, very different returns.
A lot of positivity, a lot of Black children excelling in competitive swimming, earning scholarships to swim at the collegiate level.
What would you say to a young person of color who wants to know why it's important to learn to swim?
We live in a really big world and sometimes we forget it because we go from home to school, to church, to our friend's house.
It's a huge world out there with all these oceans and places to go scuba diving and sailing.
And, as a mom, I want all kids to be able to experience every single fun thing in life that there is to do.
I don't ever want you to feel afraid and say no to an opportunity because you're scared.
So you need to learn how to swim so you don't miss out on the fun stuff.
I just thought of one last question.
What's your favorite swimming style?
Oh, by far the butterfly.
Butterfly.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I have tried.
My daughter has tried to teach me.
And I will continue to try.
I think it is the most like warrior-like stroke.
And it's so beautiful.
And I love watching my daughter do it.
When swimmers do it well, it is almost like dancing.
Water dancing.
I eventually learned to water dance myself.
For me, learning to swim wasn't just about learning to move in water.
It was about conquering my fear and trusting that I was going to be okay.
To encourage myself, I booked a trip to Hawaii.
That's a good prize for learning to swim, right?
So I signed up for the local YMCA and enlisted a coach I trusted with my life, my husband.
My husband and his family are all good swimmers, so I figured he'd be perfect.
Every morning at 6 a.m., we both arrived at the pools to practice.
At first, the smell of chlorine scared me.
Just getting into the pool was hard.
I remember walking down the little steps into the three-foot-deep section and my heart was just pounding.
I remember one time my husband told me to lay on my back and float, and I was like, for real?
Like, float?
I didn't think I could do it.
I tried to lay back to relax, but I kept thinking of Camp Joy, of laying at the bottom of the pool and I'd start to sink.
Then my husband put his arms underneath me.
He told me he would not let me drown, and with his help, I floated.
Soon, I was doing the doggy paddle, the breaststroke, and just plain jumping into the deep end.
I started thinking more about how much fun I was having, and my fear started fading away.
Six months later, we arrived at Waikiki Beach.
It was beautiful.
Big waves, sandy beaches, everyone wearing those lays of flour around their neck.
Okay, maybe I'm imagining that part still.
But I walked up to the water, and I was afraid, sure, but I knew I could do it.
With all my courage, I waded in, I let go, and I swam.
I swam in the Pacific Ocean, specifically the Pacific Ocean, and it felt amazing.
Now I can finally say that I have swam in oceans, lakes, and even pews.
So Brooklyn, we've learned that Africans once had a strong relationship with the water, but many lost that when they were enslaved and brought to the US.
And racism and Jim Crow laws kept Black people from feeling comfortable in the water long after slavery ended.
Yeah, but thanks to people like Ebony and groups like Black Kids Swim, more Black kids are getting in the water.
And speaking of, I think it's time.
For what?
Time for the biggest splash showdown this pool's ever seen.
I've been working on a new dive, partner, and it's a real doozy.
I'm ready for it.
It's the Brooklyn Dolo Double Dipper.
And it takes two to do this, Tango.
Let's go!
Yee-haw!
Whoo!
This episode was written by me, Joy Dolo, and produced by Tara Anderson, Sandin Totten and Molly Bloom, with additional production support from Kalaysha Toddy, Maynica Wilhelm and Anna Goldfield.
Sound design by Eduardo Perez.
Theme music by Mark Sanchez.
Beth Pearlman is our executive producer.
Voice acting by Brant Miller, Lulu, and Alex Wright.
We had engineering help from Jess Berg and Rachel Brees.
The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavadi, Joanne Griffith, and Alex Schaffert.
Special thanks to Tracy and Miguel Malcolm.
Thanks, Graham, for teaching me how to swim.
And thanks to my family for putting up with all my talk about swimming.
Now let's see what we'll be adding to the time capsule this week.
Hello, my name is Paloma and I'm from Oklahoma.
I would like to add to the time capsule is phones and iPads.
There might not be phones and iPads in the future.
Maybe they use holograms or other gadgets.
Hello, Forever Girl.
I'm Ronan.
I'm nine years old and I'm from Los Angeles, California.
If I could put something in the time capsule well, I'd probably put in something like some ice cream.
I don't know how that wouldn't melt, because I bet like in the future, ice cream will be like just popped up.
Like you can just press a button and ice cream just pops up in your cone or something.
Bye.
You guys are awesome.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks to Ronan and Paloma for those fabulous ideas.
If you have an idea of what you'd like to add to the time capsule, send it to us at foreveragoorg contact.
Your answer could be played on a future episode.
Brooklyn and I will be back next week with a history of lifeguarding.
See you next time.
And thanks for listening.
